![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 15 to 39 of 54. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on September 17, 2006, at 4:46:47
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger**, posted by alexandra_k on September 17, 2006, at 4:45:11
welcome to the club...
Posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 8:31:42
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » llrrrpp, posted by Daisym on September 17, 2006, at 0:33:27
> You did a very hard thing. You are very brave. I'm so glad your husband was able to hold you and let you tell your story. I'm amazed and jealous and impressed.
Thank you Daisy
> You are right - things won't ever be the same again. They might be worse for a little while and then they will be better. You are cleaning a wound, getting rid of the poisen. It can be painful and lonely and confusing. I hope you can let your therapist help you.
I can, and I will. Now that I'm starting to figure out why it's hard for me to be open, and particularly hard to be open to a man, who I perceive to have power over me-- I just want to start over again. Tell my story from the beginning.
> Go slow. Don't force things. If you get too flooded you can really cause yourself to have a break down. It isn't uncommon for old, suicidal feelings to resurface and this can mess with your mind. So be good to yourself and try to take breaks from thinking about it.I just want to get it out of my system. Today. Yesterday. I want to tell T everything. I want to tell PT how he triggered me, (even though he had no idea). or tell my guy buddy how a simple question: "what are you so afraid of?" made something "click" in my head. I just want to get it OUT.
But yes, you are right. It is dangerous and scary to overwhelm myself like this. Maybe I feel confident that I've got things figured out, but it's just the beginning. Even as I felt so relieved to tell my husband everything, I still broke down sobbing in bed, and asked him over and over again why he married me. And he had to rub my back until I fell asleep. I struggled with allowing myself to relax as he held me. I just wanted to hold onto the fear and the anxiety. It felt comfortable, somehow. I'm scared.
I woke up too early. I can't get my mind off of it. How little events are linked- how best to communicate these connections to my T. I feel like I'm trying to hold onto a 1200 page novel that I've memorized word for word. I'm scared that if I stop rehearsing it, I will forget it, and lose my chance to write down the most important story of my entire life.
I saw the sun rise. blush in the sky. tinting the buidlings a rosy color. Completely different from sunset. A different light. More ephemeral.
I know that if I don't take care of me that this insomnia will become very bad very quickly.
> I say all this from experience. I really do know how hard it is to give it a rest, or go slow. But it is better, really.
>
> Take care,
> DaisyThanks Daisy. Even if you didn't have experience, you write from a place of deep wisdom, and I sincerely thank you for helping me understand what is going on. I need to go slowly in my head, but go quickly in terms of getting T up to date with my current struggles. This is very difficult.
Posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 8:46:55
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger**, posted by alexandra_k on September 17, 2006, at 4:45:11
> > I'm not making a mountain out of a molehill.
>
> You don't have to have suffered severe abuse to justify not making a mountain out of a molehill. Feelings are feelings. They are justified because they are.Thank you Alex. I have to tell myself this OVER and OVER. I feel this way because I am HUMAN, not because I am (faulty/defective/a victim/ill/diseased/wrong/weak/female/imbecile/self-indulgent...)
> You were getting some place with therapy. You were focused on the present. Feelings and thoughts in the present that you were struggling with.
>
> Now...
>
> There is the 'tell your secrets of the past' (which are what makes present difficulty understandable) 'and then you will be cured' model.
>
> Yeah. It can be a significant change...
>
> A change in self identity even.
>
> Focusing on past harms can make one identify quite strongly as a victim of past injustice.I've always known that this happened to me. I always was aware of it. I just didn't make the connection between what happened TO me, and how it' affecting me right now. I think that the missing link was that I never allowed myself to feel it. Emotions are ways that our minds bind and consolidate many diverse senses of information into an easy-to-read format. I've known about things that are causing me anxiety in the present, like physical therapy, or going to see T or pdoc, or my dissertation, or even visiting my husband, who lives a few hundred miles away because he's in the military. I've known about things that made me feel anxious as a child. But I've never connected the two in my head before. I just buried the past.
T told me over and over again that it's going to get really hard. That I'm going to have feelings come up to the surface that I'm not prepared for. And that those feelings can be very scary, and make me feel like I'm losing my mind. I've experienced this four or five times in the last 6 months. I guess I was getting somewhere with therapy.
> There was stuff in the present...
>
> You didn't feel comfortable telling your t your thoughts and feelings.
