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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 14 to 38 of 38. Go back in thread:
Posted by annierose on April 4, 2006, at 12:05:02
In reply to More explanation, posted by Daisym on April 4, 2006, at 11:41:53
You are fighting an honorable battle. You will win. You will destroy those monsters one by one. Your T will help hold them still so you can aim those daggers more directly.
We are all behind you on your single file line, gently nudging you forward. It's okay to rest, to pause.
You are so worth love. That love you found is within you. You are love.
Whenever you need any of us, we will be there for you. Just as you have been there for me. You are so giving. I know you don't want to hear that, but you give all the time.
We won't let you run away. We'll keeping running beside you --- I haven't been working out like crazy for nothing. I have endurance. But I do respect your need for privacy, for wanting to beat these demons alone. Just let your T help you. He went to monster school. He knows how to destroy those pesky devils. It isn't fun, it's hard, but working together, I just know you can do it!!
((((((((( Daisy )))))))))))))))
Posted by fallsfall on April 4, 2006, at 12:15:06
In reply to More explanation, posted by Daisym on April 4, 2006, at 11:41:53
(((((Daisy)))))
I'll sit on the floor next to his couch and smooth your hair. I'll sing a soft song if you want. I'll just sit there and be with you. You don't have to be alone.
I understand about the single file. But we are right behind you. RIGHT behind you. Maybe you should wear a hooded sweatshirt, so I can hold on to the hood. That way you have your hands free, but I can pull you back if things get too dangerous.
Please let me stay with you.
I love you,
Falls
Posted by All Done on April 4, 2006, at 12:21:02
In reply to More explanation, posted by Daisym on April 4, 2006, at 11:41:53
(((Daisy))),
I'm not exactly sure why you think you have to do this alone. Who said the path narrows to one lane at any point in your journey? You've been through this alone once before and that never should have happened. You don't have to go through it alone this time. In fact, I don't know that you *should* be alone. Strength in numbers, right?
There is no shame in needing someone else through *all* of this. It isn't a closed-book exam where you can't get help from your teacher or classmates. There is no one waiting to see if you can do this on your own except you. And why? What will you prove to yourself? What will you gain from doing it on your own? Why are you worried about protecting everyone else? You are the one who needed protection and didn't get it.
Your T is there for you. I don't think you need to uncurl from the couch just yet, if you're not ready.
(((((Daisy)))))
Laurie
Posted by Dinah on April 4, 2006, at 12:50:23
In reply to More explanation, posted by Daisym on April 4, 2006, at 11:41:53
How does your therapist feel about your doing it alone single file theory? I'm not saying you're not right. Sometimes we have to trust out gut.
But my therapist would fight me on that one. He thinks isolating is a very bad thing, and he dislikes that I would have to lose Babble if I moved and lost him almost more than he dislikes my losing him.
Posted by madeline on April 4, 2006, at 13:15:37
In reply to Re: More explanation » Daisym, posted by annierose on April 4, 2006, at 12:05:02
Annierose,
The beauty and power of your post nearly took my breath away. I think I'm going to save it.Daisy,
I am with Annierose, I have a great pair of track shoes, and I can run right with you. If there are parts you have to go through by yourself, then go, but by all means go knowing that you are loved. Very very loved.
Posted by Poet on April 4, 2006, at 13:15:55
In reply to More explanation, posted by Daisym on April 4, 2006, at 11:41:53
((((((Daisy))))))
I understand you wanting to go down that narrow path alone. I think you're a lot like me: I struggle in frustration to be strong enough not to depend on anyone else, be it my T or people here.
Remember if you need help to face those monsters, don't run away from the monster, don't stand it alone in fear, we're here. Your T is there for you, too. As much as I feel a hypocrite saying this- you don't have to do this alone.
More safe cyber hugs.
