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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tecknohed on October 30, 2007, at 12:06:45
I just been to Holland & Barrett (UK) to pick up some vits & noticed they had a half price sale on so I thought "what the hell" & bought some Taurine & Magnesium. I have some questions...
Magnesium:
I had a choice of Amino Acid Chelate or Citrate form. Lady in shop said Chelated form is most absorbable, so I got that one. Was she right? I always thought citrate minerals were better.
Should I take it with or without food? How much should I take to notice a difference (if any)? How long should it take to work?
Your experiences with Magnesium please!Taurine:
I have standard L-Taurine 500mg tabs. I'm hoping for some anxiolytic effect (& maybe lower my benzo dose as a result) & maybe a mood stabilizing effect too. Is this realistic? Also, same questions as Magnesium: How much should I take? With or without food? How long will it take? Your experiences please, etc...Just so you know, I also take 3mg/day clonazepam (Klonopin - a benzo) & 40mg/day isocarboxazid (Marplan - an MAOI antidepressant). I have Social Phobia (as part of Avoidant Personality Disorder) with associated depression. I also have some OCD symptoms & Hypersomnia.
My anxiety is pretty well controlled with the clonazepam. I've only been on Marplan for 9 days but it is already starting to help my mood, though I'm still waiting to feel motivated (if that will ever happen!). My mood is also fluctuating slightly (it normally does this) though I do not consider myself Bipolar.Thankyou in advance!
Posted by bleauberry on October 30, 2007, at 20:33:35
In reply to Magnesium + Taurine questions..., posted by tecknohed on October 30, 2007, at 12:06:45
I saw an awesome article on the web yesterday on magnesium and taurine, focusing on the magnesium taurate form of magnesium chelate. The potential benefits in all aspects of your physical and mental health are huge. As can be evidenced in searching archives though, these supplements don't always provide the miracles we hope for. But, if you were to pick any two supplements at random that had a massive potential to improve your life, you picked two at the top of the list.
Magnesium is tricky. Some people only respond well to one form or another, and it is different for everyone. One lady tried them all with no luck, only to discover it was magnesium malate that worked great for her. For another it was mg glycinate. For another it was mg taurate. Some people can't tolerate much oral magnesium but find great benefits in taking epsom salt baths a few times a week where the magnesium absorbs readily through the skin.
Taurine is an unsung hero in the amino acids. We don't hear much about it, but it actually is real good for lots of things such as brain, heart, liver, gut, and digestion. There isn't enough in food we eat and many of us just don't make enough of it on our own.
As with all things, our biochemistries are different and everything requires trial and error.
Posted by tecknohed on October 30, 2007, at 20:52:28
In reply to Re: Magnesium + Taurine questions..., posted by bleauberry on October 30, 2007, at 20:33:35
Thanks very much for your input! I suspect I'm pretty low on magnesium, particularly as my diet has been rather poor lately, as has my appetite. So I decided to start with the magnesium today 300mg. See how that goes then I might try the citrate form next time so I can compare.
I've decided to leave the Taurine until I settle on the Marplan. Too many things at once can make it confusing when trying to tell which is doing what, if you know what I mean.
Posted by Jamal Spelling on October 31, 2007, at 15:42:05
In reply to Re: Magnesium + Taurine questions... » bleauberry, posted by tecknohed on October 30, 2007, at 20:52:28
I take magnesium glycinate. The instructions on the bottle say that it needs an acidic environment in order to be properly metabolised and hence should be taken between meals on an empty stomach.
Some people complain that magnesium sedates them. About 3 weeks into using magnesium supplements myself, I think I am beginning to suffer that side-effect. So now I skip some days and other days I only take half. It seems to have worked. In fact, on Monday I decided to skip all my supplements, and felt much more energetic. Perhaps the body needs a break from these substances once in a while.
Jamal
Posted by tecknohed on October 31, 2007, at 16:56:31
In reply to Re: Magnesium + Taurine questions... » tecknohed, posted by Jamal Spelling on October 31, 2007, at 15:42:05
> I take magnesium glycinate. The instructions on the bottle say that it needs an acidic environment in order to be properly metabolised and hence should be taken between meals on an empty stomach.
