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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 28. Go back in thread:
Posted by Jasmineneroli on October 28, 2004, at 20:37:55
In reply to Re: Bowel toxins,enzyme peptide conversion of aminos? » Jasmineneroli, posted by raybakes on October 27, 2004, at 4:51:51
Thanks Ray:
The serotonin in the gut, I already knew and it makes a lot of sense, in terms of enzymatic digestion/absorption etc. and the effect on levels of this neuro-hormone.
I didn't know anything about enzymes regulating neurotransmitters, however, another line of research to be done!!!!
I always feel sceptical when someone who has a massive sudden turn around in symptoms of a major mood disorder, after taking a herbal cocktail, for some reason. In this person's case, I think a lot of it is simply the psychological "desire" for it to work - a placebo. She's trying to prove to her Psych doc that it will resolve all her problems. She's been on the stuff for 11 weeks, but only completely off her last tapered med (Wellbutrin) for 2 weeks!!!
I'm going to search more into the "electrical" activity later and will post back.
Thanks for your reply.
Jas
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 29, 2004, at 8:27:09
In reply to Bowel toxins,enzyme peptide conversion of aminos?, posted by Jasmineneroli on October 27, 2004, at 1:15:52
> Hi all:
> Help! Very sceptical!I'm very glad you're taking that stance.
> An acquaintance of mine, who has bipolar disorder (mostly highly depressive, rare manic periods), recently visited me, claiming to be off all pharmaceuticals and feeling fabulous!. She did look good too!
> She attributes this massive improvement to being off her drugs and taking various herbal cocktails.Or, being very susceptible to the placebo effect.
> Does anyone here know anything about the validity of the theory behind the products she takes?I'll certainly be happy to express my opinion.
> A system of using herbs and botanicals to detoxify the body.
This whole detox concept is entirely without merit.
> Claiming that bowel toxemia causes inadequate absorption of food and toxins to build up in the body, including the brain, resulting in mental health disorders, amongst other things.
In simple terms, "bowel toxemia" can be invoked as an explanation for e.g. food poisoning. How are the toxic principles removed? Vomiting and diarrhea. There is absolutely no evidence for the need to detoxify the gut, absent the ingestion of a toxic agent, or infection by a pathological organism.
> Also using enzymes to "pre-digest" everything consumed, so that bowel toxins don't build up.
Ingestion of enzymes may in fact be a helpful practise, but that does not prove the theory. It is irrelevant to the concept of bowel toxins.
> The enzymes purportedly aid the peptide/polypeptide conversion of tyrosine, tryptophan, phenylaline and methonine.
??? I know you're just presenting the ideas you were given, but? Proteins are peptides. Polypeptide is an irrelevant term, meant to convey a greater scientific merit than is warranted. Peptides are digested via a very simple process, called hydrolysis (latin root, meaning cleavage by water). Hydrolysis is greatly enhanced by acid (stomach acid is hydrochloric acid, one of the most powerful there is). It is further enhanced by enzymes naturally present in the stomach. These natural processes (which Mother Nature has fine tuned for millions of years) may actually be helped a little bit by the consumption of plant enzymes. The point is to produce free amino acids, as much as is possible. They're not converted, in any sense of the word. They are liberated (thus the common use of the word "free"). An alternative is that the protein is digested.
> It is claimed that if this doesn't happen, these aminos turn toxic.....Tyrosine into Phenol, Tryptophan into Indole, Tyramine from Tyrosine (a putrefactive product), with other bacterial putrefaction on undigested amino acids.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Normal digestion produces free amino acids quite naturally (if that is what they're worried about), but....The only way these individual aminos could be metabolized to these specifiec toxins is if THEY ARE ALREADY FREE AMINO ACIDS. I would have used italics, but caps works.
Only free tyrosine (for example) can be converted to tyramine, because otherwise it cannot fit into the bacterial enzyme responsible for the conversion. To link that to putrefaction is absurd. The specific examples of toxins created from these aminos are also not chemically likely, given the time frame of food's presence in the gut, and the nature of the transformations themselves.
> The products are supposed to be "electrically formulated" and/or "electrically available" or have "electrical integrity".
Those terms have no scientific value whatsoever. They are meant to convey a sense of inferred superiority, but there is nothing special to the concept itself, let alone the lack of validity of the claim.
> Some of which make use of ion exchange etc. Such as, including hydrogen peroxide (which I understood to encourage Free-Radicals in the body, due to oxidative process?).
Ion exchange has nothing whatsoever to do with enzymes or those "electric" concepts. Hydrogen peroxide participates in redox reactions (reduction/oxidation). Because of its reactivity, hydrogen peroxide is unstable outside of water (aqueous hydrogen peroxide can only react with other water molecules, forming one new hydrogen peroxide molecule for every one destroyed). If it is actually in one or more of these supps, it would be destroying other active principles, neutralizing the activity of both.
> I'm assuming all this "electrical" talk means in part, electrolytes, and also electrons in cells. But the use of "electric" in all of her descriptions was pretty vague.
You're giving it more credence than it deserves. It is vague so that it seems plausible to the naive.
> It all sounded a bit like "quackery", but she really insisted how well and happy she was (and she had been EXTREMELY depressed, having made suicide attempts).
The fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc (after this, therefore, because of this) probably applies. She wants to believe, so it works. Temporarily. It may also be true that the supplements she's considering have hidden ingredients, such as ephedrine (from ma huang), and such like. There may well be active principles at work here, but the rationale she was provided is entirely hokum.
> Anyone have an opinion on the validity of such a system, in terms of the "science" involved??
> Any experience?
> Very curious.
> Thanks a bunch,
> JasI welcome further questions.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 29, 2004, at 8:35:29
In reply to Re: Bowel toxins,enzyme peptide conversion of aminos? » Jasmineneroli, posted by raybakes on October 27, 2004, at 4:51:51
> if too many detoxification enzymes are used up clearing bowel toxins, there's not enough to regulate neurotransmitters..
I can't think of a single case where that is true.
> I'm not sure they would directly aid these enzymes, but it would certainly allow more nutrients available to synthesize them - think it's probably true that bacteria and yeast can degrade important amino acids.Can, but don't have time to do so. Moreover, they much prefer dealing with the energy available in all those carbs and sugars passing by. They turn to amino acid metabolism only when they're starving.
Once an amino acid is free in solution (in the stew of digesting food in the gut), it's up for grabs. It could instantly be taken up by passing through the gut wall. Or, it might be taken up by a bacterium or yeast (they need them to replicate, for example, and they do that very effectively). If used for its own proteins, that amino remains totally unchanged. The death of that particular microbe releases the unchanged amino all over again. About 90% of fecal mass is composed of alive, and the corpses of dead, intestinal flora and fauna.
Lar
Posted by raybakes on October 29, 2004, at 11:54:38
In reply to Re: Bowel toxins,enzyme peptide conversion of aminos? » raybakes, posted by Larry Hoover on October 29, 2004, at 8:35:29
> > if too many detoxification enzymes are used up clearing bowel toxins, there's not enough to regulate neurotransmitters..
>
> I can't think of a single case where that is true.Hi Lar, I was thinking of sulphation and glucuronidation in particular, because of the work on the brain-gut connection with autistic children. I think pathogens also secrete sulphatase and glucuronidase that split conjugated metabolites and toxins, and also break down the glycoproteins that hold the extracellular matrix of the gut wall together. Also methylation has a strong link with a healthy gut...
"The patients with IBD had nearly a six-fold increased incidence of hyperhomocysteinemia - having homocysteine levels above the normal range - compared to controls."
Autism and gastrointestinal symptoms., Horvath K, Perman JA., Current Gastroenterology Reports 2002 Jun;4(3):251-8
" . . . Recent clinical studies have revealed a high prevalence of gastrointestinal symptoms, inflammation, and dysfunction in children with autism. Mild to moderate degrees of inflammation were found in both the upper and lower intestinal tract. In addition, decreased sulfation capacity of the liver, pathologic intestinal permeability, increased secretory response to intravenous secretin injection, and decreased digestive enzyme activities were reported in many children with autism. Treatment of digestive problems appears to have positive effects on autistic behavior. These new observations represent only a piece of the unsolved autism "puzzle" and should stimulate more research into the brain-gut connection. "
>
>
> > I'm not sure they would directly aid these enzymes, but it would certainly allow more nutrients available to synthesize them - think it's probably true that bacteria and yeast can degrade important amino acids.
