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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tootercat on June 10, 2004, at 15:10:19
Just wanted to see if today is a better place than a few days ago.
Don't know if you saw my post from the 8th. If you did I hope it helped to comfort and give hope.
Take care,
Tooter<<<<<<<<This may sound like all the other "crap" we've been fed over the years, but the very fact that you are alive and communicating your feelings is part of why you are here. It gives others a place to identify that they are not alone and that it is ok to "whine". So many isolate and never feel the love and support that comes from this site. If we were all happy all of the time this wonderful place would not be here as a safety net to catch us. Through the pain that we all have suffered we are able to reach out to others and "be there" for them and to share the strength that is gained only through adversity. Nobody gets stronger through constant joy. This place is the ultimate symbol of HOPE. Shared pain/anger/fear etc is lessened. Only that which is kept inside is fed by the monster that lives in our damaged psyches. Shared joy is heightened and gives joy to more than just the one sharing. I have been to my own depths of despair and thoughts of self destruction and can honestly say that it brought me to a place of humility and gratitude that I pray I never forget. I have often taken my life for granted and need to be reminded that it is a gift; and even if I don't feel that way about myself others DO. Granted sometimes that isn't worth doodley squat but it has often been the only thing that kept me from death. Please please do not feel that your cries for help are unwanted or unheeded. There are those who need to be able to help as they have been helped. Love and hope to all who seek it,
tooter >>>>>>>>>>
Posted by Racer on June 10, 2004, at 15:40:43
In reply to Racer and Antigua....any better?, posted by tootercat on June 10, 2004, at 15:10:19
I can't tell anyone what caused it, but the really intense anguish seems to be passing. It's so damnably hard to tell how much might be related to the bad med reaction with the long half-life, how much is an emotional reaction to the bad med reaction, how much is emotional turmoil about making life-altering decisions about the insurance, how much is just emotional response to my life, etc. Then again, maybe it just doesn't matter what causes those troughs, right? It's bad enough that I have them, trying to figure out the relative importance of the biochemical and the psychological shouldn't become a stressor in its own right.
It helps that, for some reason, I'm not feeling as leaden as I was. That part may have been the med reaction, because it did start the second day after discontinuing it. Of course, it could also have been an emotional reaction to the pdoc's message as relayed through the office staff. Whatever it was, the leaden feeling was terrible. I literally could not start talking without a huge effort, it felt as if I was already dead. (That, by the way, was still an improvement over how I felt while taking the drug, just to give you some perspective.) I could still type, though.
Yesterday we had a marriage counseling session, which my husband (a/k/a The Second Most Wonderful Man In The World) moved up because I was talking suicide again. (At least I told him this time, and he heard me this time.) When we got there, I could not say a word, but once I started talking, it did flow along better. That helped, that they were patient with me while I couldn't talk, and let me find my way to being able to string the words together. It was slow, but it did happen.
Today was my first session with the new therapist, and there were a few of those 'not able to talk' moments, but we got through them. And I did warn her that that had been a problem, but seemed to be better today.
In other words, I have externally verifiable proof that I'm better today than I was yesterday, and much better than the day before. (It may have helped that the MC told my husband, when he called to ask if he should force me to the psych. ER, that she didn't think so: she told him that I did seem able to rally myself enough to stay safe, and that I had told him that I was actively suicidal so that he could keep me safe. It was comforting to me that she expressed what seems like faith that I can be trusted in this. Maybe that's the answer to why I'm feeling better today?)
Now, considering the length of my average post, doesn't it shake the foundations of the universe as you know it to learn that I could not speak out loud?
(Or maybe that explains the length of my average post right there?)
Posted by antigua on June 10, 2004, at 18:46:41
In reply to Racer and Antigua....any better?, posted by tootercat on June 10, 2004, at 15:10:19
That's a tough question to answer. I want to say yes, but the real answer is no. Tomorrow is the last day of school for my younger kids so I took the opportunity to do what I wanted today (very unusual): I stayed in bed all day. Depression can be so exhausting.
I've done all the right things--called my T last night, called my best friend and she's promised to come for a visit next week. She keeps hitting me with "your kids will think they were responsible" if I totally give up and as much as I hate hearing that for right now she is probably right, although in many ways I feel they would be much better w/o me.
My world has gotten so small. I just don't want to talk to anyone. I isolate, and that's always a really bad sign.