Your statement dosen't quite make sense. The stomach is at its most acidic whilst food is present, especially protien which needs hydrochloric acid to break it down, hence why some nutritionists recommend betain hydrochloride to aid digestion.
From what I understand, the acid helps bind minerals to organic molecules (ie. amino acids) and so being more bioavailable to the body (more absorbable). The reason I asked 'with or without food' was because I have the amino acid chelate form which obviously needs no acid for binding (its already bound) & wondered if, because of this, I could take it away from meals, especially as there would be less competition for absorption with other minerals.
But I agree with the rest of what you say. I too have had 'relief' from abstaining from supplements, particularly high dose B complex.
I'm going to stick to 300mg/day magnesium & see how I feel. In fact my meds have just bounced into action with some strength, the day after I started magnesium. Coincidence? Who knows.
Thanks for your contribution.
teck
Posted by bleauberry on November 3, 2007, at 19:34:28
In reply to Magnesium + Taurine questions..., posted by tecknohed on October 30, 2007, at 12:06:45
You want the magnesium supplement to be absorbed in your stomach, not later in the intestines. When in the intestines, much of it is wasted in feeding the bad bacteria there who gobble it up like ice cream, multiply themselves, and worsen your overall health. If you suspect absorption prooblems, it can be taken with apple cider vinegar or HCL. If you get diarrhea from it, it means too much of it did indeed get to the intestines.
For maximum absorption, if you aren't too finnicky about weird tastes, crush the tablet in your mouth and let it dissolve a few minutes before swallowing.
Other than that, always use a capsule form. Never a tablet. If the stomach isn't working 100%, and in most people with any mental or physical ailment it isn't, pills are too likely to pass through the stomach and into the intestines not full broken down, and sometimes not broken down at all. I know one person who discovered entire pills coming out in the stool, but got amazing results when switched to capsules.
As others have noted, periodic breaks from supplements is I think a good thing. I mean, we want to correct a deficiency, but we do not want to create an overabundance. Balance is the goal, not too little and not too much. Maybe over time some of these supplements build up to higher levels than we anticipated. Slower liver function maybe. Slower intestinal function. Who knows. Everywhere I read it says B vitamins are soluble and quickly pass in the urine and because of that are not toxic in high doses. In my experience, that is not true. I have gotten very toxic results from taking medium or high dose B's just once a day for a couple weeks. I know two other people who had adverse neuromuscular reactions to B vitamins after a couple weeks of high doses. I'm sure it is the same with any supplement. Too much magnesium will throw calcium out of whack, and who knows what else. We want what it takes for the body to function, or we want what it takes to overcome some logjam in our biochemistry, but we don't want to go beyhond that. Just my experience.
Posted by tecknohed on November 3, 2007, at 20:01:40
In reply to Re: Magnesium + Taurine questions..., posted by bleauberry on November 3, 2007, at 19:34:28
Thanks for the advice bleauberry!
I do have tablet form of magnesium so I will start chewing them & swollowing them on an empty stomache.
Posted by nolvas on November 5, 2007, at 6:33:03
In reply to Re: Magnesium + Taurine questions... » bleauberry, posted by tecknohed on November 3, 2007, at 20:01:40
The body cannot take a break from essential minerals and nutrients. However if your diet occasionally or often supplies them in adequate dosage then extra supplementation may cause adverse effects. It's all trial and error though, if taking a break from supplementation for one day a week or more works for you then it works for you :)
I use magnesium and taurine occasionally, because often I don't have anything else to try and combat the anxiety, it's a case of something is better than nothing even if really it doesn't have much or any effect for me. Psychology plays a huge part in supplementation. Try this next time, cover over the label on your magnesium or Taurine with a label that says CALM or CALMING then take the usual dosage and see how you feel.
