![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 16 to 40 of 40. Go back in thread:
Posted by Medline on January 26, 2009, at 17:50:58
In reply to Re: I'm 100% cured of Social Phobia!!!, posted by sam K on January 26, 2009, at 17:32:29
Thank you very much! Some more insights in my stack:
Moclobemide has shown to be effective in SAD, but I consider irreversible MAOIs better, therefore the add-on of low dose Selegiline. This one is a great GHB/GBL enhancer too.
Baclofen has some anxiolytic properties, but I take it mainly to not get addicted to GBL.
I just saw that 50mg Cycloserine is indeed the correct, it is so low, that toxicity shouldn't be a problem at all.
Klonopin is a good anxiolytic, but not a great socializer/empathogen. Altough 6ml of GBL is not a very high dose (about 12g of Na-GHB and narcoleptics using 9g don't get addicted) I want to play it safe and also keep other negative feedback mechanism down to a minimum.
GHB/GBL also works on endogenous opiods, which I consider an often overlooked connection in SAD. I like the "natural stuff" more than synthetic Opiods.
Posted by shasling on January 26, 2009, at 19:58:02
In reply to Re: I'm 100% cured of Social Phobia!!!, posted by bulldog2 on January 26, 2009, at 17:10:49
I wasnt aware gbl was legal anywhere for ingestion,even for non digestive purposes its watched under some sort of scheldule,so gbl id say is not the most important factor in your aresnal but is likly the main factor,without it there would be a tremendous differance.
I posted deep in ghb groups for years,and it is very much possable to obtain.
Also if youre goung the bl route why not add the legal chemicals to use actual ghb?The fact you called it gina tells me you know how to do this easly.
gbl was actualy part of a legal supplement called RENEWTRIENT and was banned,then various names followed till everyone for ingestion was banned and until the ingestion of the substance was banned,however since its use is for many applications getting it is still very possable.
GHB or xyrem probuably would be off labled for anxiety this minute if it werent for a woman named trinka a reitred police office who illegaly harrased a sleep sight taunting xyrem users who really need it.She has made a career off anti ghb,her site project ghb is filled with propganda and you cant even speak your mind at all there unless its pure anti ghb.
When ghb was first discovered it was done so for medical reasons,not date rape reasons,in fact the same man dr.henri laborit who worked with ghb also first brought to the U.S Thorazine which at the time was a godsend as it was a time when barberic psycho surgyss were being used and no one left pysh wards to go home,thorazine stopped the barbaric activity and allowed people to start going home for the first time.Dr henri laborit was obviously intersted in gaba/dopamine.Ghb is very non toxic as it netabolizes to water,gbl is a more rugged version,and does has cons,its faster acting,harder hitting,can destroy teet and skin in mouth if not diluted,and carries impurites since the even though debated the best most will find will be 98 purity holding 2 points of toxins per gram.
Still all and all,social anxiety untreated is more hazadourous then almost any drugs,you become so sick you let your body go.Cheers to ur success
PM me on yahoo brklyn234 id like to chat
Posted by Medline on January 26, 2009, at 20:24:30
In reply to Re: I'm 100% cured of Social Phobia!!!, posted by shasling on January 26, 2009, at 19:58:02
I know how to make GHB and did it years ago, but I don't want to synthesize scheduled drugs. GHB is also controlled in my country, GBL is not. I know of Renewtrient and also about Laborit. I respect him, but his information saying GHB is not addictive was not at all useful. GHB is known here as Alcover for alcohol withdrawals and an anticraving agent, Somsanit for anesthesia and Xyrem for Narcolepsy. Alcohol is the most widely used date rape drug, Benzos too. The project GHB website is really just propaganda s***. The most effective drug for GHB withdrawal is Baclofen IMHO, but not getting physically dependent is a better Option. ;-)
I will chat with you tommorow.
cu
Posted by Medline on January 26, 2009, at 20:26:03
In reply to Re: I'm 100% cured of Social Phobia!!!, posted by Medline on January 26, 2009, at 20:24:30
The GHB newsgroup is useless nowadays, full of spammers and freaks.
Posted by desolationrower on January 26, 2009, at 22:41:58
In reply to Re: I'm 100% cured of Social Phobia!!!, posted by Medline on January 26, 2009, at 20:26:03
i don't see how baclofen will prevent tolerance? its just going to increase rate gabab receptors downregulate.
only other thing i'd be concerned with is ghb use during day might result in less SWS during night.
-d/r
Posted by shasling on January 26, 2009, at 23:36:50
In reply to Re: I'm 100% cured of Social Phobia!!!, posted by Medline on January 26, 2009, at 20:26:03
> The GHB newsgroup is useless nowadays, full of spammers and freaks.
True perhaps there is a reason for that,who knows
i mean groups spin off lots of times like tv shows,cough cough maybe its someelse now.
Posted by Vincent_QC on January 27, 2009, at 6:18:38
In reply to I'm 100% cured of Social Phobia!!!, posted by Medline on January 26, 2009, at 13:16:18
> First of all: Don't try this at home kids! I have year long experience with psychoactive drugs, which I am not really proud of. :-( I've made a lot of mistakes, some of which I could have paid the ultimate price for - my life. Nevertheless giving up wasn't an option for me at any point.
>
> SAD involves dysfunction of the Serotonin-, Dopamine-, GABA-, Oxytocin- and probably Norepinephrine-System.
>
> Fact: about 30-40% of patients do not adequately respond to a treatment with first line agents (SSRIs/SNRIs). These people might be helped by long term Pregabalin/Clonazepam or MAOI-treatment. But some have to be considered "therapy resistent".
>
> Hypothesis: Elevating levels of 5-HT, DA, GABA, NE and Oxytocin in the CNS increases the probability of making a complete recovery. Low dose of the NMDA-antagonist Cycloserine may help to "hardwire" the results in the brain.
>
> My regimen:
>
> 2 x 300mg Moclobemide / day:
>
> Increases levels of Serotonin and Norepinephrine.
>
> 2mg Selegiline / day:
>
> Works on Dopamine, but leaves enough Monoamine Oxidase so that Tyramine can be broken down and no special diet has to be followed.
>
> 4 x 1.5ml of GBL / day:
>
> Non-toxic precursor for GHB, legal in my country (but not in the US!). Increases levels of Oxytocin, GHB and probably GABA-B in the CNS. Potent anxiolytic and empathogen.
>
> 50mg Baclofen / night:
>
> Extremely important! Never take GHB/GBL 24/7 or severe dependence and withdrawal will occur. Baclofen helps with that and you can sleep very well and resftul.
>
> 50mg Cycloserine / day:
>
> May help to make the results permanent.
>
> I take this from Monday-Friday. On weekends I take 2mg Klonopin / day instead of Baclofen and GBL to avoid tolerance and physical dependence.
>
> This cocktail completely kills SA and depression. I've tried all Psychodrugs known to man (SSRIs/SNRIs, tricyclic and atypical ADs, MAOIs, Mood stabilizers, Neuroleptics, Alcohol, Benzos, Phenobarbital, Clomethiazole, Buprenorphine) but nothing works as effectively as this regimen.
>
> What do you think?Don't want to be negative, but for me, it's look like a shopping list...
The 2 x 300mg Moclobemide / day = not a good AD to treat social anxiety...I have a lot of skepticism about it...that's not for nothing if it's not approved in the States...
The 2mg Selegiline / day = Ok...I mean if you need to have some energy.