>
> Do you feel like you have to be a happy bubbly person in order to earn love / acceptance?of course I do. It works well in casual friendships and for my relationships at work. It's a good skill to have. Maybe it's a strong facet of my personality, but once I get to know people better, I'm not afraid of showing them that I have a little depth too. It's just that I have this crippling anxiety and insecurity that I've never been able to shake, even in situations where I have nothing to fear-- I can tell myself this OVER and OVER, but I still can't extinguish it. Fear conditioning is very powerful ((((amygdala)))).
> I don't know what to say...
>
> Sometimes the path splits and one can't go back.
>
> I'm so sorry.I'm not sorry Alex. I didn't like my path. I WANT to have a choice. I don't WANT to go back. I will have to remind myself that turning around 180 degrees and LOOKING at the past doesn't mean that I'm headed in that direction. When I get to the fork in the road, I want to be able to look behind me and figure out which branch takes me furthest away, fastest.
-ll
Posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 8:49:38
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger**, posted by alexandra_k on September 17, 2006, at 4:46:47
> welcome to the club...
Thank you for your welcome, but will you be offended if I try to avoid putting myself in a category? I don't want to limit my options for who I am, what will happen to me, or what I should expect. I just want to do my own thing.
If it's a club of people who are doing their own things- sign me up. Oh wait. I'm already here. babbling.
-ll
Posted by alexandra_k on September 17, 2006, at 9:47:35
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » alexandra_k, posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 8:49:38
> Thank you for your welcome, but will you be offended...not offended at all.
you stay you.
:-)
welcome.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 17, 2006, at 10:10:25
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » alexandra_k, posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 8:46:55
> I feel this way because I am HUMAN...
Yeah. I think so. I have this philosophy... It isn't really an 'academic' philosophy position (though I like to think it is informed by and consistent with it) it is more a philosophy of life type thing...
I don't think there is an answer to the question 'when I stab your body with a pin why do YOU feel pain and not ME?'
aka
'why did my conscious experience get to be associated with my body'? (and not somebody elses body).
It can be hard to explain the problem sometimes... I guess if you haven't wondered it yourself it can be hard to get into the spirit of it. But the problem just occurs to some people.Anyway... I think that my conscious experience JUST IS the product of my brain processes (genes and maturation) and my environment (both natural and social). And given those things... My conscious thoughts, feelings etc are what they are. As such... In a way it doesn't make sense even to ask whether they are justified. They just are.
And if I had been associated with your body I'd be along for your ride, thinking your thoughts and feeling your feelings etc...
And if you had been associated with my body you would be along for mine...
And if your husband had been associated with your body he would be along for your ride...And so forth.
I don't know. Don't know if it makes sense... It helps me sometimes. To think of it that way. To kind of step back from myself and see myself a little more objectively. When I feel unacceptable. Because... I don't think anyone else is unacceptable. So... I guess I just am same as everyone else. Don't know if this makes sense...
> > There is the 'tell your secrets of the past' (which are what makes present difficulty understandable) 'and then you will be cured' model.
> > Yeah. It can be a significant change...Yeah. And the jury is still out on that model...
(There are alternative models)I think depression usually is a shutting down of feelings. Maybe because we think those feelings are unacceptable.
> > Do you feel like you have to be a happy bubbly person in order to earn love / acceptance?
> of course I do.Do you think love / acceptance is something that has to be earned?
That if you aren't happy and bubbly... Then you aren't worthy of love / acceptance?
> It works well in casual friendships and for my relationships at work. It's a good skill to have.
Yes. It is indeed a terrific skill to have. Sometimes what we need to do is to put on that happy face. Especially with casual friendships and working relationships.
But there can be a balance...
And sometimes putting on a happy face and not addressing those feelings (not acknowledging them, stuffing them, avoiding them) can lead to... Depression.
But there can be a balance...
> I have this crippling anxiety and insecurity that I've never been able to shake, even in situations where I have nothing to fear-- I can tell myself this OVER and OVER, but I still can't extinguish it. Fear conditioning is very powerful
Yeah.
Sometimes... Accepting the feeling for what it is (a feeling that is understandable) can help it lessen in intensity. But that being said... Easier said than done methinks...> > Sometimes the path splits and one can't go back.
> > I'm so sorry.
> I'm not sorry Alex. I didn't like my path.Yeah. I guess I was thinking about frameworks...
