![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 20 to 44 of 129. Go back in thread:
Posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 17:57:24
In reply to Re: I got upset *trigger*, posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 17:54:19
HCl in the stomach is much more acidic anyways.
I was just thinking maybe the antacid would lessen the absorption of the ASA.
Oh well, whatever. I didn't take that much.
Posted by Dinah on January 4, 2006, at 18:16:37
In reply to I got upset *trigger*, posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 17:04:31
That seems like a question for a doctor.
Perhaps you should call one, or go to an after hours clinic.
Posted by JenStar on January 4, 2006, at 19:35:58
In reply to I got upset *trigger*, posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 17:04:31
Deneb,
you need to see a doctor, emergency room, ASAP. If you took more aspirin or any drug than recommended, antacids are NOT going to be enough to get the med out of your system.Don't further jeopardize your health. Go get help immediately.
JenStar
Posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 19:44:19
In reply to go to emergency room asap » Deneb, posted by JenStar on January 4, 2006, at 19:35:58
> Deneb,
> you need to see a doctor, emergency room, ASAP. If you took more aspirin or any drug than recommended, antacids are NOT going to be enough to get the med out of your system.
>
> Don't further jeopardize your health. Go get help immediately.
>
> JenStarIt's OK JenStar.
I've taken more than the amount I took today once before seeing pdoc1. I told her about it and she didn't send me to the hospital. I got some ringing in the ears and stuff, but I was OK after a day.
deneb
Posted by Phillipa on January 4, 2006, at 19:53:07
In reply to Re: go to emergency room asap, posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 19:44:19
Besides ringing in the ears you are prone to bleeding and that could be internal bleeding. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by alexandra_k on January 4, 2006, at 19:53:50
In reply to Re: Too afraid to get help » Deneb, posted by Larry Hoover on January 4, 2006, at 16:44:53
((((((Larry)))))))
I'm sorry :-(
Sometimes...
All we can do is remove ourselves...
And not respond.
Because... Yes... Things can get to us and be too draining.I know you have done a lot to try and help
A lot of people here have...I don't think that words like 'manipulative' etc are helpful...
But I do understand the frustration.
Sometimes...
The best thing is simply to not respond.
Because...
Responding only seems to feed the problem.
Sometimes people do need to hit a low...
Before they are prepared to do something to help themself.
And the road to being able to communicate honestly with people (including ones clinicians)
Well... Sometimes one has to learn *how*.I understand that...
But there is no magical way to give someone that knowledge...
And the road can be long and hard.
But the decision to walk along that road...
Nobody can make that decision for another person.
And sometimes trying to coax them into it...
Well...
Therapists see people for an hour or two every week rather than every day for a reason I suppose...
And yeah.
We have our own stuff...
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 4, 2006, at 21:19:58
In reply to Re: Too afraid to get help » Deneb, posted by Larry Hoover on January 4, 2006, at 16:44:53
> > I just hate letting my p-docs down by not > Are you concerned that you are too messed up to manipulate them again, or did I miss something?
>Perhaps this is some sort of "tough love" method.
But I don't think labelling someone's behaviour in this case is helpful.You don't know.. you can't know what is going through someone else's mind.
And this is something P.Docs go through all the time. It's not unusual for someone to resist treatment, and there are many reasons for it.
It's part of the illness and sometimes it takes years.
I don't really believe help or offerings of advice should be given with expectations of obedience.
I can understand if you feel that way to not talk about that subject.. but none of us has gone through life without making decisions that frustrate other people.It's a hard hard thing to go through. And sometimes we have to learn from our own mistakes.
Mental illness isn't always convenient for everyone else, and wellness doesn't necessarily run on your time schedule.I've also seen other people who go on and off there medications with regularity, and post about the ensuing upset, and for some reason they don't draw the same criticism as Deneb does.
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 4, 2006, at 21:29:26
In reply to Re: Too afraid to get help » Deneb, posted by Larry Hoover on January 4, 2006, at 16:44:53
> Trying to help you has made me sick.