The 4 x 1.5ml of GBL / day = Not legal in my country...the 2 chimical products to make it are legal...but for me it's just a cheap street drug...and dangerous also...In fact, I try the GHB one time as a street drug...no comment...Benzo drugs are more powerfull than this, you have to mix it with alcohol to feel something...I'm not sure about the tolerance also...look like it will poop-out one of these day and stop working...
50mg Baclofen / night = A muscle relaxant who act as a GABA antagonist ... Hummm a lot of skepticism about this one also. I don't know why so many people point the gaba-B as a good choice or a good target to reduce anxiety, I never get improve on my social phobia from Lyrica or Gabapentin or any others gaba-b drugs... Tolerance also occur after a while with them...
The 50mg Cycloserine / day = An antibiotic ...The human body get used fast of them, you can'T stay on a antibiotic for the rest of your life...
2mg Klonopin on the weekend...hummm very addictive for someone who have social phobia...and tolerance occur often also...and 2 days of holidays between the Baclofen + GBL is not a lot, I mean, to prevent addiction from the Baclofen and the GBL it's too short...the half-life of these products are probably more long than 48 hours...
I think mixing too much drugs like this will make you feel worse with time. The best solution is often the simple ones...Also, try to find a Psychiatrist who will help you to be on this cocktail in the States or the Canada...good luck, especially for the GBL...
Like I already write before, social anxiety can't be cured...but you can find some relief of it with the use of some drugs...but the main part is to learn how to cope with that disease with a good CBT...a lot of exposure time in social events and things like that...Depression can get cured or at least control, co-morbidities who became more and more dominant after a while can be cured (Depression. general anxiety, panic disorder)...but not social phobia...I mean, you can learn to control it but not cured it at 100%...One of these day, something will stop working in your mix...Rivotril, GBL, Baclofen...all potential addictive drugs...The only more stable drugs who will not cause addiction on your list seem to be the Manerix and the Selegiline.
That's what I think. I prefer to have a "partial" answer on one drug at the time like the Nardil, the Parnate or the Marplan...The theory of the elevating levels of 5-HT, DA, GABA, NE and Oxytocin in the CNS increases the probability of making a complete recovery is a so so point of view... I think it's different for everyone also. A lot or research point a lot to the fact that social phobia or others disease like these are genetic...and a lot of people react very well at the first line treatment drugs...other like me don't... the 5-Ht in my case make me worse (weight gain, lack of energy and motivation...), the DA sometimes make me feel more anxious and tend to make me tired, the Gaba-A or B is now an invalid option (benzo drugs don't work on me now and I never react well to gaba-B drugs...just pins and needles sensations from them), NE make my heart race (high blood pressure) and Cycloserine is it suppose to help to augment the Oxytocin level( a hypothalamic hormone) and help for social phobia??? That's really weird...
Anyway...good luck with your cocktail...I just can't imagine living with soo much drugs in my body...
I guest you know what you are doing...and I really hope you will stay cured of the social phobia!!! ;-)
Don't take it badly...I mean maybe it's the GOOD solution for you...All I want is to try to understand everything behind your drugs cocktail...I'm sure some drugs are not a lot usefull and others can be replace with others ones also...so muck possibilities exist now on the market...and the fact that we all react differently on a drug, make your cocktail less suitable for the others...
Well, take care of you ok!!!
Bye!
Vincent ;-)
Posted by JadeKelly on January 27, 2009, at 8:53:27
In reply to Re: I'm 100% cured of Social Phobia!!! » Medline, posted by Vincent_QC on January 27, 2009, at 6:18:38
> > First of all: Don't try this at home kids! I have year long experience with psychoactive drugs, which I am not really proud of. :-( I've made a lot of mistakes, some of which I could have paid the ultimate price for - my life. Nevertheless giving up wasn't an option for me at any point.
> >
> > SAD involves dysfunction of the Serotonin-, Dopamine-, GABA-, Oxytocin- and probably Norepinephrine-System.
> >
> > Fact: about 30-40% of patients do not adequately respond to a treatment with first line agents (SSRIs/SNRIs). These people might be helped by long term Pregabalin/Clonazepam or MAOI-treatment. But some have to be considered "therapy resistent".
> >
> > Hypothesis: Elevating levels of 5-HT, DA, GABA, NE and Oxytocin in the CNS increases the probability of making a complete recovery. Low dose of the NMDA-antagonist Cycloserine may help to "hardwire" the results in the brain.
> >
> > My regimen:
> >
> > 2 x 300mg Moclobemide / day:
> >
> > Increases levels of Serotonin and Norepinephrine.
> >
> > 2mg Selegiline / day:
> >
> > Works on Dopamine, but leaves enough Monoamine Oxidase so that Tyramine can be broken down and no special diet has to be followed.
> >
> > 4 x 1.5ml of GBL / day:
> >
> > Non-toxic precursor for GHB, legal in my country (but not in the US!). Increases levels of Oxytocin, GHB and probably GABA-B in the CNS. Potent anxiolytic and empathogen.
> >
> > 50mg Baclofen / night:
> >
> > Extremely important! Never take GHB/GBL 24/7 or severe dependence and withdrawal will occur. Baclofen helps with that and you can sleep very well and resftul.
> >
> > 50mg Cycloserine / day:
> >
> > May help to make the results permanent.
> >
> > I take this from Monday-Friday. On weekends I take 2mg Klonopin / day instead of Baclofen and GBL to avoid tolerance and physical dependence.
> >
> > This cocktail completely kills SA and depression. I've tried all Psychodrugs known to man (SSRIs/SNRIs, tricyclic and atypical ADs, MAOIs, Mood stabilizers, Neuroleptics, Alcohol, Benzos, Phenobarbital, Clomethiazole, Buprenorphine) but nothing works as effectively as this regimen.
> >
> > What do you think?
>
> Don't want to be negative, but for me, it's look like a shopping list...
>
> The 2 x 300mg Moclobemide / day = not a good AD to treat social anxiety...I have a lot of skepticism about it...that's not for nothing if it's not approved in the States...
>
> The 2mg Selegiline / day = Ok...I mean if you need to have some energy.
>
> The 4 x 1.5ml of GBL / day = Not legal in my country...the 2 chimical products to make it are legal...but for me it's just a cheap street drug...and dangerous also...In fact, I try the GHB one time as a street drug...no comment...Benzo drugs are more powerfull than this, you have to mix it with alcohol to feel something...I'm not sure about the tolerance also...look like it will poop-out one of these day and stop working...
>
> 50mg Baclofen / night = A muscle relaxant who act as a GABA antagonist ... Hummm a lot of skepticism about this one also. I don't know why so many people point the gaba-B as a good choice or a good target to reduce anxiety, I never get improve on my social phobia from Lyrica or Gabapentin or any others gaba-b drugs... Tolerance also occur after a while with them...
>
> The 50mg Cycloserine / day = An antibiotic ...The human body get used fast of them, you can'T stay on a antibiotic for the rest of your life...
>
> 2mg Klonopin on the weekend...hummm very addictive for someone who have social phobia...and tolerance occur often also...and 2 days of holidays between the Baclofen + GBL is not a lot, I mean, to prevent addiction from the Baclofen and the GBL it's too short...the half-life of these products are probably more long than 48 hours...
>
> I think mixing too much drugs like this will make you feel worse with time. The best solution is often the simple ones...Also, try to find a Psychiatrist who will help you to be on this cocktail in the States or the Canada...good luck, especially for the GBL...
