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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by All Done on March 9, 2004, at 9:04:02
In reply to Re: My family is driving me crazy. » Racer, posted by Dinah on March 8, 2004, at 22:00:41
Dinah,
After my dad passed away, my mom became extremely dependent on me. After talking a great deal about this in therapy, I've taken a step back. Actually, quite a few steps back. And you know what? She's taking care of herself, now. And it hasn't destroyed me, her, or our relationship. Every situation and family is different, but I'm hoping the same can happen for you and your dad. It sounds like you're being honest about how much you can handle and that's the first step. Good for you!
And, of course, we're here if it gets to be too much.
Take care,
All Done
Posted by All Done on March 9, 2004, at 9:05:42
In reply to Re: My family is driving me crazy. » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on March 9, 2004, at 7:14:19
> (((((Dinah)))))
>
> Your parents are very lucky to have you for a daughter.Good one, falls! I completely agree!
Posted by Racer on March 9, 2004, at 23:58:44
In reply to Re: My family is driving me crazy. » Racer, posted by Dinah on March 8, 2004, at 22:00:41
Posted by gardenergirl on March 10, 2004, at 0:45:06
In reply to Re: My family is driving me crazy- falls and Dinah, posted by All Done on March 9, 2004, at 9:05:42
Dinah,
I know this is really difficult. I have worked with older adults in nursing homes and rehab centers. The issues about losing independence and what will the family do are super hard to deal with. I admire you for what you are doing.That said, I admire you more for setting clear boundaries. That is so important for both you and your immediate family and for you parents. It's really hard for children of older parents to do this, as there is often guilt and other strong emotions competing with the reasons for decisions. I'm glad that your T and your husband support you on this. Applause for you, Dinah.
I also feel for you because like others, my husband has type I diabetes. He was a late onset, at 30 years old. I always said he was the healthiest person I know, and in many ways I still say that. But considering he maintains super tight control of his blood sugars and he still has had some loss of sensation in his foot in less than 6 years, it's very scary. I'll keep you and your family in my prayers.
Take care,
gg
Posted by Karen_kay on March 10, 2004, at 6:38:30
In reply to My family is driving me crazy., posted by Dinah on March 8, 2004, at 17:34:19
Dinah, I can't say anything that hasn't already been said. Except perhaps you could take a vacation from everything and higher someone to help with your father in your abscence? Ok, so the vacation won't work... But some people are stubborn because they are scared. just giving him a phone call every day to check up on him may help. And the suggestion already stated, try to see if you can get someone in there to help him, whether he likes it or not.
And as for you young lady, you take care of yourself in the process. (((Dinah))) Keep close tabs on Big, just in case... Take care of you, ok?
Posted by Dinah on March 10, 2004, at 8:09:30
In reply to Just remember to take care of yourself (nm) » Dinah, posted by Racer on March 9, 2004, at 23:58:44
I wish I thought the boundaries were going to work. I came home yesterday and ate myself into sugar sleep, then was awoken this morning by a call from my mom.
Don't know what I'm going to do.
Posted by Karen_kay on March 10, 2004, at 8:23:06
In reply to Re: Just remember to take care of yourself, posted by Dinah on March 10, 2004, at 8:09:30
Dinah,
First of all, sugar isn't good for you and you know it... Why not try distracting yourself with something else. Or if that fails, take your (Risperdal is it??).... Listen, you need to be around for yorself... First and foremost. If your mom calls and you can't handle talking to her, then don't until you are ready. That's not being selfish. That's taking care of you! And you are just as important as everyone else in this world... Actually, I'd say you are as important as I am, and that's saying a lot....
Posted by Dinah on March 10, 2004, at 8:44:25
In reply to Re: Just remember to take care of yourself » Dinah, posted by Karen_kay on March 10, 2004, at 8:23:06
I'm positive I told you this already, or posted it maybe, so forgive the repetition. But it just hit me that this is going to be bigger than I thought. My mother always comes home from these sugeries to a wheelchair. She's forgotten that, but I haven't. And there are whole areas of the house, necessary areas, that you can't get to in a wheelchair because of the newspaper and stuff stacked everywhere with only narrow paths between.
Only the areas my dad usually travels are accessible. Plus, they really need a maid. The place isn't fit for my mother's foot to come home to. But my dad won't let anyone in because of the hoarding.
Then of course, someone is going to have to run errands for them etc. until my mom's foot heals.
I'm just not the caretaking sort. Not without klonopin and lots of white bread and pasta, peanut butter and pudding. I feel guilty about it, but there it is.
