![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 45. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Lorelai on October 1, 2002, at 16:51:25
Please, is there anyone else out there who has a similar experience? I have an alter ego who steps in and handles problems for me. She's done so for years and since for me, she's been a lifesaver, I've never told anyone about her before. Just figured it was okay since I was aware of her and she's only been a positive in my life. I don't consider myself to have multiple personalities because of my awareness of Alice. I mean, aren't multiples unaware of their different personalities? This only got confusing for me when I told other people. Before then, I was fine with it. Anyway, I finally mentioned my alter, half-jokingly, to my fiance, who insisted I tell my pdoc (I'm in therapy for my erratic behaviors and have been diagnosed with bipolar disorder). So I'm just starting to open up to my pdoc and tell her about my alter (my alter's been with me since age 17--I'm 43). To make a long story short, the pdoc told me I'm "very good at disassociating," have been through a lot of trauma and since she's inexperienced with this type of thing, she's referred me to another pdoc--*sigh*. I feel very alone here and to tell you the truth, I find myself wishing I hadn't mentioned this to her. I was really starting to trust her and feel close to her and now (just today) she gives me this news. I'm hoping there's at least ONE person out there who knows what I'm talking about! I don't FEEL insane. I just sometimes can't handle situations and Alice will calmly step up to the plate, tell me, "Take a break, Lorelai," and I don't have to worry. Thanks for any replies. If I've posted this to the wrong board, I apologize in advance.
~Lorelai
Posted by Dinah on October 1, 2002, at 17:07:34
In reply to Disassociative Disorder/Alter Egos, posted by Lorelai on October 1, 2002, at 16:51:25
I'm so sorry Lorelai. I understand intellectually that if a pdoc or therapist doesn't feel she is qualified to work in a particular area, that she is professionally obligated to refer the client to another one who is. But I imagine it feels awful anyway.
I do understand what you mean, and I don't think dissociation is "insane" at all. I think it's just a creative way to cope with things, a learned skill coupled with a natural self hypnotic ability.
May I suggest a couple of books that look at dissociation in a calm and helpful manner - not sensational at all. My favorite is the Myth of Sanity by Martha Stout. There is also The Stranger in the Mirror by Marlene Steinberg. Both discuss dissociative styles of coping which are less along the spectrum than true dissociative identity disorder (formerly multiple personality disorder).
Don't worry too much about it. You are not alone, and it is not crazy.
Take care,
Dinah
Posted by Ginjoint on October 1, 2002, at 21:35:33
In reply to Disassociative Disorder/Alter Egos, posted by Lorelai on October 1, 2002, at 16:51:25
Hi Lorelai...
I'm really sorry that your pdoc felt it was necessary to refer you to someone else. Like Dinah said, I understand it intellectually but rebuilding that closeness with a new person is extremely draining...not to mention the sense of abandonment you might feel. My heart goes out to you.
I don't think what you describe sounds strange at all. I think it's a coping mechanism that creative people are prone to. :) Do you remember everything that happens while "Alice" is in charge? The answer to that might help reveal whether this is a problem or not. You know, it kind of sounds like this alter is a hidden resevoir of strength for you, the kind of friend who helps you move to a new apartment or who shows up with bail money. ;)
Cheers,
Ginjoint
Posted by Lorelai on October 1, 2002, at 21:53:04
In reply to Re: Disassociative Disorder/Alter Egos » Lorelai, posted by Dinah on October 1, 2002, at 17:07:34
> I'm so sorry Lorelai. I understand intellectually that if a pdoc or therapist doesn't feel she is qualified to work in a particular area, that she is professionally obligated to refer the client to another one who is. But I imagine it feels awful anyway.
>
> I do understand what you mean, and I don't think dissociation is "insane" at all. I think it's just a creative way to cope with things, a learned skill coupled with a natural self hypnotic ability.
>
> May I suggest a couple of books that look at dissociation in a calm and helpful manner - not sensational at all. My favorite is the Myth of Sanity by Martha Stout. There is also The Stranger in the Mirror by Marlene Steinberg. Both discuss dissociative styles of coping which are less along the spectrum than true dissociative identity disorder (formerly multiple personality disorder).
>
> Don't worry too much about it. You are not alone, and it is not crazy.
>
> Take care,
> DinahHi Dinah,
Thanks for this. I'll definitely look into finding these books! I've been in a funk all day and into this evening, but found your post helpful and comforting (doesn't help that I'm on new meds--always a weird time for me).
It's going to be an adjustment to find myself suddenly working with a new pdoc. Doc S says she'll still be checking in with me, having short sessions with me to make sure things are going okay. So at least it's not total abandonment. It was a shock when she told me she just wasn't qualified to deal with me. I'd just let her know about Alice last week and felt a little spooked, but glad at the same time. I felt like I was making some headway. Then WHAM! She hit me with this news today. So I'm still sort of numb. I appreciate your post very much.
Best,
Lorelai
Posted by Lorelai on October 1, 2002, at 22:31:58
In reply to Re: Disassociative Disorder/Alter Egos, posted by Ginjoint on October 1, 2002, at 21:35:33
> Hi Lorelai...
>
> I'm really sorry that your pdoc felt it was necessary to refer you to someone else. Like Dinah said, I understand it intellectually but rebuilding that closeness with a new person is extremely draining...not to mention the sense of abandonment you might feel. My heart goes out to you.
>
> I don't think what you describe sounds strange at all. I think it's a coping mechanism that creative people are prone to. :) Do you remember everything that happens while "Alice" is in charge? The answer to that might help reveal whether this is a problem or not. You know, it kind of sounds like this alter is a hidden resevoir of strength for you, the kind of friend who helps you move to a new apartment or who shows up with bail money. ;)
>
> Cheers,
> GinjointThanks, Ginjoint!
Interesting that you and Dinah both pointed out the "creative person" idea since I'm a creative writer. I've often wondered if I'd BE an artistic sort if I weren't a little bit of an odd duck. I sometimes feel as though it was some sort of trade-off, that we all start out in the Cosmic Soup and we're given a choice of being bland and "normal," or creative and "out there." (:
Yeah, it's going to be strange getting used to a new pdoc. At least the new one comes highly recommended, but I have such a tough time with new people to begin with. Have always found most people a huge psychic/emotional drain, if that makes any sense. And I've found it difficult to trust and/or relate to pdocs in the past (I am NOT in therapy by choice, but because my friends, fiance and family pretty much insist on it). So I worry I'll just revert to my old ways and clam up or start telling this one what I think she wants to hear, just so she'll be happy. Old tactics.
