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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by kara lynne on December 29, 2003, at 1:25:44
On Xmas. He made it seem like he did all he could, but I just won't talk to him. He said he just wanted them to know that he was sorry to have them out of his life. Why did he do that?
He told my father how he's taking so much better care of himself now, how he keeps regular hours and practices intense yoga in sauna like heat. He told my mother he thought if he moved into the nice house he's in now that it would make me happy--as if he had offered me the world and I inexplicably turned it all down. And the coup de grace--he said, 'if it means anything, we went shopping for wedding rings just weeks before we split up'.
Why did he do this? I started twitching out of my skin, ready to call him and blast him--but I did nothing. I just can't understand what his intentions were. To make himself look good? To make sure I knew he was doing Inyegar yoga, or whatever the he*l it is? To torture my mother by saying we were shopping for wedding rings, but ooopsy! It just 'didn't work out'--but not for lack of the angel trying. He's told me he misses me and loves me but I won't talk to him. Well he said he loved me and he missed me all the years we were together--but those particular two words have to have a little follow through if you want to be in a relationship wiith someone. Otherwise it's just like pulling a string on a dolly. And then the dolly would also have to say all the mean and nasty things this little yogi spat out of his mouth in his more impure moments. And then, so he misses me and loves me---SOOOOO? What comes after that? Him talking about a stray cat, in his case. No, 'I love you madly and want to buy you that ring now.' Nothing. Which leads me to believe he dose not really want me back. He just wants to say he tried. He does everything except the action it would take to make anything work between us. This is his M.O. But he can get on the phone and make it sound good, oh yes he can. BUT WHY?
He didn't mention the rest of it though, like the 'ultimatum' he said I forced on him. That he said we were going to marry after 3 months of moving in together, and after a year and a half, when he decided to pull a geographic and get away from his drug source and wanted to move again (all for dear little kara, right) I said I wouldn't unless we were going to get married. One day we did look for rings and I was afraid he would get sick, standing over in the corner glowering in disgust. He turned that back on me too, saying he wasn't 'enthusiastic' enough for me so I got mad. Interested would have done, folks, interested. Enthustiastic--well that you might expect from someone who actually wants to be there. But in our case yes, interested would have sufficed.
No comments to them about being loaded for all the important moments, dinners we went to together that he made a mockery of, how he couldn't keep his word about anything. No word about being sorry for how much pain he put me through, not even a thought about it. Just that masturbatory little catch phrase, ' I love her, I miss her'....as if it absolves him of everything for the rest of his life and any life after this. He takes no responsibility, except to gloat about his new body, which of course I won't see or get the benefit of. Why did he do this?
This really isn't a rhetorical question, I could use some help if anyone's got it to give. I was doing significantly better, ask fallsfall. I even had a couple of days when I felt good and strong about the whole break up, and the obsessions had shifted to better places like, WHY DIDN'T I DO THIS 4 YEARS AGO instead of waiting so long.
And now of course: he's fixed. Why AFTER I leave, do I have to hear that he's tranforming, cultivating some of the qualities that would have helped our relationship? Suddenly he's focused on his health, and staying off drugs is important, and when we were together I was ridiculed for making these priorities? And why do I have to hear this now? So I'll be sure and know what I could almost have had? Well thank you very much for this new version of torture.
Well I am back to the first round of obsessions and I really don't know what to do. I don't know what to think. I think I'm angry, and getting angrier. Because also, for one fleeting moment, my hopes are up. Until I dig and dig and still can't find one thing he said that means anything--about anyone else but him, I guess.
Posted by Elle2021 on December 29, 2003, at 5:20:17
In reply to Ex called my parents., posted by kara lynne on December 29, 2003, at 1:25:44
Sounds like he called in a desperate, underhanded attempt to get you back. Maybe, he thinks that if he can get your parents on his side, they will influence you to get back together with him. I'm kind of a suspicious person by nature, so...
Elle
Posted by Medusa on December 29, 2003, at 8:46:03
In reply to Ex called my parents., posted by kara lynne on December 29, 2003, at 1:25:44
In the personality disorder sense of the word?
Ns are masters of engineering no-win situations. Darned if you do, darned if you don't, they'll make sure you lose.
Does this apply? :
Alexandra Nouri on "Missing the Narcissist":
http://www.angelfire.com/indie/aanouri/missing.html
Posted by fallsfall on December 29, 2003, at 8:59:45
In reply to Ex called my parents., posted by kara lynne on December 29, 2003, at 1:25:44
Kara,
You were doing so well, and you will be doing well again very soon. He makes you (justifiably) angry. The anger will let you break free of him.