> I WANT to have a choice.
You have choices. I think you will have many choices...
> I will have to remind myself that turning around 180 degrees and LOOKING at the past doesn't mean that I'm headed in that direction. When I get to the fork in the road, I want to be able to look behind me and figure out which branch takes me furthest away, fastest.
Sometimes I think it is about...
Finding the middle path between escape and indulgence...
(In both cases it bites you on the *ss)
(This is mostly to me. I should say that).
Sorry...
I don't know what else to say...
Posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 14:38:21
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » llrrrpp, posted by alexandra_k on September 17, 2006, at 10:10:25
Alex, you write "Sorry...
I don't know what else to say..."You've said it. Or helped ME say it, which is even better. It's good. It's all good. I guess I'll just take llrrrpp along for the ride. I'm no dualist either. Consciousness is an inevitable consequence of my physical being. That doesn't mean that it has to make sense to me, but it cannot be excised either. I asked my husband today if he could just take some scissors and "snip-snip" the bad stuff out of my brain. He said um, well if all is okay in here (pointing to his heart) than it will all be okay in here (pointing to his head). I responded- okay, well can you "snip-snip" the bad stuff out of my heart then?
I don't know what the model is that me and T are working with. All I know is that I'm not strong enough to take this journey alone. I need all the help I can get, even as I resist it.
-ll
(thanks Alex. You're awesome. really)
Posted by alexandra_k on September 17, 2006, at 18:25:41
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » alexandra_k, posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 14:38:21
the trouble is...
the view is kinda paradoxical.
to consider consciousness on the one hand and the body / brain on the other and to consider that it is possible to seperate one from the other (so that identity follows consciousness)...
to even frame the question requires dualism. in order for it to be logically possible requires that consciousness and body are logically distinct.
or maybe... they aren't distinct in this world and they couldn't be seperated because of laws...
what are the psychophysical laws connecting my conscious experience with this body?
how would we go about finding out about those?
we can discover correlations between conscious experiences and certain kinds of brain states but what is the law ensuring the correlation holds?
identity?
supervenience?
contingent fact?
causation?
is there a law?to ask the question...
is to ask a question that has no answer.
w said that where a question could be asked
the question must be capable of being answered
if there was no possibility of answer
then the question is meaningless nonsense
(this is known as quietism)
shh
we can't think how to answer that
so you must stop asking meaningless questions.but it seems to make sense.
the aim of philosophy is to show the fly the way out of the flybottle...
or something
Posted by Daisym on September 17, 2006, at 18:37:59
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » alexandra_k, posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 14:38:21
I wish I could find my post on "therapy is NOT an after school special." I get so frustrated when things are portrayed as "Tell - cry - forgive - all better." Yeah - we wish.
But I think telling is an important part of the process for some of us. It is partly reclaiming your right to say "no" and partly a shuffling of lenses that we look at our history with. For example, telling about the abuse for me has felt (and feels) like a huge betrayal of my dad and my family. After all - weren't there times when my dad was nice? I know he loved me -- he bought me stuff and made me feel special. I literally thought of my dad as two people - good dad and bad dad. Last week it dawned on me that the gifts and special treatment were partially ways to keep me quiet and to keep me tied to him. I was devasted and very, very angry at my therapist. "I hate therapy - I lose more and more of the good dad everytime we talk about something." And yet, whose truth is it? Mine - obviously. And he didn't reframe anything I said -- I did it myself. But I think my brain has had enough of the conflict and I'm beginning to think that I didn't deserve the abuse, and in order to fully believe that, I need to view my guilt with a different lense.
Does that make any sense? I'm not going back to being a victim, I'm actually using the truth to lay the blame on the correct doorstep.
But, wow, is it painful. I'm glad I have someone to help me and declare "enough for now." I'm glad you have someone to help you too.
Posted by annierose on September 17, 2006, at 19:25:57
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » llrrrpp, posted by Daisym on September 17, 2006, at 18:37:59
That sounds like a painful but important step! Your work is so courageous (I know, I know, I keep saying that). A lot of us in therapy are facing some truths that are scary when the lights are shined on them. Unlike a haunted house that looks just dingy and dusty in daylight but scary at night.
>>>I lose more and more of the good dad everytime we talk about something." And yet, whose truth is it? Mine - obviously. And he didn't reframe anything I said -- I did it myself.<<<<
I know this feeling exactly, except the light is shining on my husband.
Posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 19:27:56
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » llrrrpp, posted by Daisym on September 17, 2006, at 18:37:59
Hi Daisy,
I think I gave up my "good dad" a long time ago. My dad is no longer my dad. He is someone else. He has had some brain damage that has removed big chunks of his memory. His personality changes completely every now and then. Right now he's in the "grumpy old man" phase. He is contrary to everything. He's mean and cruel, and it's easy for us to see him as bad dad, because we can blame it on his brain damage. I wish he had died. I hope he dies soon. I wish my brother had died back then too. Now he has a lovely family, but I see him as the old guy- only wearing a very durable mask. My husband has seen the mask crack though. My husband is scared for brother's wife and kids. Does she know his monsters? Does she really think that they are under control? I've decided that I may have never loved my dad. I decided that a while ago, I just didn't know why. It hurts-- knowing that a parent has lost the innocent love that children bestow so naturally. That he doesn't even deserve to live, in my opinion, well. I think he's had his tenure on this earth. He's done a lot of good things, even for me. So have many other people, but I don't love my first grade teacher, who taught me to love reading. I don't love my quartet coach, who gave me and three dear friends two years of his teaching and caring. I'm not sure that my dad has really done that much more for me than the gift of anxiety. Maybe I *should* have run away to grandma and grandpas.-ll
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 18, 2006, at 23:06:21
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » Daisym, posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 19:27:56
I'm going to see T tomorrow. Husband thinks I can make it through this. So do I. I bought a book on trauma. I'm really really appalled. I have been so blind, for so long. My eyes are blinded from the bright light, all of a sudden. I cannot believe that all my esoteric knowledge of memory and such may have only served to help me make a barrier between "those people" and myself. The enlightened one. Ouch. This light is glaring. My ignorance and arrogance are appalling. I'm such a fraud.
-Li (also the chemical symbol for Lithium, interestingly...)
Posted by alexandra_k on September 20, 2006, at 9:19:29
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » llrrrpp, posted by Daisym on September 17, 2006, at 18:37:59
> I'm beginning to think that I didn't deserve the abuse, and in order to fully believe that, I need to view my guilt with a different lense.
> Does that make any sense? I'm not going back to being a victim, I'm actually using the truth to lay the blame on the correct doorstep.
Yeah. I understand.
A way of alleviating guilt. Guilt and shame and embarrasment and maybe rage... Horrible feelings like that.
Is it possible... I just want to put this out there for your consideration... But is it possible... That blame is besides the point?
Posted by daisym on September 20, 2006, at 19:40:01
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » Daisym, posted by alexandra_k on September 20, 2006, at 9:19:29
That's a hard question because there is no real point here at all - I can't make him say he is sorry, or hold him accountable for screwing up so many things in my life.
But I can try to help myself see that the future can be different, because the common denominator of me =bad might be a faulty premise. And if the equation is faulty, then the outcome (that life will always be hard for me) might be wrong. So I need to "blame" the right person, because so far I blame myself. I need a different word - not blame, not fault, what? HIS sin, not mine?
But you are right. Blame is irrelevent in some ways, as is forgiveness. I believe that a higher power than I is the only place that forgiveness can really be given.
My therapist and I talked today about worthiness. Underneath everything, I feel worthless, not worthy of someone's caring, time or attention. Especially not someone that I care about. He kept trying to get me to define worthiness or worthlessness -- to explain why I was worthless. I finally settled on the word defective instead of worthless.
He looked so sad - but it is the truth. And I just don't know how to change it. I just know how to cover it over and hide the defect.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 20, 2006, at 20:23:27
In reply to Blame » alexandra_k, posted by daisym on September 20, 2006, at 19:40:01
((((Daisy))))
It is a hard thing :-(
I mean a really very hard thing indeed.> That's a hard question because there is no real point here at all - I can't make him say he is sorry, or hold him accountable for screwing up so many things in my life.
And even if he did say sorry it wouldn't undo anything. Even if he was held accountable it wouldn't undo anything.
> I can try to help myself see that the future can be differentYou aren't to blame. I hope you come to really see that. Not just intellectually, I really hope that you really come to see that.
> So I need to "blame" the right person, because so far I blame myself.