Poet
Posted by orchid on April 4, 2006, at 14:13:59
In reply to More explanation, posted by Daisym on April 4, 2006, at 11:41:53
Hi Daisy,
First of all, you are so wrong on this idea that you are not of help to anyone. And that you cannot ask for help if you don't offer. I personally, when I was hurting so immensely a while back, got so much of healing done just by reading what you wrote about your own struggles - by how your therapist responded to you, reading his extremely wise words, and found my own healing through his words to you, since we had a similar kind of struggle. You have been of immense help, without even knowing about it. So please don't hesitate to write and ask for help if you need. You are doing *us* a favor by writing here.And besides, even if someone is not emotionally capable of helping at some point, it is completely ok to just ask for help. You don't have to take turns. I am sure many of us here, just want to help whenever we can - because it helps us to help others. When I write something of help to someone, I feel good about myself too. And I heal through helping others as well. I got lot of my self esteem from the very fact that what I used to write helped other people. So even if you look at it from this perspective, you end up doing *me* a favor by asking for help.
So please don't hesitate to ask for help whenever you want.
And it really pains to see you suffering so much. I think I can understand the pain to some extent, but maybe not fully. Only you will be able to understand it to the full extent. And I think you are somewhat right in having to face the monster by yourself. All of us end up having to deal with our own innermost private monsters by ourself, even if there is plenty of help around us - the final pass, most likely we have to make it by our own - day after day, during nights mostly, when we lie awake and try to understand what the heck is going on with us. And sometimes we don't even understand if you really want to get better, or if we just want to keep hurting. I know when I was hurting, I didn't want to get better - because getting better meant, to me at that time, faking it. I didn't really believe, there would ever come a day when I would be genuinely happy. I used to think whatever happiness I can feel, I can feel only by faking it - smiling artificially and superficially, and perhaps doing things from my logical mind when my emotional side continues to suffer horribly. But I have to say, that it does pass. And eventually when you get through the series of dark tunnels, you start to appreciate things in life for real. You start to enjoy comedies, jokes, pleasant things in life, and you no longer fake it. The laughther and smile becomes real and it feels ok to be able to *feel ok*. That day will come. It definitely will. All you need to do is keep going through these dark tunnels, one by one, and slowly and carefully, taking whatever support and help you can find, and carrying the words with you as your arms.
And I think perhaps the part you meant about the most basic reflexes being painful, maybe you feel the parts of you that want your therapist sexually, triggers a lot of deep down pains and fears of your abuse. Maybe you feel very uncomfortable feeling sexual about someone and it triggers so much of pain and uncomfort that it feels almost impossible to deal with it. But I think as you keep working out on the issue, then one day, you will be able to accept your feelings too.
Hang in there, and do ask for help.
Posted by LadyBug on April 4, 2006, at 14:21:40
In reply to More explanation, posted by Daisym on April 4, 2006, at 11:41:53
Posted by TherapyGirl on April 4, 2006, at 14:34:21
In reply to More explanation, posted by Daisym on April 4, 2006, at 11:41:53
Daisy, I wish there was some way I could help you carry the pain until you get through it.
I did have this thought when I was reading your imagery about the single-file path. If it helps, hang on to it. If not, just move on by it.
I've been doing some PTSD guided imagery. In one of the exercises, you and a special guide (for me, it's my T) are walking down through your broken heart to the place that isn't damaged by the trauma. Once you get there, a long line of supporters (angels, friends, family, ancestors, whatever) walk towards you bringing pieces of your heart back to you. I couldn't help recalling that image, which is very powerful for me, when I read your post. So if it would help, feel free to picture us Babblers as a large group -- half behind you and half walking towards you.
Posted by Daisym on April 4, 2006, at 15:18:01
In reply to Re: More explanation » Daisym, posted by annierose on April 4, 2006, at 12:05:02
Annie,
*** Just let your T help you. He went to monster school. He knows how to destroy those pesky devils. It isn't fun, it's hard, but working together, I just know you can do it!!***
This post was orginally a letter to my therapist, with lots of other stuff in it. I took him that letter this morning. After we read it together, I said that I heard little daisy whispering that she sure hoped he had done to monster school. He reassured her (me) that indeed he had, although the monsters keep changing so we might have to use some trial and error.
It was a painful session. I think he thinks I'm mad at him. Am I?