Posted by Molitor on November 26, 2007, at 15:09:11
In reply to Magnesium + Taurine questions..., posted by tecknohed on October 30, 2007, at 11:06:45
Whenever I take anything with raw Taurine in it, it causes *extreme* lethargy the following day.
I already have major energy problems, and when I was on Nardil I was drinking energy drinks like RockStar. Love the taste, and although I got a decent boost from the Caffeine, the next day I would feel wiped out... Time for another RockStar! (as if I needed another reason to consume something sugary on Nardil).
Because the lethargy hit the next day, I never linked it the RockStar until I ordered some bulk taurine powder, and took it raw in 1-2 gram dosages. The next day lethargy was so great I couldn't get off the couch. It wasn't a particularly pleasant feeling like a benzo, it was more flu-like. Ugh.
You might like the stuff, but I thought I'd give the heads up, if you feel bad one day, you might not associate with something innocent you took the day before.
The one natural thing I've found to be truly useful for anxiety is Theanine, which IMHO rivals a low dose of a benzo, but isn't physically sedating. (I usually take 500mgs/dose) Bulk Nutrition sells it in bulk (powder) on their site for 20 grams for $10. If you really like Taurine, you can grab 1000 grams for $20. ;) Neither have much of a taste, so they're easy to wash down.
Posted by tecknohed on November 26, 2007, at 16:30:24
In reply to Watch out for next-day Taurine lethargy . » tecknohed, posted by Molitor on November 26, 2007, at 15:09:11
> Whenever I take anything with raw Taurine in it, it causes *extreme* lethargy the following day.
>
> I already have major energy problems, and when I was on Nardil I was drinking energy drinks like RockStar. Love the taste, and although I got a decent boost from the Caffeine, the next day I would feel wiped out... Time for another RockStar! (as if I needed another reason to consume something sugary on Nardil).
>
> Because the lethargy hit the next day, I never linked it the RockStar until I ordered some bulk taurine powder, and took it raw in 1-2 gram dosages. The next day lethargy was so great I couldn't get off the couch. It wasn't a particularly pleasant feeling like a benzo, it was more flu-like. Ugh.
>
> You might like the stuff, but I thought I'd give the heads up, if you feel bad one day, you might not associate with something innocent you took the day before.
>
> The one natural thing I've found to be truly useful for anxiety is Theanine, which IMHO rivals a low dose of a benzo, but isn't physically sedating. (I usually take 500mgs/dose) Bulk Nutrition sells it in bulk (powder) on their site for 20 grams for $10. If you really like Taurine, you can grab 1000 grams for $20. ;) Neither have much of a taste, so they're easy to wash down.
>
>Yeah I totally relate to the taurine lethergy! Took it for 2 days at only 500mg/day & then binned the stuff. YUCK! I'll never understand why they put it in energy drinks, unless of course its to make you feel so tired the next day that you go out & buy more of the energy drink!!!
I like Bulk Nutrition too (I normally use 1Fast400 for cheaper UK p&p but they're all the same company I think) - I buy my Idebenone (excellent stuff!) & Vinpocetine (also very good) from them. I may give Theanine a try, especially at that price. I'm always looking for ways to reduce my benzo use without loosing efficacy.
Thanks
teck
Posted by Molitor on November 27, 2007, at 0:04:42
In reply to Re: Watch out for next-day Taurine lethargy . » Molitor, posted by tecknohed on November 26, 2007, at 16:30:24
I use 1fast400 too, I just always say Bulk Nutrition for some reason.
I've been taking their Idebenone for a month or so now (looks about like dry powdered carrots?), and I can't say I've noticed anything. Taking larger single doses doesn't do anything noticable, either. But it might be doing me good over time, so I'm going to keep taking it, as it doesn't seem to have any negatives.
The only nutrient that I feel gives me a boost, when taken over the course of a few days, is ALCAR (Actyl-L-Carnitine), and the taste is pure tart. Pretty cheap stuff, too. Supposed to be miraculously good for you, but then, so is Taurine. ;)
I'm looking for things that are stimulating/energizing. MAOIs just cause me no end of fatigue, weekness, sleepiness, etc. Some of the other things I've tried:
Rhodiola Rosea - Couldn't tell anything, and I stopped because I wasn't sure how it interacts with Parnate.