I guess that I feel this will never get better. I've been at it for so very long and it just seems to get worse and worse, never better. I mean the therapy part, and how it affects my day to day life. There appears to be no bottom. Maybe this is as good as it gets and I just have to accept that.
I really need to make an appt with a new pdoc, but I just don't want to make the connection to another medical professional. I just can't trust again, and I don't want the anguish. I know that when I can't make myself do something (pick up the phone and dial, for ex) than something strong is keeping me from doing it.
I'm sick of myself and my whining.
antigua
Posted by Racer on June 10, 2004, at 19:55:17
In reply to Re: Racer and Antigua....any better?, posted by antigua on June 10, 2004, at 18:46:41
Man, that really resonates for me, Antigua. That's about how I was feeling the other day, when I "gave up" for a while. I can only imagine that having me respond, while I'm feeling better than I was, may make you feel even worse, but I did want to tell you about some of what I've been thinking about today, in case it helps you, too. It really did help me, and it's perfectly OK if it doesn't help you. I think by now the entire universe knows that, when I'm as far down as you are right now, NOTHING will help me, and hearing all the well meaning advice in the world just makes me feel even worse -- because I CAN'T do the things people always seem to suggest, even if I KNOW that they would help me. Man, depression really is a life-force-sucker, no question about that.
Here's what I've been musing about: for me, at least, depression is an IMMEDIATE condition. Whatever I feel RIGHTTHISMINUTE, is how I've always felt, and how I always will feel, and nothing ever changes. The last few months, I have been entirely resistant to the very idea of meds, because I can't remember that I ever truly felt better while taking them. Even today, when I know that I'm a heckova lot better than Tuesday, I look back on the time when I was on Paxil, and all I can remember is being lethargic, fat, and constipated. I can remember that I "responded well" to it, and I can remember that I was able to do things that I hadn't been able to do before starting it, but I can't remember *feeling* any better than I do now. (Part of that has to do with trying to go back on it when my father died, but that's another story.) (And, in a way, I think it would be worse if I *could* remember feeling better, you know?) So, that sense of immutability is a real problem, at least for me.
Here's something else I'm finally realizing: there's now sufficient evidence to convince me that there is a real, scientifically verifiable genetic basis for the susceptibility to depression. Even so, one of the researchers involved in that study was quoted in an article I read about it as saying something like, "The gene only codes for a susceptibility to getting depression after life stressors. Many perfectly normal people have the gene, but don't have depression, because they haven't experienced those stressors that would trigger it." Wanna know something? My 'internal interpretation' of that is to verify what I already "know" emotionally: that there's nothing really wrong with me except for being weak and lazy. Get it? I am so convinced that this is my fault that I can even verify that idea for myself in a study showing that depression is REAL, fer cryin' out loud! And you wanna know something else? That only counts for me. When other people get depressed, I really do believe that they're responding to a genetically programmed susceptibility to stress. Now, you gotta remember that we're talking about core, internal beliefs here -- my most deeply held views, those things that even I can't really access fully. Even though on some level I really do know that depression is real, and not just me being lazy and weak; even though I know that it's the depression itself telling me that I'm lazy and weak; even though I know all this -- I still do not accept that it's not just me being lazy and weak. So, the depression distorts us in very deep, very fundamental ways.
Here's something else that helped me, way back: my old therapist and I used to talk about depression as The Beast, because it was like a living thing, fighting for survival. It really feels sometimes like some sort of emotional parasite, sucking the life out of its host to insure its own survival. A lot of those feelings you described are like what The Beast does to me. (Of course, The Beast only does them to me because I'm weak and lazy and deserve them, but that's only true for me -- you're different. ;-D) Thinking about the depression as a force separate from me really helped me, so I offer it to you in hopes that it might help you, too.
