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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by TherapyGirl on November 6, 2008, at 20:44:19
Hi, Daisy (and anyone else who might know about this). I don't know if you saw my thread about my T moving across the state after she retires. The other night when we were talking about it, she was trying to say that it really didn't change things because we'll be keeping in touch but not doing therapy anymore and so it doesn't matter if she's here or there. I told her it wasn't about doing therapy with her, it was about her BEING THERE. She said, "I know. That's an object permanence issue and we'll work on that in the next year."
Can you explain that to me (preferably in a way that my 3-year-old inner child will understand it)?
Thanks.
Posted by TherapyGirl on November 6, 2008, at 20:46:50
In reply to Object Permanence -- Daisy and whoever else, posted by TherapyGirl on November 6, 2008, at 20:44:19
that I understand the concept of object permanence as it applies to infants. I'm just not sure I'm following what it means in terms of my relationship to my T and where she is living.
Posted by obsidian on November 6, 2008, at 22:15:06
In reply to I should add, posted by TherapyGirl on November 6, 2008, at 20:46:50
well yeah, I guess you could consider it an object permanence issue, but it is really and concretely about the fact that she won't be "there" in the very real sense of the word.
I mean I get it. My T "disappears" sometimes on me, like if I can't hear him or see him he is "gone". She can still be with you emotionally of course, but it can be a very different thing when you won't actually "see" her.
how I compare it to an infant:
an infant sees a block, his eyes follow it
you pass that block behind another object, and out of sight, that block ceases to exist for that child. He doesn't even know how to begin to follow it. It's just gone.I think there is a very real difference between understanding the concept emotionally verses the concept intellectually, and its also a big difference when you use people instead of objects
for instance: mom leaves the room...how does the child react? think about those videos about attachment style...I've got to get a copy of those. The children can react very differently
Posted by FindingMyDesire on November 6, 2008, at 22:23:07
In reply to Object Permanence -- Daisy and whoever else, posted by TherapyGirl on November 6, 2008, at 20:44:19
Hi TherapyGirl,
I am surfacing a bit after my biggest crisis ever. I don't have the good definition of object permanence that you seek, but I will tell you this:I read a journal entry I had written when I was in therapy with my last T - some 14 years ago - to my current T. It made me cry out loud to read it. It was an account towards the end of my therapy with her where she had apparently told me how much she cared about me, that our relationship was a significant one, and that we would always be connected - even if we didn't talk or see each other. That she would be in my life.
My current T was watching me read it with such care and love in her eyes. When I finished she said, "And she is still part of your life today."
Well, I emailed my old T. Every once in a while I have sent a card and on occasion heard back from her. But it has been awhile.
She emailed back. Turns out she has moved from where she was before - where I KNEW she WAS even though I didn't see her. I felt a pang. What?! She's MOVED? But she told me she had just been thinking of me a few weeks prior (which is interesting because that's when things really fell apart for me). And that brief email exchange just meant the world to me. I realize not so much because of some kind of connection we could have today, but that she really is connected to me - she is in my heart. Permanently.
Note sure if that helps, but it sounds like you have a very strong connection to your T. She will always be there for you - inside, if not close by physically.
FMD
Posted by DAisym on November 6, 2008, at 23:04:26
In reply to Re: Object Permanence -- Daisy and whoever else, posted by FindingMyDesire on November 6, 2008, at 22:23:07
I'm gonna try but be prewarned that I've felt very little all week so it might not be as coherent as it should be:
Basic object permanence begins, as described above, in infancy. Prior to obtainment, infants will not seek out anything that disappears from sight - it doesn't appear to occur to them that things exist beyond their vision. Nor do they seem too upset by this. But this is true only for objects - infants do attach to primary caregivers early on and they do differentiate between adults - and research shows that very young infants will grieve the loss of their mother or other significant caregiver.