>
> Like I already write before, social anxiety can't be cured...but you can find some relief of it with the use of some drugs...but the main part is to learn how to cope with that disease with a good CBT...a lot of exposure time in social events and things like that...Depression can get cured or at least control, co-morbidities who became more and more dominant after a while can be cured (Depression. general anxiety, panic disorder)...but not social phobia...I mean, you can learn to control it but not cured it at 100%...One of these day, something will stop working in your mix...Rivotril, GBL, Baclofen...all potential addictive drugs...The only more stable drugs who will not cause addiction on your list seem to be the Manerix and the Selegiline.
>
> That's what I think. I prefer to have a "partial" answer on one drug at the time like the Nardil, the Parnate or the Marplan...The theory of the elevating levels of 5-HT, DA, GABA, NE and Oxytocin in the CNS increases the probability of making a complete recovery is a so so point of view... I think it's different for everyone also. A lot or research point a lot to the fact that social phobia or others disease like these are genetic...and a lot of people react very well at the first line treatment drugs...other like me don't... the 5-Ht in my case make me worse (weight gain, lack of energy and motivation...), the DA sometimes make me feel more anxious and tend to make me tired, the Gaba-A or B is now an invalid option (benzo drugs don't work on me now and I never react well to gaba-B drugs...just pins and needles sensations from them), NE make my heart race (high blood pressure) and Cycloserine is it suppose to help to augment the Oxytocin level( a hypothalamic hormone) and help for social phobia??? That's really weird...
>
> Anyway...good luck with your cocktail...I just can't imagine living with soo much drugs in my body...
>
> I guest you know what you are doing...and I really hope you will stay cured of the social phobia!!! ;-)
>
> Don't take it badly...I mean maybe it's the GOOD solution for you...All I want is to try to understand everything behind your drugs cocktail...I'm sure some drugs are not a lot usefull and others can be replace with others ones also...so muck possibilities exist now on the market...and the fact that we all react differently on a drug, make your cocktail less suitable for the others...
>
> Well, take care of you ok!!!
>
> Bye!
>
> Vincent ;-)
Hi Vincent!Thank you for posting that. It sounds like its a BIG cocktail working for one person for now, but it concerns me that others would "try this at home" with the possibly of a very unfavorable outcome.
~Jade
PS-Hope it keeps working for you Medline!
Posted by Vincent_QC on January 27, 2009, at 14:00:34
In reply to Re: I'm 100% cured of Social Phobia!!! » Vincent_QC, posted by JadeKelly on January 27, 2009, at 8:53:27
> Hi Vincent!
>
> Thank you for posting that. It sounds like its a BIG cocktail working for one person for now, but it concerns me that others would "try this at home" with the possibly of a very unfavorable outcome.
>
> ~Jade
>
> PS-Hope it keeps working for you Medline!
>Yeah, I hope it will continu to work for Medline...but to be honnest, i'm still keeping writing that no PDoc will agree to give so much drugs to one person...that's a dangerous cocktail!!! Don't try this at home...hummm...well even if I wanted to try it, I will not be able to get all these drugs prescribe by one Doctor...I will haeve to find 4 or 5 Doctors and lie to them...and i'm not interresting on doing that...I already do to often the mistake of don't listening to my Doctor advise and up my dosage of ONE drug... to end with more side-effects than anything else... Anyway....
I'm just curious Jade, what is your dose of PArnate now? And what you add to augment it? You stay with the Ritalin or move on something else?
IF my plan for the Marplan importation fail, I think I will maybe ask for Nardil (cause on me it have less side-effects) and maybe ask for an extra small amount of Selegiline divided in 2 times a day, since it have a really short half-life and also a poor bioviability in the blood...that increase at a maximum of 10% after severals intake of the drugs...mean that it's not very well absorbed by the body and well metabolized...so the 2 doses is maybe a good choice...I still don't know if I can mix 2 maoi's together like this...we will see...but I can't still wait the others 6 days I have before I meet again my PDoc..I feel really bad, worts time of my life I think...Well it's time to move a little bit...I will go take my shower and do something of my evening... even if I feel not very good...even if i'm 33 yo today...even if I have no energy and a migraine...even if I find the life to be very hard for me now... Even if I know some people all around the world suffer more than me and are in a more misery situation...
Thanks and take care of you ok ;-)
Bye!
Vincent ;-)
Posted by JadeKelly on January 27, 2009, at 16:44:43
In reply to Re: I'm 100% cured of Social Phobia!!!, posted by Vincent_QC on January 27, 2009, at 14:00:34
(((((((Vincent))))))First, no answer to this post needed!!!!
Today is your birthday?
Well Happy Birthday to you!!!!
I'm sorry you're having a tough time. It was like that for me but its not forever. I felt like it would be its been so long. You'll get better I promise!!
33 years young??!! Lots of time to work on this and recover. Of course you're tired. But you're taking a shower, getting up, dressed and out, with a migraine? I'd say thats pretty darn good. So have fun and DO NOT ANSWER THIS! ;-)
Be nice to yourself!! You are a good person!!
You are doing the best you can. Thats enough!!Love, Jade
Posted by Medline on January 27, 2009, at 18:35:51
In reply to Re: I'm 100% cured of Social Phobia!!! » Medline, posted by Vincent_QC on January 27, 2009, at 6:18:38
> The 2 x 300mg Moclobemide / day = not a good AD to treat social anxiety...I have a lot of skepticism about it...that's not for nothing if it's not approved in the States...
The RIMA Moclobemide is not as effectiv as MAOIs, but it's easier to handle and safer as no diet restrictions have to be followed. Could you explain your sceptimism? Do you think it is dangerous? MAOIs are approved and altough pretty safe, they are more dangerous than Moclobemide.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12131599
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9177952
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1393304> The 2mg Selegiline / day = Ok...I mean if you need to have some energy.
I need the Dopamine! By combining Moclobemide with low dose Selegiline I don't have to follow diet restrictions and have a robust antidepressive effect. Not as strong as with classical MAOIs probably, but definitely stronger than with Moclobemide alone.> The 4 x 1.5ml of GBL / day = Not legal in my country...the 2 chimical products to make it are legal...but for me it's just a cheap street drug...and dangerous also...In fact, I try the GHB one time as a street drug...no comment...Benzo drugs are more powerfull than this, you have to mix it with alcohol to feel something...I'm not sure about the tolerance also...look like it will poop-out one of these day and stop working...
You know everything about GHB because you used it once (at least what you thought was GHB). You bought it illegaly on the street and took it not knowing what dose it is? Then you recommend combining Benzos with the "cheap street drug" alcohol. Very responsible, thank you for the tip!
> 50mg Baclofen / night = A muscle relaxant who act as a GABA antagonist ... Hummm a lot of skepticism about this one also. I don't know why so many people point the gaba-B as a good choice or a good target to reduce anxiety, I never get improve on my social phobia from Lyrica or Gabapentin or any others gaba-b drugs... Tolerance also occur after a while with them...
It's a GABA agonist, not an antagonist (which is the complete opposite). Pregabalin (Lyrica) and Gabapentin (Neurontin) are NOT GABAergic drugs. Baclofen has anxiolytic proberties and helps me not using GBL at night.
>The 50mg Cycloserine / day = An antibiotic ...The human body get used fast of them, you can'T stay on a antibiotic for the rest of your life...
For tuberculosis 10x-20x higher doses are used than for fear extinction. It doesn't act as an antibiotic at just 50mg. And it's not to be taken forever.