That was your choice Larry, It's not Deneb's responsibilty.
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 4, 2006, at 22:16:26
In reply to Re: Too afraid to get help » Larry Hoover, posted by alexandra_k on January 4, 2006, at 19:53:50
"You don't know.. you can't know what is going through someone else's mind."
"I don't think that words like 'manipulative' etc are helpful..."
Don't judge *me*, then.
I am using her words. She has said she manipulates her pdocs. Over and over again.
I got her to make an appointment by using her language. "execute the plan"
I got her to note her behaviour with respect to her pdocs by using her language.
Manipulate. Her language. Meant for her.
Don't tell me how to do my thing.
Do yours. And leave me alone.
Posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 22:23:11
In reply to To Gabbi and alexandra, posted by Larry Hoover on January 4, 2006, at 22:16:26
Larry,
You sound upset. :-(
I hope you are OK. I don't want you to think about me anymore. Please take care of yourself first Larry. Now I'm worried about you. Please don't get upset on account of me.
Deneb
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 4, 2006, at 22:31:57
In reply to To Gabbi and alexandra, posted by Larry Hoover on January 4, 2006, at 22:16:26
I'm sorry.
i am not at all well
i need a babblebreak
Posted by alexandra_k on January 4, 2006, at 22:32:54
In reply to Re: Too afraid to get help » Larry Hoover, posted by Gabbix2 on January 4, 2006, at 21:19:58
Hey. I understand what you are saying and I agree.
But also...
I understand the feeling of frustration and I have sympathy.
And you can understand both at the same time and there is no contradiction in that...
> you can't know what is going through someone else's mind.
Indeed. And quite often... I don't know what is going through my own mind either. I don't know *why* I do some of the things I do. I don't know the reason I don't know my motivation I don't know...
Because... To a very large extent it is a matter of interpretation...
And it is not like you hit upon the fact of the matter by introspection...
It is that there are more or less helpful interpretations (ones that tend to help ones that tend to harm) though sometimes hitting upon a helpful interpretation can be hard...
> And this is something P.Docs go through all the time. It's not unusual for someone to resist treatment, and there are many reasons for it.
> It's part of the illness and sometimes it takes years.Yes.
I also think... That it is important for Deneb to know something about *why* other people do in fact feel frustrated in response to some of her posts. Because regardless of whether other people *have* to feel frustrated or whether they *choose* to feel frustrated; regardless of whether it is *rational* for them to feel frustrated or *irrational* for them to feel frustrated... The fact remains that sometimes people do feel frustrated in response to her posts.
And of course... That is not the end of the world. And people are surely frustrated with me at times and they can of course care about me a whole heap AT THE VERY SAME TIME as they feel frustrated with me (in fact people tend to feel frustrated because they do care)... But the point is that if Deneb wants helpful and / or sympathetic responses from people off the boards... Then people tend to not respond in that way when they feel frustrated.
That is a fact.
> I don't really believe help or offerings of advice should be given with expectations of obedience.
I agree with you there.
What can be hard...
Is when there is a course of action that is very likely to help...
But the person does not do that.
One can't make them...
But what else can one do to help?
It is like...
There is something just there that would probably help if only the person would do it...
Like how if someone is drowning and you can see the flotation device right next to them in the water...
And you say 'grab the flotation device'
And they don't...
They just keep talking about how they are drowning
And they won't grab the devicePeople are going to feel frustrated because they feel powerless...
It seems to them *there is nothing I can do*
And yet there is something that the person can do to help themself and yet they will not.In those cases...
Well...
DBT therapists have peer support for a reason...
But sometimes for ones own mental health
(And this can also be something that therapists find when they don't have adequate peer support)
They need to walk away.
Because...
Of their own mental health.
Other people don't have an infinite amount of energy...
But if the person can be seen to be making an honest effort to grab the flotation device...
Well...
That is all it takes to reenergise the cheerleaders on the sidelines.And if Deneb wants people to support her...