In answer to whether I always know what's going on when Alice is in charge--most of the time I'm aware of most everything, though sometimes things get spotty (I call 'em memory gaps). And there've been a few times when she's tried to oust men from my life when she didn't want me involved with them, tried to sabotage the relationship by saying or doing things in direct opposition to what I'd been saying/doing (so, okay, she's not a complete angel, but she IS always looking out for my best interests).
When what's going on is extremely traumatic, my level of participation dwindles and, depending on just how traumatic the situation, I either fade in and out or I'm just gone and may never recall the details. I was married to an abusive alcoholic for nearly 10 years and toward the end of our marriage things progressively worsened. He would come home drunk and angry and start getting in my face. Alice would step in, I would zone out, and my now-ex would grow more and more furious because, try as he might, he could get zero reaction from me. Alice is impervious to physical pain. She's impervious to ridicule and intimidation. So those crisis-times when she's stepped in and I've gone blank, she's been a shield and probably kept me from completely losing it.
I guess what bothers me--and it bothers Alice, too (: --is that I don't want to let her go. The pdoc said something today about "pulling it all together" and that felt scary, like she was hinting that Alice had to go in order for me to be okay. I feel like Alice is NOT unhealthy though. Call me insecure, but I'd rather have her around when the chips are down. I do talk to Alice, btw. We have conversations. I never do this when other people are around. I think it's just a technique I've used throughout the years to settle myself down. Maybe--? (:
Thanks for reply and for the concern. It helps!
All the Best,
Lorelai
Posted by judy1 on October 1, 2002, at 22:48:44
In reply to Disassociative Disorder/Alter Egos, posted by Lorelai on October 1, 2002, at 16:51:25
You sound as if you have a great shrink if she has a strong enough ego to realize her lack of training in this area. Did you explain your feelings of abandonment, or did she offer to still have sessions to help with the transition? My shrink referred me to a therapist who is an expert in disociative dissorders, so I see both- but I must admit that my therapist has been a great deal of help to me. As the other posters stated this is a very creative coping style- and I wonder if you've had difficulties- or do you just want to have an integrated personality. Talking to 'alters' is very common, particularly child alters. I tend to dissociate for hours or days and I'm not aware of what happens during that time- sometimes it causes me a great deal of trouble, so I do need help. I wish you all the best- judy
Posted by Lorelai on October 2, 2002, at 7:59:28
In reply to Re: Disassociative Disorder/Alter Egos » Lorelai, posted by judy1 on October 1, 2002, at 22:48:44
> You sound as if you have a great shrink if she has a strong enough ego to realize her lack of training in this area. Did you explain your feelings of abandonment, or did she offer to still have sessions to help with the transition? My shrink referred me to a therapist who is an expert in disociative dissorders, so I see both- but I must admit that my therapist has been a great deal of help to me. As the other posters stated this is a very creative coping style- and I wonder if you've had difficulties- or do you just want to have an integrated personality. Talking to 'alters' is very common, particularly child alters. I tend to dissociate for hours or days and I'm not aware of what happens during that time- sometimes it causes me a great deal of trouble, so I do need help. I wish you all the best- judy
**judy,
Just a short one as I'm in a rush this morning. I wanted to acknowledge your post and tell you how much I appreciate it! Also, I will answer more fully later today. Thanks again.
~Lorelai**
Posted by Lorelai on October 2, 2002, at 15:10:31
In reply to Re: Disassociative Disorder/Alter Egos » Lorelai, posted by judy1 on October 1, 2002, at 22:48:44
> You sound as if you have a great shrink if she has a strong enough ego to realize her lack of training in this area. Did you explain your feelings of abandonment, or did she offer to still have sessions to help with the transition? My shrink referred me to a therapist who is an expert in disociative dissorders, so I see both- but I must admit that my therapist has been a great deal of help to me. As the other posters stated this is a very creative coping style- and I wonder if you've had difficulties- or do you just want to have an integrated personality. Talking to 'alters' is very common, particularly child alters. I tend to dissociate for hours or days and I'm not aware of what happens during that time- sometimes it causes me a great deal of trouble, so I do need help. I wish you all the best- judy
**Hi again judy,
I've never thought of my alter as causing me trouble, but my fiance points out that the gaps in my memory DO cause trouble (and the more I reflect on this today the more I wonder if there is more going on here than I've realized in the past). The chunks of memory loss (which to me seemed miniscule, but I'm finding via friends that they notice it more than I'd thought--I used to love to blame meds or the fact I'd done a lot of drugs back in the day) cause trouble not only in my relationship with him, but in my relationship with my family and friends. Because I can hang out with someone on a particularly troublesome day and he/she will recall a series of events from A-D whereas I will sometimes only recall A and C, if that makes any sense. I've had disagreements and emotional outbursts because of others' insistence that something happened a certain way when I'm sure it didn't. That sort of thing. So I guess, when looked at that way, I do need some sort of help.
My pdoc has offered to continue seeing me, yes, and I do understand her reasoning behind recommending me to someone with a great deal of experience in this area. Still, it felt like I'd gotten the wind knocked out of me and I'm having a hard time coming to terms with it.
Are you on any sort of meds and do they help? I'm beginning to wonder now if my bipolar diagnosis is going to turn out to be all wrong!
This is all very confusing, but a relief to know there are others out there who understand! Thanks for the post!