Around 10 months, separation anxiety appears on the scene, usually peaking around 15 - 18 months. The child now knows that mom exists "somewhere" else but has no idea where. Time is a concept that is not firm yet so short separations can be as painful as long ones. The baby becomes aware of how powerless they are - they can not make their mom come back so a "better" strategy is to not let her leave. And there is real terror in being left - what if mom doesn't come back? Because while baby now knows that mom exists out of sight, they do not know that they still exist for mom. They have no understanding of another's mind or memory.
What begins to happen as the brain matures is that the baby can hold their mom in their mind...and they can feel held in their mom's mind. This being held reminds them that they are important and that mom will not forget them and will come back. We begin to talk about the baby recognizing a "self" and an "other." As they separate - the other still makes them feel whole and safe. As the baby matures, they gain more self assurance and need an "other" less and less. Which is not to say that we don't all need an other but a strong self-core contains internalized elements of a significant other - usually parents/mom. Babies change from clinging continually to their moms to exploring out from their safe base - their mom. At first they rush back often and touch or check in - then they look across the room when they encounter something scary or novel. Eventually they will play for longer and longer periods of time without checking in. What we see happen is that a child who is frightened, gets hurt or ill, has to go through these stages all over again - their safety was shaken and now they need their "object" more.
In therapy, our Therapist often becomes our "other." It takes a great deal of work to trust that their caring (not really them physically) exists beyond the hour we spend with them --Who they are when they are with us is not just a "fake" person - this person is really in the world and available to us, should we need them. We move toward "therapist-permanence" as my therapist likes to say. More importantly, we eventually need to know that our therapist continues to hold us firmly in mind when we are not in their presences, so that we feel contained and we feel important to them. We can begin to internalize them when this happens so that we don't need to return to them (as often) for reassurance and safety. We carry them with us - we hear them in our head.
I think what your therapist implied was that while you *know* that she exists in the world and that you have email and telephones, your psyche might not *know* that she exists FOR YOU - even if she doesn't live close. That the safety and caring that you've created together will stretch between you, even at longer distances. I think it is much harder to internalize caring when you didn't learn how to as a child. I think separation is so much more painful and we always feel that distance is a super-bad thing and it signals the end. You can't "make" her remember you, like we can when we see them for therapy, each week or month. So the work is to believe that you've been internalized by her, as much as you have her, and that she will "need" and want to stay in touch as much as you do.
Lately I've been very freaked out about not knowing where my therapist is over the weekend and how far away he might be. He thinks it is because another part is trying to attach to him and she is very scared that he will leave and not come back, or that he will have some kind of experience that changes him and she won't know about it. I can only imagine all the out of control feelings you must be having about her moving. I'd want to go check it out, make sure she was safe and be able to visualize her there.
I don't know if this helped at all. I hope so.
Posted by myrtledog on November 7, 2008, at 8:53:39
In reply to Object Permanence -- Daisy and whoever else, posted by TherapyGirl on November 6, 2008, at 20:44:19
Therapy Girl, Im sorry Ive not been quicker to reply. Im not well at the moment so I perhaps wont express this as well as I would hope.
I think you know a little about my situation. My T, with whom I had been working just over 2 years, retired in August of this year and moved to the other side of the country in October [Im in UK]. I had been working intensively with her twice weekly, and had A LOT of contact in between I could text her and did so approx 8 times a day sometimes. So she was always very close. Like you, being abandoned by her in this way was my very worst fear and had dominated the therapy process even before the issue of her leaving was actually a live one. I had a fair amount of warning of her leaving she told me in March that we would be finishing in October. Unfortunately things were complicated by a family member being very ill and requiring her to finish in August to look after her. It goes without saying that that was extremely hard. [You might also recall my posts about my distress about her getting married your response was particularly helpful].
In terms of object permanence, we had lots of ways for me to try and achieve that. Firstly I had lots of things that belonged to her a bracelet, a shell, photocopies of her hand around the house, a scarf that smells of her. Those sorts of things. One of the most special things to me is that in her room she used to have a pair of small shells. One day she gave me one of these shells as another transitional object. The next session the remaining shell of the pair was gone. I was a bit aghast at that so I asked her where it was. She said she had put it in her purse, so that it was always with her. I was, and remain, incredibly moved by that. I now keep my shell of the two in my purse. Before she left I asked if she would take her shell out, but she said it would always be there.