She needs to learn that she needs to care for her supporters
Because support takes effort
And effort is a limited capacity resource
And nobody has infinite patience...
Or energy...
> but none of us has gone through life without making decisions that frustrate other people.Absolutely. And in those cases... Well... Thats when one really needs to weigh up the pros and cons. About how much one is sacrificing oneself or somehting that one believes in for the sake of another persons preferences... That is a hard decision..
DO you think that applies here to Deneb?
(I know it applies in your past... But do you think it applies here?)
> It's a hard hard thing to go through. And sometimes we have to learn from our own mistakes.
Yes.
And that can be the hardest thing in the world to watch in other people...> I've also seen other people who go on and off there medications with regularity, and post about the ensuing upset, and for some reason they don't draw the same criticism as Deneb does.
Frequency?
The intense nature of the distress?
The point that the meds seemed to lead to a DRAMATIC improvement?I wonder why...
Posted by alexandra_k on January 4, 2006, at 22:34:52
In reply to Re: To Gabbi and alexandra, posted by Larry Hoover on January 4, 2006, at 22:31:57
It is okay sweetie, I know you are upset...
There are hugs for you over at the site that shall not be named ;-)
Take care of yourself...
Do something nice...(((((Larry)))))
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 4, 2006, at 22:51:28
In reply to Re: Too afraid to get help » Gabbix2, posted by alexandra_k on January 4, 2006, at 22:32:54
> Hey. I understand what you are saying and I agree.
>
> But also...
>
> I understand the feeling of frustration and I have sympathy.
>
> And you can understand both at the same time and there is no contradiction in that...No absolutely not. I didn't mention it because it had already been made clear.
>
> DO you think that applies here to Deneb?I can't know that.
And I know for myself, I really don't get frustrated when people don't do what others think might be good for them. I might in a personal relationship, where I was living with someone and it affected us that way.
It's unusual I think.
But I think once they know, what *may* be good for them, it's really up to them to steer the ship.
But I do understand why other people get frustrated.
>> Yes.
> And that can be the hardest thing in the world to watch in other people...
>
> > I've also seen other people who go on and off there medications with regularity, and post about the ensuing upset, and for some reason they don't draw the same criticism as Deneb does.
>
> Frequency?
> The intense nature of the distress?
> The point that the meds seemed to lead to a DRAMATIC improvement?
>
> I wonder why...No, I've seen it with others frequently, who are just as distressed.
It's rather to me like watching an alcoholic or a drug addict make several attempts.. and going back.
Regardless. It's the not taking the medication that is the issue here. Lot's of people don't do it. What the result is, or how it manifests itself is simply a roll of the dice. The intent, and the reason for not taking it is no more deserving of negative judgement because of the result.
If two children are playing with matches, and one gets away without injury, while the other burns the house down.. the second isn't more deserving of punishment, The act is the same.
And absolutely if you can't risk that it might not end up the way you wish, without becoming very upset, then don't get involved.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 4, 2006, at 23:10:57
In reply to Re: Too afraid to get help » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on January 4, 2006, at 22:51:28
> It's rather to me like watching an alcoholic or a drug addict make several attempts.. and going back.
Yes. And it can be hard to watch. Well... It isn't so hard to watch when you don't care about the person... But it can be hard to watch when you do care about the person.
But you are right... Judgement isn't helpful.
I don't think Larry was being judgemental...
But I do think he was feeling frustrated.
And it can be hard (or next to impossible) to post helpful responses when one is feeling frustrated.At least... I know that it is really very hard for me.
And so in those times... It is better for me to walk away from the situation. Yes. Which isn't to say that I can't return later... But it is to say that sometimes I need to walk away for my own mental health yes.
> Regardless. It's the not taking the medication that is the issue here.
Possibly...
Though I think a combination of medication and therapy would be the most likely to have the best result...> Lot's of people don't do it. What the result is, or how it manifests itself is simply a roll of the dice. The intent, and the reason for not taking it is no more deserving of negative judgement because of the result.
I agree with you.