>
> Can, but don't have time to do so. Moreover, they much prefer dealing with the energy available in all those carbs and sugars passing by. They turn to amino acid metabolism only when they're starving.
>
my line of thought was that they might turn the catecholamines into tyramine, melanin and quinones, making them unavailable for neurotransmitters. If they don't then radicals like superoxide generated by immune cells during gut dysbiosis, might oxidise them anyway? What do you think?Ray
Posted by Jasmineneroli on October 30, 2004, at 0:59:56
In reply to Re: Bowel toxins,enzyme peptide conversion of aminos? » Jasmineneroli, posted by Larry Hoover on October 29, 2004, at 8:27:09
Thanks Larry & Ray for your responses.
I went to the company's website to research THEIR explanations.
It seems that they have enzyme products, which are separate to the "bowel toxin removal" treatment products. My bipolar friend definitely felt that the bowel formula was essential. The product is marketed under the ominous warning "Death begins in the colon"! Then states that "bowel toxemia is one of the most common causes of disease"
I don't have time to put more questions to you at the moment, but will post again tomorrow, because I'd like some recommendations regarding the enzymatic supplementation. I'm thinking the bowel cleanse doesn't have a lot of merit, in terms of mental health!
In the meantime, for your info, here is their explanation about the "electrically available" concept my friend was trying to explain.
"Electrically Available means that the ingredients of each product are selected, graded, mixed and formulated taking into account the unique electrical matrix of each individual component (i.e. the way the neutrons and protons form the atomic structure).This electrical formulation is carried out to ensure that the individual components can electrically interface and merge with each other and be synergistically and electrically compatible to the body as a food.
What is Electrical Nutrition?
From atoms to organs, the human body depends upon its electrical systems to sustain life. For example, the heart contains 'pacemaker' cells that send out the electrical pulses that cause it to maintain a regular heartbeat. Similar cells also govern the action of the digestive tract.
Our nervous system is a 'hard-wired' network designed to carry sensory information and instructions, also in the form of electrical pulses.
Research from the University of Basel, recently published in the science journal Nature, has shown that human DNA can transport electrical current as efficiently as a good semiconductor! Every cell in our body has a positive and negative electrical charge. Red blood cells have a positive charge internally, and a negative charge on their surface. This surface negative charge causes red cells to repel each other, so that there is ample room between them for oxygen and nutrients to flow, and for the white cells to perform immune functions
In cases of disease, which always begin with the decline of electrical integrity within the body, the red blood cells frequently lose their electrical charge and begin to stick together, creating chronic congestion and stagnation in the bloodstream that can lead to ever more serious conditions
For the past 100 years, nutritional science has been going in the wrong direction, because it is based on certain laws of inorganic chemistry that do not apply to living things. For example, chemists believe that all reactions that happen in living tissue are chemical in nature, and that it is impossible to change one element into another simply by a chemical reaction
However, from the early 19th century up until recent times, dozens of scientists have proven conclusively that plants, animals and microorganisms can actually transmute one mineral element into another, and do so on a routine basis! Unfortunately, this crucial research has been ignored or suppressed by mainstream science, because it clashes with "established" theories.
Let us take one example and follow the logic of inorganic chemistry. Nutritional experts insist that adults need to supplement their diet with extra calcium (1,000 mg per day) because it is the most common mineral element in our bodies, and high daily doses of calcium supposedly help to prevent osteoporosis.Biological Transmutations.
Several decades ago, biologist Louis Kervran wondered how his father's chickens were able to lay eggs that had strong shells even though their diet was very low in calcium. Kervran performed a controlled study proving that a chicken fed only a low calcium diet of oats could still produce four times as much calcium as she had ingested by transforming potassium from the oats into calcium!Many other scientists have obtained similar results in a wide variety of experiments. Their combined research indicates that plants, animals and micro-organisms regularly transmute the first 20 elements of the periodic table at the sub-atomic level using enzymes and hormones, with hydrogen or oxygen as the primary catalyst.
Examples of transmutation are:
Sodium+Oxygen=Potassium,
Potassium+Hydrogen=Calcium,
Magnesium+Oxygen=Calcium.Other examples of transmutation pathways for calcium have been discovered, such as: silicon plus carbon make calcium".
They also refer to a book called "The Electric Universe" by David Elliott. Upon which they seem to base their electrical matrices theory.
Good marketing, based in well-founded science, or just good marketing?????
Comments?
Thanks for your interest. I really respect your combined knowledge and the time you both spend trying to help us unravel all these mysteries :)
Jas
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 7:47:54
In reply to Re: Bowel toxins,enzymes,electricityLarry/Ray, posted by Jasmineneroli on October 30, 2004, at 0:59:56
> Thanks Larry & Ray for your responses.
> I went to the company's website to research THEIR explanations.
> It seems that they have enzyme products, which are separate to the "bowel toxin removal" treatment products. My bipolar friend definitely felt that the bowel formula was essential. The product is marketed under the ominous warning "Death begins in the colon"! Then states that "bowel toxemia is one of the most common causes of disease"
> I don't have time to put more questions to you at the moment, but will post again tomorrow, because I'd like some recommendations regarding the enzymatic supplementation. I'm thinking the bowel cleanse doesn't have a lot of merit, in terms of mental health!You could also go to one of the larger internet supplement dealers, and check their variety of products. iherb, for example. No need to pay through the nose for commonly available supps.
> In the meantime, for your info, here is their explanation about the "electrically available" concept my friend was trying to explain.
> "Electrically Available means that the ingredients of each product are selected, graded, mixed and formulated taking into account the unique electrical matrix of each individual component (i.e. the way the neutrons and protons form the atomic structure).I actually took the time to research some of the concepts, and all I can say is that alchemy didn't die out with the coming of the age of science. I'm not going to do a full critique, but, just from this sentence.....
Electrical matrix....the concept of electrical, electronic, electricity, is the physics of the electron. It has not a darn thing to do with neutrons and protons. The latter topic is nuclear physics.
> For the past 100 years, nutritional science has been going in the wrong direction, because it is based on certain laws of inorganic chemistry that do not apply to living things. For example, chemists believe that all reactions that happen in living tissue are chemical in nature, and that it is impossible to change one element into another simply by a chemical reaction
Chemical reactions are really a physical phenomenon involving electrons. The concept of "element" is a nuclear attribute.
> However, from the early 19th century up until recent times, dozens of scientists have proven conclusively that plants, animals and microorganisms can actually transmute one mineral element into another, and do so on a routine basis!
They have not done so. I actually looked at some of the primary research, and it has holes in it big enough to drive a truck through. Some of the "research" is over two hundred years old! The experimental method did not yet exist.
> Let us take one example and follow the logic of inorganic chemistry. Nutritional experts insist that adults need to supplement their diet with extra calcium (1,000 mg per day) because it is the most common mineral element in our bodies, and high daily doses of calcium supposedly help to prevent osteoporosis.
Let me propose a corollory of their mechanism. If calcium can be created from potassium and hydrogen, then it is never necessary to consume calcium, as it will be synthesized as needed. Does that mean osteopenia and osteoporosis are mythical? That their induction is one of perturbations in "vital force"? If that is so, then how is it that both conditions are remedied by the act of consuming calcium in tablet form?
I am astounded at how many different sites there are, some exceedingly well written, spouting this nonsense. Nonetheless, in one well-referenced article, I found the following quotation, supposedly in support of this transmutation theory, "For example, if ... hens are indeed transmuting potassium into calcium (which is an exo-energetic reaction), the power they are radiating is so huge that it would, if in the luminous (electromagnetic) form, set everything on fire all around! [In energetic terms, such flux would be equal to 1015 MeV/cm2/second, or 160 watts/cm2.]" I don't think you need a background in physics to understand the absurdity of this mechanism. For the full scoop, see:
http://www.papimi.gr/nelsonbiotrans.htmIn the end, somebody is trying to sell you something. This whole concept quacks.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 8:12:00
In reply to Re: Bowel toxins,enzyme peptide conversion of aminos? » Larry Hoover, posted by raybakes on October 29, 2004, at 11:54:38
> > > if too many detoxification enzymes are used up clearing bowel toxins, there's not enough to regulate neurotransmitters..