Posted by Daisym on April 4, 2006, at 15:19:58
In reply to Re: More explanation, posted by fallsfall on April 4, 2006, at 12:15:06
I have a huge need to protect you. HUGE. So yes, you can stay close but I have to peek first and make sure it is safe enough for both of us. Perhaps little daisy can stay back with you?
And wouldn't it be great if you could, indeed see S's office. That would mean a lot to me.
Nothing helps as much as being loved. Thank you for that.
Daisy
Posted by Daisym on April 4, 2006, at 15:30:04
In reply to Re: More explanation » Daisym, posted by All Done on April 4, 2006, at 12:21:02
Laurie,
You sound exactly like my therapist this morning. Except, he agreed that there are parts of this I have to face "alone." Although his definition and ine of "alone" are different. He thinks only I can bring out all these feelings and memories so that I can be supported and heard. But I have to face them first, in order to get them out.
He asked me if I was losing confidence that he could help me. He said in the softest voice, "I've helped you before." I almost missed it. I asked if he was reminding me, or himself. He said "both." Becaus the journey is hard and he feels sad for me. He asked if it was OK that he felt sad for me. "no" --- and yes. I told him I'd be OK and I will. He said, "I know sometimes you really aren't OK." This made the tears well up and I told him "fine, so you be OK enough for both of us."
He asked me if this was all too much, how hard is hard? I said it brought me to my knees last night in a way I didn't know existed. He had some suggestions but mostly reminded me that technology exists for a reason -- use it!
He said my spot on the couch is safe and mine for as long as I needed it. But this is where I railed at him -- no it isn't mine. It will be locked away from me next week. So I have to do this on my own, don't I?"
He said in his perfect therapist's voice, "we have to talk about my vacation. You can't keep pretending it isn't going to happen. We have to attend to our connection and make it OK for you while I'm gone." I told him he really would have to be magic for it to be OK for him to be gone. And then I left.
Guess what we'll be talking about tomorrow?
Posted by Daisym on April 4, 2006, at 15:31:55
In reply to Re: More explanation » Daisym, posted by Dinah on April 4, 2006, at 12:50:23
He said single file is OK. But he wants to take turns leading. And he said he has the flashlight, so I need him, even from behind me.
He always makes it hard to argue with him.
Posted by annierose on April 4, 2006, at 15:52:58
In reply to Re: More explanation, posted by Daisym on April 4, 2006, at 15:31:55
No Daisy, I don't think you are mad at him. But I do think all those feelings of rage are coming out. And in the past, your brain has associated love with pain. The people that were suppose to love you with all their hearts, protect you from harms way, didn't.
I identify so much with the feelings you describe. I even wrote to Falls last night that I hate that my T is being so darn nice, so kind and sweet. I hate her for that. It's not what we expect, the patience, the kindness, the love.
Logically, that makes no sense. But our brains work in mysterious ways. We need to untangle that web, destroy those monsters.
His vacation??!?!?! Oh Daisy, I know it seems like a mountain to get over. Take each day at a time. Try not to think too far out. I won't be around either (if it's Easter week); I wish I could be a source of support. I liked the image of dumping all my stuff on my T's lap, holding it for me until she returns.
Posted by gardenergirl on April 4, 2006, at 17:27:35
In reply to Re: More explanation, posted by Daisym on April 4, 2006, at 15:31:55
Daisy,
First, I definitely relate to your abandoning threads thing. I feel I'm doing something similar. For me, it's sort of like I need to say some things, but I don't really have the emotional energy to sustain a dialog about them. I guess. I'm not quite sure how that fits in with the idea that I'm doing better, though.And about needing to deal with things alone...when I read your posts in this thread, I had a feeling that what you are feeling seems really really authentic. It's hard for me to put this into words, because it's more of a feeling and non-verbal concept for me, but I'll try.
When I get to a really authentic place, there's sort of a feeling of strength in that, even if the feelings themselves are painful, scary, or in some other way "negative". I guess it feels like empowerment in some way to finally feel that fit between your head and your heart so purely. I may be way offbase, but your words remind me of that feeling.