But I also think that people are most likely to feel frustrated when there is a course of action that has been demonstrated to help considerably in that person in the recent past...
They are less likely to feel frustrated when there is a course of action that nobody really knows whether it will help or not...> if you can't risk that it might not end up the way you wish, without becoming very upset, then don't get involved.
I had a therapist once... When I had very intense and recurrent suicidal urges... She told me one day... That the thing that she was most afraid of was that one of her clients would kill themself. She said that she understood that I was at high risk... And she said that she understood that she was likely to encounter clients who were at high risk. She said that she had a lot of supervision / therapy around that when she was training to become a therapist. She said that she did agonise for a while about whether she should be a therapist given her fear. She agonised about whether she should pass on clients who were at high risk because of her fear...
But she didn't walk away from me.
Well... Not for a long while. Not until DBT became a viable option for me.
She helped me.
But it was hard going...
Hard going for the both of us...I don't know.
Posted by Racer on January 4, 2006, at 23:29:24
In reply to Re: Too afraid to get help » LegWarmers, posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 11:39:48
> > >
> > I don't see the logic? People go to a pdoc to prevent things like that from happening. An OD might make you look like yyou are manipulating and not be taken seriously. Just tell him you need his help, and why don't you go back to pdoc 1?
>
> I hadn't thought of it that way...that it might be seen as manipulation. I guess in order for it not to be seen as manipulation I would need to take a more serious OD. But that runs the risk of being put in the hospital.
>
>
Deneb? You know how people are trying to help you learn *why* they become so upset at some of your posts? I think I've put this out to you before, but here's a secret that the world has apparently been keeping from you: You don't have to be "the very worst in the world" in order to be in distress. It's perfectly OK -- ENCOURAGED, even -- to walk in there and say, "You know, I stopped the medications because I didn't think they were helping me -- and maybe that was a mistake," rather than "I'm going to have to OD now, so Rescue Me."I realize this is devastating to a lot of people, myself included, but ain't no one gonna rescue any of us, really. Sure, we can pull you out of the water today, but if you jump back in tomorrow, you'll be wet again. The idea is that once you get rescued, let's continue the water metaphor here, once your feet are on solid ground again, it's YOUR responsibility to avoid falling back in.
On the other hand, if next week you fall into quicksand, that's different. It's just that it does seem manipulative if you jump back into that lake one more time, after being rescued.
Deneb, I can't do anything for you. The best I can offer is this: you don't have to be standing on the bridge before you ask for help. You don't have to be ready to hurt yourself in order to "deserve" treatment. In fact, you'll get a whole lot more support if you show that *you* are supporting yourself, too.
Go forth, and support yourself, with out help. Good luck.
Posted by James K on January 5, 2006, at 1:46:02
In reply to Re: Too afraid to get help » LegWarmers, posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 11:39:48
> If I'm ever going to OD again, I'd better do it AFTER my semester is over, perhaps in April or the beginning of May. Must remember to not breakdown before my semester is over.
> Deneb
Quotes from James' past -
"don't worry I won't do anything while my wife is out of town. That would be too hard on her."
So a couple of weeks later .32 blood alcohol, ambien, vicodin, uncounted stitches, and a near potassium coma. That was much easier on her. I wasn't even around to clean the blood.
"they won't take me seriously unless I show them I really need help."
now I have the words f**k the world carved into my chest with a razor blade. and safety pin holes all over my body. And hammer bruises all over my body. they knew I was serious they kept me in PICU involuntarily. I have a court record of an involuntary commitment.
I'm sharing my examples not because I think you'll end up in the same boats, but because it doesn't have to be necessary to end up in any boats. If I had taken care of business along the way, chances are I wouldn't have randomly woken up on two days about a year apart and begun dismantling myself.
My meds have kicked in, good night
keep safe,
James
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 5, 2006, at 6:08:52
In reply to Re: Too afraid to get help » Gabbix2, posted by alexandra_k on January 4, 2006, at 23:10:57
> > It's rather to me like watching an alcoholic or a drug addict make several attempts.. and going back.