> 2mg Klonopin on the weekend...hummm very addictive for someone who have social phobia...and tolerance occur often also...and 2 days of holidays between the Baclofen + GBL is not a lot, I mean, to prevent addiction from the Baclofen and the GBL it's too short...the half-life of these products are probably more long than 48 hours...
First you recommend Benzos then you wish them to hell. Benzodiazepine tolerance and dependence does not occur when someone just takes it on weekends. 48 hours+ is the completely wrong answer by the way. Baclofen has a mean half-life of 3.5 hours. GBL has a half-life of 3-5 minutes and it's about 30-40 minutes for it's metabolite GHB which is undetectable in blood or plasma after about 6-8 hours.
> I think mixing too much drugs like this will make you feel worse with time. The best solution is often the simple ones...Also, try to find a Psychiatrist who will help you to be on this cocktail in the States or the Canada...good luck, especially for the GBL...
I don't live in Canada ;-). I think the dose makes the poison and for many drugs I use very low doses. For spasticity up to 300mg of oral Baclofen are prescibed, my maximum is 50. Selegiline is used in doses up to 20-30mg and for therapy-resistant depressives 60mg have been tried, I take 2mg! Cycloserine I take 1/20-1/10 of the usual anti-tuberculosis dose and 4mg Klonopin / week is not much too.> Like I already write before, social anxiety can't be cured...but you can find some relief of it with the use of some drugs...but the main part is to learn how to cope with that disease with a good CBT...a lot of exposure time in social events and things like that...Depression can get cured or at least control, co-morbidities who became more and more dominant after a while can be cured (Depression. general anxiety, panic disorder)...but not social phobia...I mean, you can learn to control it but not cured it at 100%...One of these day, something will stop working in your mix...Rivotril, GBL, Baclofen...all potential addictive drugs...The only more stable drugs who will not cause addiction on your list seem to be the Manerix and the Selegiline.
We will see if they stop working. :-). Maybe the Cycloserine has made the results permanent until then.
> That's what I think. I prefer to have a "partial" answer on one drug at the time like the Nardil, the Parnate or the Marplan...The theory of the elevating levels of 5-HT, DA, GABA, NE and Oxytocin in the CNS increases the probability of making a complete recovery is a so so point of view... I think it's different for everyone also. A lot or research point a lot to the fact that social phobia or others disease like these are genetic...and a lot of people react very well at the first line treatment drugs...other like me don't... the 5-Ht in my case make me worse (weight gain, lack of energy and motivation...), the DA sometimes make me feel more anxious and tend to make me tired, the Gaba-A or B is now an invalid option (benzo drugs don't work on me now and I never react well to gaba-B drugs...just pins and needles sensations from them), NE make my heart race (high blood pressure) and Cycloserine is it suppose to help to augment the Oxytocin level( a hypothalamic hormone) and help for social phobia??? That's really weird...
What has the partial NMDA-agonist Cycloserine to do with Oxytocin?!? GABA-B drugs you never tried, Pregabalin and Gabapentin are not GABAergic as I already wrote. Moclobemide is not known to cause Tachycardia when used in normal doses. It's more drugs that inhibit NE reuptake like Reboxetine. Future antidepressants will be triple reuptake inhibitors elevating the levels of 5-HT, NE, DA which is problably a better strategy than just raising the level of one of them.
> Anyway...good luck with your cocktail...I just can't imagine living with soo much drugs in my body...
Dose makes the poison. ;-) Selegiline for example increases lifespan of several animal species by inducing potent antioxidant enzymes.
Take care of you too, have a nice birthday!
Posted by kingcolon on January 27, 2009, at 23:16:33
In reply to @Vincent, posted by Medline on January 27, 2009, at 18:35:51
I have MDD and SAD. I'm impressed at your cocktail and knowledge of the mechanisms of action of all the drugs. Your reasoning makes sense, but I wonder about whether small doses in combination will really result in additive effects--eg, selegiline in low doses probably isn't very effective for depression and by inference, SAD, and meclobimide is also weak for SAD, so the combo seems to me might be weak.
That said, I myself use polypharmacy. I'm on:
buprenorphine, Zoloft, Wellbutrin, Provigil, Lamictal, and now I'm adding Lyrica, 600mg/d.
The Lyrica seems to be producing a pro=social effect, mild but definite. Buprenorphine has essentially eliminated my depression, given me a sense of well-being, and I think it has made me more assertive. I'm taking the Wellbutrin for its' noradrenergic effects, and Zoloft because I became irritable on buprenorphine. The PRovigil helps with fatigue. Lamictal helped with my depression initially, but I'm not sure it's doing anything beneficial in the combo now. I'm wondering if antagonizing glutamate (which it does) might decrease dopamine release caused by the buprenorphine and Wellbutrin. I can't make sense of NMDA/glutamate-dopamine interactions from reading the literature.I used to take GBL and became addicted to it with severe withdrawal. I also had other addiction problems with sedatives, but actually not that badly with opioids (I did abuse them intermittently however in binges). I'm taking the buprenorphine for it's antidepressant effects. I've been in treatment for addiction for 9 years and abstinent throughout thanks to the help I"ve gotten from my "nonaddictive" cocktail. Seriously though, relief of my depression, and to a lesser extent, SAD, is the reason I've beaten the addiction. I truly believe that new agents for addiction treatment will often best be those that mimic the addictive substance's mood altering effects, but without the euphoria or dependency-producing actions. Buprenorphine is one of those, Provigil another, and Lyrica has mood effects not dissimilar to benzodiazepines. None of these drugs has significant addictive potential. I actually much prefer just feeling good to feeling high.
Good luck in your search to beat SAD. If you have any comments or suggestions, feel free to respond.
Posted by Medline on January 28, 2009, at 4:04:43
In reply to Re: @Vincent » Medline, posted by kingcolon on January 27, 2009, at 23:16:33
Very nice stack you have there. Great to hear you're doing well. ;-) I'm not sure the Lamotrigine is beneficial, maybe you should ask your Pdoc if you can taper it down? Or do you have moodswings, hypomania, Borderline disorder or something like that? Combining the NDRI Bupropion with low-interaction SSRIs like sertraline, citalopram or escitalopram is a great strategy I think. They offset each others side effects and the AD-effect is very robust, there are some studies out there proving that this combo is a good one. I used Modafinil and Bupropion (in combination with Escitalopram) but unluckily they cause too much anxiety for me. Low dose Buprenorphine is great for some people with treatment resistant depression from what I read. I tried it, but felt nothing (also "intoxicating doses"). Tramadol, Codeine, DHC do nothing for me too, I don't know why. ;-)
Maybe you should really think about kicking the Lamictal out when you have Pregabalin now.
I will modify my regimen soon and substitute Moclobemide with Escitalopram. It has more proven efficiency, is potent, fast-acting and has very low interaction potential. I don't think that the Norepinephrine the Moclobemide provides is very important for SA, I think it's more a Serotonin, Dopamine, GABA story (and probably Oxytocin, Endorphins...).
2 x Escitalopram 10mg
1 x low dose Selegiline 2.5-5mg twice per week
4 x Gamma-Butyro-Lactone 1.5ml
1 x low dose Cycloserine 50mg (taken for 2-4 months)At night:
1 x low dose Baclofen 25mg
1 x low dose Naltrexone 5mg (to avoid opioid receptor downgrade)On weekends: 2mg Clonazepam instead of GBL & Baclofen. Higher dose of Naltrexone (25mg on saturday) and 12.5mg on Sunday.
