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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by rod on April 28, 2003, at 5:47:20
So what now? I was thinking it enhanches and raises dopamine, increases 5-HT etc. and is a "miracle drug" for some endogenous depressed.
But have a look at:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8748929&dopt=Abstract
"Striatal dopamine depletion, tremors, and hypokinesia following the intracranial injection of S-adenosylmethionine: a possible role of hypermethylation in parkinsonism."...Increased methylation can deplete DA, NE, and 5-HT;..
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8503824&dopt=Abstract
"S-adenosyl-L-methionine decreases motor activity in the rat: similarity to Parkinson's disease-like symptoms.".. Its biochemical role, which includes the metabolism of dopamine and the synthesis of acetylcholine, also resembles the changes that occur in Parkinson's disease...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1359575&dopt=Abstract
"Parkinson's disease-like effects of S-adenosyl-L-methionine: effects of L-dopa."..Biochemically, increased methylation can cause the depletion of DA, NE, 5-HT...
Is this really well known, and just I didnt know of this? Isnt Sam-e known to induce mania? but how? Did I miss something? I dont understand this!I dont know any further
bye
Roland
Posted by rod on April 28, 2003, at 7:41:24
In reply to Sam-e; causes 5-HT, NE, DA depletion?, posted by rod on April 28, 2003, at 5:47:20
> So what now? I was thinking it enhanches and raises dopamine, increases 5-HT etc. and is a "miracle drug" for some endogenous depressed.
>
> But have a look at:
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8748929&dopt=Abstract
> "Striatal dopamine depletion, tremors, and hypokinesia following the intracranial injection of S-adenosylmethionine: a possible role of hypermethylation in parkinsonism."
>
> ...Increased methylation can deplete DA, NE, and 5-HT;..
>
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8503824&dopt=Abstract
> "S-adenosyl-L-methionine decreases motor activity in the rat: similarity to Parkinson's disease-like symptoms."
>
> .. Its biochemical role, which includes the metabolism of dopamine and the synthesis of acetylcholine, also resembles the changes that occur in Parkinson's disease...
>
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1359575&dopt=Abstract
> "Parkinson's disease-like effects of S-adenosyl-L-methionine: effects of L-dopa."
>
> ..Biochemically, increased methylation can cause the depletion of DA, NE, 5-HT...
>
>
> Is this really well known, and just I didnt know of this? Isnt Sam-e known to induce mania? but how? Did I miss something? I dont understand this!
>
> I dont know any further
>
> bye
> Roland
>
>
>PS:
Or is it brain region specific and has no impact on depression involved regions? Or does the co-administration of folic acid, B12, B6 produce an other effect?
Posted by Bill L on April 28, 2003, at 8:38:19
In reply to PS: Sam-e; causes 5-HT, NE, DA depletion?, posted by rod on April 28, 2003, at 7:41:24
Rod - First of all, it's true what you said that you should take B12 and B6 and folate with SAM-e in order to preventa build up of homocysteine.
I don't think that the studies you looked at should be any cause for concern. Intracranial injection could introduce a huge dosage to the brain compared to swollowing pills. Also, its possible that the rats were given a large dose.
With humans, good results are reported taking 1200 to 1600 mg of SAM-e orally each day on an empty stomach along with B6 and B12. Sometimes a lower dose can be effective. People should start with 400 mg and then gradually build up as needed. Since SAM-e is very expensive and not covered by insurance, prescription drugs are often much less expensive. If you try SAM-e, use NatureMade.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 28, 2003, at 10:01:15
In reply to Sam-e; causes 5-HT, NE, DA depletion?, posted by rod on April 28, 2003, at 5:47:20
> So what now? I was thinking it enhanches and raises dopamine, increases 5-HT etc. and is a "miracle drug" for some endogenous depressed.
>
> But have a look at:
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8748929&dopt=Abstract
> "Striatal dopamine depletion, tremors, and hypokinesia following the intracranial injection of S-adenosylmethionine: a possible role of hypermethylation in parkinsonism."
>
> ...Increased methylation can deplete DA, NE, and 5-HT;..
>
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8503824&dopt=Abstract
> "S-adenosyl-L-methionine decreases motor activity in the rat: similarity to Parkinson's disease-like symptoms."