Best,
Lorelai
Posted by judy1 on October 2, 2002, at 18:27:43
In reply to Re: Disassociative Disorder/Alter Egos » judy1, posted by Lorelai on October 2, 2002, at 15:10:31
Hi Lorelei,
Actually I also have a bipolar disorder- but my dissociative disorder is comorbid. I take meds for bipolar and panic attacks, but for DD-NOS, I exclusively do psychotherapy because the underpinnings are childhood abuse (as I thought yours were). So, it's important for your moods to be stable because therapy can be really tough and may cause an episode. Unfortunately like I said before, you get worse before you get better. But it sounds like your loss of time is causing problems (do you self-injure?, just curious) and to go to an experienced doc is definitely the way to go. I also share your feelings of abandonment, my last shrink crossed boundaries with me then announced he would no longer see me. That caused a suicide attempt on my part, so not to diminish your pain- but make sure your old shrink understands your difficulties, and I'm sure he'll see you as long as you need. You may find the new one is even better :-). Take care, judy
Posted by Lorelai on October 3, 2002, at 13:46:34
In reply to Re: Disassociative Disorder/Alter Egos » Lorelai, posted by judy1 on October 2, 2002, at 18:27:43
> Hi Lorelei,
> Actually I also have a bipolar disorder- but my dissociative disorder is comorbid. I take meds for bipolar and panic attacks, but for DD-NOS, I exclusively do psychotherapy because the underpinnings are childhood abuse (as I thought yours were). So, it's important for your moods to be stable because therapy can be really tough and may cause an episode. Unfortunately like I said before, you get worse before you get better. But it sounds like your loss of time is causing problems (do you self-injure?, just curious) and to go to an experienced doc is definitely the way to go. I also share your feelings of abandonment, my last shrink crossed boundaries with me then announced he would no longer see me. That caused a suicide attempt on my part, so not to diminish your pain- but make sure your old shrink understands your difficulties, and I'm sure he'll see you as long as you need. You may find the new one is even better :-). Take care, judyHi judy,
I don't really know what's caused my problems, though I do know there was no direct physical abuse from my parents (there was, however, extreme racism directed at me from my grandparents on my father's side--my mother is Asian and my grandparents disapproved of the interracial marriage. Also, my father is I guess what you would call a high functioning alcoholic). Though I've been in therapy since age 15, I've made a lifelong career of avoiding digging too deeply, have gone from therapist to therapist and have never spent too much time trying to figure out what's beneath it all. When things start to get too close, I end my sessions and move on. I'm starting to get uncomfortable with this process again and have spent all morning at work fighting with myself because I'd like to quit therapy! I worry because I think my fiance would probably give up on me if I stopped now. I've put him through hell and he's so relieved I'm finally pushing myself to really try with therapy. I just feel so--invaded, I guess you could say--and was just getting to trust Dr. S when suddenly I was told about the other pdoc coming in. I keep thinking that other people are trying to make this whole thing a LOT more complicated than it actually is, because Alice and I manage pretty well for the most part, thank you (; Sorry, just trying to lighten things up a little. I'm starting to get a little too stressed (: Btw, I used to have a huge hole in the bottom of my left foot where I would dig and dig with a needle. For a time I would put little razor slashes on myself, but that wasn't as satisfying as digging with the needle. I haven't self-injured in a long time, but I still have urges and when I'm upset I dig my fingernails into my hand deeply. I don't cut or dig anymore, though like I said, I WANT to sometimes. I'm so sorry to hear about your shrink and what happened. When I was 15 my first counselor (a drug counselor who was an ex-priest) flirted with me and said suggestive things that weren't right. At the time I was naive and flattered. Later, when I was 19 and he hadn't been my counselor in years, he tried to seduce me. I never went through with anything, but maybe this is why I never really trusted therapists (hmm, ya think?). It's taken me a long time to get beyond that. Anyway, I guess you could say I'm in denial in a way, judy. I keep thinking to myself that this is all just my way of dealing with the world and why is everyone getting so upset and wanting to fix me??? Then I have to stop and think--this is really screwing with my life. I've been married and divorced three times. I was in the process of ruining yet another relationship (and a good one this time). There's definitely something wrong with someone who can't deal with life on a somewhat even keel. So I'm trying. Not much else I can do. Thanks for listening and I'm sorry to ramble. Guess I just feel strange about all this and have been needing to get some things out. I'll see the new pdoc on Monday and I'm nervous!
Best,
Lorelai
Posted by judy1 on October 3, 2002, at 17:24:28
In reply to Re: Disassociative Disorder/Alter Egos » judy1, posted by Lorelai on October 3, 2002, at 13:46:34
with the new therapist. you seem to grasp what's going on, actually you remind me a great deal of myself with the multiple divorces, etc. i used to want everyone to leave me alone too until my marriage now and new baby. i just want to be a really good mom- and if that means going places i don't want to, i have to accept that. don't worry about rambling- just post how it goes Monday (I'm leaving town for a week) and know i wish you well- judy
Posted by Lorelai on October 4, 2002, at 6:53:15
In reply to just wanted to wish you luck » Lorelai, posted by judy1 on October 3, 2002, at 17:24:28
> with the new therapist. you seem to grasp what's going on, actually you remind me a great deal of myself with the multiple divorces, etc. i used to want everyone to leave me alone too until my marriage now and new baby. i just want to be a really good mom- and if that means going places i don't want to, i have to accept that. don't worry about rambling- just post how it goes Monday (I'm leaving town for a week) and know i wish you well- judy
Thanks, judy! I'll let you know how it goes. Gotta rush. The morning jostle (I have two children--my son, 9, has autism and is in 3rd grade. My daughter is nearly 16 and a sophomore in hs). I understand wanting to pull things together for a good marriage and your child. The one good thing I've got going for me is that therapist after therapist has told me I'm a good mom (and so has my daughter). So there's hope for me (:
Hope you have a good trip!
Best,
Lorelai
Posted by terramiller on October 8, 2002, at 22:43:31
In reply to Disassociative Disorder/Alter Egos, posted by Lorelai on October 1, 2002, at 16:51:25
hi. i keep trying to post and have no idea what to say. sorry. i read a really helpful article, but i can't remember where i read it. i know i gave my therapist a copy of it, so maybe he'll know. the point was the mpd isn't what people always thought it was and that for the majority of people, it doesn't present like personality A and personality B set in stone kind of thing..... well, anyway, when i can pull my thoughts together i'll try this again.
other random thoughts: you are you and alice is you, but it's normal for alice to feel like alice. that's when it just takes time, especially when alice has alice's own opinions. also, if alice helps out then alice is cool and will continue to be alice until she's not needed anymore/you are able to do what she does and then you and alice will just be you... but an incredibly wellrounded you. and... it's normal not to want to tell anybody, or to feel like you're crazy, or that you want to hide, or that you are the only one. that's totally normal. it's amazing how the support comes out once you talk, which is very cool.