> >
> > I can't think of a single case where that is true.
>
> Hi Lar, I was thinking of sulphation and glucuronidation in particular, because of the work on the brain-gut connection with autistic children. I think pathogens also secrete sulphatase and glucuronidase that split conjugated metabolites and toxins,There are multiple excretory routes into the gut, and thus into feces. One is via bile, the direct excretion from liver to gallbladder to feces. That there are organisms within digestive tracts which can utilize conjugated compounds is of no surprise to me. However, the contents of the gut are outside the body. The issue for me is not that it might happen, but what is the yield? I doubt the proportion of excreted conjugates which are deconjugated and made available for reuptake is large. And even if it is so, the liver and mesenteric enzymes still get another crack at them, via the portal circulation.
> and also break down the glycoproteins that hold the extracellular matrix of the gut wall together.
That is one theory of leaky gut, but as far as I know, the treatments all are about establishing different populations of critters in the gut.
> Also methylation has a strong link with a healthy gut...
It's a circular relationship. A negative feedback loop.
> "The patients with IBD had nearly a six-fold increased incidence of hyperhomocysteinemia - having homocysteine levels above the normal range - compared to controls."
The treatment, then, is to restore methyl donors. That's a core element of my own self-care. Is IBD a cause, or a symptom? Or both? The latter case would hold if it's part of a negative feedback loop.
> Autism and gastrointestinal symptoms., Horvath K, Perman JA., Current Gastroenterology Reports 2002 Jun;4(3):251-8
> " . . . Recent clinical studies have revealed a high prevalence of gastrointestinal symptoms, inflammation, and dysfunction in children with autism. Mild to moderate degrees of inflammation were found in both the upper and lower intestinal tract. In addition, decreased sulfation capacity of the liver, pathologic intestinal permeability, increased secretory response to intravenous secretin injection, and decreased digestive enzyme activities were reported in many children with autism. Treatment of digestive problems appears to have positive effects on autistic behavior. These new observations represent only a piece of the unsolved autism "puzzle" and should stimulate more research into the brain-gut connection. "I would call those signs of chronic malnutrition. Malnutrition itself can cause malnutrition, by a negative feedback process. For example, lack of methylation capacity can arise from low B12 status. Low B12 status prevents timely and appropriate triggering of stomach HCl release, and of proteolytic enzymes. This reduces the digestive capacity which "exposes" food sources of B12. It may also be related to poor supply of intrinsic factor. The net effect is decreased uptake of B12 from diet, which sets the whole cycle back at the start again.
> > > I'm not sure they would directly aid these enzymes, but it would certainly allow more nutrients available to synthesize them - think it's probably true that bacteria and yeast can degrade important amino acids.
> >
> > Can, but don't have time to do so. Moreover, they much prefer dealing with the energy available in all those carbs and sugars passing by. They turn to amino acid metabolism only when they're starving.
> >
> my line of thought was that they might turn the catecholamines into tyramine, melanin and quinones, making them unavailable for neurotransmitters.In tiny quantities, if at all, IMHO. For example, look at the tyramine content of high protein foods. It always requires aging. And substantial processing. Consider....milk doesn't develop tyramine as it ages. Curdled milk, dewatered (cheese curds), very slowly develops tyramine as part of fermentation. I really do not think the biotransformations that concern you are at high yield in the gut. Trans-membrane uptake of free aminos is rapid. The gut wall wins the competition, IMHO.
> If they don't then radicals like superoxide generated by immune cells during gut dysbiosis, might oxidise them anyway? What do you think?
>
> RayThere are degrees of susceptibility to oxidation, and though superoxide is highly reactive, there are substrates that are more vulnerable. Polyunsaturated fatty acids, for example. And then there's superoxide dismutase. Zinc uptake might well be substantially decreased in intestinal inflammatory states. I go back to induced malnutrition as the variable that is amenable to manipulation.
Lar
Posted by raybakes on October 31, 2004, at 7:21:30
In reply to Re: Bowel toxins,enzyme peptide conversion of aminos? » raybakes, posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 8:12:00
Hi Lar - just looking at what enzymes are in the gut from some abstracts...
This one on sulphation..
Distribution of 2-naphthol sulphotransferase and its endogenous substrate adenosine 3'-phosphate 5'-phosphosulphate in human tissues.
Cappiello M, Franchi M, Giuliani L, Pacifici GM.
Department of General Pathology, Medical School, University of Pisa, Italy.
The activity of sulphotransferase towards 2-naphthol and the concentration of its endogenous substrate, adenosine 3'-phosphate 5'-phosphosulphate (PAPS), have been measured in five specimens of human liver, lung, and kidney, and the mucosa from the ileum and the ascending, descending and sigmoid colon. The activity of 2-naphthol sulphotransferase (mean nmol.min-1.mg-1 protein) was 1.82 (liver); 0.034 (kidney); 0.19 (lung); 0.64 (ileum); 0.47 (ascending colon); 0.50 (descending colon); 0.40 (sigmoid colon). The concentration of PAPS (mean nmol.g-1 wet tissue) was 22.6 (liver); 4.8 (kidney); 4.3 (lung); 12.8 (ileum); 8.1 (ascending colon); 7.5 (descending colon); 6.2 (sigmoid colon). The concentration of PAPS and the activity of 2-naphthol sulphotransferase were higher in the liver than in the extrahepatic tissues. There was significant difference between ileum and ascending colon, both the activity of sulphotransferase and the concentration of PAPS being higher in the former. 2-Naphthol sulphotransferase activity and the concentration of PAPS have consistent distribution patterns. Differences between the tissues studied were more marked for sulphotransferase than for its endogenous substrate.
and this one on extrahepatic cytochromes..
Human extrahepatic cytochromes P450: function in xenobiotic metabolism and tissue-selective chemical toxicity in the respiratory and gastrointestinal tracts.
Ding X, Kaminsky LS.
Wadsworth Center, New York State Department of Health, State University of New York, Albany, New York 12201, USA. xding@wadsworth.org
Cytochrome P450 (CYP) enzymes in extrahepatic tissues often play a dominant role in target tissue metabolic activation of xenobiotic compounds. They may also determine drug efficacy and influence the tissue burden of foreign chemicals or bioavailability of therapeutic agents. This review focuses on xenobiotic-metabolizing CYPs of the human respiratory and gastrointestinal tracts, including the lung, trachea, nasal respiratory and olfactory mucosa, esophagus, stomach, small intestine, and colon. Many CYPs are expressed in one or more of these organs, including CYP1A1, CYP1A2, CYP1B1, CYP2A6, CYP2A13, CYP2B6, CYP2C8, CYP2C9, CYP2C18, CYP2C19, CYP2D6, CYP2E1, CYP2F1, CYP2J2, CYP2S1, CYP3A4, CYP3A5, and CYP4B1. Of particular interest are the preferential expression of certain CYPs in the respiratory tract and the regional differences in CYP expression profile in different parts of the gastrointestinal tract. Current research activities on the characterization of CYP expression, function, and regulation in these tissues, as well as future research needs, are discussed.
Although not expressed as highly as in the liver, I still feel they are important in the proper functioning of the bowel - I have seen some references to cyp3a4 in the bowel protecting the bowel wall from bile acids.
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 31, 2004, at 7:33:52
In reply to Re: Bowel toxins,enzyme peptide conversion of aminos? » raybakes, posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 8:12:00
>
> There are multiple excretory routes into the gut, and thus into feces. One is via bile, the direct excretion from liver to gallbladder to feces. That there are organisms within digestive tracts which can utilize conjugated compounds is of no surprise to me. However, the contents of the gut are outside the body. The issue for me is not that it might happen, but what is the yield? I doubt the proportion of excreted conjugates which are deconjugated and made available for reuptake is large. And even if it is so, the liver and mesenteric enzymes still get another crack at them, via the portal circulation.