Why did he call your parents and make himself sound like a saint? Because he can't live with himself unless HE thinks that he IS a saint. And right now you are challenging that view he has of himself. He figures that if he were a saint then you would have come running back to him - proving his saintliness. But you didn't run back - you have challenged him. He is no longer in control - and boy does he need to be in control. So he needs to make sure that at least the rest of the world sees him as saintly - maybe they will try to convince you, or maybe he can better dismiss your rebellion if he has 2456 people who agree that he is a saint.
This is ALL about his ego. Nothing else. He doesn't want you any more than he ever has. He only wants you to support his ego. Nothing will be different if you were to go back to him.
You ARE seeing this. You ARE seeing his manipulation. You ARE getting angry. As you should. Stay with your objective view - see him for what he is. He wants to control you and to have you for what he needs. He doesn't have any desire (or probably any idea, even) to fill any of your needs.
Move past him. He will only hurt you more.
You deserve better. Even NO relationship is better than what you had with him. Forge on! Find YOUR life. Sounds scary, doesn't it - but I know that you can do it. One step at a time. And the first step is to leave him behind.
((((((((((Kara))))))))))
P.S. There is a certain resonance between his need to be saintly and in control with you, and my need for those same things with my first therapist. Today in therapy, he will try to get me to accept that I played a role (i.e. that I have fault) in the demise of my first therapy. This is what your Ex will not accept. I'll let you know how that goes. Then you may have a better idea of what magnitude of change he would need to make - and you know he isn't going to make those changes.
Posted by tabitha on December 29, 2003, at 12:06:55
In reply to Ex called my parents., posted by kara lynne on December 29, 2003, at 1:25:44
Stay strong, Kara. Falls has his number-- he's just trying to shore up the ego damage by re-writing the history of your relationship to your parents. I hope they don't fall for his B.S. either. You're doing great. Hang onto the anger. You'll get through this.
Posted by Racer on December 29, 2003, at 18:50:53
In reply to Ex called my parents., posted by kara lynne on December 29, 2003, at 1:25:44
If it helps any, I used to think I was a carrier for happy marriages: about six months after I broke up with a boyfriend, he'd be blissfully married to a wonderful woman. It might have been funny, except that it made me feel as if there was something so wrong with me that I caused all these wonderful men who were so capable of happy relationships to fall into Relationship Hell. Happens once, you shrug it off. Second time, maybe it's a little more difficult. By the third time, you see a pattern forming...
Guess what? You already said this, so I'm just repeating it for you: it's really easy to SAY the right thing, but it takes a lot more to DO ANYTHING. Your ex has done something that doesn't take much effort, raises his personal stock, and hurts you. All with only a telephone call.
Now it's your turn to do something. You're going to look at what he did, look at how much insight you've developed to see exactly what it is he's done, you're going to take a deep breath and then you're going to remind yourself that you don't want to be like that. You want to be healthy and happy, which means that you're going to do those things that require energy and don't hurt yourself or others.
From the sound of your post, there are some drug issues in your/his past? I'd also like to point out to you that hurting other people can be kinda like a drug for some people. Tell yourself that his new body, which he claims is drug free, is actually churning with his new drug: gratuitous cruelty. Aren't you glad you're not strung out on that?
Good luck.
Posted by noa on December 29, 2003, at 19:05:13
In reply to Ex called my parents., posted by kara lynne on December 29, 2003, at 1:25:44
his calling your parents is a GASLIGHTING move!! It's Eddie Haskel at best.
It is controlling and intrusive and manipulative and........shall I go on?
Posted by octopusprime on December 29, 2003, at 20:41:19
In reply to Re: Ex called my parents. » kara lynne, posted by noa on December 29, 2003, at 19:05:13
kara lynne -
this also speaks volumes about your relationship with your parents.
why did your parents listen to all his crap? and then why did they turn around and unload it on you?
i'm sure some of this is parental expectations of you - to be married and happy and have babies and be normal and make them look like good parents blah blah blah
i know it's hard to talk to your folks, kara lynne, but maybe you can talk to them? starting with "i do not want to hear about my ex any more. it's over."
((kara lynne))
Posted by kara lynne on December 29, 2003, at 22:21:11
In reply to If it helps... » kara lynne, posted by Racer on December 29, 2003, at 18:50:53
It helps.