take care, terra
Posted by terramiller on October 8, 2002, at 22:52:26
In reply to Re: just wanted to wish you luck » judy1, posted by Lorelai on October 4, 2002, at 6:53:15
hope i'm not butting in here.... but i wanted to suggest that you ask alice what she wants to do... which i bet you already have. but in case you haven't.... i bet you alice knows who you can trust and who you can't. and i bet you that if alice doesn't trust the therapist, there's no way that you are going to go deep. if they can't win over alice, forget it. just a thought. because it sounds like alice is pretty good at her job of taking care of you and she's going to keep doing that job until she feels like someone more trustworthy can step in and help. it's a beautiful thing when someone inside who helps us decides the therapist knows what he's doing and can be trusted.... then that one who has been so helpful finally gets the rest they need. could be alice wants to rest, too. could be alice has some things she wants to talk about but she's waiting until she can find the right therapist to tell.
take care.
terra
Posted by Lorelai on October 8, 2002, at 22:59:22
In reply to Re: Disassociative Disorder/Alter Egos » Lorelai, posted by terramiller on October 8, 2002, at 22:43:31
> hi. i keep trying to post and have no idea what to say. sorry. i read a really helpful article, but i can't remember where i read it. i know i gave my therapist a copy of it, so maybe he'll know. the point was the mpd isn't what people always thought it was and that for the majority of people, it doesn't present like personality A and personality B set in stone kind of thing..... well, anyway, when i can pull my thoughts together i'll try this again.
>
> other random thoughts: you are you and alice is you, but it's normal for alice to feel like alice. that's when it just takes time, especially when alice has alice's own opinions. also, if alice helps out then alice is cool and will continue to be alice until she's not needed anymore/you are able to do what she does and then you and alice will just be you... but an incredibly wellrounded you. and... it's normal not to want to tell anybody, or to feel like you're crazy, or that you want to hide, or that you are the only one. that's totally normal. it's amazing how the support comes out once you talk, which is very cool.
>
> take care, terraThanks, terra. I appreciate that you took the time to post. I just happened to be up late and caught this post right away! I saw my new therapist on Monday and she was very reassuring. I told her I was feeling booted by my old pdoc, even though the old one had told me she was still wanting to see me to check on my progress. Once I got that resentment out of the way and into the open, things started to feel a lot better. I'm just having such a weird time lately, wondering how much to actually tell people (like my best friend, who is extremely understanding. I worry I'll drive her away, though deep down I know nothing could make that happen. Still, abandonment is a very real concern of mine, I guess). My parents are in their 70's and I have hinted about things to them recently, but have never gone into much detail. They realize I'm in therapy, know I have some pretty bad problems, but I don't feel comfortable letting them in on things that have gone on with me since I was a child. I know this is going to sound strange maybe, but I've always felt that there are just some problems I couldn't share with anyone. Not my best friend, not any of my husbands (ex, I mean). No one. The only reason all this has come to light is because I nearly ruined yet another longterm relationship and this time I just suddenly realized I didn't want to go through another heartbreak. I finally trusted someone enough to tell him and things have progressed from there. There are times when I feel resentful of the whole therapy process, the meds, all of it, but then I stop and think that I need to do this for myself, for my kids and for the man in my life. Wow, said another mouthful. Whew! Thanks to all who posted and thanks again, Terra, for your kind words.
Best,
Lorelai
Posted by Lorelai on October 8, 2002, at 23:14:46
In reply to Re: just wanted to wish you luck » Lorelai, posted by terramiller on October 8, 2002, at 22:52:26
> hope i'm not butting in here.... but i wanted to suggest that you ask alice what she wants to do... which i bet you already have. but in case you haven't.... i bet you alice knows who you can trust and who you can't. and i bet you that if alice doesn't trust the therapist, there's no way that you are going to go deep. if they can't win over alice, forget it. just a thought. because it sounds like alice is pretty good at her job of taking care of you and she's going to keep doing that job until she feels like someone more trustworthy can step in and help. it's a beautiful thing when someone inside who helps us decides the therapist knows what he's doing and can be trusted.... then that one who has been so helpful finally gets the rest they need. could be alice wants to rest, too. could be alice has some things she wants to talk about but she's waiting until she can find the right therapist to tell.
>
> take care.
> terra
No, you're not butting in (: I appreciate the comments very much! And I have to agree that it's going to take finding someone very trustworthy/comfortable. alice and I had an argument over finally telling Doc S and then being "dumped" for this other shrink. But it was ME who was pissed at alice. I told her she'd really done it now. So now I'm looking at that and I realize it's alice that wants to be discovered. I've always been the one to want her hidden from the world. Even so, at this point, alice is a little leery. What's she want to do? I guess the best word is she's ambivalent. She has days where she wants the pdocs to leave well enough alone, but then something else has been going on (memory glitches that interfere with my life in a more damaging way), so she seems more open to this process. Still, there are certain things she/I refuse to talk about. I know this is maybe detrimental to therapy, but I don't WANT to remember certain things, yet I do remember them, at least I sort of remember things in a haze (weird stuff from childhood), yet I will NOT talk to anyone about them. I can't bring myself to. So then I feel guilty about that, like I'm hiding something that could be very key to this whole thing. But alice says no friggin' way, and I never say anything. Well, I'm blabbing. Sorry!