(Add to all that a note about my own current pdoc-phobia: I don't know if you've read about my situation, but I'm stuck with Dr EyeCandy -- which at least provides a great deal of visual pleasure -- for another six months. I really and truly have no other options -- and that's not a distortion. My Adventures In EyeCandyLand have me running scared, in a big way, despite knowing on some level that I do respond well to the right drugs. In fact, I'd go a lot farther: it is the problems I've had with the agency that he works for that have sparked and fueled my resistance to trying any meds. I really and truly do know that I've responded well to meds in the past, and that my life has improved because of it. [don't ask if I believe that it's possible for that to happen again -- The Beast says that it can't happen] I've been thinking back on my experiences with doctors -- pdocs and otherwise -- lately, and I have been looking at websites about standards of care, and I've reminded myself that this REALLY isn't my fault. I've reminded myself that I've had good experiences with doctors and with meds and I've also verified that it's not my imagination that he's not doing a good job with me. That helped me immeasurably. It really doesn't help me in terms of getting good care now, but at least it allows me to hope that once I can change doctors, it will be an improvement. I envy you the opportunity to see a new doctor, and hope so much that you can make the call soon, and that he'll have an excellent personality for you, and be able to provide some relief.)
Antigua, I guess all I really wanted to say to you is that I hope it gets better for you, and soon. Trust me, if someone as truly, wretchedly undeserving as I am can feel better than we were both feeling the other day, someone as miraculous as you are can, too. If you can get out of bed, can you make yourself some cocoa? You deserve the best, whatever that is for you.
Posted by DaisyM on June 11, 2004, at 10:42:08
In reply to Re: Racer and Antigua....any better?, posted by antigua on June 10, 2004, at 18:46:41
Antigua,
I think I understand the darkness. I told my T yesterday that he couldn't change what happened, he couldn't keep me safe from the memories and they were killing me. I wasn't effective at work, at home or anywhere else. I was driving and closed my eyes against a memory, and then remembered I was driving...
I called last night and for the first time EVER, he didn't call back. (OK, his answer system was all screwed up so even as I left the message I was pretty sure this was going to turn out bad) I took myself away from home because I was here alone and my "plan" involves stuff here. Eventually I signed into Open from my office and sucked support out of everyone there. I wish you could have been there too.
I realize I'm not helping. I just want you to know you aren't alone. And your kids need you. However you are. They love you and I'm sure you are doing the best you can with them. I keep telling myself this. Hang in there. I made Racer a deal that I would if she would. How about it?
Hugs from me.
Daisy
Posted by antigua on June 11, 2004, at 12:17:51
In reply to Re: Racer and Antigua....any better? » antigua, posted by DaisyM on June 11, 2004, at 10:42:08
That's very nice of you Daisy, but I don't make promises. I don't make promises because I don't want to ever break them. Too many promises broken when I was a kid, too much waiting around for people to materialize who never showed up. My kids think I'm strange, but they're used to it now. Well, I guess that's not absolutely true. When I married my husband I think I made a few promises...
I do have good kids. They are so well adjusted that I just watch them w/awe. My husband had a happy childhood and he has been my role model w/the kids. I don't know the rules, so he has been my guide. Things that seem perfectly normal to me are totally bizarre to him.
But then again, my husband thinks he's perfect and his standards for me are beyond my capacity at the moment. That sounds strange, but it's hard to explain. He doesn't understand what I'm going through--he really tries, but it's just so foreign to him. He doesn't say, "why don't you just get over it," but he lacks an innate compassion about the suffering. He just is angry about what was done to me--my T says he is so angry because I'm not; I let him carry/express my anger instead of expressing it myself.
My husband is angry that we haven't achieved what he thought we would set out to do in life. I can't help but think that I've let him down. My take is that I've come further than I ever thought possible with my children, so I don't expect a lot more. He does. I haven't been working steady in the past year and when the bills pile up, he starts looking my way. I can't concentrate enough to work right now.
But I really think now that it will never get better. It really only gets worse. I've been severely depressed for an entire year now--it has never lasted this long before and it gets worse every time. There's a hopelessness that just permeates everything. It's all just too heavy. It's not even the memories that are killing me--most are still just below the surface and now I've accepted that I may never reach them. Some people never do. You can't keep this up for 14 years at this pace and still not get anywhere. I've learned so much about myself, but it doesn't change anything. I still can't escape my past, I can't work through it and my future includes just more of the same.
Geez this is depressing. Sorry. You were being kind and I cry all over you. Maybe it's just denial kicking in--nothing will ever be better.
antigua
Posted by TofuEmmy on June 11, 2004, at 12:42:17
In reply to Re: Racer and Antigua....any better?, posted by antigua on June 10, 2004, at 18:46:41
Oh jeepers. I have like two minutes to write cuz I have to git to the docs. But, whenever I see a mom say that her kids would be better off without her, well, heck, it just...gets my goat. :-)
You're all probably sick of MY whining, whay whay poor Emmy whose mom suicided...blah blah blah. But, tough taters.