>
Hi Lar, it was the link with breast cancer and beta glucuronidase that got me thinking about recirculation of deconjugated toxins. In alternative medicine review, it claims the build up of glucuronidase in the gut allows estrogens to recirculate and increase cancer risk in estrogen sensitive tissue - so I think recirculation of toxins is a factor in the effects of bowel flora imbalances.Calcium-D-glucarate.
Calcium-D-glucarate is the calcium salt of D-glucaric acid, a substance produced naturally in small amounts by mammals, including humans. Glucaric acid is also found in many fruits and vegetables with the highest concentrations to be found in oranges, apples, grapefruit, and cruciferous vegetables. Oral supplementation of calcium-D-glucarate has been shown to inhibit beta-glucuronidase, an enzyme produced by colonic microflora and involved in Phase II liver detoxification. Elevated beta-glucuronidase activity is associated with an increased risk for various cancers, particularly hormone-dependent cancers such as breast, prostate, and colon cancers. Other potential clinical applications of oral calcium-D-glucarate include regulation of estrogen metabolism and as a lipid-lowering agent
ray
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 31, 2004, at 8:41:43
In reply to Re: Bowel toxins,enzyme peptide conversion of aminos? » Larry Hoover, posted by raybakes on October 31, 2004, at 7:33:52
> Hi Lar, it was the link with breast cancer and beta glucuronidase that got me thinking about recirculation of deconjugated toxins. In alternative medicine review, it claims the build up of glucuronidase in the gut allows estrogens to recirculate
Possibly, but the total circulating estrogen concentration is dependent, via feedback regulation, on the integrated estrogen level itself. Real-time estrogen concentration sampling regulates estrogen production; it is not relevant whether the sampled estrogen is de novo or recycled. If "unnatural" estrogen is an issue, what about the profound influence of exogenous estrogen from birth control or hormone replacement therapy?
> and increase cancer risk in estrogen sensitive tissue - so I think recirculation of toxins is a factor in the effects of bowel flora imbalances.
I think we may have a forest and trees problem again. Beta-glucoronidase is a lysosomal enzyme. It is active everywhere in the body, because it is a necessary component of cleanup operations following apoptosis, for example.
It is found in high concentrations in one genus of gut flora, the eschericia. E. coli contamination of food, for example, is rapidly determined by tests for beta-glucoronidase.
Defects in the production of beta-glucoronidase can be fatal.
http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/news/Nov2002/GeneTherapyWorksLate.html
> Calcium-D-glucarate.
>
>
>
> Calcium-D-glucarate is the calcium salt of D-glucaric acid, a substance produced naturally in small amounts by mammals, including humans. Glucaric acid is also found in many fruits and vegetables with the highest concentrations to be found in oranges, apples, grapefruit, and cruciferous vegetables. Oral supplementation of calcium-D-glucarate has been shown to inhibit beta-glucuronidase, an enzyme produced by colonic microflora and involved in Phase II liver detoxification. Elevated beta-glucuronidase activity is associated with an increased risk for various cancers, particularly hormone-dependent cancers such as breast, prostate, and colon cancers. Other potential clinical applications of oral calcium-D-glucarate include regulation of estrogen metabolism and as a lipid-lowering agent
>
> rayI just don't know if messing with this enzyme is indicated, absent some sort of health problem, such as hormone-dependent cancer.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 31, 2004, at 9:02:53
In reply to Re: Bowel toxins,enzyme peptide conversion of aminos? » Larry Hoover, posted by raybakes on October 31, 2004, at 7:21:30
> Hi Lar - just looking at what enzymes are in the gut from some abstracts...
>
> This one on sulphation..
>
> Distribution of 2-naphthol sulphotransferaseI think we better clear up what it is we're talking about.
Unfortunately, the terminology in enzymology is both inconsistent and sometimes contradictory. It needs an overhaul, but that hasn't happened yet.
A sulphotransferase is the enzyme which conjugates, via sulphonation, some substrate. That targets it for excretion, while at the same time, blocking its metabolic activity.
The corollary deconjugating enzyme is a sulphonase.
Usually, but not always, the identifying prefix, combined with the suffix -ase, means that it breaks the substance down. Examples are protease, lipase, lactase. So, glucoronidase and sulphonase are the deconjugating enzymes.
When you see the suffix -transferase, it is generally assumed that the enzyme adds the prefix substance. An aminotransferase adds the amine functional group to some substrate, for example. The conceptual problem is that some other molecule lost an amine group simultaneously. A methylating enzyme is also simultaneously a demethylating one, eh?
Then you get exceptions such as cyclooxygenase. It takes a linear polyunsturated fatty acid, and makes a ring out of it by adding oxygen. However, the name might also suggest that it does the exact opposite.
I just want to make sure that you focus your attention on the deconjugating enzymes.
>
> and this one on extrahepatic cytochromes..
>
> Human extrahepatic cytochromes P450: function in xenobiotic metabolism and tissue-selective chemical toxicity in the respiratory and gastrointestinal tracts.
>
> Ding X, Kaminsky LS.
>
> Wadsworth Center, New York State Department of Health, State University of New York, Albany, New York 12201, USA. xding@wadsworth.org
>
> Cytochrome P450 (CYP) enzymes in extrahepatic tissues often play a dominant role in target tissue metabolic activation of xenobiotic compounds. They may also determine drug efficacy and influence the tissue burden of foreign chemicals or bioavailability of therapeutic agents. This review focuses on xenobiotic-metabolizing CYPs of the human respiratory and gastrointestinal tracts, including the lung, trachea, nasal respiratory and olfactory mucosa, esophagus, stomach, small intestine, and colon. Many CYPs are expressed in one or more of these organs, including CYP1A1, CYP1A2, CYP1B1, CYP2A6, CYP2A13, CYP2B6, CYP2C8, CYP2C9, CYP2C18, CYP2C19, CYP2D6, CYP2E1, CYP2F1, CYP2J2, CYP2S1, CYP3A4, CYP3A5, and CYP4B1. Of particular interest are the preferential expression of certain CYPs in the respiratory tract and the regional differences in CYP expression profile in different parts of the gastrointestinal tract. Current research activities on the characterization of CYP expression, function, and regulation in these tissues, as well as future research needs, are discussed.I just want to say that most of the drug interactions that people get concerned about actually take place in the wall of the intestine....at least those which have immediate effect.
> Although not expressed as highly as in the liver, I still feel they are important in the proper functioning of the bowel - I have seen some references to cyp3a4 in the bowel protecting the bowel wall from bile acids.
>
> RayIf you're concerned about that, then don't ever consume grapefruit, as the effect is mediated in the gut wall, blocking 3A4.
If you want to induce 3A4, then take some St. John's wort.
My central point, hitherto unexpressed, is that there is a lot more to "hepatic" enzymes than meets the eye. We're only just starting to understand the complexity of interactions. Rather than trying to affect a specific aspect of e.g. hepatic function, it makes more sense to promote hepatic health. Unless, of course, a specific disorder is being considered.
Lar
Posted by Jasmineneroli on October 31, 2004, at 18:21:57
In reply to Re: Bowel toxins,enzyme peptide conversion of aminos? » raybakes, posted by Larry Hoover on October 31, 2004, at 9:02:53
Thanks Lar, for the link on biological transmutations. It was both interesting and amusing :). I agree with the alchemy comment! I had a feeling after reading the company's stuff, that I was in either a cheap sci-fi movie, or being deliberately confused (or both)! And it doesn't take much to confuse me nowadays (more about that later).
* The bowel health/detox thing I'm leaving alone.
* The "electric herb cocktails" ditto.
Questions:
My dx is severe GAD, with mild-mod. depression, (which varies with the stressors, I usually get a depression "fall-out" after a prolonged stressful time). Quite often I have an absence of depression. There's a seasonal aspect to it. I ALWAYS have depression/suicide ideation in Feb./March and MUCH worse insomnia then too.
RLS, night time excessive leg movement and a lot of twitching, "like electric shocks" according to my husband. Have lots of headaches too, but they have reduced since I dropped supplemental calcium & started mag. citrate. (I get headaches from Celexa as well).
Sleeping has been an issue with me for 5+ years. Can't fall asleep, then wake every 2-3 hours, with racing thoughts. Fall into a DEEP sleep around 4-5am and find it VERY hard to wake-up at 6:30am. Takes me an hour to "come-to" and another hour to get ready for work.
