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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by gazo on March 19, 2007, at 21:25:01
In reply to Re: a newbie in love » gazo, posted by Dinah on March 19, 2007, at 21:16:44
Thank you for caring. :)
i think your therapist maybe has a high percentage of clients who don't admit their attachment? Then again, i have never become attached to my pdoc quite like this. Of course, he has never tried to leave me either.
i also see so many people damaged by therapy and spending so much time trying to get over the help they sought. it's like needing a vacation from your vacation!
i hate this.. it's like an addiction that you no control over.
Posted by Honore on March 20, 2007, at 5:17:35
In reply to a newbie in love, posted by gazo on March 19, 2007, at 16:26:10
You could discuss the feelings you have for your current T with a new T without going into the exact type of feelings.
A lot of what you're experiencing could be romantic love, or it could be a desire and need for a dependable and caring other or object, or a substitute parents or various other feelings. You don't have to specify at first, until you trust your new T enough.
Even talking in a general way about your sense of loss, and your dependence, and then desire to get away from your damaging BF relationship, might lead to working through the forced separation. Plus it could possibly help you not to go back to a bad relationship in the aftermath of the disruption.
It may be that you don't quite understand the nature of the connection to your T. Maybe it's romantic, but maybe, over time, you'd find that the romantic element would be superceded by a sense of companionship or confidence.
Plus if the erotic element in a relationship with a T is too intense, it maynot be terribly helpful in the long run. Each therapy relationship is different, but the extremely erotic ones may often end without really being transformative. A certain amount of erotic feeling (transference or "real--whichever you prefer) might be fine, but when it moves to obsession and degrees of fixation such as that, it may be better to have some way of withdrawing and finding a less fraught of potentially destructive type of connection.
I hope that you'll be able to ride out the loss and find someone else who can provide comfort and understanding without an uncomfortable intensity.
Honore
Posted by gazo on March 20, 2007, at 8:20:41
In reply to Re: a newbie in love, posted by Honore on March 20, 2007, at 5:17:35
I think you have hit the nail on the head in many ways. I deeply appreciate the thougthfulness of your reply.
It is very hard to describe without using the language used to describe romantic love. In ways it crosses lines and becomes indistinguishable. It is very difficult for me to admit that I have these feelings, even here where no one knows me.
I blush when I see it phrased as erotic.. but I suppose it is. I never fantasize about him in an overt sexual way... but I do long for an intimacy of some indescribable way with him.
When push comes to shove I believe that I will never have a deep, healthy relationship with anyone unless I can sort out what this all means in me. In that way it has the potential to be useful.
But what happens if I *can't* work through it? What happens if I am unable to unravel it far enough? Not only wll I be unable to connect with a real person, I will be trapped in this longing indefinitely.
The impending goodbye has brought this all to a head. I had these feelings but had been managing until recently. I knew from the start that I was idealizing him, so I did my best to ignore it. But it is raw and unresolved.
I like your compromise solution. If I focus mostly on the separation aspect I think there is a lot of help he can give me. Thank you. I hadn't considered it that way.
In the next 6 days, until I see my new T, and then the next day say goodbye to my former T, what do I do? How do I stay sane? How do I keep myself from walking by his office? or calling?
Is there nothing I can do to ease the intensity?
Posted by canadagirl on March 20, 2007, at 8:26:08
In reply to a newbie in love, posted by gazo on March 19, 2007, at 16:26:10
Hi there, I think the important thing here is, since you can't see T #1 anymore, to allow yourself as much time as you need to process and to think about that relationship. Give yourself permission to think about it and to mourn for it. Let yourself obsess for a bit. This was an important relationship to you - transference or not. And it takes time, a lot of time, to get through those feelings. I think the emotional breakdown comes when we try to stuff the feelings and not allow ourselves to feel them. When we tell ourselves to "get over it".