Antigua (couldn't you pick a name I can spell??)
NO WAY IN HELL (please spare me a PBC!) ARE YOUR CHILDREN BETTER OFF WITHOUT YOU! My mom thought the same darn thing, and wrote that in her friggin suicide note. When I read it, my jaw dropped. How could she possibly believe that my life would be improved with a dead mommie??? Heeelllooo???? Dead Mommy??? This is a BAD BAD thing!!!! Even a very very very very sad mommy is a BUTT LOAD better than a dead mommy. Got that?????? Am I PBC'd yet????
Sweetie pie honey snuggle bumms....please oh please...when you think those thoughts, that your brain screaming "Feed me Serotonin!" It's like your hat's on crooked. You head's tilted. Your poor brain needs straightening!! And the rest of you needs hugging. Just wish I was there to do it!!!!
Ok...did I make my point??? Stay alive, for you, your kids, your hub, your Babble pals, and for all the days in the future which WILL be good ones. I promise.
Em
Posted by B2chica on June 11, 2004, at 12:59:18
In reply to Re: Racer and Antigua....any better? » DaisyM, posted by antigua on June 11, 2004, at 12:17:51
>They are so well adjusted that I just watch them w/awe. My husband had a happy childhood and he has been my role model w/the kids. I don't know the rules, so he has been my guide. Things that seem perfectly normal to me are totally bizarre to him.
-This really resonates with me. i don't yet have children, but i sometimes watch my husband and his family with this awe. It's almost as if i watch them to see how i'm really supposed to be? My husband and i were just talking (arguing) the other night and our views were like day and night. Things that are normal to me are like a (and i quote) 'freak show' to him. that it's "just not right". this frustrates me beyond words, but i think cuz a part of me gets confused, it's all i've known.
> But then again, my husband thinks he's perfect and his standards for me are beyond my capacity at the moment.
>He doesn't understand what I'm going through--he really tries, but it's just so foreign to him. He doesn't say, "why don't you just get over it," but he lacks an innate compassion about the suffering.-Bingo. i had to look at this twice to make sure i didn't write this. He just doesn't understand at all, but the problem is he understands when it's convienient for him. If it doesn't effect him he says he's "there for me". But if it interferes with a social event or something then i'm just "doing this to torture him".
I know he really is a good man, but he doesn't understand what words do to me.Please Antigua, just keep in your mind those beautiful gifts your children. one of the other responses mention that they would rather have a sad mommy then a dead one...they were right on. they need you. and please check in with a new pdoc cuz medication changes may be the answer for you.
know we love and support you here.
Please take care.
b2c.
Posted by DaisyM on June 11, 2004, at 14:06:40
In reply to Re: Racer and Antigua....any better? » DaisyM, posted by antigua on June 11, 2004, at 12:17:51
A-
Don't apologize for "crying" all over me. I like to feel useful. Besides, you should have seen me in Open last night. I signed in with "I'm in trouble"...not exactly gentle.My kids are extraordinary. And I refuse to give my husband all the credit. He had a Beaver/Cleaver household but there were still problems. Every family has them. They just weren't in the same universe as mine. Not that you could tell by looking at us.
<<<<But then again, my husband thinks he's perfect and his standards for me are beyond my capacity at the moment. That sounds strange, but it's hard to explain. He doesn't understand what I'm going through--he really tries, but it's just so foreign to him. He doesn't say, "why don't you just get over it," but he lacks an innate compassion about the suffering.
>>>>TOTALLY!!! I think we all attract the same kind of man. We want someone who has high standards and doesn't go oozing all over the place. Otherwise we might have to share out pain. *sigh* Even if we secretly want to. Add to mine that he is angry at the whole world about how sick he is and he is particularly pissed at me because I don't have the ability to make it all better. And it is my job to make it all better. He often says, "but you help all these other people..." So we are in a double-bind. I don't ask for his help and I can't give him mine. And I don't deal with anyone's anger very well, so I keep banging my head trying anyway to fix everything.