Piracetam - If anything, made me more depressed. Not bad-mood depressed, but lack of emotion depressed. Since that's a large part of my problem, it's a bad mix. A lot of people say Piracetam is miraculous for improving all sorts of neural function, especially the people who sell it. ;)
Phenibut - Gives your GABAnergic system a Deep Swedish Massage. It's relaxing, and makes you feel good, but it builds tolerance within, literally, just a couple of uses. And it never works as good again (which makes you wonder what it does to you). If you use it more than a few times and increase the dose, you'll have trouble stopping it. The effects are much stronger than most other "supplements", and I consider it a drug can be at last as habituating as benzos for some people. This falls into the "I can't believe this is legal" dept. I'd tell anyone to stay away, or at least Google Phenibut Addiction.
Glucuronolactone - Another thing in energy drinks, gives a slight boost, kinda, maybe. Kinda makes me feel better, I think. I take a couple grams when I feel really crummy.
Sulbutiamine - The absolutely worst tasting stuff I've ever put on tongue, bar none. The flavor burrows into your tongue and lasts a loooong time, too. It's a thiamine precursor sold under the brand "Arcalion", supposedly as an "anti-asthenic". Zero effect, and my tastebuds are still hate me.
I haven't tried their Vinpocetine, as I wasn't sure how that would mix with Parnate. Although I once used a mix of Vinpocetine and Huperzine that I liked, but I gave that up for the same reason.
Posted by tecknohed on November 27, 2007, at 5:47:56
In reply to Re: Watch out for next-day Taurine lethargy . » tecknohed, posted by Molitor on November 27, 2007, at 0:04:42
Hi
Another thing to point out about Bulk Nutrition is that its OWN site doesn't sell exactly the same product as 1Fast400 (nor the other links at the bottom of thier page). For example, you wont find Vinpocetine at Bulk Nutrition, but you'll find it at 1Fast400. But they must be the same company as whenever I buy from 1Fast400 the order comformation email comes from Bulk Nutrion. ODD!
What meds are you on by the way Molitor? Sorry, I forgot.
Vinpocetine really helps clear the head. In fact today I'm going from 5mg to 10mg hoping to get a better pesponce (starting at 10mg gave me headaches so I dropped to 5mg for a while - let my head get used to it first). It is actually quite stimulating, not in a typical psych-stim way (no effect on body energy) but definitely enhances mind energy (focus, imagination, creativity & writing).
So Actyl-L-Carnitine gives a good 'physical' boost too? Might try that one. I'm always looking to increase my energy levels safely (I'm on MAOIs) & without building tolerance.
I think Idebenone works for some, not for others. One thing you can be sure of though is that it WILL be doing your brain plenty of good & is a VERY powerfull antioxidant. It would also work in synergy with most other nootropics. I take 300mg/day. Incidently, I've only taken it with Nardil & Marplan, & its worked both times with these.
Take care,
teck
Posted by Molitor on November 27, 2007, at 7:08:13
In reply to Re: Watch out for next-day Taurine lethargy . » Molitor, posted by tecknohed on November 27, 2007, at 5:47:56
I'm currently on Parnate, probably going to be adding Adderall within a month. (I was actually going to start Marplan (never taken that before), but I couldn't get it, and I was desperate to start something after a months of Cymbalta (the worst AD I've ever taken in recent memory), then nortriptyline plus Adderall. A little better, but I was groggy and disoriented.)
I've only had significant success with Nardil or Parnate, but the side-effects get worse over time as the drugs themselves lose a lot of effectiveness. So I tend to periodically switch to a non-MAOI, fail miserably (been doing this for 20 years, I guess I'll never learn), and then switch to another MAOI (except I can't afford EMSAM). That was one reason I was looking forward to Marplan, but alas, it was not to be this time around.
So yeah, Parnate now 30mg, started maybe 5 weeks ago.