Even though you don't think you are ready, you might try to put some of it, anyway, out there with #2. I wasn't ready to discuss with #2 T my feelings for #1 T but I since time was running out (due to insurance) if I didn't talk about it then there would go my chance. So I did, ready or not, and found an understanding response from #2 which normalized everything I felt. Eventually that real intense sadness and longing did go away, it's been over a year now and it's truly like night and day from that time. I hope that you can get through this too.
Posted by gazo on March 20, 2007, at 8:59:01
In reply to Re: a newbie in love » gazo, posted by canadagirl on March 20, 2007, at 8:26:08
Thank you! I am in Canada as well. I can't fathom why T's are not covered. Well, I suppose they are in you go through "the system." In my experience the mental health clinics with free services offer the worst T's and you end up waiting so long to get inadequate service. It's sad that mental health is on the bottom of the ladder.
I am with you and Honore. I think those are excellent ideas.
It seems cruel that I need a T to get over my T. Will I fall for this one too? I am spending more time trying to deal with this than the original issue which drove me into therapy in the first place. This is all consuming and I am neglecting important responsibilities. If I don't stop this obssessing I will do permanent damage to my life.
All I can think about is him.
Posted by gazo on March 20, 2007, at 9:28:44
In reply to a newbie in love, posted by gazo on March 19, 2007, at 16:26:10
I have to ask... what could be so bad if i did manage to get something to happen with him? I read about people succeeding at this and I envy them. Carl Jung had a relationship with one of his patients.. and some other prominent female analyst married one of her former patients. It can't always be wrong can it?
I mean, is it always transference? Aren't a lot of relationships tranference anyway?
I think it would be fulfilling one of the deepest desires I have ever had... I think many people get miserable afterwards because once they have what they want, they need to want something else. What would happen if you worked those issues out but still had a relationship with the T?
Oh god.
I read somewhere that love at first glance was just transference. I don't know if I believe that. It dehumanizes something about love feelings which are spiritual to me. I don't think you can put all of our emotions in a test tube. I have to believe that we sometimes recognize a kindredness in another... even before we get to know the whole person.
I don't believe in the traditional sense of reincarnation.. but I do believe in the idea that part of us continues on. I believe we are all made up of components of other people before us. So, for me, the recognition of that kindredness is a spiritual belief. Part of me recognizes part of him possibly. It's hard to determine. The concept of transference is more likely in this case, but I cannot draw myself away from this.
Posted by canadagirl on March 20, 2007, at 9:50:50
In reply to Re: a newbie in love))canadagirl, posted by gazo on March 20, 2007, at 8:59:01
>>It seems cruel that I need a T to get over my T. <<
I had to laugh here because this is exactly what I thought about myself.
>>Will I fall for this one too? <<
I thought about that with #2 as well, but nope, no chemistry. LOL
>>I am spending more time trying to deal with this than the original issue which drove me into therapy in the first place. This is all consuming and I am neglecting important responsibilities. <<
Yes, I hear ya! But I also believe it won't last forever. I believe it is worse because it is a "forced separation" as he moved right? (As mine was, because the insurance ran out and I couldn't go back to that particular provider as it was connected to a former workplace). I think it is way worse than when you can terminate in your own time. That's part of it, I think. Those intense feelings are part of the separation and the fact that there was no real closure. I think that is a huge part of the loss. But in my experience, it does get better, it just takes time. You likely won't always feel so distracted and in such pain, it just feels right now like it will never end.
Posted by one woman cine on March 20, 2007, at 10:31:08
In reply to Re: a newbie in love, posted by gazo on March 20, 2007, at 9:28:44
>>>>>I read about people succeeding at this and I envy them. Carl Jung had a relationship with one of his patients.. and some other prominent female analyst married one of her former patients. It can't always be wrong can it?
You can also look through the babble archives and see the people who "have succeeded" - alot of damage can be wrought that one cannot possibly fathom at the time.