I think it is only one part of me that wants out of all of this so badly. Because one part is mortified that I am so weak as to have even thought about suicide, let alone have a plan for it. And another part reminds me that I'll hurt people, especially my kids, and I simply don't do that. These two parts are yelling at the other part. So I'm tied up in knots and feel like I'm choking on the pain. But I'm still here...
I'm glad you are too. Hang in there, K? You don't have to promise. Just try.
Posted by antigua on June 11, 2004, at 18:25:56
In reply to Re: Racer and Antigua....any better?, posted by B2chica on June 11, 2004, at 12:59:18
You sure our husbands aren't brothers??? Mine doesn't have any brothers, but he could use one.
He is also helpful when it's "convenient" but more often he focuses on the effect this has had on HIS life, his sexual life, yada, yada, yada, how he doesn't want anyone else to feel sorry for him because he has this defective wife (sexually) so he doesn't want me to talk about it. His version of my problem. I guess that's probably the normal response.Mind you, he is a good man, he really is, and I do love him, but he's all that I've ever known. I met him when I was very young and never let go. But I got lucky too. Many abused women seek out abusers themselves; I picked a polar opposite of my father (in some ways, the important ways), but in other ways there are still the control issues.
antigua
Posted by antigua on June 11, 2004, at 18:32:53
In reply to Re: Racer and Antigua....any better? » antigua, posted by TofuEmmy on June 11, 2004, at 12:42:17
No, I'm sorry. I didn't know your mom suicided. I would have been more careful of what I said, so please forgive me.
That said, I don't know if a warped, sad, tortured mother IS actually better than a dead one. My mother was totally inacessible to me growing up--to know she was close but she wouldn't comfort or care for me was horrible. She later spent time in several mental hospitals and the whole world always revolved around her. I would bake her cookies and take them to her; sometimes she would respond, others she would spend in a catatonic stupor. My childlike mind thought that if she loved me enough, she would be there for me. As a mother now, I know that's not true, but I never want to let my children down. Yes, death would be the ultimate let down, but they wouldn't be faced w/a living death their whole lives.
As my mother got better, her response was to abandon me and run away to other countries for long stretches of time. She left me w/my father and his new family, and since he drank I was still alone.
I've always been alone. Except for my kids. But wanting to protect them is very important, too. It's finding that level where too much is too much for them. I do not want to cause them the pain I've lived with.
antigua
Posted by antigua on June 11, 2004, at 18:36:23
In reply to from one sad mommy to another, posted by DaisyM on June 11, 2004, at 14:06:40
My T told me this week that what I hate about other people so much is what I hate in myself: weakness. I hate other people for being weak, but I am the weakest of all. It doesn't make any sense, I know, but if I was stronger I wouldn't be in this mess today. Rationally I know that I AM here because I was strong enough to disassociate. But it doesn't feel like a strength now.
I do hate weakness, but I do know it's because I hate weakness in myself.
antigua
Posted by TofuEmmy on June 11, 2004, at 19:48:52
In reply to Re: Racer and Antigua....any better? » TofuEmmy, posted by antigua on June 11, 2004, at 18:32:53
No forgiveness needed sweetie. I'm perfectly fine with talking about mom. I'm in a good place currently.
My mom spent some time catatonic too. She even had that "waxy flexibility" thing where I could move her arm up into the air and it would stay there. Talk about freaky. But ya know what...even then, I could crawl into bed with her. Even on her worst days, I would put my head on her chest and listen to her heartbeat. It was so comforting.
After she died, I used to walk to the grave yard - a very long walk for me. I'd bring a beach blanket, and lay on top of her grave. It was not nearly as nice. Ya know, never in my life have I told anyone that. Let's keep it our little secret.
Really truly - I've faced the monster myself, and once I was properly medicated, the fog did lift. I have that hope for you. Emmy
Posted by antigua on June 11, 2004, at 20:15:27
In reply to Re: Antigua....any better? » antigua, posted by TofuEmmy on June 11, 2004, at 19:48:52
You've lived through it, you know more than I do. I admire you.
All I want is peace.
antigua
Posted by TofuEmmy on June 11, 2004, at 20:31:51
In reply to Re: Antigua....any better? » TofuEmmy, posted by antigua on June 11, 2004, at 20:15:27
And I promise, you WILL have peace. When you are 92 years old, and your great grandchild finally stops crying, but not until AFTER she barfs on your left shoulder. :-P
Hugs to you sweetness.
Em
This is the end of the thread.
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