~L
Posted by terramiller on October 9, 2002, at 22:30:08
In reply to Re: just wanted to wish you luck » terramiller, posted by Lorelai on October 8, 2002, at 23:14:46
Hi. I do understand that conflict of do you tell or not... and sometimes it's too scary or makes you too sick to even think about talking about it. Somehow, if it is necessary you will talk about it. I have a running joke now with my therapist. If I remember something difficult, I call ahead and tell him to make sure the wastebasket is empty so I can puke in it if I throw up in session. I never have, but I feel like I will all the way up to the session and having that bucket next to me makes it easy for me to talk. That's just what I do. You'll find a way when you are ready. My therapist has another helpful saying: He says that what needs to come up will, and what doesn't need to come up he doesn't think he needs to go fishing for. He trusts my head because I've lived this long and done a pretty good job at that considering. Same with you. It sounds like you had a really good meeting with your therapist. I'm happy that you got some of that out. I understand the abandonment issues. Take care, Terra
Posted by Lorelai on October 10, 2002, at 14:26:13
In reply to Re: just wanted to wish you luck » Lorelai, posted by terramiller on October 9, 2002, at 22:30:08
> Hi. I do understand that conflict of do you tell or not... and sometimes it's too scary or makes you too sick to even think about talking about it. Somehow, if it is necessary you will talk about it. I have a running joke now with my therapist. If I remember something difficult, I call ahead and tell him to make sure the wastebasket is empty so I can puke in it if I throw up in session. I never have, but I feel like I will all the way up to the session and having that bucket next to me makes it easy for me to talk. That's just what I do. You'll find a way when you are ready. My therapist has another helpful saying: He says that what needs to come up will, and what doesn't need to come up he doesn't think he needs to go fishing for. He trusts my head because I've lived this long and done a pretty good job at that considering. Same with you. It sounds like you had a really good meeting with your therapist. I'm happy that you got some of that out. I understand the abandonment issues. Take care, Terra
***Thanks for the support, Terra. Helps more than you know (well, then again, you probably do know)! My new therapist wants me to read up on this dissociative stuff (I see I spelled it wrong at the top of this thread--I pretty much know less than nothing about it, which accounts for my freaked out posts here. Have been so absorbed in studying bipolar disorder, autism--my 3rd grade son is autistic--and looking up every new med the pdoc puts me on). Anyway, the doc says it may put my mind at ease to know more about it and that it's not that I'm crazy--which is pretty much what some of you in this discussion have been telling me. That I'm NOT totally around the bend. For years I knew I had some major problems, but kept my mouth shut because I had scary visions of being locked up. When I had my children, suddenly it became even more crucial to me that I stay as sane as possible. So admitting I even have problems has been difficult. I like the idea about the waste basket to throw up in. I don't usually feel like getting sick when I think of things that may or may not come up. Mainly I feel agitated (REALLY agitated, like hyper-stressed). I like what your therapist says:
what needs to come up will, and what doesn't need to come up he doesn't think he needs to go fishing for. Sounds like sound wisdom to me (:
Thanks so much for your reply!
~Lorelai
Posted by terramiller on October 10, 2002, at 22:16:30
In reply to Re: just wanted to wish you luck » terramiller, posted by Lorelai on October 10, 2002, at 14:26:13
Most of what I felt at first was agitation, too. I would just bounce off the walls. It was really terrible. That was before the world of meds, so I really thought I was not going to make it.
I also know what it feels like to feel responsible for your own kids. That can really be a stabilizing factor in your own healing process. You aren't likely to totally lose it because of being committed to your kids. The good/bad thing about kids, is sometimes they are the ones that can cause stuff to come up... like when they get to a certain age that you were when you were a kid.
Everybody freaks out at first. You think you are the only one and that nobody else has a story anywhere close to yours. Somebody likely told you that a long time ago, or you became convinced of it because you kept your mouth shut and didn't tell anybody to keep safe.
In your reading, may I gently advise you to start with the academic and be careful which "real life biographical" stories you read. You do not want to uncork more than you are ready for. I like a book by Christine Courtouis.... title is something like Incest /treatment of or something or other. I liked it so much that I bought my own copy. The reason why I liked it is because it's totally academic and nonemotional. You can learn a lot about Post Traumatic Stress as well as Dissociating on a general level. You can probably locate it in a library, which is where I ran across it first. I found it informative without being threatening.
On the internet, Sidran (I think) has some really general information about dissociation that is very helpful for those trying to acquaint themselves with the term and issues.
It's normal... at least it's normal for me :-).... to experience a caged feeling accompanied by panic and agitation. It's important to have calming and self soothing techniques in place and to practice them. (Believe it or not, my current calming choice is to watch Bear In The Big Blue House.... kid stuff calms me down a lot.) Find what works for you and give yourself permission to comfort yourself. Benzos are extremely helpful, but caring for yourself works longer and for the longer term.
Just some thoughts. It helps me to talk to other people; helps me in my own process. I unfortunately have been where you seem to be.
Take care,
Terra
Posted by Sean01 on December 29, 2002, at 21:28:47
In reply to Re: just wanted to wish you luck » Lorelai, posted by terramiller on October 10, 2002, at 22:16:30
Hi. I came across this thread and learned a lot. I am not a therapist, nor a psychologist, but I have a strong suspicion that my girlfriend suffers from dissociative disorder. I have researched a great deal - mostly on-line - to educate myself so to better understand what she is going through. I love her very much, and she loves me...but there is a "part" of her that runs away (fast) whenever she allows herself to trust, feel happy, and love openly. She struggles to stay in the present, has profound memory lapses, adores and wants to spend every second with me one minute, then will be distantly detached, cold, and even heartless the next. I have seen her in various stages of dissociation - sometimes it is so acute it is scary. But I don't judge her because I know there is something else going on.
she speaks of her "secret garden" (do you know bruce springsteen's song?) where no one is let in. But she HAS trusted me on several occassions to enter that garden where she reveals to me incredible stories from her past. I fear she has suffered gross abandonment and emotional abuse - from EVERYONE close to her. I also fear she may have been sexually abused. I want to help desperately. I think she is only partially aware of her dissociation. She is seeing a therapist. I have asked her to let me go with her. I feel I can help. not surprisingly she says no way. I wish I could speak to her therapist. Should I approach her therapist on my own, or is this a betrayal? Inappropriate? My GF is a great actress (as I think is common for this disorder) and does a good job of fooling most everyone. Maybe she fools her therpaist as well? I am very concerned for her...is there anything I can do? I don't want to abandon her like everyone else has. your advice would be greatly appreciated! sorry to try and explain something so complicated in a short note, but I suspect you can fill in the blanks.
thanks. sean.
Posted by lorelai on December 31, 2002, at 12:33:24
In reply to Re: just wanted to wish you luck, posted by Sean01 on December 29, 2002, at 21:28:47
> Hi. I came across this thread and learned a lot. I am not a therapist, nor a psychologist, but I have a strong suspicion that my girlfriend suffers from dissociative disorder. I have researched a great deal - mostly on-line - to educate myself so to better understand what she is going through. I love her very much, and she loves me...but there is a "part" of her that runs away (fast) whenever she allows herself to trust, feel happy, and love openly. She struggles to stay in the present, has profound memory lapses, adores and wants to spend every second with me one minute, then will be distantly detached, cold, and even heartless the next. I have seen her in various stages of dissociation - sometimes it is so acute it is scary. But I don't judge her because I know there is something else going on.