And that feeling is personal. It's your own truth and authenticity. I think others can see it and resonate with it perhaps, but it's just uniquely YOURS. I don't quite no how else to say it, but it makes a certain sense to me that you would feel moved to go forward at this point alone.
I may be wrong. But I don't see moving forward "alone" as necessarily a bad thing. Ultimately, I think it's really only within ourselves that growth, healing, etc. occurs. But I think it's also important to know that others are still present for you. Your journey may be inside at this time, but the connections you have to those who love you will not go away. You don't have to talk to us or do anything for us, but we will be here, loving you and standing up with you anyway, ready to offer an oasis when needed.
If nothing else is on target, please know that I care. I always will.
((((Daisy))))
gg
Posted by Daisym on April 4, 2006, at 18:30:53
In reply to For Annierose Daisy, posted by madeline on April 4, 2006, at 13:15:37
Thanks Maddy. I wish I could run through this, but the way is dark and murky so I have to go slow. I wish I could say I was trail blazing because then it might be worth it. On the other hand, I don't want anyone else to come down this particular path.
Posted by Daisym on April 4, 2006, at 18:33:59
In reply to Re: More explanation » Daisym, posted by Poet on April 4, 2006, at 13:15:55
I DO have to do this alone but I'm starting to think I don't have to be alone while I do it...does that make sense? I'm having a hard time this afternoon facing what it means to not have my therapist for 10 whole days, which is nothing compared to lots of people here. Worse, I don't want to talk about other supports. I just want to be able to take care of myself.
And i want desperately for you guys to come and get me and keep me together at camp comfort.
Posted by Daisym on April 4, 2006, at 18:38:34
In reply to Re: More explanation » Daisym, posted by orchid on April 4, 2006, at 14:13:59
I'm so glad you can feel real happiness. You've worked through a lot of things.
You missed the mark a little though...I don't have sexual feelings for my therapist, though I know I love him. What I want isn't to seduce him, but rather to give myself over to him to be rescued. Which is much more dangerous. But I know he can't, nor anyone else, undo what was done. The basic reflexes I was talking about where things like going to the bathroom or taking showers and feeling safe; or sleeping at night without fear of instrusion from dreams. Not so much to ask, I don't think. Impossible to imagine though.
Posted by Daisym on April 4, 2006, at 18:41:08
In reply to Re: Time for a Pause » daisym, posted by LadyBug on April 4, 2006, at 0:21:37
wouldn't it be nice if we COULD take a break from life? And thank you for saying my writings help you. I get really unsure of myself around posts. I think they are too long, to detailed and too morose.
Marriage is so complicated and makes all this stuff even harder. I think we should be able to medicate our husbands at will. :)
Posted by Daisym on April 4, 2006, at 18:51:45
In reply to Re: Time for a Pause » daisym, posted by pegasus on April 4, 2006, at 10:46:16
Well said, Peg. I apologize for not seeing the strength of each of you individually and collectively. But no fair throwing the "what would you say to me" thing back out there. This is a do as I say, not as I do moment.
And thanks for the lifetime pass. I might need it. As long as you promise to stay tough and honest. I need that.
Posted by Daisym on April 4, 2006, at 19:12:11
In reply to Oh, no -- I don't *think* so! » daisym, posted by Racer on April 4, 2006, at 0:56:24
***OK, you think the replies are too nice? Too kind? How about I offer a little Tough Love, then?
<<<My thought here was, "yeah, let me have it."***What you're talking about is running away, and you know it. It's scary, and it hurts, and I'm sure you are afraid you'll blast off into violence sometimes. But you have a support network, no matter how hard it is for you to make use of it.
<<<You are absolutely right. I want to run away. I don't want to keep failing, at home, at work, with my kids, I even put my favorite wool sweater in the dryer. I feel like I can't do ANYTHING right. So I want to throw things. And break glasses. And scream and scream and scream. I hear the screaming in my head. I want someone else to hear it too.***Go back and read the archives -- all the people here who offer the most support and affection to others, I'd bet, have also gone through periods in which they do nothing except beg for help and support from others. You can look at it from one of two perspectives: either it all comes out in the wash, or there's no score keeper here. If this is your time to need, it's someone else's time to give. Sort of a microcosm of the larger world, you know? This gives you practice for real life, where I'll bet the last time you asked someone for their support on a personal level was when you were about three years old. And yet, in that time, haven't you offered a heck of a lot of support to others? Often without their asking for it?