Posted by gazo on March 20, 2007, at 16:56:28
In reply to Re: a newbie in love))canadagirl » gazo, posted by canadagirl on March 20, 2007, at 9:50:50
> >>Will I fall for this one too? <<
>
> I thought about that with #2 as well, but nope, no chemistry. LOLI worry about that actually. I deliberately avoided women and old men. I do not want a daddy figure. I want there to be that chemistry because I don't think I will be open if it isn't there. I don't want to end up longing for the guy like now, but I do want to feel vulnerable... because then he can walk around my defences. (please don't anyone suggest I just not be defensive...I am going to therapy for a reason ;o) )
> I believe it is worse because it is a "forced separation" as he moved right?... Those intense feelings are part of the separation and the fact that there was no real closure. I think that is a huge part of the loss.I think so too. I was honestly able to work within a framework in spite of, or because of those feelings. If he had explained to be about transference, or once i found it myself, I would have eventually talked to him about them then. Instead I am having an artery cut out.
>You likely won't always feel so distracted and in such pain, it just feels right now like it will never end.
The trouble is I have responsibilities *now.* If I don't get my head on straight I am going to be fired.. and not next week... Now.
Posted by gazo on March 20, 2007, at 17:02:09
In reply to Re: a newbie in love, posted by one woman cine on March 20, 2007, at 10:31:08
> >>>>>I read about people succeeding at this and I envy them. Carl Jung had a relationship with one of his patients.. and some other prominent female analyst married one of her former patients. It can't always be wrong can it?
>
> You can also look through the babble archives and see the people who "have succeeded" - alot of damage can be wrought that one cannot possibly fathom at the time.
>I haven't searched, but this site is where I first saw posts from anyone who had an affair with her T. I was captivated. Even though she begged everyone to not do as she had done, she talked an awful lot about things she got from it.. like how well he treated her when they did get intimate, something she had not had before.
You are possibly right.. but I can't help but think it can't *always* be wrong or harmful, can it?
Posted by gazo on March 20, 2007, at 18:10:45
In reply to Re: a newbie in love, posted by one woman cine on March 20, 2007, at 10:31:08
There is another response to above that I forgot to put your name on.
I found this while searching this site:
"...My T goes out of his way to meet my emotional needs when I am doing poorly. He worries about me and takes me seriously, he doesnt question what i am capable of doing and he therefore is there whenever I need him, even if it just means a late night phone call to calm me down, or a quick hug. Sex aside, he is the best goddamn therapist on the face of my planet and believe me, over the years Ive been to many and no one has ever helped me and succeeded in my growth like he has."
Posted by canadagirl on March 21, 2007, at 5:14:52
In reply to Re: a newbie in love))canadagirl, posted by gazo on March 20, 2007, at 16:56:28
Re getting fired, I really do understand as I was completely distracted too. I mean completely. What I tried to do, was only think about the situtation during certain times of the day. If I was at work, I would have to compartmentalize it and deal with it later. Didn't always work but it did sometimes, enough that I could get through it.
Also, you say you haven't left #1 yet, a suggestion - you might want to do everything you can to get those feelings out as much as possible without starting a new case or whatever since he is leaving. You might want to think of a strategy of what to say so that you can be honest, and reveal, yet contain, if you know what I mean. But if you still have some time left, you can at least use up some of those emotions in the session, with him, although it will be very hard. I think you will get a helpful response, from what you have written about him. I understand how hard it is, believe me. It's an awful time to go through.
Posted by one woman cine on March 21, 2007, at 9:43:53
In reply to Re: a newbie in love}}onewomancine, posted by gazo on March 20, 2007, at 18:10:45
check out the posts from tinydancer - I think she did have an affair - it was OK intially, but eventually it was devastating - there are more examples of it devastating the patient and wreaking havoc, rather than being a postive experience.
I found this to be a decent site - browse around -
http://psychjourney.com/Professional%20Boundaries%20Series.htm
Posted by gazo on March 21, 2007, at 11:09:33
In reply to Re: a newbie in love))canadagirl » gazo, posted by canadagirl on March 21, 2007, at 5:14:52
omg... i almost started to cry reading what you said. i'm not sure why but it touched a nerve. i think it's what you said about using the last appt and that i'd get a good response... I am pretty sure i would. He just has a lot of empathy and he is very sweet. i think that is it... thinking about how nice he would be if i did talk to him about it.