@Vincent:
I just read my last post again and it sounds a bit rude at daylight. Sorry! Have a great Birthday.
Posted by bleauberry on January 28, 2009, at 17:41:08
In reply to I'm 100% cured of Social Phobia!!!, posted by Medline on January 26, 2009, at 13:16:18
That is very awesome you are feeling so much better. It's hard to argue with results. I wish for you the best of times ahead and full productive days. Take advantage of the time. If I had the power I would wish that for eveyone recovered it would last an eternity. I don't have that power, but I do have that wish for you.
I am curious. Could you answer me some questions. I am just always curious of the journey that got someone to the jackpot. I like to look at and study the journey.
In which order did you start the drugs? You know, which came first, which second, or all started at the same time, or whatever.
What doses did you do to arrive at the final doses?
What changing of doses did you do to tweek the cocktail to its best?
How long did it take to reach full recovery?
Posted by Vincent_QC on January 28, 2009, at 23:09:06
In reply to @Vincent, posted by Medline on January 27, 2009, at 18:35:51
*****************************************************************************************************
The RIMA Moclobemide is not as effectiv as MAOIs, but it's easier to handle and safer as no diet restrictions have to be followed. Could you explain your sceptimism? Do you think it is dangerous? MAOIs are approved and altough pretty safe, they are more dangerous than Moclobemide.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12131599
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9177952
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1393304You know everything about GHB because you used it once (at least what you thought was GHB). You bought it illegaly on the street and took it not knowing what dose it is? Then you recommend combining Benzos with the "cheap street drug" alcohol. Very responsible, thank you for the tip!
It's a GABA agonist, not an antagonist (which is the complete opposite). Pregabalin (Lyrica) and Gabapentin (Neurontin) are NOT GABAergic drugs. Baclofen has anxiolytic proberties and helps me not using GBL at night.
>The 50mg Cycloserine / day = An antibiotic ...The human body get used fast of them, you can'T stay on a antibiotic for the rest of your life...
For tuberculosis 10x-20x higher doses are used than for fear extinction. It doesn't act as an antibiotic at just 50mg. And it's not to be taken forever.
First you recommend Benzos then you wish them to hell. Benzodiazepine tolerance and dependence does not occur when someone just takes it on weekends. 48 hours+ is the completely wrong answer by the way. Baclofen has a mean half-life of 3.5 hours. GBL has a half-life of 3-5 minutes and it's about 30-40 minutes for it's metabolite GHB which is undetectable in blood or plasma after about 6-8 hours.
I don't live in Canada ;-). I think the dose makes the poison and for many drugs I use very low doses. For spasticity up to 300mg of oral Baclofen are prescibed, my maximum is 50. Selegiline is used in doses up to 20-30mg and for therapy-resistant depressives 60mg have been tried, I take 2mg! Cycloserine I take 1/20-1/10 of the usual anti-tuberculosis dose and 4mg Klonopin / week is not much too.
We will see if they stop working. :-). Maybe the Cycloserine has made the results permanent until then.
What has the partial NMDA-agonist Cycloserine to do with Oxytocin?!? GABA-B drugs you never tried, Pregabalin and Gabapentin are not GABAergic as I already wrote. Moclobemide is not known to cause Tachycardia when used in normal doses. It's more drugs that inhibit NE reuptake like Reboxetine. Future antidepressants will be triple reuptake inhibitors elevating the levels of 5-HT, NE, DA which is problably a better strategy than just raising the level of one of them.
Dose makes the poison. ;-) Selegiline for example increases lifespan of several animal species by inducing potent antioxidant enzymes.
Take care of you too, have a nice birthday!
******************************************************************************************************
Hi Medline ;-)
That's ok...you was not rude...I have to admit that English is not my mother tongue and that's take me a lot of concentration to write a message on this board in english...I have no concentration and a lot pf memory problems since a little while and also a lack of energy...so I tend to not correct the mistakes I do before I push the "send" button....Sometimes my sentences are not well constructed so it's maybe why you don't understand some little things I wrote in my last post...I will try to explain it again...more well this time...lol
I don't want to argue with you about the results you have...I mean, that's very nice and i'm happy for you...and to see someone with the same disease that the one I have, and see that he achieve a remission state give me a lot of hope!!!
The bad things is that in my country, most of these drugs are not avaible (Exception of the Manerix and the Selegiline) or I will never be albe to get a PDoc or a Doctor and get them prescribted to me (Baclofen) because we have a limited choice of drugs and also not a lot of PDoc who want to take any chances with off-label uses of drugs to treat some disease like social phobia...
You know...If I had write my message in french yesterday...i'm sure all of this will never occur... In french I know what agonist and antagonist mean, I understand the principle behind all of these medical terms...I also understant inhibition also others terms like these...I just don'T take the time to write it well in english...
I was aware of the difference between the Baclofen and the Gabapentin or the Lyrica...I just didn't know how to explain it in english...
I ask my PDoc about the Baclofen and he denied the fact that he was appropriate in the treatment of the social phobia...he said that he never read any study about this... I should print your message and bring it to him! hahaha
I'm lucky because I found a PDoc who use MAOI's...and with my family doctor, I was able to explore more than just the usual Effexor-Xr drugs...I had severals tries of differents kinds of drugs...but it's another exceptional case...most of the others PDocs or Doctors I had before never wanted to put me on a MAOI...
In fact, all of them seem to not be aware of the existence of the Emsam patch...so you can see how it'w working here...I'm not able to get some Trazodone as a sleep aid when I take a MAOI...because the PDoc read it was dangerous for the Serotonin sydrome....but on this board, a lot of people get Trazodone as a sleep aid with the Parnate or the NArdil...so you understand why I was sepktical about your drugs cocktail...I just wanted to said that in my country, I will never be able to get all of this to be treat...
I have to find a single drug to do everything...or at least, the minimum amout of them (AD + something for the energy and something to help me to sleep at night)...it's the maximum I will be able to find and achieve...
I understant also the RIMA (Manerix) and how it's work...my last prescription from my PDoc was for the Manerix ...I take it only 3 days and I had to stop because I had an untolerable migraine that never fade away and an increasement of my anxiety, so I had to increase my Valium intake...so I just stop...I don't want to increase my Valium intake, since my goal is to be stable on a good AD's and stop the Valium...and never toutch a benzo drugs again in my life...I get addicted fast on them and got hospitalised last summer for a Xanax high addiction (more than 12mg/day)...so believe me, it was not easy to withdraw the Xanax and return on my low dose of Valium (20mg/day)...
Another point, I don't write that use benzo drugs with alcohol was a good things...I was just trying to explain that I found the GHB to be more effective if it's blend with the alcohol...alone it's just not very powerfull on me...and YES, I BUY IT from a drug DEALER since in the CANADA the GHB is not legal...they don'T sell it at the drugstore...so we have no choice and I don't know what was the exact dose...but I take only half of the dose I buy... and I feel nothing so I Take the other half after...for me it was not very effective, probably because I Was already on a high dose of Rivotril at the time (8 mg/day)...I never pretend that I know everything about the GHB...I don't even now what is the GLB... Anyway, it's not legal here, I don't even think about trying it to treat my social phobia...
I agree about the fact that the Manerix is less dangerous than other old MAOI's like the PArnate or the Nardil...and have less impact on the blood pressure and no food interraction....but for me it was not the good AD...too much anxiety and headache on it...