Maybe... Nobody is to blame. Maybe blame is besides the point in the sense that nobody is to blame. Maybe it isn't about putting the blame where it is due so much as it is about lifting the blame all around.
> I need a different word - not blame, not fault, what? HIS sin, not mine?
So somebody needs to take the blame?
Why can't the notion of blame, sin, whatever... Just be lifted? I guess it is hard when our hurts result from the actions of another. The ancients used to rail at volcanos and the like for erupting and causing devistation. I think people are more like volcanos mostly... What he did... Hurt you very much indeed :-( But I don't really understand what the notion of blame is doing except for resulting in you having contradictory feelings about loving and hating your Father. Seems to me that you can love him while still maintaining that his behaviour was very destructive for you at times, however.> But you are right. Blame is irrelevent in some ways, as is forgiveness. I believe that a higher power than I is the only place that forgiveness can really be given.
Maybe... Forgiveness is besides the point too. What is forgiveness anyway? If blame is lifted (from everyone) then what need to forgive? What could forgiveness mean?
> My therapist and I talked today about worthiness. Underneath everything, I feel worthless, not worthy of someone's caring, time or attention.And that was a consequence of what happened. That it left you feeling like that :-(
But of course that doesn't mean that was what your Father *intended* to happen.
That doesn't mean he thought that was *likely* to happen.
Maybe... He loved you the best way he knew how. Which is sad for him that he couldn't express care in a way that was more likely to leave you feeling cared about. Which is horrible for you in that you are left feeling like you are defective and incapable of being cared about.
Or maybe... He was so caught up in his own needs that he didn't see yours. Which can be hard... I am self absorbed at times :-( I understand that one too :-(
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 20, 2006, at 21:18:15
In reply to Re: Blame, posted by alexandra_k on September 20, 2006, at 20:23:27
I don't blame. Okay-- I blame Grandad, but he's long gone. Just because I don't blame my father though, doesn't mean that I cannot be angry with him for taking away some innocence of mine. I can still be angry without blame.
I guess the problem with blame is that it sets up some kind of cause-effect relationship that is very difficult to prove or even infer. It also sets up a dichotomy of the "guilty" and the "innocent" that is clearly delineated by a law. Sometimes there is not enough proof to demonstrate that a law was broken. Sometimes the laws we have aren't sufficient to explain the hurt we feel.
Anger & Hurt: these are more productive emotions than shame or guilt or blame. We do not have to sacrifice the good parts of our selves in order to feel angry or hurt. But in order to feel shame or to blame someone- we must necessarily admit that their action has changed us for the worse. I'm not sure that that admission is necessart or desirable.
Posted by Daisym on September 21, 2006, at 1:41:25
In reply to Re: Blame, posted by Lindenblüte on September 20, 2006, at 21:18:15
Anger & Hurt: these are more productive emotions than shame or guilt or blame. We do not have to sacrifice the good parts of our selves in order to feel angry or hurt. But in order to feel shame or to blame someone- we must necessarily admit that their action has changed us for the worse. I'm not sure that that admission is necessart or desirable.
****But then, to follow your line of thinking, aren't we sacrificing the truth? His action did change me for the worse. And yes, I'm mad as he!! about that. But I'm also deeply ashamed of these secrets - for my part in them and for him too. I'm holding all the emotions for both of us. (Talk about introjection!)So if no one is to blame, how do I organize my thoughts around it? My father sexually abused me - a whole range of abuse -- and he was violent at times and scary -- since I was 5 until I was 12. Then he left me and I didn't see or hear from him for years. If he isn't to "blame" what do I say -- he had his reasons? Or he couldn't help it? How do I describe his behavior?
Posted by muffled on September 21, 2006, at 5:07:35
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger » Lindenblüte, posted by Daisym on September 21, 2006, at 1:41:25
blame, shame, disgrace, ignomony, anger, rage, confusion, despair.......
Mere words.
That cannot ever convey true meaning. Not really.
Cuz how can you ever possibly convey such meaning REALLY.
You can't.
Its not possible.
There is such a huge network of interconnecting feelings and sensations, and lack thereof, and thots and realitys and unrealitys and truths and untruths, sanity, and insanity, and I could go on and on and on and on.
But there ARE NO WORDS.
Words can never say.
There is no sense or logic.
There is no reasoning.
Mebbe thats where at some point we have to trust somebody.
Trust.
How can there be trust.