You described it perfectly, and named my worst fear in one fell post. I think he's committed to making sure I feel bad--like you say, addicted to cruelty. Even though he manages to justify himself all over the place as just one heckuva good guy.A couple of boyfriends back the same thing happened to me; we went through years of torture together, split up, and he was married a year later with two kids to follow. He actually called me one day years later and said he 'learned all over me'---it was sort of an apology and a thank you. He might just as well have said he s**t all over me, because that's what it felt like. What did he expect me to say: "Oh, so happy to oblige you! The merry martyr of love here, at your sacrificial service...next in line?"
If that happens this time Racer, there isn't enough justice on the planet to justify my living on it. I'm told to look for 'justice' in other areas, because I won't find it in this one. That's a tall order.
So we split up and lo and behold--he's seen the error of his ways and is a veritable prince charming, one that I have ignominously spurned. The doubts do surface, but what am I supposed to do with them? I did what I had to do at the time. He treated me cruelly. If he's changed so much wouldn't it be important for him to acknowledge that? It seems more important for him to clear his name, or as you put it so well, raise his personal stock--at my expense. Nothing's changed. More useless words, but just enough poison to make me sick.
I hope you're doing well Racer, after what you've been through. Let me know if it gets better.
Thank you.
Posted by kara lynne on December 29, 2003, at 22:32:40
In reply to Re: Ex called my parents. » kara lynne, posted by noa on December 29, 2003, at 19:05:13
Just this morning I told a friend that at least she wasn't trying to gaslight me like the rest of the people in my life. That was the term my therapist often used for his manipulations with me, and guess what? It really does begin to work and wear a person down. The first thing I said to my mother was that it was absolutely crazy making (his call), but gaslighting is a much more apt description. I don't know what it is with that dynamic, and interestingly I felt the same way about my family growing up. I guess the antidote would be trusting yourself...and cruel people might figure out that is a vulnerable area for me.
So yes, go on. The angrier I get the easier it makes it.
May your amygdala be soothed and comforted.
Posted by noa on December 29, 2003, at 22:49:43
In reply to Gaslighting/ Noa, posted by kara lynne on December 29, 2003, at 22:32:40
> May your amygdala be soothed and comforted.
Why, thank you--that is a great blessing!
Re: Gaslighting--see? you have cross-validation that it is a gaslighting move.It is the best term for it--he goes and cozies up to your parents, they take the bait and then they and everyone else around you that he gets to tries to make you feel like you are just absolutely INSANE to have rejected Mr. Wonderful, and that you must, MUST have been imagining the bad stuff.
A friend of mine was pushed back into an abusive marriage this way by her family. Not only did they do all the crazy making stuff and invalidate her experiences of being beat up by this guy--her Dad LOVED this guy--they also told her just to go have a baby with him and things would get better.
She went back and then had a breakdown and ended up in the psych. hospital for 18 months(this was back in the days when insurance actually paid for long hospitalizations and the treatment for borderline personality disorder was long term hospitalization), which further traumatized her.
Thank goodness she eventually got past that, and despite the hospital's and her parents' urging to reconcile with him (they forced her to have family therapy with her abuser!), she divorced him.
Anyway, you are not crazy. Don't let them get to you.
And may YOUR amygdala be soothed and comforted.
Posted by kara lynne on December 30, 2003, at 0:11:58
In reply to Kara, is this guy a narcissist?, posted by Medusa on December 29, 2003, at 8:46:03
Whoa, that was good Medusa. Even a few sentences describes the plague exactly:
"When we leave the Narcissist, it's because the abuse has gotten intolerable. Afterwards, when he calls us and pushes the buttons he knows extremely well, the temptation to give him another chance can be overwhelming. We're hurt; we're mad; we want to recoup some of our losses; we love him and want it to work; we just can't believe that anyone would be so warped as to hurt us that way, so we want to give them the benefit of the doubt. "
And everything following that--it's amazingly accurate. I'm reading a book called "Why Is it Always About You" that also hits a couple of salient points. The irony is that when we were in college the ex recommended a book to me called the Culture of Narcissism. Pretentious for a 20 year old, but just his style. I should have taken a hint right there.
Medusa, my therapist last said that her hope for me was that I never again get involved with a narcissist. I hope I've finished playing out this scenario, because it's been an extremely painful one. Only now am I beginning to see what insidious control his narcissism had of our relationship. If you can call it a relationship--I guess a narcissist is really only ever in relationship to himself.