With the Parnate , I had too much high blood pressure problems and physical fatigue...and the Nardil was ok...but It was not very effective for social phobia...at 75mg/day...after 3 months...IT's why I want to try it again if the Marplan importation fail...at a more high dosage...something like 90 or 105mg/day...
The Manerix remember me a lot the Prozac effect at 30mg and more...a lot of anxiety, headache and daytime sedation at the same time, even if I was felling more excited on it...I hate that energy feeling that worse the anxiety... What i'm looking for, is something who will give me a positive energy level in the daytime, without worsing my social anxiety or my general anxiety...
If you search on this board...I write often that I Was addicted to benzo drugs...I never write that I wish them to hell...For some people they can be very helpfull...but for me since I begin to use them my life and my health state is just worse...Yeah, I had a good answer the first month I was on the Rivotril...but I became addicted really fast...the half-life of the Rivotril is between 18-50 hours in the blood...that's enought to develop an addiction...I think...but the worst are the short half life like the Xanax...very addictive...IF you don'T had in the past addiction problem on alcohol or street drugs, you are probably in the group of people who will never fall addicted to the benzo drugs...me i'm not lucky...I get addicted on a lot of substances in my life...alcohol and drugs...so no wonder why I had to double the dose after 1 month, double it another time after 3 months and double it again to end up at 8mg/day of Rivotril...and at this high dose, I never feel a relief of my anxiety or my social anxiety...it was just worse and worse...I think the depression is mainly due to the use of the benzo drugs in my case...Anyway, I succeed to withdraw to 2 mg in 3 months and switch to the Valium at 20mg...but the withdraw process always scare me because I always fear to have seizures...so I can't just stop them for now...
I was always able to stop cold turkey all the drugs I used...all the AD's, all the antipsychotics or anticonvulsives...but I was never able to stop a benzo drug for a more long time period of 2 weeks...without having a big return of anxiety and panic attacks.... I'm just addicted and I have to learn to live without this little pills...that's not easy...Anyway...sorry for the poor english, it's late here and i'm tired as hell...
For now, even if last summer I had a bad experience with the Xanax....I stay at 20mg/day of Valium...it's the only one drug I take...I meet my PDoc next week...we plan to import in the Canada some Marplan (another MAOI not avaible in the Canada)... We talk also about the Emsam patch...but that's very expensive so I will not be able to try it...it's why I want to ask him about trying just the oral Selegiline, something like 5 mg/day...at the same time than the Marplan or the Nardil if I can't have the Marplan...Do you think I can't take 2 MAOI's at the same time???
Anyway...for the Cycloserine, I just write that the human body get used fast of all the antibiotic, even in a small dose...I use one for my intestine (Flagil) and I have to double the dosage recently because it was not effective anymore...
Well...the important is that you know what you are doing and that you are feeling well on it...that's it!!! I'm very civilized and i'm not the kind of guy who want to fight with everyone...i'm normally really quiet in fact...and shy...I read your message this morning and I think of it all day long...I was not sure about what to answer...I feel a lot of aggressivity behind your message and that's not what I wanted...
It's just that we live in different country, and we have our experiences and we share it here...I try to find the good drugs for me...you find the good ones for you...since we are all different, I don'T think that a magical reciepe exist for everyone and can be apply to everyone with the same disease...
Anyway...I wish you good luck...;-)
Have a nice day!
Vincent ;-)
Posted by medline on January 28, 2009, at 23:56:14
In reply to Re: @Vincent, posted by Vincent_QC on January 28, 2009, at 23:09:06
Hi Vincent!
You seem to be a really nice person, thank you for this long and great answer. ;-)
I don't have much time, but just one important thing: Please never ever combine GHB with other downers like 8mg clonazepam or alcohol. This is extremely dangerous even if your body is tolerant to the Benzo effect. It can and has resulted in severe respiratory depression and death. Please don't do it.
Take care of you!
Medline
Posted by desolationrower on January 29, 2009, at 12:42:27
In reply to Re: @Vincent, posted by medline on January 28, 2009, at 23:56:14
its quite possible the combination of manerix and deprenyl would be much more like a traditional MAOI, because it reduces possibility of enzymes metabolizing non-preferred substrates...i like the idea, since the reversability gives some saftey margin witn tryamin...
-d/r
Posted by medline on January 29, 2009, at 13:45:42
In reply to Re: @Vincent, posted by desolationrower on January 29, 2009, at 12:42:27
You could also combine an irreversible MAOI with the NARI Reboxetine to achieve that.
Posted by shasling on January 30, 2009, at 13:09:35
In reply to Re: @Vincent, posted by medline on January 28, 2009, at 23:56:14
GHB is for emergencys only,it is not a valid med therputic option.Why?simple a dot more in a dose can get you high as a kite.
GHB aims at getting you high,i know all the arguments for it,but i use it,and even though i use it personaly its only till i find something to help me,but i know it makes me high and intoxicated and its simply not a therputic tool.
Posted by medline on January 30, 2009, at 17:06:26
In reply to Re: @Vincent, posted by shasling on January 30, 2009, at 13:09:35
A too high dose of a Benzodiazepine can make people look drunk and act weird. Does that mean a correct dose is not a valid therapeutic option. Too much Adderall can get people high too. I don't feel intoxicated at all, other persons don't know I am taking anything. 3-4 beers @0.5l are worse and drank daily are much more toxic to the human body.
Posted by Vincent_QC on January 31, 2009, at 10:30:55
In reply to Re: @Vincent, posted by medline on January 28, 2009, at 23:56:14
> Hi Vincent!
>
> You seem to be a really nice person, thank you for this long and great answer. ;-)
>
> I don't have much time, but just one important thing: Please never ever combine GHB with other downers like 8mg clonazepam or alcohol. This is extremely dangerous even if your body is tolerant to the Benzo effect. It can and has resulted in severe respiratory depression and death. Please don't do it.
>
> Take care of you!
>
> MedlineThanks for the advise...I Will never use the GHB again...don't worry ;-) I'm not into street drugs now...I'm sober since june 2006...mean that I Don't drink or use any others things...exception of legal drugs like Valium and AD's...
When I start my Rivotril back in 2005, I developp a strong alcohol problem...I Was always drunk at night...always on the Party...I drink and use high dose of Rivotril for 1 year maybe....maximum...I stop drinking cold turkey in june 2006...but I Was not aware of the danger of the Benzo + alcohol...so I play with my life often without knowing that it was dangerous... My Doctor told me after that I Was lucky to don'T encounter any problems in that 1 year period of time...
I don't recommend the use of Benzo + alcohol...Strangely, since I stop drinking alcohol cold turkey, I have always a small headache...and once a week a big migraine...I don't know if it can be linked or not with the alcohol and the benzo together...but I know that drinking while I was on benzo drugs make my addiction of benzo pills worse...that's probably why I had to incrase my benzo drugs dose often to reach a high dose of 8mg/day of Rivotril, without feeling any anti-anxiety action...
Anyway...long story for nothing, I just repeat myself...Take care of you ok !!! ;-)
Have a nice day!
Vincent ;-)
PS: For -d/r...one short question, did you know if I Can add a small dose of Selegiline (5mg) with the Nardil??? just to give me some energy at daytime??? Did you know if adding something who is pro gabaenergic like Gabatril will help also??? Since Gabatril is not avaible in the Canada, maybe you have another solution to give to me...something who act like a gaba-agonist...who help me more than drugs like Neurontin or Lyrica????