Possible OCD traits...have rituals about getting ready to go out, and always add too many tasks (for e.g.: I MUST put laundry in before I leave today).
Otherwise I alternate between high energy, outgoing, creative, scattered thinking, lack of focus (and up into anxiety) and grouchy, irritable, sound-sensitive, "slow" moving and thinking (but my mood isn't necessarily "down").
I'm apparently not bipolar (but have energy mood swings that my pdoc thinks are hormonal in origin). I think I might be "soft-bipolar IV" on Akiskal's scale - depressive hyperthymic. I dunno about that one.
I currently take .5mg Klonopin daily (divided into 2 doses) and 10mg Celexa. Klonopin has been the ONLY thing to help my anxiety and RLS. I think Celexa helps "even" me out, mood-wise, but I have a host of side-effects to it. Sleep WAS better, until the Celexa was added.
I didn't have such severe difficulty getting aroused in the am before these drugs, but it still was a bit of an issue.
ANYWAY, back to questions:
1)Do you think a "hormonal balancing" product might help me ( and I mean ALL hormones, including adrenal/cortisol). If so, what ingredients should I look for in such a product. (I'm menopausal, on daily 1mg estradiol mono-hormone replacement <can't tolerate progesterone in any form>)?
2)Re: enzymes. Will taking an enzyme formula improve absorption and use of all other supplements and foods, including the whey protein powder I take everyday. Will such a product help also with more efficient synthesis of my psychiatric drugs, and protect my liver?
3) I want to add selegiline to my mix, to help combat Celexa side effects & get me going in the am. What do you think?I want to eventually get off all my pharmaceuticals ( or find alternatives) because I'm losing my faculties!! My short term memory is completely shot (even prior to taking Klon.). I cannot learn like I could even last year..cognitive functioning is SO reduced. I have trouble understanding the stuff I read here and the research I do sometimes and I NEVER remember it (which makes it difficult to put up a debate with my pdoc). I make a lot of silly mistakes.
It sucks, because I'm used to having a quick and creative mind! I have an IQ of 145 (or used to :)).SORRY, Lar, for going on so. I'm very grateful that you are even reading this!! I'd love to hear your recommendations, and anyone else's too!
Thanks a million
Jas
Posted by raybakes on November 1, 2004, at 7:38:03
In reply to Re: Bowel toxins,enzyme peptide conversion of aminos? » raybakes, posted by Larry Hoover on October 31, 2004, at 9:02:53
>
> A sulphotransferase is the enzyme which conjugates, via sulphonation, some substrate. That targets it for excretion, while at the same time, blocking its metabolic activity.
>
> The corollary deconjugating enzyme is a sulphonase.Hi Lar, the articles I've been reading call the deconjugating enzyme sulfatase/sulphatase?
Found this abstract interesting - infection/inflammation can decrease the availability of sulphate but upto 80%
Autism And Sulphation: The Role Of Cytokines
As sulphate is required for the synthesis of gut mucins and the functioning of the digestive system, infections or inflammatory responses would depress the body’s capacity to break proteins down to amino-acids, resulting in higher levels of peptides, and would also lead to ‘leaky gut ‘syndrome.
http://www.mindofachildaustralia.org/abstract-waring.html
> >
> I just want to say that most of the drug interactions that people get concerned about actually take place in the wall of the intestine....at least those which have immediate
effect.if the drugs are reacting with dextoxification enzymes in the gut, doesn't this have implications for the whole body, and the brain?
>
> My central point, hitherto unexpressed, is that there is a lot more to "hepatic" enzymes than meets the eye. We're only just starting to understand the complexity of interactions. Rather than trying to affect a specific aspect of e.g. hepatic function, it makes more sense to promote hepatic health. Unless, of course, a specific disorder is being considered.
I still feel that a toxic bowel will overload detoxification enzymes in the bowel and put more of a load on detoxification elsewhere in the body - including the brain. Do you not feel that is possible?Thanks for the debate/chat/information - hope it's not getting too heavy!
Ray
Posted by raybakes on November 1, 2004, at 7:51:15
In reply to Re: Bowel toxins,enzyme peptide conversion of aminos? » raybakes, posted by Larry Hoover on October 31, 2004, at 8:41:43
Hi Lar, I wasn't trying to be specific about this enzyme, just as part of the picture of how bowel imbalance can impact the whole body - i realise nothing is usually good or bad, just out of balance.
> > Possibly, but the total circulating estrogen concentration is dependent, via feedback regulation, on the integrated estrogen level itself. Real-time estrogen concentration sampling regulates estrogen production; it is not relevant whether the sampled estrogen is de novo or recycled. If "unnatural" estrogen is an issue, what about the profound influence of exogenous estrogen from birth control or hormone replacement therapy?
But we do have an epidemic of estrogen sensitive cancers - if the feedback worked well surely these cancers wouldn't be occuring? It wasn't really the beta glucuronidase I wanted to focus on, it was again the balance of the bowel and it's implications on the health of the rest of the body.....
Estrogens, breast cancer, and intestinal flora.
Gorbach SL.
Epidemiologic evidence has linked diet to breast cancer, with the highest cancer rates observed in women who eat a high fat-low fiber diet. There is also substantial information, both clinical and experimental, that implicates estrogens in the etiology of breast cancer. A recent study from our laboratory has shown that diet influences levels of estrogens, and the main mechanism is metabolism of estrogens in the intestine. The intestinal microflora plays a key role in the enterohepatic circulation of estrogens by deconjugating bound estrogens that appear in the bile, thereby permitting the free hormones to be reabsorbed. By suppressing the microflora with antibiotic therapy, fecal estrogens increase and urinary estrogens decrease, changes indicating diminished intestinal reabsorption. A low fat-high fiber diet is associated with similar findings-high fecal estrogens and low urinary estrogens. It appears that the microflora plays a key role in the metabolism of female sex hormones.
Ray
.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 2, 2004, at 10:34:13
In reply to Re: Bowel toxins,enzyme.Help, questions ?, posted by Jasmineneroli on October 31, 2004, at 18:21:57
> Thanks Lar, for the link on biological transmutations. It was both interesting and amusing :). I agree with the alchemy comment! I had a feeling after reading the company's stuff, that I was in either a cheap sci-fi movie, or being deliberately confused (or both)! And it doesn't take much to confuse me nowadays (more about that later).
The thing that makes sci-fi what it is is the blend of science and fiction. There's enough science to make the fiction plausible.
> * The bowel health/detox thing I'm leaving alone.
Good, IMHO.
> * The "electric herb cocktails" ditto.
Well, the poor rationale does not invalidate any potential effect of the herbs. The herbs don't know they're being lied about.
> Questions:
> My dx is severe GAD, with mild-mod. depression, (which varies with the stressors, I usually get a depression "fall-out" after a prolonged stressful time). Quite often I have an absence of depression. There's a seasonal aspect to it. I ALWAYS have depression/suicide ideation in Feb./March and MUCH worse insomnia then too.Have you tried a light box? You might be vitamin D deficient, too.
> RLS, night time excessive leg movement and a lot of twitching, "like electric shocks" according to my husband. Have lots of headaches too, but they have reduced since I dropped supplemental calcium & started mag. citrate. (I get headaches from Celexa as well).
RLS is associated with low iron. How is your ferritin level?
> Sleeping has been an issue with me for 5+ years. Can't fall asleep, then wake every 2-3 hours, with racing thoughts. Fall into a DEEP sleep around 4-5am and find it VERY hard to wake-up at 6:30am. Takes me an hour to "come-to" and another hour to get ready for work.
There are disorders of sleep structure that involve failure to permit the release of consciousness, to move into sleep. This is involuntary. You can't make yourself give up consciousness. Sleep hygiene practises only go so far in relieving this problem. One of the most effective meds for this problem is temazepam (Restoril).
> Possible OCD traits...have rituals about getting ready to go out, and always add too many tasks (for e.g.: I MUST put laundry in before I leave today).
Exaggerated coping response? You don't want to be a f*** up?