For her going, we did a video recording thing of our voices, and that is soothing now. I dont play it over and over and over because its impact is too great. I gave her some soap and hand lotion which were special to me and which I have also. She gave me a bear called Posh Paws who is to represent her. And she also did an amazing thing for one of my teddy bears, the effect of which will stay with me forever and was so big I can hardly take in.
I acknowledge and understand everything you have said about distance, and I too struggle with that. From august until October I knew where she was and I could place her. Even though I wasnt going to do anything about it, such as drive round or anything, it WAS a comfort. Now she has moved, I have no idea where she is, only roughly which area of the country. I can rationalise that it makes no difference, because I cant see her anyway, but it still seems to matter, especially to the 3 year old.
However, a few weeks before the end I asked her to choose a place in the universe where I could find her. She chose the middle star of Orions belt. She insists that that is OUR star. I can look up at the sky and find that star and I know that she can see it too and that she will look out for it and that is also very powerful.
I have no contact with her, in terms of telephone/email/text and that is by far and away the most difficult thing I have ever had to deal with. Again, I can rationalize why it has to be that way but to the 3 year old it is feels frankly cruel and baffling.
Right in the last session I asked her if she would search for me on the internet. I write a diary on another message board and she reads this I can see the page visited counter tick over. That is a big, big help. [I have to keep a check on how many times I say in the diary please just write YES in the visitor message section so that I know you are reading. But it cant be anyone else. But why cant she just write YES?????]
I think you have to stop searching for her out there. Generally when I start off down this path, as I very regularly do, I hit the buffers. I do better when I look into my heart, for she is there in my heart and in my bones and in my soul. And that is why distance is no object. I think of her and of the immensely powerful connection that we have and then she is there. Im crying now as I write this but it is the good crying because of the amazing thing I had.
Its very difficult to know how to pitch this because I want to tell you that it will be fine, and things arent fine Im having a nightmare. What I can say is that this loss was my very worst fear. But I have survived it. You have to grieve it and there is no real way around it. But you will never lose what you had it will be there isnt you and you will have been changed by it.
I am not seeing another T. I interviewed what felt like hundreds, all vastly inferior. My plan was to see a T who my T had seen. I had a few reservations, but I felt I could work with her, if only to help manage my grief. After 6 sessions however, that T said she wasnt the right T for me. That hurt like a bastard. There had at least been comfort in knowing she knew my T. After that searching for new Ts just seemed to make the pain of my loss worse. I had a very special connection with my T and she was by far and away the best T for me. I do need some help right now, that is very evident. I dont really know what to do because all other Ts just seem rubbish and to make it worse.
There is definitely lots more I can say but this post is already very long. For what its worth, it is a comfort to me that you can understand what I am going through.
Im thinking of you TG.
Posted by rskontos on November 7, 2008, at 9:18:02
In reply to I should add, posted by TherapyGirl on November 6, 2008, at 20:46:50
TherapyGirl,
I know that I can't add a great deal of experience to this discussion, and Daisym explained the concept of object permanence very well and how it interfaces in your therapy relationship. While MD add really personal experiences as well showed how she managed her early end to therapy.
All I have to add for you to think about and it may be rubbish, but here goes is this:
I think it is not only the young TherapyGirl hurting and wondering how this person of such trust, caring and safety can be departing but I feel that you, adult TherapyGirl, is also there wondering how can this be. So you have a two-fold situation where young TG has the hurts of a three-year old, object permanence, and adult TG has the hurts of a adult that learned to trust in a relationship that has offered her the peace, safety, trust and caring that she needed to help her in addition to being there to try to heal the hurting three-year old TG. Does this make sense?