>
> she speaks of her "secret garden" (do you know bruce springsteen's song?) where no one is let in. But she HAS trusted me on several occassions to enter that garden where she reveals to me incredible stories from her past. I fear she has suffered gross abandonment and emotional abuse - from EVERYONE close to her. I also fear she may have been sexually abused. I want to help desperately. I think she is only partially aware of her dissociation. She is seeing a therapist. I have asked her to let me go with her. I feel I can help. not surprisingly she says no way. I wish I could speak to her therapist. Should I approach her therapist on my own, or is this a betrayal? Inappropriate? My GF is a great actress (as I think is common for this disorder) and does a good job of fooling most everyone. Maybe she fools her therpaist as well? I am very concerned for her...is there anything I can do? I don't want to abandon her like everyone else has. your advice would be greatly appreciated! sorry to try and explain something so complicated in a short note, but I suspect you can fill in the blanks.
>
> thanks. sean.
Sean,Like you, my boyfriend wants to help and has offered to speak to my therapist. I've okayed this in the past, but have since decided I'd rather not go that route. Not yet. It's tough to trust someone that deeply and I'm sure your girlfriend does trust you to a certain extent. It's funny you mention that Springsteen song because I've been listening to it lately and feel the same way. Anyway, as far as going behind your girlfriend's back to talk to her therapist--? Don't even think about it. For one, if the therapist has any ethics at all he/she will refuse to discuss the client behind her back. Also, the trust you've gained with your girlfriend thus far will be lost. I don't have answers for you. I wish I did. I just know that establishing trust with your girlfriend will take a long time and that maybe, one day, she'll trust you on a deep enough level to allow you into some therapy sessions with her. I've been with my boyfriend for nearly 3 years and still don't feel that I can let him in completely, though I love him very much. The main thing is, let her know you're there for her. It's a positive thing that you've chosen to study up on dissociative disorder (rather than running away) and if you're willing to live with this, then more power to ya. I know my friends and family have a tough time putting up with my problems, but I've managed to find a very small circle of people (my therapist, my shrink, my boyfriend and my best friend) who know I'm a good person at heart who just happens to disappear sometimes, grow very cold and distant and sometimes seem to not even be Lorelai anymore. I've been doing a lot of serious work with a therapist who specializes in these things. It's a scary thing when you've done things/said things you have zero memory of. When you've estranged family members and friends with your behavior and you have no recollection of said behavior. Sorry to've babbled on and on. All the best of luck to you and your girlfriend, Sean. I'm glad to hear she's in therapy and has a supportive boyfriend by her side. Believe me, if she doesn't already, she'll probably grow to appreciate having someone like you in her life. I just hope you'll steer clear of trying to get into her therapy sessions until there comes a time when she wants you there. Btw, a really good shrink can see right through the lies (the Great Actress comment), but it took me a long time before I admitted to any of my shrinks that I was lying. I've been in therapy off and on since age 15 and lied to every single one of them (as well as to myself) till this past year. And I'm 44 years old now. When I told my shrink I'd been acting all these years and had never allowed myself to be straight with anyone she just gave me a look that said, "So what's new?" Interesting that I thought I was fooling everyone, though believe me, I'm also quite the performer. Just got tired of performing and I hope eventually your girlfriend will too. Though--as in my case, the dissociative behavior (alter-ego) has proven helpful at times and given me an alternative way of dealing with things I couldn't handle, it's finally starting to sink in that it's time to move on. To at least get things to a point where Lorelai's in charge and not some "other"(my therapist says it's a creative avoidance technique). I don't know how much this helps, but hope it does some. You're not alone. There are a lot of people dealing with this type of thing. A suggestion? Maybe consider getting your own therapist--someone to help you deal with and better understand what you're going through. Wow, did I go through a lot to answer this post, btw. My password ceased to work (memory lapse on my part, probably) and I've tried countless times to re-register over these past couple of months. Finally got it to work today!
All the Best,
Lorelai
Posted by lorelai on December 31, 2002, at 12:50:47
In reply to Re: just wanted to wish you luck » Lorelai, posted by terramiller on October 10, 2002, at 22:16:30
> Most of what I felt at first was agitation, too. I would just bounce off the walls. It was really terrible. That was before the world of meds, so I really thought I was not going to make it.
>
> I also know what it feels like to feel responsible for your own kids. That can really be a stabilizing factor in your own healing process. You aren't likely to totally lose it because of being committed to your kids. The good/bad thing about kids, is sometimes they are the ones that can cause stuff to come up... like when they get to a certain age that you were when you were a kid.
>
> Everybody freaks out at first. You think you are the only one and that nobody else has a story anywhere close to yours. Somebody likely told you that a long time ago, or you became convinced of it because you kept your mouth shut and didn't tell anybody to keep safe.
>
> In your reading, may I gently advise you to start with the academic and be careful which "real life biographical" stories you read. You do not want to uncork more than you are ready for. I like a book by Christine Courtouis.... title is something like Incest /treatment of or something or other. I liked it so much that I bought my own copy. The reason why I liked it is because it's totally academic and nonemotional. You can learn a lot about Post Traumatic Stress as well as Dissociating on a general level. You can probably locate it in a library, which is where I ran across it first. I found it informative without being threatening.
>
> On the internet, Sidran (I think) has some really general information about dissociation that is very helpful for those trying to acquaint themselves with the term and issues.
>
> It's normal... at least it's normal for me :-).... to experience a caged feeling accompanied by panic and agitation. It's important to have calming and self soothing techniques in place and to practice them. (Believe it or not, my current calming choice is to watch Bear In The Big Blue House.... kid stuff calms me down a lot.) Find what works for you and give yourself permission to comfort yourself. Benzos are extremely helpful, but caring for yourself works longer and for the longer term.
>
> Just some thoughts. It helps me to talk to other people; helps me in my own process. I unfortunately have been where you seem to be.
>
> Take care,
> TerraTerra,
Just a quick note to apologize for my silence. I'm glad Sean posted to this thread and opened things up again. I tried and tried to post a reply to you back in October and again in November. And when I tried to re-register nothing happened. To tell you the truth, I worried I'd said something wrong in my posts and had been booted. So I gave up. Today's the first time I've been able to post in ages. So I just wanted to say thanks for your support during the tough times. Also that things are going well with my new therapist, I'm still seeing my old pdoc and I'm feeling much stronger and less chaotic these days. My family's noticed a positive change! And Alice--? She's still around. Just not quite as pronounced lately.