I have to ask him why he didn't tell me about transference once he knew i was attached to him. He asked me about seeing another T at one point, before he was sure of leaving, and I said no because I liked him... I remember it exactly, his eyebrows went up slightly and he said"...now by that do you mean you LIKE me?" I was mortified so I said no, that I was comfortable with him. That part was half true. I am not good at connecting with people. But had he explained to me why he asked it that way, that sometimes people developed overattachments and it was normal... well, that would have been a different ball game.
i mean, why not tell me? It's bothering me and I am a little bit hurt and angry about it... but i cannot show him anger because that is part of my issue in the first place!
i *have* to get that contract done and filed.
> Re getting fired, I really do understand as I was completely distracted too. I mean completely. What I tried to do, was only think about the situtation during certain times of the day. If I was at work, I would have to compartmentalize it and deal with it later. Didn't always work but it did sometimes, enough that I could get through it.
> Also, you say you haven't left #1 yet, a suggestion - you might want to do everything you can to get those feelings out as much as possible without starting a new case or whatever since he is leaving. You might want to think of a strategy of what to say so that you can be honest, and reveal, yet contain, if you know what I mean. But if you still have some time left, you can at least use up some of those emotions in the session, with him, although it will be very hard. I think you will get a helpful response, from what you have written about him. I understand how hard it is, believe me. It's an awful time to go through.
Posted by gazo on March 21, 2007, at 11:16:34
In reply to Re: a newbie in love}}onewomancine » gazo, posted by one woman cine on March 21, 2007, at 9:43:53
i will go look for tinydancer. i had a look around and i found the one i quoted and i found another, in the UK i think?, and she was marrying hers. i am not saying it's a *good* idea, i can see some of the potential for harm because i know i would belong body and soul to them, and wouldn't be good. But, at the same time it presents a gray area to me, afterall most relationships are not really equal, there is frequently power imbalances. I think we often "fall in love" with people through transference processes... it's what happens in the long run that decides whether it'sgood or not. So, to me, the big issue becomes the strength of the transference and how well it went. If the T were actually a good person and the relationship was not just false, well I tend to think it could be the deepest relationship ever.
PS... how are you guys getting thos elittle ">>" things in the subject? when I try all I get are)).
Posted by gazo on March 21, 2007, at 11:37:42
In reply to Re: a newbie in love}}onewomancine » gazo, posted by one woman cine on March 21, 2007, at 9:43:53
wow. I appreciate your intent in giving the link, but that woman is out of her tree. ;o)
She obviously has some pretty unrealistic standards about some stuff that just could not apply in many cases. "I saw my T at the gymn." Whoopee. "I see my T at social functions"(or something like that).. she obviously has her pratice in a large city and sees clients outside of her own sphere. That isn't possible in most places I have lived unless the T were a cloistered monk or something. Once I ended up in a book group with a T i had seen. I run into my pdoc off and on at stores or various places... what's the guy supposed to do? Not buy groceries?
I saw a lot there that were obvious boundary crossing... but it was so mixed with inocuous "life stuff" that it was weird. I mean, how can you list "he/she gave me sex toys" with "i saw him/her at the gymn?"
She apparently has the idea that ANY crossing of paths is somehow bad treatment or damaging. I think it would be different if the T was joining social activities just to be near the patient.
I mentioned to my T that I was worried if I bumped into him somewhere that he would think I was doing something inappropriate. He asked me what I would like, if he pretended not to know me or if i'd prefer he say hello. That worked for me. I do see him off and on as his office is in someplace where i go occasionally for other things.
Thanks for taking the time to help though.
http://psychjourney.com/Professional%20Boundaries%20Series.htm
Posted by one woman cine on March 21, 2007, at 12:22:21
In reply to Re: a newbie in love}}onewomancine#2, posted by gazo on March 21, 2007, at 11:37:42
Yes, I think life intrudes upon therapy and vice versa - & some of the things listed do occur - no problem. I think the problem she's outlining is when so many of those things listed do coincide. A few one might check off - but the more things listed that you "check off" could give a red flag for therapy trouble.