It's amazing how small doses of my family have such a huge effect on me.
I know there are tons of sensible rational solutions, but faced with my parents I just can't insist on them.
Harry and I want to run away.
But I'd better go get dressed and go to work. I'm another five hours behind now.
I'm just not sure I'm going to make it through this ok, you know? And I think that's so stupid of me. They're just parents. They took care of me growing up. I keep trying and trying not to think about it too much. Because really, is it so awful?
Posted by fallsfall on March 10, 2004, at 9:25:44
In reply to Re: Just remember to take care of yourself » Karen_kay, posted by Dinah on March 10, 2004, at 8:44:25
I can relate to the hoarding. My dad has stacks of old magazines everywhere. My mother couldn't cook Thanksgiving dinner at her house because he wouldn't clean his junk off the table.
Maybe this would be an "opportunity" in the hoarding department. Do they have a room that isn't used? Could someone (preferably not you!) get some packing boxes and carefully put the stacks that are in the way into boxes. Label them carefully. And stack them in the unused room? This way you aren't throwing them out, but you are getting them out of the way.
One trick I used to use when I was working was my "trash pile". Instead of throwing papers away in the wastebasket (Oh, no!! I might need it sometime again!!!), I stacked them on a shelf in my bookcase. And I DID go back to that stack on a regular basis and retrieve stuff... But when the stack was so tall that I couldn't put anything else on it, then I would throw away the BOTTOM HALF. I figured that if it had remained in the pile for long enough to get to the bottom half, that I really wasn't likely to need it.
Maybe you would need to save the top 1/4 (or whatever) of the piles in a more accessible place, in case they wanted to get at that stuff. Could you sell them on the box idea by pointing out that it will PROTECT the stuff?
No, I haven't done this with my parents. My sister had a business for a while where she was an "organizer". She set up office procedures, but also worked with individuals on their home "stuff". I know that she has been trying to work with my dad. Their house is big enough so that you can still move around, so it doesn't seem to be a necessity for my dad.
Posted by Dinah on March 10, 2004, at 9:45:56
In reply to Re: Just remember to take care of yourself » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on March 10, 2004, at 9:25:44
lol. I'm afraid there are no unused rooms. My mother is sleeping in my old room, and there's just the bed (and stuff is actually piled on the bed too) and a narrow pathway around it. And the hygiene is awful. (I hope the dept of health isn't reading this.) She's got three little dogs in there and doesn't clean up very well. As I drove her to the hospital the scent of her room clung to her feet. My brother lives with them when he's in town and has to sleep on the den sofa because his room is inaccessible. My father's room and bath is ok, because he needs to move around. Except for the closet which is piled high. The front half of the den is ok. My dad can go there. The back half has stacks of stuff, bookshelves, and a christmas tree from three or four years ago. To let their big dog out you have to get to that part, and the stacks of newspapers have blocked off wheelchair access. The hall to my mother's and brother's room is half filled with newspaper stacks, leaving only the other half to walk through. Don't even ask me about that bathroom. I make sure everyone in the house goes potty before visiting because I'd rather use the gas station bathroom. The utility room has only space in front of washer and dryer. Most of the kitchen is ok. The living dining room is stacked floor to ceiling so that the doors open only with difficulty, and you can only look across the sea of stuff, not actually wade into it.
It's gotten so much worse since I've lived there. And I lived there for thirty years. I don't know how I stood it. There are roaches everywhere, and I'm pretty sure there are mice in the shut off rooms. I try not to let my son eat anything that comes from there.
I hate to say it, but my parents disgust me. I hate that about myself. I love them, I guess, although I emotionally divorced my mom for self preservation. I know the enormous debt of gratitude I owe them. But it's soooo hard to be around them.
It's not just the house. My mom is a right wing conspiracy theorist and a world class drama queen. It's hard to get a straight story from her. My dad yells constantly and threatens to kill everybody (but doesn't have a gun, so don't worry.) He is constantly telling my brother and mother how totally useless they are and how much he hates them. By contrast I'm treated well by him.
I have this picture of me in a few weeks, with the men from the hospital coming to take me away, and me on the floor blithering "Don't answer the phone! Don't answer the phone! They'll get you!"
I don't take pressure very well still, obviously. I guess my ego strength is still pretty low. Wonder if there's a DSM IV diagnosis for that.