I didn't know BN and 1fast400 had different things, but I know in the past the return address of some of my orders have been BN, and some of the products have had BN labels on them.
Why did you discontinue Nardil?
- Moli
Posted by tecknohed on November 27, 2007, at 7:56:40
In reply to Re: Watch out for next-day Taurine lethargy . » tecknohed, posted by Molitor on November 27, 2007, at 7:08:13
> Why did you discontinue Nardil?
>
> - Moli
>Lost it's efficacy. Never fully pooped out but I lost all energy & augmentations pooped out in the end (Modafinil & Bupropion). I know it never fully pooped out because when I did stop it my SP came back with a vengance! But it just wasn't good enough. Plus I started having complications - one of which was numb fingers. I put this down to B6 deficiency at first (caused by Nardil) & B6 supplement did help for a long time. But after a while the numbness came back.
I had tried Marplan before but found it too activating on its own. But after I quit Nardil I was still taking Klonopin & wondered if Klonopin + Marplan would be similar to Nardil. And I was right! :)
Wonder how long it will last......Whatever happens I intend to keep on going with this one & if that means treating AGGRESSIVELY then thats what I'll do! I'll even add Lithium if I have to.
teck
Posted by Molitor on November 28, 2007, at 20:44:37
In reply to Re: Watch out for next-day Taurine lethargy . » Molitor, posted by tecknohed on November 27, 2007, at 7:56:40
> > Why did you discontinue Nardil?
> >
> > - Moli
> >
>
> Lost it's efficacy. Never fully pooped out but I lost all energy & augmentations pooped out in the end (Modafinil & Bupropion). I know it never fully pooped out because when I did stop it my SP came back with a vengance! But it just wasn't good enough. Plus I started having complications - one of which was numb fingers. I put this down to B6 deficiency at first (caused by Nardil) & B6 supplement did help for a long time. But after a while the numbness came back.
>
> I had tried Marplan before but found it too activating on its own. But after I quit Nardil I was still taking Klonopin & wondered if Klonopin + Marplan would be similar to Nardil. And I was right! :)
>
> Wonder how long it will last......Whatever happens I intend to keep on going with this one & if that means treating AGGRESSIVELY then thats what I'll do! I'll even add Lithium if I have to.
>
> teckThis sounds a lot like my experience with Nardil. I didn't get numbness the most recent time I was on it, but before that I got some. It would start in my little finger, then progress to my ring finger, then my middle finger... If I'd stop what I was doing and shake out my hands, after a while it would go away. If I didn't stop, it would start hurting all the up my arm -- a LOT -- like I hit my funny bone really hard. That was a while back, I'd forgotten about that.
And yeah, I thought Nardil had pooped-out a lot more than it had when I quit, because all that old social anxiety just cames right back. It's so frustrating. But the fatigue/weakness/sleepiness on Nardil was just beyond absurd. It doesn't really matter how socially phobic you are if you sleep 18-20 hours a day, and that's not even including naps. ;)
Parnate helps a lot with social anxiety, but it doesn't have that magic Nardil pro-social effect. Does Marplan have any pro-social benefit?
-Moli
Posted by tecknohed on November 28, 2007, at 21:01:04
In reply to Re: Watch out for next-day Taurine lethargy ., posted by Molitor on November 28, 2007, at 20:44:37
>Does Marplan have any pro-social benefit?
>
> -Moli
>With Klonopin it does yes. On its own its quite stimulating, but slightly too much anxiety, at least at first. But with the Klonopin I just can't stop chatting when I'm with my friends! (thankfully I have a few)
By the way, I ordered some Acetyl-L-Carnitine so I'm looking forward to that. Hopefully I can get some sort of lasting energy boost from it. What do you reckon, is that realistic? I only need a small boost as some days I just can't get going even though my mood is fine, if you know what I mean? I imagine it may well have some synergy with my Idebenone & Vinpocetine too - I should be hyper brainy! LOL :)
And how much Acetyl-L-Carnitine should I take to feel its effects do you think?
teck
Posted by Molitor on November 29, 2007, at 9:56:25
In reply to Re: Watch out for next-day Taurine lethargy . » Molitor, posted by tecknohed on November 28, 2007, at 21:01:04
That's good to hear about Marplan. Sounds like it would be worth a try, but I'll have to plan ahead and track down a pharmacy that can get it. I just didn't have the mental/physical energy/motivation to deal with all that before I started the Parnate, even though that sounds like a trivial thing. I guess if I did, I wouldn't need the Parnate in the first place...