Thanks so much for the reference.
Posted by kara lynne on December 30, 2003, at 0:40:06
In reply to Re: Ex called my parents., posted by octopusprime on December 29, 2003, at 20:41:19
My parents...sigh. It almost seems like they work at finding the least supportive way of interacting with me.
As my father was telling me about the ex (ok, I was grilling for details) Gone With The Wind was on television. My mother was annoyed because I was talking during an important part. My father grumbled--(have you noticed sometimes a woman might tell you 43 different possible interpretations about a phone conversation and a guy will say nothing happened and get irritated?) and said there was really nothing to tell me.
What struck me was how a fictional story was far more important to my mother than the real one of her daughter's broken heart (sniff sniff). I wanted to make sure that my father hadn't gone and made golfing plans with him or anything, as my family seems to make a sport out of being disloyal. I did ask my father why he didn't respond to the ex in a way that would have been supportive of me and he answered that he was taken offguard. That much I can understand. Then the gag order went into effect, where I was obviously going to anger them if I said anymore about it. So the rest of the evening was spent in polite torture.
So actually they didn't want to talk about it--I did. But the message has already been given that they are very disappointed that things didn't work out. Implicit throughout is that I failed this one too, by not getting married and giving them grandchildren.
I will try and say what I need to to get by with them. It's a fine line--you can't say too much or it will disturb their viewing entertainment.
Posted by Kalamatianos on December 30, 2003, at 0:49:15
In reply to Ex called my parents., posted by kara lynne on December 29, 2003, at 1:25:44
What kinda drugs is he now "off of" (only according to his testimony)? Do yogi's drink Alcohol? I hear his phone call to your mom and dad as an act of *control*, goes with the territory of chemical abusers.
(manipulation isn't the "bad-word". The "bad-word" is control, the dark side of manipulation. Management is the good side of manipulation).
Control is him acting badly! Life is too short to devote yours to a control freak! At least you're not married to it!
Posted by Kalamatianos on December 30, 2003, at 1:04:33
In reply to Re: Ex called my parents. » kara lynne, posted by Elle2021 on December 29, 2003, at 5:20:17
Posted by kara lynne on December 30, 2003, at 2:57:12
In reply to Please fill in a detail » kara lynne, posted by Kalamatianos on December 30, 2003, at 0:49:15
He went through some highly intense therapeutic process (after fits and starts with 12 step programs) and claims to be completely drug and alcolohol free. I do believe him, at least for now. He was always investigating cutting edge ways to deal with things, but looking for the magic bullet as well. I think it may work for him now, but we'll see. I don't think they make a magic pill for narcissism, which is what I said to him in my last email. That made him respond, dripping with condescension, that it must 'feel bad for me to have so much anger--and that he hopes I get what I want someday.'
So if he's not controlling he's delusional, at least.
Posted by Elle2021 on December 30, 2003, at 5:11:06
In reply to Good to see ya' back, Elle... (nm) » Elle2021, posted by Kalamatianos on December 30, 2003, at 1:04:33
Thanks! It's good to be back. I just need extended breaks every now and again. :) How are you doing?
Elle
Posted by kara lynne on December 30, 2003, at 13:42:39
In reply to Re: Ex called my parents. » kara lynne, posted by Elle2021 on December 29, 2003, at 5:20:17
Hi Elle,
I'm glad you're back too.I guess I wish that was my ex's intent in calling my parents, but I have a hard time believing it. His attempts at resolving things have been...well...limp, at best. Maybe it's an ego thingt but he will pretty much do everything except what it would actually take to make things work out between us (while saying words to make him look like he has tried--hence the gaslight effect).
My therapist says this is a blessing--hopefully someday I'll see it that way.
Thanks for posting.
Posted by kara lynne on December 30, 2003, at 14:20:33
In reply to Re: Ex called my parents. » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on December 29, 2003, at 8:59:45
You're right, he does not really accept that he had a role in the demise of the relationship. So can you give me an idea of the magnitude of change he would need after your therapy session? I'm just interested because it's so easy to start becoming seduced by the narcissist. In reality I know that he will never make those changes.
I do feel like this put me back. I was really feeling like I did the right thing--I meant what I said about that moment of clarity where I wondered why I hadn't left him YEARS ago.