<<<Not true. Last week I told my therapist that what I needed was for him to not make me analyze why I felt suicidal but instead to give me some concrete instructions about how to handle it. And he did, gently of course but he knew I had no capacity left to make decisions. So that was asking for support. And I do it was other people. Giving for me isn't pure, it is my way to control things. So it doesn't count.***Daisy, I'm so sorry this is so hard, and so frightening for you. And I'll bet you're ready to drop it all and walk away. Same way, when your kids were young, you probably had days when you wanted to walk away from them, too. But just as you took care of your children, you get to take care of YOU now. And somehow, that's even harder than taking care of anyone else. But I know you well enough to know that you don't back down from a challenge.
<<<This won't work. The challenge is to end it. All of it. Not to stick it out. Wallowing in it, spreading the negativity, giving voice to the anger, that is all selfishly motivated and easy to do. Living with this stuff, diffusing the anger, or actually taking your own life, those are harder to do. YOU are braver than me...you've worked through so many of your issues, and you are still trying to work through the rest. I feel depleted and small. Worse, I don't think I want to be brave. I want to be rescued.***So, stick around. See what people have to offer, and what you can offer back -- if anything. And if you ain't got nothin' right now, s'OK. You'll have something another time. Babble is a little like Stone Soup, you know? We all bring what we can, when we can -- and that includes our pain and our needs.
>>>I'm good with illusions, Racer. I can make the best stone soup ever. But the base will be salty from my tears, even as I convince you it is the best soup you ever tasted.***Hey -- when your kids were young, did you think less of them for needing you? Did you think they were pathetic because they didn't meet all their own needs? So, uh, could you tell me why it's so different for you? Besides you needing to be perfect, that is?
>>>What? I'm not perfect? When did that secret get out? You said it yourself, we can do for others what we can't do, or even imagine, for ourself. I'm not a kid anymore, and the realities are that I need to meet my own needs. But I'll help you meet yours too.***And Daisy? Your T is telling you the truth, that he can take care of himself. Hard as it is, trust him on that one, eh? Hasn't he proven himself so far?
>>>Yes, he has. And I know he will. He told me on Friday that taking my own life would be a lifelong burden for him to carry and he said, "this is unfair to say but I'm saying it anyway." And that was enough to help me shut down those feelings. But they don't want to stay shut down. So it is so easy to reach the conclusion that I shouldn't have allowed the connection in the first place, because I'm going to hurt him, or you, or other people here on babble eventually.
Thanks for the tough love. You made me think.
Posted by Daisym on April 4, 2006, at 19:19:02
In reply to Re: Time for a Pause » daisym, posted by B2chica on April 4, 2006, at 9:14:46
B2,
It is hard for me to find the right reply to you. I worry about you a lot and know how much you are hurting and struggling. I worry that my words, my paragraphs and posts are so triggering for you. And i know you are keeping it together but just barely, so I want to be careful with you.
And yet, I feel so connected to little B2 that I want to share stories and hear all her grief. So it is a hard balance. I want you to be OK with talking for her and with her, like I'm learning to do. I don't want to hurt her, or you, ever. I worry about typing out angry words that are upsetting.
I guess I just worry.
Thanks for the hug.
Daisy
Posted by Racer on April 4, 2006, at 20:27:12
In reply to Oh, no -- I don't *think* so! long reply/ trigger » Racer, posted by Daisym on April 4, 2006, at 19:12:11
>
>
> So I want to throw things. And break glasses.You know... I've read, and I think it might be worth thinking about, that it can be good and healing and therapeutic to buy a case of cheap glasses and smash them against the wall. Really and truly, if you want to try that, I would join you. I think for both of us it would be good to experience that sort of letting go, letting it out, throwing things.
>
> Giving for me isn't pure, it is my way to control things. So it doesn't count.