Posted by fallsfall on March 10, 2004, at 10:07:35
In reply to Re: Just remember to take care of yourself » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on March 10, 2004, at 9:45:56
I wonder how common this problem is... There was a woman in one of my therapy groups who was trying to address her hoarding problem - her house sounded like it looked a lot like your parents'. My parents have a pretty big house, but given time, my dad will get there, too.
It is pretty scary from a health standpoint to see the "conditions" some people live in. You have to let them live their own lives and make their own decisions, but at some point...
I'll ask my sister if she has any good ideas for you.
Take a couple of deep breaths, Dinah. And keep reminding them of your boundaries (You can go over to see your dad, but only once a day. You can arrange for others to help.) Can your mother figure out what to do with the clutter? She is the one who will be effected by it. Will she feel well enough to think about it while she is in the hospital? Remind her that she won't be able to get to her bed. Which parent (or, heaven forbid, is it both?) is the hoarder?
Schedule (and limit) "parents" time in your day - when you go to see your dad, and when you will "worry" about them, and make phonecalls and run errands etc. Bury it during the rest of your day. I don't know, would that work?
With compassion,
Falls
Posted by fallsfall on March 10, 2004, at 10:25:27
In reply to Re: Just remember to take care of yourself » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on March 10, 2004, at 9:45:56
If they are able financially, you could rent a storage bin and put the stuff in there. When they haven't needed it for 5 years, then maybe your mom would let it go.
They keep newspapers on microfiche - could you at throw out (or box up) the newspapers? (This wouldn't sway my dad, he believes that HIS copies of PC Week from 8 years ago are "valuable") Maybe if the newspapers were gone the rest of the stuff would be managable in volume. Hmmm - the group member wanted to go through all her old newpapers and clip things out... Still... might be worth asking...
Posted by fallsfall on March 10, 2004, at 14:34:48
In reply to Re: Just remember to take care of yourself » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on March 10, 2004, at 9:45:56
Dinah,
This is my sister's response - sorry, it seems that her magic wand is broken, too:
Organizers can be found at www.napo.net. There are lots of really good people out there to help.
But, you know the answer to this. You can't make someone else change. Eventually the situation may become unbearable and they decide to, and even then it's difficult. Or, it becomes a safety/health issue and legal steps are taken, which can damage relationships.
Framing it in terms of what your friend needs is better than trying to tell the parents what would be best for them (no matter how true it is). Your friend can decide on her boundaries and stick to them, with support from you and others that she's entitled to do that.
We aren't far away from this ourselves, as I'm sure you're aware.
The 81-yr-old man I drive to church had his license revoked by the police chief, and he's mad at him. Certainly his daughter, a state cop, asked the chief to do it. Unfortunately, it's not so simple in matters of household clutter. There is no cop to pull someone's license to subscribe to the newspaper.
Diagramming this like a computer program might help. Break it down into a series of binary decisions (for your friend, not the parents). If she can be confident about each binary choice, she'll have a map to follow, and it may give her the courage she will need if she gets to the point where she really does have to call the health department (or it might be easier to call the fire department, if they are blocking their egresses).
Posted by All Done on March 10, 2004, at 14:50:33
In reply to Re: Just remember to take care of yourself » Karen_kay, posted by Dinah on March 10, 2004, at 8:44:25
> It's amazing how small doses of my family have such a huge effect on me.
(((((Dinah))))),My heart is just aching for you.
Just the other day I burst into tears because I'm planning a family dinner for next week where I'll see my mom yet she wanted to know if she could see me this week as well and perhaps over the weekend. (Give her an inch and she takes a road trip.) I told her I was busy and then cried on my husband's shoulder about it.
I struggle every day between not wanting my mom to be so dependent on me and loving her. I struggle a lot between being so mad at her I could cry and loving her. I struggle sometimes between thinking I hate her and loving her.
The boundaries I was forced to put in place six months ago have been a godsend for me. Now, I am the one keeping them in place. There are times like the other day when it's difficult, but in the end, I have to to protect my mental health.
I wish I had some practical advice for you. Here's a little one - can you turn off the ringers on your phones during the times you haven't, as I think falls suggested, allocated to family stuff?
Give Harry a big hug for me. He's such a good boy getting along with your mom's dog!
Take care,
All Done
Posted by Penny on March 10, 2004, at 15:43:24
In reply to Re: Just remember to take care of yourself » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on March 10, 2004, at 9:45:56
Dinah,
Sorry I haven't been posting often, but just wanted you to know that I'm thinking about you and sending you positive vibes...