>
> .. Its biochemical role, which includes the metabolism of dopamine and the synthesis of acetylcholine, also resembles the changes that occur in Parkinson's disease...
>
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1359575&dopt=Abstract
> "Parkinson's disease-like effects of S-adenosyl-L-methionine: effects of L-dopa."
>
> ..Biochemically, increased methylation can cause the depletion of DA, NE, 5-HT...
>
>
> Is this really well known, and just I didnt know of this? Isnt Sam-e known to induce mania? but how? Did I miss something? I dont understand this!
>
> I dont know any further
>
> bye
> RolandInfusing a substance into the vesicles of the brain is a most unnatural event. Drawing any conclusions from such a gross manipulation is ill advised.
Think empirically. What happens when people use SAMe? Invoking rational explanations which may or may not have any validity does nothing to change whether or not SAMe works as an antidepressant.
One problem I have with SAMe as an intervention is that it bypasses all the biochemical feedback mechanisms that would normally regulate its concentration in specific tissues. I'm much more comfortable with TMG (betaine), because it enhances SAMe by recycling homocysteine to methionine. The enzymatic reaction that forms SAMe from methionine will remain in regulation by product-dependent feedback mechanisms. You won't get too much in the wrong places (like the ventricles).
Lar
Posted by rod on April 28, 2003, at 16:57:39
In reply to Re: PS: Sam-e; causes 5-HT, NE, DA depletion?, posted by Bill L on April 28, 2003, at 8:38:19
First, thank you Bill L and Larry.
Well, my concern wasnt really it could induce parkinson like symptoms. But I thought it is in some way representative for its action in depressed humans at normal dosage. But if you, who really have much knowledge, say I should forget such studies which are in no way representative for nornal use, I will do so.
At present, I take 1200 mg SAMYR (pharmaceutical Same-e) from anti aging system. Thats the only way to obtain it for me.
Along with my 25mg Tianeptine. It really have a good feeling with this and the Sam-e might be worth the money. Time will show.thanks in advance
Roland
Posted by stjames on April 28, 2003, at 22:22:03
In reply to PS: Sam-e; causes 5-HT, NE, DA depletion?, posted by rod on April 28, 2003, at 7:41:24
Anytime one speaks of depletion
for neurotransmitters, I feel they are
on the wrong track. The answers to mental
health are not found in gross (as in macro)
neurochemistry. Or gross anything, for that matter."\n;
print "hello world\n";
Posted by jemma on April 29, 2003, at 11:59:13
In reply to Re: PS: Sam-e; causes 5-HT, NE, DA depletion?, posted by stjames on April 28, 2003, at 22:22:03
I'm confused, here. Okay, I admit that one can't draw conclusions from massive doses injected into brains of rats. What concerns me more is the statement that methylation increases with age, and that SAMe is a "limiting factor" in methylation. I had thought that methylation was a good thing, but apparently it's associated with Parkinson's, dopamine depletion, and all round deterioration of the brain. So if SAMe levels decline with age, perhaps it's the brain's effort to counteract these negative effects? And by boosting SAMe, we're only increasing the toxic levels of methylation? I know it feels good in the short term, but alas so do so many things that are bad for us. As I said, I'm confused.
None of this, however, is likely to stop me supplementing with betaine, folic acid, B-6, and B-12. Which brings me to my next question. Larry, I know you're also based in Ontario. Have you found a good source for betaine-TMG? I'm finding it hard to locate in the health food stores. They only seem to have betaine-HCL.
- jemma
Posted by rod on April 29, 2003, at 17:14:37
In reply to Re: Sam-e; causes 5-HT, NE, DA depletion?, posted by Larry Hoover on April 28, 2003, at 10:01:15
Ok, lets stick to an empirical approach to this.
There is just one thing more I want to tell.Today I recieved my folic acid, and it makes me sick. (0,5 mg) I do not plan to use it any more. I will stick to just B1, B6 and B12. B6 to remove Homocysteine should be enough.
(Well, I have my ill advised theory about this, but it is likely to be nonsense so I keep this in my little brain)bye
Roland
This is the end of the thread.
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