All the Best,
Lorelai
Posted by Sean01 on January 1, 2003, at 17:45:25
In reply to Re: just wanted to wish you luck » Sean01, posted by lorelai on December 31, 2002, at 12:33:24
> Like you, my boyfriend wants to help and has offered to speak to my therapist. I've okayed this in the past, but have since decided I'd rather not go that route. Not yet. It's tough to trust someone that deeply and I'm sure your girlfriend does trust you to a certain extent. It's funny you mention that Springsteen song because I've been listening to it lately and feel the same way. Anyway, as far as going behind your girlfriend's back to talk to her therapist--? Don't even think about it. For one, if the therapist has any ethics at all he/she will refuse to discuss the client behind her back. Also, the trust you've gained with your girlfriend thus far will be lost. I don't have answers for you. I wish I did. I just know that establishing trust with your girlfriend will take a long time and that maybe, one day, she'll trust you on a deep enough level to allow you into some therapy sessions with her. I've been with my boyfriend for nearly 3 years and still don't feel that I can let him in completely, though I love him very much. The main thing is, let her know you're there for her. It's a positive thing that you've chosen to study up on dissociative disorder (rather than running away) and if you're willing to live with this, then more power to ya. I know my friends and family have a tough time putting up with my problems, but I've managed to find a very small circle of people (my therapist, my shrink, my boyfriend and my best friend) who know I'm a good person at heart who just happens to disappear sometimes, grow very cold and distant and sometimes seem to not even be Lorelai anymore. I've been doing a lot of serious work with a therapist who specializes in these things. It's a scary thing when you've done things/said things you have zero memory of. When you've estranged family members and friends with your behavior and you have no recollection of said behavior. Sorry to've babbled on and on. All the best of luck to you and your girlfriend, Sean. I'm glad to hear she's in therapy and has a supportive boyfriend by her side. Believe me, if she doesn't already, she'll probably grow to appreciate having someone like you in her life. I just hope you'll steer clear of trying to get into her therapy sessions until there comes a time when she wants you there. Btw, a really good shrink can see right through the lies (the Great Actress comment), but it took me a long time before I admitted to any of my shrinks that I was lying. I've been in therapy off and on since age 15 and lied to every single one of them (as well as to myself) till this past year. And I'm 44 years old now. When I told my shrink I'd been acting all these years and had never allowed myself to be straight with anyone she just gave me a look that said, "So what's new?" Interesting that I thought I was fooling everyone, though believe me, I'm also quite the performer. Just got tired of performing and I hope eventually your girlfriend will too. Though--as in my case, the dissociative behavior (alter-ego) has proven helpful at times and given me an alternative way of dealing with things I couldn't handle, it's finally starting to sink in that it's time to move on. To at least get things to a point where Lorelai's in charge and not some "other"(my therapist says it's a creative avoidance technique). I don't know how much this helps, but hope it does some. You're not alone. There are a lot of people dealing with this type of thing. A suggestion? Maybe consider getting your own therapist--someone to help you deal with and better understand what you're going through. Wow, did I go through a lot to answer this post, btw. My password ceased to work (memory lapse on my part, probably) and I've tried countless times to re-register over these past couple of months. Finally got it to work today!
> All the Best,
> Lorelai
>
Lorelai...thanks so much for responding in such a thoughtful way. your words were very helpful. I agree that it would be a mistake to contact her therapist on my own. it is just frustrating when I read how often this condition is misdiagnosed (as something other than dissociative disorder) subjecting sufferers to a potentially protracted and off the mark treatment program that is missing the REAL problem. knowing that the true condition has a high succcess rate when properly diagnosed and treated exacerbates that frustration. I just pray that her therpaist IS one of the better ones who recognizes the REAL problem.
yes, it is extremely difficult to care so deeply and be in a relationship with someone who is afflicted with this disorder. because I understand the truth of what is happening, I don't judge her or "blame" her. I love her unconditionally. the core person is so incredibly charming, adorable, sexy, and loving - we are great friends and love each other's company. sadly, however, she is unable to stay "present" in that reality.
given the nature of this disorder - which fractures a person's personality into unintegrated, thoroughly distinct parts - predictably our relationship cycles through many different phases as she cycles from being present to "running away." one moment we will be inseparable and hopelessly adoring of each other - talk of marriage, of having children and spending a life together - and then, seemingly on cue, she will suddenly disappear, figuratively and literally. in fact it follows a very consistent pattern...as soon as our relationship reaches some milestone of particular closeness, trust, and intimacy, within 3 days she withdraws abruptly, and the girl I love and adore utterly vanishes. her voice changes, conversation changes, or stops calling and emailing, and becomes hard and even slightly mean-spirited. she'll forget the feelings, conversations, and actions of just a couple days prior...as if they never happened. when I invoke a reference to them she'll usually try to cover her tracks by pretending she remembers, but dismisses or rationalizes the suggestion that anything has changed. it's like she "remembers" more like in a dream. I can feel her struggling to keep her realities all together. literally we have been engaged and euphoric one day, and 3 days later she won't contact me or answer messsages. sometimes she has left a note in my car saying something like "I can't be in a relationship right now" or some other similar excuse. then a week or so later we're back together and the cycle starts afresh. this has happned about a dozen times in 16 months.
when her anxiety is most acute - which fortunately has been very rare - it is truly scary. her mind seems to freeze up entirely. her eyes can't focus on anything. her body movements are erratic. her words are stilted, barely lucid, and can't maintain context. even in less acute states, she struggles with maintaining simple context in a dialogue. when we chat online she seems to lose her place...I can "feel" her change...her typed words change style and tone.
at other times she has blurted out a stream of words that say somehting very bizarre and out of the blue. and then the next instant has no memory of having said them at all. taken by themselves they seem non-sensical, but in fact they usually contain reference to something that is part of the demoms that are tormenting her.
sorry, now it's me babbling. but I appreciate your sincerity and your unique perspective. I share a little more of her story so that you might understand the specifics a little more. there's a lot more to tell - for example about what is likely the cause of this disorder - but perhaps, if you're interested, I can talk about that another time.
please forgive the presumption for asking, but I have a question before I leave you for now - how aware are YOU of your "alters" and of your transiton into those alters? do you know the changes only because others tell you? or do you have an awareness yourself? is it a sharp awareness...or more like a dream? of course you have no obligation to answer, but if you are willing, I would be very curious to know.
again, thanks for listening and caring. it has already helped a great deal.
Sean
Posted by lorelai on January 1, 2003, at 20:57:26
In reply to Re: just wanted to wish you luck, posted by Sean01 on January 1, 2003, at 17:45:25
> Lorelai...