I'll be interested to hear how you progress on it. I hope it's not like Nardil, where you end up Chasing the Nardil Dragon trying get back the effects you know it's capable of...
Anyway, I take a small scoop (I think it's a 1/3 tsp. I got with something else) of acetyl L-carnitine (ALCAR), 3 times a day. This would be about 500mg per dose, or about 1500mg a day. It might be a little more, because it clumps like slushy snow and doesn't measure like a free powder. I think it absorbs moisture from the air and liquifies, so keep it tightly closed.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect some positive effect from ALCAR. But it's not a Provigil effect, it's more like: "I don't feel nearly as wiped-out today as I did this time last week."
I've ordered some propionyl L-carnitine (PLCAR), and I'm going to switch to that to see how it compares to ALCAR. The one study shows they both affect fatigue differently, but are less effective when combined. Here's some PubMed abstracts on ALCAR/PLCAR:
http://tinyurl.com/35dqf7
http://tinyurl.com/36ozpp
http://tinyurl.com/33e4wd
http://tinyurl.com/2vtk7cAs always, you have to be careful about drawing conclusions on physically healthy people from small studies of people with MS or CFS. But at least it's a starting point if you have to experiment on your own. I'll be interested to hear you experiences with it.
-Moli
Posted by tecknohed on December 2, 2007, at 18:06:26
In reply to Re: Watch out for next-day Taurine lethargy . » tecknohed, posted by Molitor on November 29, 2007, at 9:56:25
> That's good to hear about Marplan. Sounds like it would be worth a try, but I'll have to plan ahead and track down a pharmacy that can get it. I just didn't have the mental/physical energy/motivation to deal with all that before I started the Parnate, even though that sounds like a trivial thing. I guess if I did, I wouldn't need the Parnate in the first place...
>
> I'll be interested to hear how you progress on it. I hope it's not like Nardil, where you end up Chasing the Nardil Dragon trying get back the effects you know it's capable of...No, not like Nardil's initial effects. Combined with the Klonopin it's anxiolytic effects are just like Nardil's - very powerfull, but theres little or no euphoria like the first few months of Nardil can give.
> Anyway, I take a small scoop (I think it's a 1/3 tsp. I got with something else) of acetyl L-carnitine (ALCAR), 3 times a day. This would be about 500mg per dose, or about 1500mg a day. It might be a little more, because it clumps like slushy snow and doesn't measure like a free powder. I think it absorbs moisture from the air and liquifies, so keep it tightly closed.Sounds similar to idebenone's texture & with idebenone 1/4 tsp = 420mg. Still, I have digital scales weighing in 0.01g divisions, so when it arrives I'll weigh 1/3 tsp & let you know what it weighs.
> I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect some positive effect from ALCAR. But it's not a Provigil effect, it's more like: "I don't feel nearly as wiped-out today as I did this time last week."Exactly what I'm hoping for! :)
> I've ordered some propionyl L-carnitine (PLCAR), and I'm going to switch to that to see how it compares to ALCAR. The one study shows they both affect fatigue differently, but are less effective when combined. Here's some PubMed abstracts on ALCAR/PLCAR:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/35dqf7
> http://tinyurl.com/36ozpp
> http://tinyurl.com/33e4wd
> http://tinyurl.com/2vtk7c
>
> As always, you have to be careful about drawing conclusions on physically healthy people from small studies of people with MS or CFS. But at least it's a starting point if you have to experiment on your own. I'll be interested to hear you experiences with it.
>
> -Moli
>Likewise, let me know how ALCAR & PLCAR compare. And thanks for the links!
teck
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