How could such a miracle occur.
But if we trust someone to tell us the basic truths as best they can.
Keep it simple if not understandable.
If we can just know.
That we are who we are.
Moulded by lifes events.
That we as children did the best we knew how in our fear and aloness, and confusion.
That we didn't try and hurt out of viciousness.
That we knew so little of what should and shouldn't be.
That we were/are JUST kids.
I walk in the school.
I look at the children.
They know so little.
They try so hard.
What do they want?
They want to be valued, accepted.
They wanto feel safe and at peace.
I look at the child with shadows...
Do I feel revulsion?
NO.
Compassion.
For she is but a child.
I don't know what I trying to say.
Trying for words.
Where there are none.
Sorry.
((((((((((((((((Daisy))))))))))))))
(((((((((((((((Linden))))))))))))))
(((((((((((((((Kids))))))))))))))))
Posted by muffled on September 21, 2006, at 5:12:45
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger, posted by muffled on September 21, 2006, at 5:07:35
((((((((((((((((Daisy))))))))))))))
(((((((((((((((Linden))))))))))))))
(((((((((((((((Kids))))))))))))))))Sometimes...
nevermind.
Sometimes there just are no words.
I sit beside you.
Silent.
Loving.
Cuz you got value.
You just do.
Muffled.
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 21, 2006, at 8:09:16
In reply to Sorry,ignore above except...., posted by muffled on September 21, 2006, at 5:12:45
Muffled. I did not ignore the above. It was from your heart, and it was meaningful to me (and you too?). It's okay if it seems disorganized. That's the nature of the feelings/memories. Thanks for your words. Even when there are none. At least there's not a vacuum.
And for your hugs.
that was so beautiful. you made me cry a little.
I'm sitting next to you too. okay? (((Mufflie))) and (((Daisy))) and ((((Alex)))) and... ((((PBabblers))))... and all the others that know, or maybe don't know yet. Or know and have forgotten. Or they know but don't think it's wrong (yet?).
We can just sit on a park bench together, and pretend to be strangers, or not? We'll just be our witnesses.
hugs to kids. past and present.
and to worth, 'cause we just ARE.
We made it this far.
-L
Posted by antigua on September 21, 2006, at 8:49:54
In reply to Blame » alexandra_k, posted by daisym on September 20, 2006, at 19:40:01
I understand that sense of worthlessness. For me, it underlied everything. Let me see if I can explain. I constructed an elaborate set of beliefs about myself based on the abuse--that I was pretty, special, etc.--that helped me survive. Facing the abuse now, and attempting to face what kind of father he was, I felt that everything I believed about myself started to crumble. Because I wasn't special or pretty if he rejected me when he left me. There was nothing to hold me up; I felt the bottom had dropped out. If I wasn't those things that I identified with my father, what was I? Everything I believed about myself was wrong, and I was totally worthless. For me the word was also "hopeless". There was no hope left.
But what I've discovered (and it happened through hypnosis, although it was always there, I just didn't know) was that I don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water. I WAS pretty; furthermore, I was strong, competent etc., all those strengths that I had to develop to cope with the abuse.I guess what I am trying to say is when I hit bottom and felt so hopeless and helpless, I felt there was no core self to me. But I've discovered that there is. By identifying with the weak child I had thought I had nothing without him and his love. But I do. I see that now. I was definitely wrong about somethings (and I felt that if I was wrong about him being the loving father than I MUST be wrong about everything--again, I had no self).
But I see now that some of my core beliefs were defintely wrong, and I understand that I developed them to cope, but the basic essence of me is there, and it's pretty darned good is what I've decided. Many of the skills/strengths I developed to cope were good. It doesn't have to be a black and white question anymore for me. I see that now. Before, I only saw that if I was wrong about him, I was wrong about everything, which meant that I was hopeless.
I know I'm babbling, but wanted to talk.
best,
antigua
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 21, 2006, at 8:56:57
In reply to Re: Blame » daisym, posted by antigua on September 21, 2006, at 8:49:54
I'm scared.
I know what my coping mechanisms are/were. They feel like my entire personality.
I told my T- I'm so happy I don't have to be an actress anymore. BUT. If I'm not going to be an actress, who am I?
T said that the way I interact with him is almost always on an intellectual level. That's because that's what's SAFE for me. (Emotions and such: that stuff isn't safe.)