But what is it that happens in these relationships--where women like Racer and me stay with these ar**s for so long, we finally leave and they change? I don't get it. I really don't. So I kept him from becoming better? Or the power struggle was more important to him than me? Why now does he call and let me know (indirectly) that he is taking better care of himself, telling my mother he's in a house he thought I'd like, and not staying out until 5am most nights? Is it a nya nya kind of thing? Because nowhere does he say, 'and now I'd like to share it with kara.' Or DOES he? In the most passive way, I guess. He says to my parents that I won't give him my address or phone number. Well he has my cell phone number and my email address. True I told him not to contact me anymore, but that was after his last email saying he wished he could give me 'one last hug'--he never tried! That's what always crushed me. And now he's all fixed, and so sorry that I am unevolved and angry, so I tell him not to post to me. But I'm really starting to feel crazy again. He did not email me and tell me how he wanted to be back with me. He told me he loved me and missed me and thought that maybe we could fiind someone to go into intensive psychoanalysis with.
I'm winding right back into the muck here. Hellllppp!!
thank you (((((fallsfalll)))))
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 30, 2003, at 17:25:23
In reply to falls, posted by kara lynne on December 30, 2003, at 14:20:33
> But what is it that happens in these relationships--where women like Racer and me stay with these ar**s for so long, we finally leave and they change?
No, that's not it at all. It's more of the narcissist's double-speak. They learned something from your unwillingness to totally take their bait, and they found a more compliant "victim".
Lar
Posted by kara lynne on December 30, 2003, at 23:38:47
In reply to Re: narcissist moving on » kara lynne, posted by Larry Hoover on December 30, 2003, at 17:25:23
thanks lar, for slapping me back into reality.
I had a pretty good talk about it today; I realize that his calling them in the first place was entirely inappropriate, that it had nothing to do with me and everything to do with trying to make himself look good. Also, if you had five minutes to talk would you make sure to slip in that your life was now perfect and you looked really good and had a nice house? I have to wonder about that urgency. My parents should have hung up on him.
My therapist said it was bu*lsh*t of the 'highest order'. She thinks maybe he went to yoga twice, and we both know he can't stick with anything. She reminded me that not engaging will bother him most, which is the best motivation I can think of. His worst fear is that he isn't important enough to warrant a response. If he can keep me at war he can continue to make himself right and me wrong, because that is his reason for existing. By the same law he has to invalidate anything that would make himself accountable.
I go into a fugue state, where I start to doubt if what he did and said were really all that bad. She asked if those things were not to be considered important, where does it end? Not that he ever hit me, because he didn't, but if that were to follow would it be one more thing that I was blowing out of proportion?
I remember the night I decided to move out--when it finally went too far. The night I issued him his 'ultimatum' which caused him to become enraged. He wanted to move--not for me, but to get away from his drug source. I said I wouldn't move again unless we were going to get married, which we were to supposed to have done a year earlier. Issues came up and one of mine was the hope that we could have a better sexual relationship. The conversation took a turn for the worse and soon he was telling me if I had dinner ready for him maybe he would be more interested in making love to me. I was being really kind in the face of what I wanted to say to this lying, impotent drug addict, absentee boyfriend who had never kept his word about anything. In fact, I wouldn't engage--and that's when it began. I got so mad I just walked away, and heard him calling me a c**t from the next room. It was 2am and I couldn't call anyone so I went to the computer in the hallway and came to post at psychobabble in desperation. This is what caused him to go over the edge. As I was typing away (instead of arguing with him ) he lit into me until he was bellowing at the top of his lungs for me to take my things and get out of the house. I guess it was because he thought I might be making him look bad to whoever he thought I was writing.
And I came here and asked if maybe everything he said about me was true, because I was afraid it might be. He counted on that.
I remember being motivated by Gracie's story, and she was a great support to me during that period. Through eyes like her's it made so much sense to leave. I have to remember that.
Posted by Kalamatianos on December 31, 2003, at 1:36:40
In reply to Re: Good to see ya' back, Elle... » Kalamatianos, posted by Elle2021 on December 30, 2003, at 5:11:06
cuz I don't wanna get rundover....
Posted by fallsfall on December 31, 2003, at 8:32:38
In reply to Re: narcissist moving on, posted by kara lynne on December 30, 2003, at 23:38:47
Kara,
Stay strong and stay angry. He only cares about him.
Prove that *you* care about you.
Posted by Elle2021 on December 31, 2003, at 16:29:31
In reply to I'm staying outta the fast lane » Elle2021, posted by Kalamatianos on December 31, 2003, at 1:36:40
This is the end of the thread.
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