>
> Yes. And it can be hard to watch. Well... It isn't so hard to watch when you don't care about the person... But it can be hard to watch when you do care about the person.
>I don't think the level of caring is an issue I was addressing, I can'measure that, and I suppose if you don't care it wouldn't be so hard, but not getting frustrated, can also be an aspect of experience and education, and have nothing to do with caring less.
In the past work I've done I had to learn to be able to love and care without expecation, or I would not have been able to stay in the field as long as I did.> But you are right... Judgement isn't helpful.
> I don't think Larry was being judgemental...
> But I do think he was feeling frustrated.
> And it can be hard (or next to impossible) to post helpful responses when one is feeling frustrated.
>
I did not say he was being judgemental.> At least... I know that it is really very hard for me.
>
> And so in those times... It is better for me to walk away from the situation. Yes. Which isn't to say that I can't return later... But it is to say that sometimes I need to walk away for my own mental health yes.
>
> > Regardless. It's the not taking the medication that is the issue here.
>
> Possibly...
> Though I think a combination of medication and therapy would be the most likely to have the best result...
>
It was the not taking of the medication that caused the biggest stir. The rest of what may help is another topic, one to be discussed with Deneb.> > Lot's of people don't do it. What the result is, or how it manifests itself is simply a roll of the dice. The intent, and the reason for not taking it is no more deserving of negative judgement because of the result.
>
> I agree with you.
> But I also think that people are most likely to feel frustrated when there is a course of action that has been demonstrated to help considerably in that person in the recent past...
> They are less likely to feel frustrated when there is a course of action that nobody really knows whether it will help or not...
>
I don't think I was questioning why people feel frustrated.> > if you can't risk that it might not end up the way you wish, without becoming very upset, then don't get involved.
>
> I had a therapist once... When I had very intense and recurrent suicidal urges... She told me one day... That the thing that she was most afraid of was that one of her clients would kill themself. She said that she understood that I was at high risk... And she said that she understood that she was likely to encounter clients who were at high risk. She said that she had a lot of supervision / therapy around that when she was training to become a therapist. She said that she did agonise for a while about whether she should be a therapist given her fear. She agonised about whether she should pass on clients who were at high risk because of her fear...
>
> But she didn't walk away from me.
>
> Well... Not for a long while. Not until DBT became a viable option for me.
>
> She helped me.
>
> But it was hard going...
> Hard going for the both of us...
>
> I don't know.
>
>
I've had that as well, not with therapists, but I needed people who didn't have there own time frame for me, and it was crucial to me that they didn't express their anger or frustration, that would set me right back.There were some angels, and they did care, although they didn't get angry, or remind me how much work I was, and that's what got me through.
I'm not quite sure how this got to be a discussion on frustration, and caring.
I was saying how I felt, that's all.
And I don't think the level of frustration is always equal to the level of caring, there are many things which factor into that.
Posted by James K on January 5, 2006, at 15:31:10
In reply to Some people are in real danger *triggers* » Deneb, posted by James K on January 5, 2006, at 1:46:02
I should have been asleep. I don't feel I was appropriate in that post and I apologize.
sorry,
James K
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 5, 2006, at 16:11:05
In reply to Re: Too afraid to get help » Deneb, posted by Larry Hoover on January 4, 2006, at 16:44:53
> You manipulate them (in other words, you lie to them). You ... overdose on non-prescribed medication as a game.
I'm sorry you don't feel well, but please don't jump to conclusions about others or post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down. Even using their own words. I'm going to block you from posting for another 6 weeks because I think a civil atmosphere is good for the community. But I realize this is also likely to upset you and others. I'm sorry, and I hope we can get through this together.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
One possibility is to ask another poster to be your "civility buddy" and preview posts before you submit them.
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on January 5, 2006, at 16:47:31
In reply to Re: Too afraid to get help » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on January 5, 2006, at 6:08:52
> > Yes. And it can be hard to watch. Well... It isn't so hard to watch when you don't care about the person... But it can be hard to watch when you do care about the person.