I just got a sense that the hurt and distress is so much more. For me, the goal of therapy is having, finally, a relationship with someone I can trust to speak of things I have never spoken about. You get so far into that relationship and feel things for the first time you have never felt only to have it end really before you have truly and finally dealt with all that is inside of you both of adult issues and those that are still unresolved children inside, is such a blow. I can see why you are struggling so much.
I feel for you and hope my words help you, if not please discard them. I only want to offer my support during this very difficult time. I truly understand difficult, even if my own are of a different nature. Hard times are hard times.
Take care and know I, as well as so many others here, wish you peace.
rsk
Posted by raisinb on November 7, 2008, at 10:09:51
In reply to Object Permanence -- Daisy and whoever else, posted by TherapyGirl on November 6, 2008, at 20:44:19
Hi TG--
I'm so sorry your therapist is moving so far away. With my own therapist going on maternity leave in a few months, this issue is a big one for me, too!She had her first child about 3 and a half years ago, only five or six months into the therapy. That--and any other, shorter separation--for most of our work has triggered a *lot* of anger on my part. Because I couldn't believe she cared when we were apart, I was enraged about the inconsistency of her caring.
I can tell we've made progress in this area because I feel very sad, as if a part of me is being ripped out, when I think about her leave, but I don't feel anger. I think this is because I'm growing to trust that she still cares (and because she tells me that she will miss me).
I don't know if our relationship will still exist for me in the way that it does now--for a six-week leave. That's a tall order, progress or no progress. And yours is much taller, but it sounds like your relationship with your therapist has more than enough strength to get you to that point.
Posted by Dinah on November 7, 2008, at 12:44:51
In reply to Object Permanence -- Daisy and whoever else, posted by TherapyGirl on November 6, 2008, at 20:44:19
Of course, at least in my opinion, it isn't *entirely* about object permanence. She's leaving you to go retire, and the fact that she's leaving the area is an additional pounding in of the fact that she's left you and moved on with her life in a tangible fashion.
It's wonderful if she keeps you in her heart, and you keep her in yours. Very wonderful. But gone is gone, and that part needs to be dealt with at all.
At least that's how I'd see it if I were you. I think I'd be having some difficulty accepting that her no longer being a therapist meant she was no longer in my life. It would always seem to me that there was still some hope of seeing her now and again. The fact that she was moving would mean a lot of that being driven home. Like a stake through the heart after you've already been shot.
It *does* matter on some level that not only is she no longer your therapist but she's no longer even in town.
Hmmmm... Perhaps some of my own feelings are peeking through here.
Posted by TherapyGirl on November 7, 2008, at 19:27:40
In reply to Object Permanence -- Daisy and whoever else, posted by TherapyGirl on November 6, 2008, at 20:44:19
I will respond individually tomorrow, but I just wanted to say thank you all from the bottom of my heart. You've explained this, from both personal and theoretical perspectives, in ways that make total sense to me. I'm remembering what it was like for me when I didn't have Babbleland and no one understood how I felt about my T. This would be so much worse without you all with me, holding my hand.
I can't write more now because the tears are coming back. I did have a 2nd session with her today. We haven't tackled the object permanence thing yet (that will be next week), but we did talk about my anger and hurt. More on that later. I really have to go now.
Thank you all, though.
Posted by TherapyGirl on November 9, 2008, at 21:06:29
In reply to Re: I should add » TherapyGirl, posted by obsidian on November 6, 2008, at 22:15:06
Exactly. Some of it probably is an object permanence issue, but there is also the very real fact that she won't be here.
Thank you so much for understanding and getting it. You can't imagine how that helps.
Posted by TherapyGirl on November 9, 2008, at 21:08:48
In reply to Re: Object Permanence -- Daisy and whoever else, posted by FindingMyDesire on November 6, 2008, at 22:23:07
Thank you so much for this FMD. You give me hope that my connection to T will survive our separation. Did you do anything special as you were preparing for the end of your therapy and right afterwards to sustain the connection and make the transition to this new reality or did it just happen pretty naturally?