> Otherwise I alternate between high energy, outgoing, creative, scattered thinking, lack of focus (and up into anxiety) and grouchy, irritable, sound-sensitive, "slow" moving and thinking (but my mood isn't necessarily "down").
How long is the period between high and low? Is there any possibility that you might have PTSD?
> I'm apparently not bipolar (but have energy mood swings that my pdoc thinks are hormonal in origin). I think I might be "soft-bipolar IV" on Akiskal's scale - depressive hyperthymic. I dunno about that one.
Diagnoses are only useful in so far as they guide treatment, apart from the obvious value of "saving a lot of words to describe what I'm like".
Have you tried omega-3 supplementation, e.g. fish oil?
> I currently take .5mg Klonopin daily (divided into 2 doses) and 10mg Celexa. Klonopin has been the ONLY thing to help my anxiety and RLS. I think Celexa helps "even" me out, mood-wise, but I have a host of side-effects to it. Sleep WAS better, until the Celexa was added.
Did you notice an anxiolytic effect of magnesium? Have you tried niacinamide? Taurine?
> I didn't have such severe difficulty getting aroused in the am before these drugs, but it still was a bit of an issue.
Do you take the Celexa only in the a.m.?
> ANYWAY, back to questions:
> 1)Do you think a "hormonal balancing" product might help me ( and I mean ALL hormones, including adrenal/cortisol). If so, what ingredients should I look for in such a product. (I'm menopausal, on daily 1mg estradiol mono-hormone replacement <can't tolerate progesterone in any form>)?There is simply too much variation in the formulation of "hormone balancers" to even consider a response, let alone the fact that some people have paradoxical responses (the opposite reaction to what you'd expect).
I wonder if the adaptogen herbs might be a better choice. Those would be St. John's wort, Rhodiola, Siberian ginseng, Ashwagandha....and others. One at a time, of course. Not all together.
> 2)Re: enzymes. Will taking an enzyme formula improve absorption and use of all other supplements and foods, including the whey protein powder I take everyday. Will such a product help also with more efficient synthesis of my psychiatric drugs, and protect my liver?
Enzymes fall into the "can't hurt, might help" category. They also aren't the kind of thing that you can take for a day, and decide whether they work, or not. If you take them daily for six weeks, and that corresponds with a general feeling of stabilization and resiliency, then they may be the cause of that trend.
Whey powder varies substantially. Some is hydrolyzed (pre-digested). Some says it is hydrolyzed, but isn't. Some just isn't. If your enzymes aren't working right, you will get a reduced benefit from whey powder.
Some people who have poor protein digestion benefit from bromelain (proeolytic enzyme but also anti-inflammatory), B-12 (It's an essential part of protein digestion, but indirectly. Poor protein digestion, though, leads to B-12 deficiency, so this can be a vicious circle.), and betaine.
There are some fairly inexpensive multi-enzyme formulas available (check iherb, for example). They pretty much can't hurt you in any way.
> 3) I want to add selegiline to my mix, to help combat Celexa side effects & get me going in the am. What do you think?
Mixing an SSRI with an MAOI is not recommended. It's not excluded, but it has risks. If you can get your doctor to agree to that, fine. The absolute maximum dose would be 5 mg, and I'd say 2.5 might be a prudent limit.
> I want to eventually get off all my pharmaceuticals ( or find alternatives) because I'm losing my faculties!! My short term memory is completely shot (even prior to taking Klon.). I cannot learn like I could even last year..cognitive functioning is SO reduced. I have trouble understanding the stuff I read here and the research I do sometimes and I NEVER remember it (which makes it difficult to put up a debate with my pdoc).Anticipate the questions/challenges, and write things down. The very fact that you struggle with this is evidence for the struggle itself.
>I make a lot of silly mistakes.
You're aging, too.
> It sucks, because I'm used to having a quick and creative mind! I have an IQ of 145 (or used to :)).
You don't mention much about supplements. If you did before, I forget. What are you taking, supplement wise?
> SORRY, Lar, for going on so. I'm very grateful that you are even reading this!! I'd love to hear your recommendations, and anyone else's too!
> Thanks a million
> JasWe'll get to a solution. It takes patience. And, as long as I'm hanging out here, I'm happy to help.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 2, 2004, at 11:37:57
In reply to Re: Bowel toxins,enzyme peptide conversion of aminos? » Larry Hoover, posted by raybakes on November 1, 2004, at 7:38:03
>
> >
> > A sulphotransferase is the enzyme which conjugates, via sulphonation, some substrate. That targets it for excretion, while at the same time, blocking its metabolic activity.
> >
> > The corollary deconjugating enzyme is a sulphonase.
>
> Hi Lar, the articles I've been reading call the deconjugating enzyme sulfatase/sulphatase?The nomenclature gets confusing, doesn't it? The American spelling of sulphur is sulfur, and now it looks like the f is winning out over the ph.
Oh, geez, maybe I read something more into the nomenclature than was intended. Sulphotransferases may sulphonate, or they may sulphate, apparently. It may mean they are non-specific, or it may mean the nomenclature is nonspecific. Hmmmm.
A sulphonase has to be different than a sulphatase, though, as the designated substrate is different.
A sulphoxide has one oxygen double bonded to sulphur. An example is DMSO (dimethyl sulphoxide; methyl- S=O -methyl). An example of a sulphonyl sulphur is MSM, methyl-sulphonyl-methane. It has a two oxygen atoms, double-bonded to sulphur (methyl- O=S=0 -methyl). A sulphonate sulphur has three oxygens, but a single bond to the organic substrate. A sulphate sulphur is sulphur bound to four oxygens, and is bound to the organic substrate by an oxygen bridge.
In any case, I didn't mean to suggest that there aren't multiple conjugating and deconjugating enzymes. The terminology (nomenclature) also leaves a lot to be desired.
There is a possible "logic" to having a nonspecific conjugating enzyme (sulphotransferase) and specific deconjugating ones, though. I just don't know where the truth lies, here.
>
> Found this abstract interesting - infection/inflammation can decrease the availability of sulphate but upto 80%
>
> Autism And Sulphation: The Role Of Cytokines
>
> As sulphate is required for the synthesis of gut mucins and the functioning of the digestive system, infections or inflammatory responses would depress the body’s capacity to break proteins down to amino-acids, resulting in higher levels of peptides, and would also lead to ‘leaky gut ‘syndrome.
>
> http://www.mindofachildaustralia.org/abstract-waring.htmlHmmmm. I need to process this bit.
> > >
> > I just want to say that most of the drug interactions that people get concerned about actually take place in the wall of the intestine....at least those which have immediate
> effect.
>
> if the drugs are reacting with dextoxification enzymes in the gut, doesn't this have implications for the whole body, and the brain?I'm not sure where you're going with that. The primary reason that the enzymes act in the gut wall is driven by evolution. Not all foods are fully non-toxic, but they may still be nutritive. What was not anticipated by evolution was the profound change in diet caused by agriculture.
> >
> > My central point, hitherto unexpressed, is that there is a lot more to "hepatic" enzymes than meets the eye. We're only just starting to understand the complexity of interactions. Rather than trying to affect a specific aspect of e.g. hepatic function, it makes more sense to promote hepatic health. Unless, of course, a specific disorder is being considered.
>
> I still feel that a toxic bowel will overload detoxification enzymes in the bowel and put more of a load on detoxification elsewhere in the body - including the brain. Do you not feel that is possible?Sure, that's a plausible mechanism for what we're talking about, although "toxic bowel" leaves me a little ambivalent.
> Thanks for the debate/chat/information - hope it's not getting too heavy!
>
> RayIf it is, I'll just disappear again. That's an unconscious coping strategy. I just do what I gotta do, or don't what I gotta don't.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 2, 2004, at 11:50:07
In reply to Re: Bowel toxins,enzyme peptide conversion of aminos? » Larry Hoover, posted by raybakes on November 1, 2004, at 7:51:15
> But we do have an epidemic of estrogen sensitive cancers - if the feedback worked well surely these cancers wouldn't be occuring? It wasn't really the beta glucuronidase I wanted to focus on, it was again the balance of the bowel and it's implications on the health of the rest of the body.....
That epidemic is far more likely to be due to pollution than to anything else, in particular.