>OMG! Daisy! You've got the same problem I do! "It ain't enough to do good, you gotta do good with the right intentions..." No, that's not true. The RESULTS matter more than the intent. That's part of what we're trying to learn in therapy.
Hypothetical: Say you've got a guy, and this guy is lonely, he would do almost anything to have just someone else nearby, he can't stand being alone. Well, he's got a huge house that stands up through an earthquake when everyone else's house breaks. The guy tells everyone in the area to come stay at his house, he's got lots of food, and lots of room, and lots of extra blankets, (and a bunch of brownies AllDone baked for you) Does that guy get any credit at all for providing space for people who've lost their houses? Or does he only get criticism for using the natural disaster to get his own needs met?
Don't answer that, Daisy -- just let it percolate.
> YOU are braver than me...you've worked through so many of your issues, and you are still trying to work through the rest. I feel depleted and small. Worse, I don't think I want to be brave. I want to be rescued.Yeah? And? I think we *all* want to be rescued. Welcome to the human race, eh? I'm hardly braver than you are -- but I think we're both brave enough for what we need.
Or maybe it's not about bravery at all. It's more about being stubborn or pigheaded enough to keep going, or maybe I just don't have enough imagination to see anything beyond the two choices: suicide or therapy. If I choose therapy, and it doesn't work out, suicide is always Plan B. (And Daisy? Suicide is harder than you think.)
So, until we're rescued...
>
>
>I'm not a kid anymore, and the realities are that I need to meet my own needs. But I'll help you meet yours too.And that's fair because? When we take both cats to the vet, we take them in the same carrier. The little cat freaks out, but she calms herself by licking the big cat. Give us all a chance to -- oh, never mind. Bad analogy. I like you, Daisy, a lot -- but I don't want to lick your face, 'K? {ducking}
>
>So it is so easy to reach the conclusion that I shouldn't have allowed the connection in the first place, because I'm going to hurt him, or you, or other people here on babble eventually.
>I think that's something to explore with your T, because it kinda feels as though this might have something to do with the fundamental problem: that you've experienced that connection as being painful, and now you're expecting that you'll pass on that pain through other connections. I'm hardly coherent today, but I can *feel* what I mean, you know? Your parents -- BOTH of them -- betrayed you, and hurt you. But that's still your most basic experience of what love is. Maybe it's time to update your emotional definitions?
I don't know, Daisy. But I hope you have a way to take comfort from somewhere right now. How about a cat?
Posted by Dinah on April 5, 2006, at 8:54:06
In reply to Re: More explanation » Poet, posted by Daisym on April 4, 2006, at 18:33:59
> I DO have to do this alone but I'm starting to think I don't have to be alone while I do it...does that make sense?
Tons of sense. That was what I was trying, however clumsily, to say.
Posted by pegasus on April 5, 2006, at 10:14:24
In reply to Re: Time for a Pause » pegasus, posted by Daisym on April 4, 2006, at 18:51:45
"This is a do as I say, not as I do moment."
Yes, I understand. :) You're right, it wasn't fair. ;)
I just wanted to add that I'm getting so much out of this particular thread. One one hand I can relate to your struggle, and on the other I think sometimes I can be so opposite. So I'm empathizing and learning at the same time. I think it's helping me open up my own feelings and perceptions in a way that I need.
Your struggle is so bittersweet. It's good work that you're doing. I see you pushing so hard at such rock solid walls, and little chips are falling off of them. I want to cheer when I see that. You're so brave and articulate and persistent, even when you're pulling back and getting scared. (Yeah, you can be brave in being scared.)
And then, it's so painful that I want to cry for you. Why can't the dang wall just crumble already?
Similarly, I think it's so sweet that you want to protect everyone around you from pain. So many people push their stuff outside themselves without being able to think about the people in their environment (I'm like this a lot, I think). And then I see how much your effort and concern about others makes your struggle harder and more painful.
I don't know what I'm trying to say here. One part of it is that I want you to please keep letting us into your struggle, as long as it is helpful to you. It's definitely been helpful to me to know about it.
hugs
peg
This is the end of the thread.
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