You give me hope, which has been in short supply for me lately. Thanks again.
Posted by TherapyGirl on November 9, 2008, at 21:13:21
In reply to Re: Object Permanence -- Daisy and whoever else, posted by DAisym on November 6, 2008, at 23:04:26
Oh my God, Daisy, you explained this to me so beautifully. And now I feel like I can use the time I have left with my T to focus on the problem areas here (and with my adult self) instead of using that time to have her explain this to me and then losing more time while I tried to absorb it. Sometimes she explains things to me in therapy and I get it in the moment and then it's gone. I don't know exactly what happens, except that is almost always the case when things are difficult.
And I understand completely about being freaked when you don't know where T is or what he's doing. It's been that way with me on and off during the years. I hope things will settle down for you soon. You have helped me so much, both with this post and with your other posts about your journey. I wish I could offer you the same wisdom.
Thanks again for the time and effort that went into this response. I'm almost looking forward to discussing this with my T next week.
Posted by TherapyGirl on November 9, 2008, at 21:22:01
In reply to Re: Object Permanence -- Daisy and whoever else, posted by myrtledog on November 7, 2008, at 8:53:39
I do understand because I'm either living it now or trying to prepare to live it. I'm so sorry you can't have any contact with your T. That has to be hard. It does sound like you two did a lot of work around maintaining the connection and I like all of your ideas very much.
In my last session before she was out for what turned out to be 9 weeks, I took in a little figurine my T gave me years ago for my birthday. Then I asked if I could trade it for something in her office, which she allowed me to do. She laughed and said, "A transitional object. What a wonderful idea! Wish I'd thought of it." It did help me and I suspect the other things you and your T did will help as well.
But the bottom line is they won't be there in the same way, isn't it? I also understand why you are not in therapy -- that's my plan as well because therapy, for me, has been all about the connection to this T. But I don't have a good plan for what to do when my brain chemistry kicks in or during a crisis. I'm sorry you're having a hard time right now. Wish I could help some way.
I will be thinking about you. You've been incredibly helpful to me.
((((((((MyrtleDog)))))))))
Posted by TherapyGirl on November 9, 2008, at 21:30:30
In reply to Re: I should add » TherapyGirl, posted by rskontos on November 7, 2008, at 9:18:02
That makes perfect sense and you are on target about my adult self. Of course, the danger is that I will be so distracted by the needs of my 3 year old that I will all but disregard the adult needs.
I did have a 2nd session with my T on Friday and was able to deal with some of the adult things that day. I asked her when she was planning to tell me she was moving (I figured it out and asked; she didn't volunteer it) and she said she hadn't figured that out. I reminded her that we have had this conversation several times over the years and that she can't wait to tell me things that are this huge, hoping for a more opportune moment. That basically never works out for me. She said it was always a tough judgment call for her about whether to pile on if I'm stressed out or having a crisis. But there's almost never a time when that's not the case. I told her it wasn't a judgment call anymore -- that from now on, she has to tell me when she knows, no matter what. She agreed to that. I also told her that in every conversation we have about her leaving me, she must acknowledge how completely devastating this is for me. I told her that I didn't want to hear that I'll be fine because neither one of us knows if I will be. And to act like this is not devastating somehow disrespects my feelings for her. She agreed to all of that and then thanked me for handling my anger so well. (Because in the past I would have called her up and said, "F*ck you, I'm not coming back.")
I don't know what I'll do without her -- my 3 year old or my adult. I've not had this kind of relationship with anyone else ever. It's hard to imagine it going away the way it's going to. And I know she'll keep in touch, but you know it won't be the same.
I really appreciate the support and the clarity you brought to me with your post, RSK.
Thanks.
Posted by TherapyGirl on November 9, 2008, at 21:33:06
In reply to Re: Object Permanence -- Daisy and whoever else » TherapyGirl, posted by raisinb on November 7, 2008, at 10:09:51
I hope that's true, Raisin. Part of my connection to her, though, depends on being able to see her. Maybe it works out if I see her more often during some kind of transition period, I don't know. I just hate thinking about it. And I'm angry too, but mostly just devastated. I guess that's progress for both of us.