If I'm going to go deeper than just intellectual exploration of my psychology-- Well? What if I find out there's nothing "inside" me?
(troubled)
-Li
Posted by sunnydays on September 21, 2006, at 9:22:20
In reply to Re: Blame » antigua, posted by Lindenblüte on September 21, 2006, at 8:56:57
That worried me sooo much when I started therapy. My T just about fell out of his chair one day when I said, "You know, the problem is I don't really know who I AM anymore. I'm good at school, and things like that, but I don't know who I AM." Before that I would dance away from any emotions (and I still do a lot of the time), but when I admitted that I just felt empty, that's when I started realizing that wasn't so true after all. There are plenty of things inside you, Linden, you just haven't been paying attention to them. Once you do, you'll probably be really surprised like I was. Good luck. It is soooo hard to start feeling emotions when you haven't allowed them before.
sunnydays
Posted by Jost on September 21, 2006, at 11:26:25
In reply to Blame » alexandra_k, posted by daisym on September 20, 2006, at 19:40:01
Blaming someone is a stage-- an important stage, I think, even if it has its limits, its own type of damage.
I spent a lot of time caught up in destructive and intense relationships with both my parents. They were the only people who were real to me. And they and I were fundamentally such different people, with such different emotional needs, awarenesses, and temperaments-- we were always deeply in conflict.
I wanted a kind of warmth and recognition of --and support for-- my aspirations and my ways of looking at, understanding, working through things-- that they couldn't give me.
and they needed a daughter who was more like they were. I don't know who that was, but not me.
So yes, I spent years being angry and hurt and blaming myself, and blaming them-- and wishing and hoping that the next time would be different-- if I did something different, if I explained something better, if I were better. It never was.
I don't think you can help blaming yourself and blaming people who hurt you so much-- whether they "meant" to-- or, even if they meant to, if they really couldn't help it. They did it, and they didn't listen, they didn't try to change.
But then, eventually, I found that blaming them didn't matter any more. I don't know why. Partly I saw that they couldn't help it. Partly, I saw that there were better things somewhere else-- which was against their philosophy, too-- and that I could find people who did understand, and did care in a way that felt much better, that mattered.
So I think it's finding something better that allows you to let go-- let go of all these tangled emotions that muffled talked about-- it's not that you forgive (although you can do that, too)-- it's that you slowly let go, and it moves away from you, into the past, where it's more veiled, distant, less and less important, less and less what's real.
What's real is the better things, feelings, ways of being that you discover.
At least that's what I've found.
Jost
Posted by alexandra_k on September 21, 2006, at 18:07:22
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger » Lindenblüte, posted by Daisym on September 21, 2006, at 1:41:25
> So if no one is to blame, how do I organize my thoughts around it? My father sexually abused me - a whole range of abuse -- and he was violent at times and scary -- since I was 5 until I was 12. Then he left me and I didn't see or hear from him for years.
> If he isn't to "blame" what do I say -- he had his reasons? Or he couldn't help it? How do I describe his behavior?
You just did describe his behaviour. Descriptions... Don't have judgements in them. They can be neutral and objective.
You can plug in how you felt in response to the various things he did too. Therapy can help you see that your feelings are a pretty normal / natural response to those kinds of behaviours.
Is there an answer to the question 'why did he do those things'? I'm not sure that there is really. I know that often in my own case I 'make up' (confabulate) stories around my intentions. Sometimes I have no idea. Sometimes I think the 'why's' are a call for you to justify yourself and come up with a rationale. If you were to explain the way things 'really' are (which is about impossible in hindsight anyway) well... Have you read "The Stranger"?
You have nice memories too - don't you?
How do people see natural disaster?
Of course it is understandable to feel mad.
Lifting blame is a choice. It is a volountary action. I learned about it in DBT.
I guess I'm seeing it like this:
Thesis: Its my fault, I'm to blame.
Antithesis: Its his fault, he's to blame.And back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and how to get off?
Transcendence: Blame is besides the point. Lift the blame.
That doesn't mean you aren't allowed to / can't feel angry. When you feel angry don't blame yourself for feeling angry. It is a consequence of what happened. It is an understandable consequence of what happened.
But you can feel angry without blame...
Like if a volcano erupts causing mass destruction...
You can be understandably sad and mad and hurt and vulnerable and scared...
And it doesn't have to be anybodies fault.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.