Thanks for your answer mister!!! ;-)
Posted by medline on January 31, 2009, at 11:54:33
In reply to Re: -d/r (One question), posted by Vincent_QC on January 31, 2009, at 10:30:55
Great that your sober! Regarding the Selegiline: This combination is contraindicated, I think the risk of a hypertensive crisis is elevated. I wouldn't take Phenelzine + Selegiline. If you want a more energizing agent you could try Parnate. You could also slowly and carefully add Modafinil to the Nardil.
I know that Tiagabine (Gabatril) is a GABA reuptake inhibitor, sometimes used off-label for anxiety. As a metabolite of Phenelzine is a potent GABA transaminase inhibitor (increases brain GABA levels) it could act synergistically with Tiagabine (and the Klonopin/Rivotril). But if you want more energy this could be counterproductive. I think Picamilon (GABA bond to Niacin) or Phenibut (pretty much like Baclofen, but some GABA-A agonism too) could help you without sedating. I have to ask again ;-) - have you tried Parnate?
Have you thought about slowly tappering the Klonopin?
Have a great day, Medline
Posted by Vincent_QC on January 31, 2009, at 12:51:30
In reply to Re: -d/r (One question), posted by medline on January 31, 2009, at 11:54:33
> Great that your sober! Regarding the Selegiline: This combination is contraindicated, I think the risk of a hypertensive crisis is elevated. I wouldn't take Phenelzine + Selegiline. If you want a more energizing agent you could try Parnate. You could also slowly and carefully add Modafinil to the Nardil.
>
> I know that Tiagabine (Gabatril) is a GABA reuptake inhibitor, sometimes used off-label for anxiety. As a metabolite of Phenelzine is a potent GABA transaminase inhibitor (increases brain GABA levels) it could act synergistically with Tiagabine (and the Klonopin/Rivotril). But if you want more energy this could be counterproductive. I think Picamilon (GABA bond to Niacin) or Phenibut (pretty much like Baclofen, but some GABA-A agonism too) could help you without sedating. I have to ask again ;-) - have you tried Parnate?
>
> Have you thought about slowly tappering the Klonopin?
>
> Have a great day, Medline
Actually, i'm only on 20mg/day of Valium...I succeed to withdraw my Rivotril dosage from 8mg to 2 mg and I asked in the summer of 2007 to switch to the Valium, since it have a more half-life in the blood...so no need to pop-up a pill every 4 hours...like I do on the Rivotril before...So when I switched from the Rovitril 2mg to Valium, I used the Ashtonn Book conversion table...so 2mg Rivotril was the same as 40mg of Valium... At 40mg of Valium I had strong sedation at first but it fade away after 2 weeks...The valium never work well for social anxiety...but well the Rivotril at the end was not helpfull also...The main goal was to withdraw all the benzo drugs I taken at the time...So after 2 years i'm at 20mg of Valium, I use it just in case...it's like a prevention pills...I don't feel any effect from it, but if I don't take it, I feel a strange sensation in my head, like someone push my brain with his two hands...I fear a lot the seizure that often occurs when someone stop cold turkey the benzo drugs...
Someday, I use only 10mg, sometimes it's 20mg...since 3 weeks (i'm off any AD's...)...I use more than 20mg....up to 30mg...but all of this occur naturally...I never think about taking my pills...I just take them because i'm used off...
In 4 years of use of the benzo drugs, I was 3 weeks free in the summer of 2007...I had a major panic attack when I Was driving the car, I had some pills in my pocket so I pop-up one and I start them again...anyway...benzo drugs FOR ME, is the worst drug in the world...very effective at fisrt but also very addictive...probably related to my past addiction with drugs when I was a teenager and also the alcohol problem...Some people never developp tolerance on them BTW...
Now for the Parnate...I had a strong reaction on it...I do 1 month at 30-40mg/day...last december and begining of january 2009...I had to stop because I begin to do high blood pressure without any food interraction...spontaneous hypertensives crisis like they call them...I had to use 6 times the emergency pills (Apo-Nifed : Nifepidine) to reduce my blood pressure (220/90-100)...
I stop it 3 weeks ago...because I had to much physical fatigue...and heart problems on it...and since then, my blood pressure never return to the normal rate I had before (110/60)...
I was on the Nardil for 3 months, 75mg and 2 weeks at 90mg...in the begining of 2007...I never had a strong relief of my social anxiety on it...but it's when I succeed to reduce my rivotril dosage...I Was using them less often...I didn't notice it at the time, but now I know that it was probably a good effect on my social anxiety...
I had the same kind of reaction on the Parnate also, I was able to reduce my Valium intake on it...In fact, I was forgetted to take them... and on the Parnate, I din't feel the strange sensation in my head when I forget to take my Valium pills...so in a way, it was effective on my social anxiety i'm sure...too bad I Was not able to tolerate the high blood pressure it give to me...
Since then, my PDoc put me on the Manerix (RIMA), I do only 3 days on it, I had a terrible increasement of my anxiety...social or general anxiety and a strong migraine that never fade away...So I just stop...
The next step is to try the Marplan...It's not avaible in my Country (Canada), so me and my PDoc wanted to import it in the Canada...I found some informations on the whole process...I see my PDoc next week and we will talk about it...My PDoc talk also about the Emsam patch...but they are expensive and he is not sure where he can obtain them also...
So for now, I think I will ask to return on the Nardil...anyway the time to import and recieve the Marplan pills will be probably long...so we will see...maybe my second try on the Nardil will be better, since I take less benzo drugs...and my life for now is reduce to sleep at daytime, try to move my *ss a little bit at night and go to see the only friend I have...just to go out of my house...I don'T work and I stop the university...When I try the Nardil in 2007, I was living in another big city, I had no friends there, I had courses at the university, big works and oral presentations to do, and I was addicted to the Rivotril...now that's completly different...
On the Nardil, I also had a lot of hypotension orthostatic...it's why I stop the Nardil in 2007, I was afraid of this...and not used to this side-effects... On the Parnate, the hypotension orthostatic appear at 20mg/day...and I had severals episodes of low blood pressure also...and now I know it's not dangerous and I know also that some "Florinef" pills can make the hypotension orthostatic less harder...In fact, I think that if I had waited another 2 weeks on my first try of the nardil, probably this side-effects will had disepear...but I Was not aware about the fact that it was frequent as a side-effect, so I just freaking out and stop it...
The main problem with the Parnate was the high blood pressure...it's maybe related to his strong NE activity... and it's similarity in his structure of stimulants drugs... I think the Emsam patch hit more the MAO-B...so probably more the DA... so I Really don't know who I will react...The MAnerix was more acting on the MAO-A...and the Narcil seem to be more hard on the SE with the gaba-energic effect...
So i'm confuse a little bit...Like my PDoc told me, I seem to answer well for my social phobia to the MAOI's drugs, but he don'T know why the Nardil for example, never give me high blood pressure...and why I Was not able to tolerate the Parnate...For the Manerix, It's seem that i'm the only one who encounter the increasement of anxiety and migraine when I use it...normally, people don'T have side-effect on it , they don'T feel anything from it in fact...so that'S really strange...
I'm not an expert, but i'm sure combining the Nardil with something to help me for my energy level at daytime, without worsing my anxiety level will be very helpfull...
For the Modafinil, it's not cover by the public insurrance here...and it's very expensive...so i'm not sure...I ask for small dose of Adderall-XR before I try the Parnate and my PDoc refuse...telling me that it will increase my anxiety level...but the other PDoc I had before him give to me some Ritalin in addition to the Cipralex I was taking at the time without any problems...but the Ritalin fail to give me some energy, even at 15mg or 20mg...I only have strange sensations like hot ears (red and really hot) and more focus on what happen around me...but no more energy..
