Posted by tensor on January 22, 2013, at 1:00:11
In reply to Re: hyperfocus' response » tensor, posted by hyperfocus on January 21, 2013, at 13:48:39
Ok, the tone you set, or as I preceived it, in your first message offended me a bit, but I see now that was not your intention.
>Illness in life can be avoided to certain extent by lifestyle, good diet, exercise, no smoking etc. The thing I want is to be free from depression and anxiety, if that was to happen, I could and would work hard. I believe health and hard work can get you anywhere.
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>This is not true for most serious illnesses. I think everybody who is fortunate enough not to develop something like depression or cancer or meningitis likes to believe something like this, but it just isn't the case. Serious illness and disability can and does strike anybody at anytime. The people who are fortunate to be healthy and able to work and stuff are just that -- fortunate in some way. You did not choose your genes and how your brain develops nor the circumstances that precipitated your mental illness. Prevention and hard work can't protect you from a lot of things in this life.I think a healthy lifestyle can alter the odds in your favor. As an example, losing weight and exercising can prevent diabetes and cardiovascular problems. And I think, with support of literature in this matter, exercise can be very helpful in depression and anxiety, maybe not much so for biological depression, but for depression that are of more psychological nature caused by stress, loss and other circumtances. But sure, illnesses can happen to everyone, no one is safe, but the feeling alone, that you're actively trying to do something, may have a positive effect.
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> 2. Do you know of anyone, personally or anecdotally, who did not suffer through an extended period of adversity and illness at some point in their life, be it at age 7 or 70?
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> Yes.
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>lol ok, well I personally don't. Seems to me that everybody who has lived a long life undergoes some extended period where they are partially or totally disabled and must endure pain and loneliness and hardship. When you're young it seems like incredibly unfair that you have to endure all this while others progress with their life. But illness, disability, adversity, poverty all of that stuff are part of the human experience. There aren't many humans in history who have managed to avoid things like what you're going through, no matter how much money they had for medication or doctors. You're not any different from the vast majority of mankind, is what I'm getting at.To me, this feels like a way of coping with reality. Nothing wrong with that. Acceptance? I have had time pondering over things like this. I do understand that there are people who suffers more than I do. But that doesn't make it easier for me. I'm not going to accept this and get comfortable feeling this way, for me that would be giving up. I read somewhere that everybody falls but it is how well we rise that defines us.
MTV's Sweet Sixteen or like the Kardashians. If this were your life, as it is for many people, would you trade it for the one you have now and the couch potato future you fear?
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> Are you a lawyer? Talk about extremes. I don't want fame. Being able to work is what I want.
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>Yes but I think being able to work isn't sufficient for living a good life or being truly happy. People who are able to work and have everything turn out well for them a lot of the time end up doing really stupid and bad things and hurting a lot of people and ruining the lives of people who love them.But you do agree that it is a good thing being able to pull your own weight? Ok, it's not enough for everybody but it's good start. What you are saying is that we should not strive for a fruitful life because in the end it does more harm than good? It sounds to me that the optimum scenario would be to not exist at all because that way we certainly can't hurt people or do stupid things. Doesn't this contradict what you were saying above, that this is part of the human experience?
>There are friends who I grew up with and they're not famous but they have careers and are married and successful. And a lot of the things they do and the ways they see things and especially the ways they treat others like their wives and husbands and mothers and fathers and sibling baffle me. I don't have a lot but I think I'd rather be poor and sick than live my life like that. And I'd rather my kids be poor and understand certain things about life than the other way.
Is being successful and understanding things in life mutually exclusive?
>A lot of the time being poor and sick makes you see other people differently. It shows you the things that matter in life -- makes you understand the value of compassion and kindness and unselfishness. In a lot of ways you become a better person.
I agree with this. But to me it feels like you need to get well and socialize to have any real benefits of this understanding. I do see what matter in life, it's just that I can't reach them due to my illness. I don't think I'm asking for much, just a fair shot at life.
> But how about chronic depression and anxiety and other psychiatric disorder that cannot be cured? You just don't come out of that one day, brush your shoulders and say 'phew' that was a tough one, and then live happily ever after. It's with you, every single day, with symptomatic relief now and then.
> If I never had my illness I would not know as much about psychopharmacology as I know now. And that's about it, and I'm not even being sarcastic.
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>I know it's a terrible thing to have a potentially uncurable disease. For 20+ years I have been struggling and have become cynical and bitter and hopeless as anybody. I just came to the realization that in many ways I am a better person because of my illness. That pain and suffering and loneliness are not by far the worst things that can happen to a human being and that it can be overcome. And that what I am going through is part of the human condition and offers a potential path to a better life.We are on the same page here. But.. you know it's like thinking and philosophizing about life, like a shaolin-monk or something. When you get it, how life should be lived, you're are eighty years old. This is an exaggeration but I think you get my idea. What's the point of learning if it can't be practiced? It's like being an art student ;-)
> 5. Could you describe your experience with stimulants and benzos and narcotics as it relates to where your thoughts are centered during the day? Are your thoughts centered on the current day or hour or minute? How is this experience different from when you are in the depths of a depressive episode?
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> I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean.
>>When I'm having a dysphoric episode my thoughts and emotions always swirl around events in my past or my non-existent hopes for the future. The effects of these types of drugs on me has always been primarily to focus my mind more on the things in the present situation.
>I'm concerned about your belief that meds will get your life better and make you able to work. I think that putting the locus of control of your inner experience on medication like this isn't a long-term viable solution. It's more pragmatic than idealistic -- what happens when the meds that work poop out? It's like trading one type of slavery for another.
This medication thing is far from optimal, I think everybody agrees with that. Yes, I have always had too much belief in medications, but that is over now. And yes I tend to focus on the past and the future rather than the present, atleast when I'm ill. But I also think mindfulness, ACT, CBT and whatnot are overrated for biological depression.
> A question to you: Is there a point to all of this.
>>Well the point I'm getting at is that there's a lot of stuff in life we can't control and a little bit of stuff we can; and the little bit is what's important. That maybe what you're going through now isn't just a curse but a method of discovering the important and meaningful things in life and how to work better.
>The things we hold on to in this life will all pass. When we die they're not going to matter to anyone else. But it does matter what you believe, how you treat others, and what you leave behind. People like us tend to have an idealized view of life without depression and anxiety but the truth is a lot of who people never have depression and anxiety work hard get married have kids and all that and end up doing really terrible, stupid, evil things.
>People who have depression and anxiety or any chronic illness are forced to confront realities of human life that not everyone gets the opportunity to face. And it is a terrible and frightening and painful thing but it can also be a good thing. Nobody recovers from any major debilitating illness or disability and isn't a significantly better person for the experience
>No medication can change our past and they certainly can't change our brain significantly by them selves. Recovery from depression may not be the case where you wake up one morning with your dopamine and serotonin and norepinepherine levels normal. It's possible you can just learn to do what you want in life despite the neurochemical signals your defective brain is sending you. And it is possible that you what you want in life will be things that are more important and more meaningful because of this terrible experience.
Thanks for your encouraging words. I have had so many depressive episodes in my life and a sustained remission is not likely. I hope you are right and it's certainly possible. Í have worked so hard with myself during my remission that it really takes a toll on me to suddenly lose the ability to work and exercise, more than it has done before.
Thanks for taking the time and effort of writing this.
/tensor
poster:tensor
thread:1035749
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20130112/msgs/1036058.html