I'm sorry your T will be on leave again. I'm happy to support you however I can when that happens. I just survived (barely) a 9-week unplanned leave from my T. That also complicates our work in the next year because she is still dealing with some fallout from the crisis that caused her to be out.
It's so hard, isn't it?
Posted by TherapyGirl on November 9, 2008, at 21:37:00
In reply to Re: Object Permanence -- Daisy and whoever else, posted by Dinah on November 7, 2008, at 12:44:51
I think we have similar feelings about this, Dinah. It does, indeed, feel like a stake through my heart after I've been shot. What I told her Friday was that I could *barely* stomach the thought of her retiring and I have no idea at all if I can survive her moving so far away from me. God, it all sucks so much. And yet the things I've gained from this weird relationship with her are still gains, right? I don't lose them because I lose her. Somehow that all seems beside the point right now. It feels, once again, like I'm not good enough to be chosen. She's moving to be near her granddaughter and I'm left again holding an empty sack. It's very hard not to go down the whole "no one ever chooses me" road with this thing. But I'm fighting it.
Yep. Stake through the heart.
Posted by TherapyGirl on November 9, 2008, at 21:39:30
In reply to Re: Object Permanence -- Daisy and whoever else, posted by TherapyGirl on November 9, 2008, at 21:08:48
Posted by Dinah on November 9, 2008, at 22:15:22
In reply to Re: Object Permanence -- Daisy and whoever else » Dinah, posted by TherapyGirl on November 9, 2008, at 21:37:00
> And yet the things I've gained from this weird relationship with her are still gains, right? I don't lose them because I lose her.
That's exactly what my therapist told me when we talked about his moving a few months ago. I told him that I could so lose every gain I ever gained from him, and I *would*. I'd make sure of *that*.
Not that I'm advocating that position of course. It really is self defeating of me.
I guess it's a bit different because it's a retirement. But...
Dang. If you ever need your anger at abandonment validated, come to me.
I think it's great that you're being so open with her about your anger. And in a more mature manner than I did, as well.
Posted by 10derHeart on November 10, 2008, at 1:07:06
In reply to Re: Object Permanence -- Daisy and whoever else » TherapyGirl, posted by Dinah on November 9, 2008, at 22:15:22
Dinah, really, are you *sure* we're not twins separated at birth or something?
From the foot-stomping to the arm-crossing to the tone, I have done and said so many of same things to T. you describe, in almost exactly the same manner.
It's spooky.
I so "get it." And to heck with *maturity* around therapists, they can get that from someone else. I prefer to act any age or show any degree of brattiness that suits the moment!
Yup - I do *so* and that's *that!*
Posted by Dinah on November 10, 2008, at 7:59:47
In reply to Re: Object Permanence -- Daisy and whoever else » Dinah, posted by 10derHeart on November 10, 2008, at 1:07:06
:-)
My therapist takes it all in stride for the most part. I'm sure yours does as well.
Posted by Dinah on November 10, 2008, at 8:01:46
In reply to Re: Object Permanence -- Daisy and whoever else » Dinah, posted by 10derHeart on November 10, 2008, at 1:07:06
In fact, he once told me that my feelings weren't that unusual, that I just was open enough to express them and that wasn't inappropriate in therapy.
Posted by TherapyGirl on November 10, 2008, at 17:03:12
In reply to Re: Object Permanence -- Daisy and whoever else » TherapyGirl, posted by Dinah on November 9, 2008, at 22:15:22
You, 10der and me could have our own club for that. Note that she thanked me for appropriately expressing my anger because I usually don't. I'm probably being a little more cautious with her right now than I normally would because of what she's going through. But it is very hard at times.
And I don't really believe I'll still have the gains, but it seems like something I should keep telling myself.
This is the end of the thread.
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