I'm a few years out of the loop, but back when I was in it, I was studying and reporting on the environmental impacts of xenoestrogens. Xeno- means from outside, and the suffix is obvious. Anything that enters an organism and acts like estrogen is problematic. My research was primarily with respect to aquatic organisms, but a good part of it was human impacts.
Let me just say that hundreds of different compounds were found to have estrogen binding affinity, and multiple agonism and antagonism effects. Within different tissues, a substance (even estrogen itself) will have different effects at the same concentration. Tamoxifen, used to treat estrogen-sensitive breast cancer, inactivates estrogen receptors in breast tissue, but not elsewhere in the body (at least in a relative sense). Another example is the effect of DDE (metabolite of DDT) on estrogen-dependent calcium pumps in the oviduct of birds. The birds' breeding behaviour was not affected (they still had normal estrogen-dependent breeding behaviour), but they were unable to produce eggs with shells thick enough to withstand the weight of the parent during incubation. We nearly lost the bald eagle because of this.
When you start thinking hormones, it gets more complicated than anything else I can think of.
Lar
Posted by Jasmineneroli on November 2, 2004, at 16:23:16
In reply to Re: Bowel toxins,enzyme.Help, questions ? » Jasmineneroli, posted by Larry Hoover on November 2, 2004, at 10:34:13
Hiya Lar:
Thank you for spending the time to read and ponder my post :)
> Have you tried a light box? You might be vitamin D deficient, too.* No, not yet, I've seriously been considering it, and was wondering if the "light alarm" version would be the most helpful to me, in getting up in the am??
> RLS is associated with low iron. How is your ferritin level?* Iron levels have been fine every time they have been checked (annually for past 4-5 years). I don't know exactly what the readings were, but within the normal range according to my GP.
Vit D deficiency may be an issue. I do not supplement, now that I've dropped the calcium (the supplement had Calc. + D).
> There are disorders of sleep structure that involve failure to permit the release of consciousness, to move into sleep. This is involuntary. You can't make yourself give up consciousness. Sleep hygiene practises only go so far in relieving this problem. One of the most effective meds for this problem is temazepam (Restoril).* Since I already take Clonazepam for anxiety, I'm not sure my pdoc would go for another benzo. I had an appointment with him yesterday, and we've dropped the Celexa (due to side effects) in favour of L-Tryptophan, which he feels will have less s/e's and be more of a sleep-aid. Just started last night. 2x500mg tablets at bedtime. No change to sleep pattern, last night. But I'm to experiment with the dosage. (Tryptophan by prescript. btw, since I'm in Canada).
>> OCD Traits?
> Exaggerated coping response? You don't want to be a f*** up?*Absolutely!!! Part of my GAD "personality" I think. Over-conscientious, always worrying/anticipating problems. The worst part of that anxiety disorder, it's hard to relax. I'm finding a lot of what look likes other disorders, is just a manifestation of anxiety. Thanks for the reminder!!
> > Otherwise I alternate between high energy, outgoing, creative, scattered thinking, lack of focus (and up into anxiety) and grouchy, irritable, sound-sensitive, "slow" moving and thinking (but my mood isn't necessarily "down").
>
> How long is the period between high and low? Is there any possibility that you might have PTSD?* Um, that's hard to say, it varies so much. I'm probably at the low "irritable" end 1-2 days out of 7 , somewhere in the middle for 4 days, then "up and wired" for 1-2 days. I've been much more "even" since on the Celexa. But still get get "up" 1 or 2 days per week.
Yes, there are things in my past both distant and more recently that could cause PTSD, but I've not really discussed the distant stuff with my Pdoc.> > I'm apparently not bipolar. I dunno about that one.
>
> Diagnoses are only useful in so far as they guide treatment, apart from the obvious value of "saving a lot of words to describe what I'm like".* Discussed this at my Pdoc's app't yesterday. He says I'm definitely NOT bipolar, under ANY description. My dx is predominantly anxiety, as far as he's concerned. He even feels it's the anxiety that has made me "stupid" (my term, not his). Because my pre-frontal cortex keeps shutting down on overload from adrenalin (or NE, whichever term you wanna use). He doesn't feel the drugs are causing it either, dosages too low. But I agree, finding effective treatment is the main issue.
> Have you tried omega-3 supplementation, e.g. fish oil?
* Yes, for over a year I was on a variety of DPA/EHA fish oils (mostly salmon). I felt no changes....suspected headaches and dropped them 3 months ago. I also took Evening primrose oil for many years and have now substituted a Borage/Flax oil supplement for the EPO. No side effects to that. Have great skin and hair, which I think is an "outward" sign that they are working!
> Did you notice an anxiolytic effect of magnesium? Have you tried niacinamide? Taurine?
* More of a drowsiness from 500mg Mag citrate, but I guess you can call it, anxiolytic. I'm back to 250mg Mag at bedtime. I took the "no-flush" niacin for a long period. Take none now. I take Taurine, but sporadically. (Sometimes add it to my Protein shake).I add Glutamine to my shake every day. After reading your regimen, I may start taking Taurine at night. ???> > I didn't have such severe difficulty getting aroused in the am before these drugs, but it still was a bit of an issue.
>
> Do you take the Celexa only in the a.m.?* I actually took Celexa after supper time, because I got so much gut pain/nausea a few hours later, I wanted to sleep through it. This SE did reduce considerably after some months, but I did not change the dose time. Now a moot point, since I'm off Celexa for now.
> There is simply too much variation in the formulation of "hormone balancers" to even consider a response, let alone the fact that some people have paradoxical responses (the opposite reaction to what you'd expect).* Yes, stupid question of mine, really. Not specific enough.
> I wonder if the adaptogen herbs might be a better choice. Those would be St. John's wort, Rhodiola, Siberian ginseng, Ashwagandha....and others. One at a time, of course. Not all together.
* I've tried SJW, gives me headaches ( so MANY things do, it's frustrating). I used Rhodiola for about 2 months, in the am. The first brand, Enzymatic Therapy, definitely helped to "energize" me in the morning. I could'nt get hold of it when it ran out, so used the Now brand and found zero effect. However, I read that Rhodiola has only a limited effective time, so I wasn't sure if it had "pooped-out" or if the 2nd brand wasn't as superior. One of my problems with the whole issue of alternative supplements, is that you never really know what you are getting.
I think I will try to get more Enz. Therapy brand Rhodiola and give it another shot. I had no side effects to it.
I took Siberian Ginseng daily for about 6 months and recently dropped that. Just felt it was doing nothing.> Enzymes fall into the "can't hurt, might help" category. They also aren't the kind of thing that you can take for a day, and decide whether they work, or not. If you take them daily for six weeks, and that corresponds with a general feeling of stabilization and resiliency, then they may be the cause of that trend.
* I will definitely look into supplementing with enzymes, then.> Whey powder varies substantially. Some is hydrolyzed (pre-digested). Some says it is hydrolyzed, but isn't. Some just isn't. If your enzymes aren't working right, you will get a reduced benefit from whey powder.
* I use a PVL (Canadian) brand Whey protein Iso/concentrate blend. Supposed to be good quality and hydrolyzed.
> Some people who have poor protein digestion benefit from bromelain (proeolytic enzyme but also anti-inflammatory), B-12 (It's an essential part of protein digestion, but indirectly. Poor protein digestion, though, leads to B-12 deficiency, so this can be a vicious circle.), and betaine.
* I have been tested numerous times for B12 deficiency, and again score as normal.
> There are some fairly inexpensive multi-enzyme formulas available (check iherb, for example). They pretty much can't hurt you in any way.
* Yes, will follow through on that suggestion :)>
> Mixing an SSRI with an MAOI is not recommended. It's not excluded, but it has risks. If you can get your doctor to agree to that, fine. The absolute maximum dose would be 5 mg, and I'd say 2.5 might be a prudent limit.* Off the Celexa so the MAOI mix not at issue. However, my Pdoc anticipates S/E's for me with Selegiline. He's asked me to take my PM Clonazepam earlier, to help lessen am "slowness".
>> Pdoc appointments:
> Anticipate the questions/challenges, and write things down. The very fact that you struggle with this is evidence for the struggle itself.