>
> thanks so much for responding in such a thoughtful way. your words were very helpful. I agree that it would be a mistake to contact her therapist on my own. it is just frustrating when I read how often this condition is misdiagnosed (as something other than dissociative disorder) subjecting sufferers to a potentially protracted and off the mark treatment program that is missing the REAL problem. knowing that the true condition has a high succcess rate when properly diagnosed and treated exacerbates that frustration. I just pray that her therpaist IS one of the better ones who recognizes the REAL problem.
>
> yes, it is extremely difficult to care so deeply and be in a relationship with someone who is afflicted with this disorder. because I understand the truth of what is happening, I don't judge her or "blame" her. I love her unconditionally. the core person is so incredibly charming, adorable, sexy, and loving - we are great friends and love each other's company. sadly, however, she is unable to stay "present" in that reality.
>
> given the nature of this disorder - which fractures a person's personality into unintegrated, thoroughly distinct parts - predictably our relationship cycles through many different phases as she cycles from being present to "running away." one moment we will be inseparable and hopelessly adoring of each other - talk of marriage, of having children and spending a life together - and then, seemingly on cue, she will suddenly disappear, figuratively and literally. in fact it follows a very consistent pattern...as soon as our relationship reaches some milestone of particular closeness, trust, and intimacy, within 3 days she withdraws abruptly, and the girl I love and adore utterly vanishes. her voice changes, conversation changes, or stops calling and emailing, and becomes hard and even slightly mean-spirited. she'll forget the feelings, conversations, and actions of just a couple days prior...as if they never happened. when I invoke a reference to them she'll usually try to cover her tracks by pretending she remembers, but dismisses or rationalizes the suggestion that anything has changed. it's like she "remembers" more like in a dream. I can feel her struggling to keep her realities all together. literally we have been engaged and euphoric one day, and 3 days later she won't contact me or answer messsages. sometimes she has left a note in my car saying something like "I can't be in a relationship right now" or some other similar excuse. then a week or so later we're back together and the cycle starts afresh. this has happned about a dozen times in 16 months.
>
> when her anxiety is most acute - which fortunately has been very rare - it is truly scary. her mind seems to freeze up entirely. her eyes can't focus on anything. her body movements are erratic. her words are stilted, barely lucid, and can't maintain context. even in less acute states, she struggles with maintaining simple context in a dialogue. when we chat online she seems to lose her place...I can "feel" her change...her typed words change style and tone.
>
> at other times she has blurted out a stream of words that say somehting very bizarre and out of the blue. and then the next instant has no memory of having said them at all. taken by themselves they seem non-sensical, but in fact they usually contain reference to something that is part of the demoms that are tormenting her.
>
> sorry, now it's me babbling. but I appreciate your sincerity and your unique perspective. I share a little more of her story so that you might understand the specifics a little more. there's a lot more to tell - for example about what is likely the cause of this disorder - but perhaps, if you're interested, I can talk about that another time.
>
> please forgive the presumption for asking, but I have a question before I leave you for now - how aware are YOU of your "alters" and of your transiton into those alters? do you know the changes only because others tell you? or do you have an awareness yourself? is it a sharp awareness...or more like a dream? of course you have no obligation to answer, but if you are willing, I would be very curious to know.
>
> again, thanks for listening and caring. it has already helped a great deal.
>
> Sean
>
Hey Sean,It's a little unnerving, reading what you say about your relationship's cycles. Mine, though somehow managing to last three years, goes through the same type of cycles. I'm not sure how many times we've broken up, but I think a good guess would be at least half a dozen times per year. It's gotten to the point where neither of us likes to tell our friends whether we're together (this week) or not. We're working on this though and I hope all turns out well. I know how tough it must be for him (for you too, in your relationship).
I'd like to hear more about your girlfriend, yes, if you'd like to share.
In answer to your question, I have an awareness of one alter--I call her "my Alice"--who has been with me (on a level I've been consciously aware of anyway) since I was 17. Alice rescues me from scary situations because she's streetwise and tough and knows how to do things--such as public speaking--that scare the hell out of me. When something is going wrong I "feel" myself slide into this alter. She talks to me, calms me down and tells me to give it a break. I didn't consider her an alter for years and saw no reason to ever bring her up in therapy, but I finally told my boyfriend about her, half-jokingly, and he insisted I tell my pdoc about her. When I did, she insisted I see another therapist who specializes in this disorder. Besides Alice, I know of no others, but have recently recounted a few spooky things to my therapist (For example: "someone" put an order for a movie into an online account for me, saving it for me to purchase later. Only problem is, no one else but me has access to my account. I have no recollection of doing this at ALL, but it couldn't have been anyone else. And it was a movie of a book I'm currently reading. So go figure. Things of this nature happen to me once in a while and it's disturbing).
As far as my awareness of Alice being sharp or dreamlike--I lose some of what's going on, depending on whether it's a horrible thing or just something I don't feel like dealing with. In the case of horrible things (like my drunken ex in my face, screaming obscenities at me) I've gone completely blank and don't recall anything after a certain point. In the case of things like public speaking, I know what's going on but it's all sort of surreal.
I was thinking about your girlfriend today and wondering how aware she is of what's going on with her--? Maybe you could recommend some reading material to her (check out suggestions from others in the above posts). She might recognize herself and be more open to at least bringing up Dissociative Disorder to her therapist.
Btw, my boyfriend describes my "going away" look as "shark eyes." He says I get this dead look and I'm just not there. It all sounds so familiar, what you say about your girlfriend. It's kind of strange to get other's perspectives. My best friend has it down to a science and, like you, can tell via e-mail when things aren't right with me. I also have bipolar disorder (or so they say).
Anyway, I go out of town often, so if you don't hear from me for a couple of days I'll get back to you as soon as I can.
Best,
Lorelai
P.S. What does your girlfriend do? I'm curious to know if she's a creative person. Just wondering. I'm a writer (fiction, book reviews, used to write poetry).
Posted by Dinah on January 2, 2003, at 12:31:44
In reply to More on Dissociative Disorder » Sean01, posted by lorelai on January 1, 2003, at 20:57:26
Lorelai, how has the expert worked out? Does she seem better able to help you than your original therapist? Is there any specific therapy for dissociative disorders?
My understanding is that Dissociative Identity Disorder isn't diagnosed if there is co-consciousness. Is that accurate? You've always seemed to be co-conscious with Alice.
Sorry to ask so many questions. :(
Thanks,
Dinah
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