Well that'S it...another time, I write to many things...and I probably contradict myself 100 times again...lol I'm so confuse since a little while, I feel like I live in a dream...I try so many pills and combo and cocktail of drugs that I think i'm really not sure witch ones make a good effec on me or not...One thing is sure, i'm not answering to any newer drugs like the SSRI'S or the SRNI's...and to anticonvulsives drugs like GAbapentin or Lyrica...
The only things I never try are the mood stabilizer like Lithium or Lamictal...
And you're right, I don'T need something to make me feel more tired at day time so maybe the Gabatril option was not a very good idea from myself... I already have some benzo in my drugs regiment, I don'T need other drugs who will make me tired at daytime...
One thing is sure also, my new PDoc will never allow me to have a stimulant with a MAOI...it's why I ask about the Selegiline oral alone or in a combo at low dose for the Nardil...
Anyway, I will be fix more on the avaible options I have left in front of me next tuesday afternoon...and I will keep people update here...
Thanks for your advise mister!!!
Take care of you!
Vincent ;-)
Posted by medline on January 31, 2009, at 13:04:28
In reply to Re: -d/r (One question) » medline, posted by Vincent_QC on January 31, 2009, at 12:51:30
Aggressively treating MAOI hypertensive crisis with Nifedpine is risky, can cause heart attacks... but it worked out for you, great. I'm kind of clueless on how to help you. One thing that sometimes works great when everything else fails is combining Adderall XR with Klonopin. Of course you would have to come off the MAOI first. And as a previous Benzo addict, it's probably not a good idea to take Klonopin again. You would have to make periodic breaks to avoid becoming dependent. Another strategy is combining the NDRI Bupropion with a good, low-interaction SSRI like Escitalopram.
Posted by Vincent_QC on January 31, 2009, at 17:16:36
In reply to Re: -d/r (One question), posted by medline on January 31, 2009, at 13:04:28
> Aggressively treating MAOI hypertensive crisis with Nifedpine is risky, can cause heart attacks... but it worked out for you, great. I'm kind of clueless on how to help you. One thing that sometimes works great when everything else fails is combining Adderall XR with Klonopin. Of course you would have to come off the MAOI first. And as a previous Benzo addict, it's probably not a good idea to take Klonopin again. You would have to make periodic breaks to avoid becoming dependent. Another strategy is combining the NDRI Bupropion with a good, low-interaction SSRI like Escitalopram.
Hi mister!
Hummm....Nifedpine is not that dangerous is you take it only in emergency case, mean than your bloof pressure is higher than 200/90-???... The 10mg pills I had was xtrange...I wasn't able to cut them and inside it was a liquid that tasting citrus... So what I do each time is to take a knife and make open it and drink the liquid...so i suppose I don't had all the 10mg dose each time I use it...but it was ok...my blood pressure always return around the 140/80-90 after 2 hours...SInce I had a blood pressure machine , it was easy for me to monitoring alone my blood pressure and make sure everyghint is fine... What I can't understand, it's why I do a lot of hypotension orthostatic at the same time than I was doing high blood pressure...that's a mystery...On the Nardil, my blood pressure was always low...I had to add salt in everything I was eating to be sure to have a blood pressure around 100/50-60... But the Parnate make my heart beat so hard...I mean, it must have something inside it that causing this effect on me... Or like my PDoc think, i'm to sensible to the NE effect that the Parnate seem to act the most...or hit first at a low dosage...
Anyway...I try last fall a combo...20mg of Cipralex (Lexapro: Escitalopram) with 300mg/day of Wellbutrin-SR...no energy at all on that combo, it was worst in fact... I try it just after the Lexapro + Ritalin fail... In fact, the Lexapro (Escitalopram) is maybe low in interraction with others agents...but alone, it have a lot of side-effects....the first one is the weight gain, the other one is the SEDATION...the lack of motivation and energy and no effect at all on the depression or the social phobia... I Try also the Celexa(citalopram) at dose of 40mg and 60mg...and nothing...I never answer to a SSRI drug, exception to the Paxil when I was more young and at a high dose of 60mg/day... but it stop workiong after 4 years...and by working I mean a really small reduction of my social phobia and panic attack with agoraphobia...but it never work for the depression at all... The same apply for the Effexor-XR...since I got a gastric by-pass, I can't digest all the pills...the same apply to the Cymbalta because it's made with the same small rounds marbles inside...The only one SSRI I never try was the Luvox...but my new PDoc told me that if I never answer well to any SSRI, especially to the Lexapro, it will be just another lost of time try... HE said that he call that drug the nausea drug cause it give only this as a side effect and nothing very helpfull for social phobia or anxiety...but it's very helpfull for OCD, that's what he said...
For the Adderall-XR...like I Was writing to you, it's not cover by insurrance, I don'T work so forget it...anyway my new PDoc don't want to try it, the same apply to the Provigil (Modafinil)...powerfull stimulants like Adderall or the cheap one (cover by inssurance) Dexedrine, it's not very helpfull for social phobia and anxiety in general, that's what my PDoc think... I try the Ritalin, but it's not very powerfull like the others stimulants on the Market...and I had a no no reaction on it...no more energy and a strange sentation like I Write before...I think I should avoid the stimulant drugs...
For the return on the Rivotril, I will answer never... Last summer we try this me and the PDoc I had at the time, I ending at the hospital for benzo abuse, I Was on a dose of 12mg/day of Xanax...it take me more than 3 months before I Was able to speak normally and gain some cognitives abilities that I lost on the Xanax...when I enter to the hospital, I Was not able to speak at all, I was not able to articulate with my mouth...it was like I had a big patatoe in my mouth...and I had a lot of loose of memory, I was totally lost...I take 3 months to withdraw of the Xanax...slowly tappering it...and at 2mg of Xanax I switch again to the Valium...right at 20mg...and since then I try to don't abuse of the Valium...30mg is the maximum limit I put to me...If I take already 3 pills of 5mg in the day and I go out at night, I keep in my pocket only 3 pills of 5mg...to be sure I don't take more than the 30mg...Sometimes at daytime, if I Feel really anxious and I begin to feel the strange sentation inside my head, I try to last the longer I Can before I take a 5mg pill...that's really hard...and also a lot frustrating because they don't help me at all...I know that I will have to completly stop them but for now it's not the time...my new PDoc told me that I really need to stop the Valium the more fast I Can...but I can't just stop taking it like this...he have to understand that it's not easy...Benzo drugs are the hardest thing I had to stop in my life...with the cigarettes of course... for the others drugs...legals or not, I always stop cold turkey without any problems at all...
Anyway, I know that you give me one of these small pills (Rivotril) and I will fall again in the whole process of addiction...they don't have any effect on me but my brains crave for them...so not a good solution...anyway blend a stimulant with a downer is not the good solution for me at all...
I need to find the good level of acceptable energy at daytime and acceptable level of anxiety also...So Nardil or Marplan is my next option...I will continue to drink coffee for the energy issue I think...and I will see...ont step at the time like my PDoc told me...I can't work on my energy level, my social phobia and general anxiety and my depression all in the same times with a cocktail of drugs who will just worsing me...
Anywa, I have to go...we talk more if you want tomorrow!! Have a nice night!
Bye!
Vincent ;-)
This is the end of the thread.
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