* Ha! I typed up a 2 page essay for him to read yesterday...which helped tremendously. He agrees with you, and maintains that the memory/cognitive problems are pure anxiety!
> >I make a lot of silly mistakes.
>
> You're aging, too.* NOOOOOOOOOO! It can't be :)
> You don't mention much about supplements. If you did before, I forget. What are you taking, supplement wise?
* Um, OK here goes: Green tea capsules, an anti-oxidant formula (Vit A, C, beta carotene, thiamine, folic acid, B6, riboflavin, selenium, magnesium papaya & pineapple extract, quercitin, citrus bioflavanoids, acetyl-L-cysteine & grape seed extract), potassium, pantothenic acid, Vit E (mixed tocotrienols/tocopherols) P5P B6, Chromium Picolinate with biotin, Zinc, Mag. Citrate, Keto-DHEA, Omega mix: borage +flax & acetyl-L-carnitine.> We'll get to a solution. It takes patience. And, as long as I'm hanging out here, I'm happy to help.
>
> Lar* Thank you SO VERY MUCH, I truly appreciate you, your knowledge and your desire to help out others!
I hope you hang out here for a LONG time to come!
Take care
Jas
Posted by raybakes on November 3, 2004, at 14:04:44
In reply to Re: xenoestrogens » raybakes, posted by Larry Hoover on November 2, 2004, at 11:50:07
> When you start thinking hormones, it gets more complicated than anything else I can think of.
>
yep, agree with that!The immune system seems to complicate things even further! Various abstracts clain that nearly every enzyme on the steroid pathway is influenced by the immune system - I wonder if the nervous system is the same?
"Interferon- Inhibits the Steroidogenic Acute Regulatory Protein Messenger Ribonucleic Acid Expression and Protein Levels in Primary Cultures of Rat Leydig Cells"
http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/139/5/2217
Ray
Posted by raybakes on November 3, 2004, at 14:37:55
In reply to Re: Bowel toxins,enzyme peptide conversion of aminos? » raybakes, posted by Larry Hoover on November 2, 2004, at 11:37:57
> A sulphonase has to be different than a sulphatase, though, as the designated substrate is different.
>
> A sulphoxide has one oxygen double bonded to sulphur. An example is DMSO (dimethyl sulphoxide; methyl- S=O -methyl). An example of a sulphonyl sulphur is MSM, methyl-sulphonyl-methane. It has a two oxygen atoms, double-bonded to sulphur (methyl- O=S=0 -methyl). A sulphonate sulphur has three oxygens, but a single bond to the organic substrate. A sulphate sulphur is sulphur bound to four oxygens, and is bound to the organic substrate by an oxygen bridge.
Thanks Larry, you certainly give good value!!I'm fascinated by the sulphur thing because I know how much benefit I personally get to my gut and brain when I take MSM - I get similar effects with sulphate, but I don't get loose stools with MSM.
Again in autism they have found that CCK being sulphated helps autistic children, also mucin in the gut needs to be sulphated too.
I also did a search for mucin in the brain and came up with this article about glycoproteins being involved in synaptic transmission...what do you think?
Ray
Glycobiology of the synapse
Paul T. Martin
Department of Neurosciences, Glycobiology Research and Training Center, University of California, San Diego, School of Medicine, 9500 Gilman Drive, La Jolla, CA 92093-0691Abstract
Synapses are the fundamental units of connectivity that link together the nervous system. Lectin studies from 30 years ago suggested that specific glycans are concentrated at neuromuscular synapses in the peripheral nervous system and at excitatory synapses in the brain. Subsequent studies have confirmed that particular glycan structures are localized at these synapses, including polysialic acid, high mannose, the cytotoxic T cell antigen, and forms of heparan sulfate. Though the role of these molecules in synapse formation and function is still poorly understood, there is increasing evidence that the function of agrin, a synaptogenic factor in neuromuscular formation, is modulated by several glycans. In addition, the recent generation of ST8SiaIV null mice strongly suggests a role for polysialic acid in synaptic plasticity in the some regions of the central nervous system.
>
Posted by tealady on November 3, 2004, at 21:25:15
In reply to Re: Bowel toxins,enzyme.Help, questions ? » Larry Hoover, posted by Jasmineneroli on November 2, 2004, at 16:23:16
Jas,
The keto DHEA you take..does it work for you? and do you find it better than normal DHEA? have you tried both?
Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 4, 2004, at 11:30:09
In reply to Re: xenoestrogens » Larry Hoover, posted by raybakes on November 3, 2004, at 14:04:44
> > When you start thinking hormones, it gets more complicated than anything else I can think of.
> >
> yep, agree with that!
>
> The immune system seems to complicate things even further! Various abstracts clain that nearly every enzyme on the steroid pathway is influenced by the immune system - I wonder if the nervous system is the same?
>
> "Interferon- Inhibits the Steroidogenic Acute Regulatory Protein Messenger Ribonucleic Acid Expression and Protein Levels in Primary Cultures of Rat Leydig Cells"
>
> http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/139/5/2217
>
> RayYes, it is. All the steroids are neuroactive. Some call the steroids in the brain neuroactive-steroids, but they're the same ones that are floating around in blood.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 4, 2004, at 11:37:58
In reply to Re: Bowel toxins,enzyme peptide conversion of aminos? » Larry Hoover, posted by raybakes on November 3, 2004, at 14:37:55
>
> > A sulphonase has to be different than a sulphatase, though, as the designated substrate is different.
> >
> > A sulphoxide has one oxygen double bonded to sulphur. An example is DMSO (dimethyl sulphoxide; methyl- S=O -methyl). An example of a sulphonyl sulphur is MSM, methyl-sulphonyl-methane. It has a two oxygen atoms, double-bonded to sulphur (methyl- O=S=0 -methyl). A sulphonate sulphur has three oxygens, but a single bond to the organic substrate. A sulphate sulphur is sulphur bound to four oxygens, and is bound to the organic substrate by an oxygen bridge.
>
>
> Thanks Larry, you certainly give good value!!I forgot to mention sulfhydryl/sulphydryl (-SH), which is the sulphur analog to the alcohol functional group (-OH). It's the antioxidant centre in glutathione. When the sulphur atom is substituted by selenium, it has more antioxidant capacity. That's where seleno-cysteine and seleno-methionine are so important.
>
> I'm fascinated by the sulphur thing because I know how much benefit I personally get to my gut and brain when I take MSM - I get similar effects with sulphate, but I don't get loose stools with MSM.Sulphate is hygroscopic (draws water), just as is magnesium ion. The combination, magnesium sulphate, does a double whammy on the gut, drawing in fluid of hydration to both ions.
MSM is likely absorbed too quickly to lead to hygroscopic events.
> Again in autism they have found that CCK being sulphated helps autistic children, also mucin in the gut needs to be sulphated too.
>
> I also did a search for mucin in the brain and came up with this article about glycoproteins being involved in synaptic transmission...what do you think?
>
> Ray
>
> Glycobiology of the synapseDunno, Ray. My brain says, "enough thinking for now".
Lar
Posted by Jasmineneroli on November 4, 2004, at 19:03:07
In reply to Re: Bowel toxins,enzyme.Help, questions ? » Jasmineneroli, posted by tealady on November 3, 2004, at 21:25:15
Hi Jan:
I haven't taken regular DHEA because it is unavailable in Canada. The only version of DHEA that can be sold here, is the Keto version. It's mainly sold here as an aid to weight loss (which is not why I'm trying it).
At the moment it's pretty hard to say if it's working, because I'm messing around a lot with other supplements and meds. However, I do know I'm not getting any side effects to it !!! (Which for me, is always a positive thing and I really take as a pointer that it IS doing something for me).
Once I've stabilized everything else, I'll be better able to evaluate. I'm guessing it has a pro-energy effect, actually, as well as a blood sugar stabilizing effect. I'll report back later!
Jas
Posted by Jasmineneroli on November 5, 2004, at 0:13:35
In reply to Re: Bowel toxins,enzyme.Help, questions ? » tealady, posted by Jasmineneroli on November 4, 2004, at 19:03:07
O yeah Jan, I forgot.....I think it has helped boost my immune system - haven't been sick in ages, when everyone around me has had numerous colds etc.
Jas
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