>>>>wow. I appreciate your intent in giving the link, but that woman is out of her tree. ;o)
I don't know the author - but as Racer mentioned in another thread - please read the civility guidelines. It's a tricky thing in discussing what other people think and how we might feel about that. It may be the truth, but it's not civil.
Posted by 10derHeart on March 21, 2007, at 16:06:25
In reply to Re: a newbie in love}}onewomancine, posted by gazo on March 21, 2007, at 11:16:34
>>PS... how are you guys getting those little ">>" things in the subject? when I try all I get are)).
Just click the box "add name of previous poster" - you'll see it right under the Subject box. That directs your reply to whomever you're answering, and automatically puts in the arrows :-)
Posted by gazo on March 21, 2007, at 16:35:02
In reply to Re: a newbie in love}}onewomancine#2, posted by one woman cine on March 21, 2007, at 12:22:21
oh dear, I'm sorry. I hope that didn't offend you. I certainly wasn't meant to. My apologies.
Posted by gazo on March 21, 2007, at 16:35:51
In reply to Re: a newbie in love}}onewomancine » gazo, posted by 10derHeart on March 21, 2007, at 16:06:25
awesome! Thanx!! woohoo :)
Posted by one woman cine on March 22, 2007, at 8:14:18
In reply to Re: a newbie in love}}onewomancine#2, posted by gazo on March 21, 2007, at 16:35:02
no worries, no offense taken.
Posted by JoniS on March 22, 2007, at 22:35:43
In reply to a newbie in love, posted by gazo on March 19, 2007, at 16:26:10
Just a simple piece of advice coming from someone with very similar experiences - use the time you have left to be completely honest with him. If you don't, you will likely be hard on yourself for a long time to come. Tell him how you feel so that you can respect yourself and get respect back. Trust the process. If he is any good, he will help you understand yourself and transition to new T
Best of luck
Joni
Posted by gazo on March 22, 2007, at 23:21:24
In reply to Re: a newbie in love, posted by JoniS on March 22, 2007, at 22:35:43
do you really think so? that i should tell him i mean.. i'm afraid to really.. he has held me at arm's length a bit because he knew he couldn't be here. i just don't know. :/ oh god i suck. How in god's name do you bring THAT up?
"hey, it's been great working with you and by the way... I'd like to ***** you"
???!!! That'd be an ice breaker.
he is good i think.. on the times when has allowed himself to connect with me we have had amazing sessions.
i want to tell him... but i don't have the nerve. i miss him already and he isn't gone yet.
Posted by JoniS on March 22, 2007, at 23:28:38
In reply to Re: a newbie in love *possible trigger phrase* » JoniS, posted by gazo on March 22, 2007, at 23:21:24
I was thinking something more like "... I want to tell you that I have very intense feelings for you and I'd like to get them out in the open..." that way you can go as deep as you're ready to. but don't hold on to them all. I did and then I held a lot of anger and regret when I wasn't more honest after a fairly abrupt termination. think it through, but don't waste an opportunity for personal growth - that's what therapy is all about, right?
Posted by gazo on March 23, 2007, at 9:19:04
In reply to Re: a newbie in love *possible trigger phrase*, posted by JoniS on March 22, 2007, at 23:28:38
> I was thinking something more like "... I want to tell you that I have very intense feelings for you and I'd like to get them out in the open..."
oh, lol! well that would be infinitely more appropriate than my version! Of course, i NEVER would have said to him what I said here.
>that way you can go as deep as you're ready to. but don't hold on to them all. I did and then I held a lot of anger and regret when I wasn't more honest after a fairly abrupt termination.
is it ok if I ask about the termination? it's ok if you don't want to answer... i feel like i am losing a limb. i think it's the reason these feelings have gotten so intense. i would never write on here what goes through my head.. it's embarrassing.
>think it through, but don't waste an opportunity for personal growth - that's what therapy is all about, right?
yes, it is. It's hard to remember that and not be caught up in the games our minds play.
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