> I don't think the level of caring is an issue I was addressing, I can'measure that, and I suppose if you don't care it wouldn't be so hard, but not getting frustrated, can also be an aspect of experience and education, and have nothing to do with caring less.Yeah, you weren't talking about 'level of caring' I guess I was just talking about how sometimes people do feel frustrated because they care. That wasn't in response to anything you said so much as me making a more general comment. And of course some people don't feel frustrated in response and that does not entail that they care any less. Sometimes... That latter person is in a better place in themselves. Sometimes that latter person has a higher threshold for frustration etc etc there are many factors...
> I did not say he was being judgemental.
I know you didn't say that or imply that at all. I guess I just wanted to clarify that to make sure Larry knew that we weren't accusing him of being judgemental (or thinking that he was being judgemental).
> It was the not taking of the medication that caused the biggest stir.
Maybe... Or maybe it was the repeated pattern of not taking it then taking too much of it...
> The rest of what may help is another topic, one to be discussed with Deneb.
Been there done that. I guess I'll have to see...
> I've had that as well, not with therapists, but I needed people who didn't have there own time frame for me, and it was crucial to me that they didn't express their anger or frustration, that would set me right back.Hmm. Sometimes... Yeah, I hear you. But also... Sometimes there is a lesson in that too that if someone feels a little angry or frustrated then that is not the end of the world. They can feel a little angry or frustrated in response to your behaviour while AT THE VERY SAME TIME caring about you really very much.
I think I hear what you are saying. Disgust... I guess thats my fear... That other people will express or be unable to conceal their disgust in response to me.
I'm not sure about that therapist I saw... In a way... Probably she should have passed me on. Probably she shouldn't have told me what she did. Did it impact on my telling her about my suicidal urges etc? Yes. It did. I'd still tell her I had urges, but I refrained from the graphic details. I learned something there... I learned that my telling her all that... Had an effect on her. It affected her very much. And... Did it benefit me to tell her all the graphic details? Not really. I could convey the same information by saying 'yeah, the thoughts / urges were pretty bad this week' and leaving it at that.
I don't know.
> There were some angels, and they did care, although they didn't get angry, or remind me how much work I was, and that's what got me through.
Yes. I hear you.
But...
I still want to come back to the flotation device analogy...
Sure it helps to know there are people on the sidelines cheering you on...
It helps one not be overcome with despair...
But long term...
It is a 'maintenence' strategy...
It needs to be fairly constant
If there is a break...
Things can fall apart
And...
Why?
Why why why
When one can learn the skills to swim?
And when there is a flotation device right there to help one while one takes the steps one needs to take in order to learn the skills?Maybe...
It is time for me to walk away too.
Not necessarily forever...
But I do keep coming back to the point that...
It takes considerable energy / effort to help / support someone through hard times.
It does.
And I really don't mind doing that...
I really don't mind.
Especially when I can see that my responses are well recieved and that the person benefits from them.
But...
When it seems that the energy / effort is coming from me...
And the person isn't expending energy / effort in taking the steps that would enable them to support themself and learn how to help themself
Well...Then I do believe it is time for me to walk away...
Maybe it is seeing it like that that shows me that...But there it is.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 5, 2006, at 16:48:18
In reply to please ignore my previous post » James K, posted by James K on January 5, 2006, at 15:31:10
((((((James K))))))
Posted by alexandra_k on January 5, 2006, at 16:48:58
In reply to Re: To Gabbi and alexandra, posted by Larry Hoover on January 4, 2006, at 22:31:57
Posted by alexandra_k on January 5, 2006, at 16:49:23
In reply to Re: (((((Larry)))))) (nm), posted by alexandra_k on January 5, 2006, at 16:48:58
Posted by alexandra_k on January 5, 2006, at 16:49:42
In reply to Re: (((((Deneb)))))) (nm), posted by alexandra_k on January 5, 2006, at 16:49:23
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