I so often lately feel I am at a loss for helpful words or advice - I'm glad others on the board don't seem to be! But I totally second (or third, or whatever) the sentiment to 'take care of yourself'. I can only imagine what this is like for you.
Glad to hear, though, that Harry is getting along with your mom's dog. At least you can perhaps get some enjoyment out of having another loving hound around. They always make me feel *a little* better anyway.
((((Dinah))))
I hope things improve with all of this soon.
P
Posted by Karen_kay on March 10, 2004, at 16:07:17
In reply to Re: Just remember to take care of yourself » Karen_kay, posted by Dinah on March 10, 2004, at 8:44:25
Dinah,
Now I'm going to reveal the cold side of Karen, the side you've yet to see. This is how I feel about my mom and worrying about her...I used to worry myself sick about her and what she was going to do. Then I realized, "Hey, wait! She's an adult! And if she's not willing to accept any advice I offer, then I can't make her. But, I can choose not to worry about her, as worrying about her only affects me. It doesn't help me or her in the slightest." ANd you know what, I honestly don't worry about her anymore. I finally realized that you can help and help but if the other person isn't willing to accept that help or advice, then there isn't anything you can do. I honestly don't know how I came to this conclusion and finally stopped worrying about her, but I did. And my life is about 75% less stressed. The only person that you are responsible for in this world Dinah is you. So, if your dad doesn't take you up on the offer, then that's his loss. And if he calls you to complain, don't answer the phone. Lord knows that you have enough going on in your life that you can't handle even more stress.
You can't control how others choose to accept help, you can only control the fact that you offer. And you are very gracious to offer your dad the help you did. Now, if he isn't gracious enough to take you up on that offer, then he is the one missing out. But, you DID EVERYTHING you possibly could to help your parents int his situation. I hope that when I'm older I have a daughter just like you. I only hope that I'm not too stubborn to appreciate her. Take care of you and Harry. That's all you can control hun. (And don't you dare run away young lady, as I've missed enough class the way it is. I can't imagine how much I'd have to miss to go looking for you. Crap, I don't even know where you live or your name. Someone else would have to come searching for me as well and that would jsut cause a big old mess....)
Posted by Dinah on March 10, 2004, at 19:44:45
In reply to My family is driving me crazy., posted by Dinah on March 8, 2004, at 17:34:19
Six phone calls from my mother (so far). One before I was up. Several from my father. Plus he knocked the phone off the hook for hours.
Then he fell out of bed. He says it took him half an hour to get up and he's going to tie a rope to the bed to make it easier. I told him he needed a sitter. He said if I hired one, he'd kill her.
My mother asked me if I had checked the bed rail when I visited, because he said he knocked it loose. Well, no. First of all, no one had told me that. And second when I arrived at the time I said I would be there, my father was starkers. He was sitting crosslegged and I didn't see anything to embarass me, but I wasn't sticking around.
In her latest phone call my mother told me my father says he woke up with a fever and hasn't been taking his pills. And did I count his pills when I was there? Well, no. No one told me to.
It's gonna be a fun few weeks.
Posted by All Done on March 10, 2004, at 23:34:11
In reply to Day One, posted by Dinah on March 10, 2004, at 19:44:45
Dinah,
I'm sorry it was such a terrible Day One. I don't really know what to say, so I'm just going to keep giving you hugs until you run from me screaming. (Even then, I will probably have to chase you.)
(((((Dinah)))))
All Done
Posted by Dinah on March 11, 2004, at 9:04:24
In reply to Re: Just remember to take care of yourself » Dinah, posted by All Done on March 10, 2004, at 14:50:33
Thanks, All Done. I'm sorry to hear you're going through that with your Mom. When I first got married, after living with my parents for thirty years, it was really tough to draw boundaries to suit my husband and I. It took me a long time and some hard feelings, but for the most part I did it.
I've always heard, and always believed, that the debt we owe our parents is repaid by being a good parent in turn. You keep those boundaries where you need them. Your mom will get accustomed to them. It took mine longer than six months, I think.
Posted by Dinah on March 11, 2004, at 9:10:09
In reply to Re: (((((Dinah))))) » Dinah, posted by Penny on March 10, 2004, at 15:43:24
Thanks Penny. I'm worried about the little girl. Years ago she used to sleep on my head. My mother doesn't let the dogs on her bed, and now she gets anxious and jumps off if I try to put her on. Harry's being a real gentleman. He apparently senses no threat from such a dainty gentle soul.
She's staked out the master bath as her area and doesn't leave it. I had to put down food and water, and am having to pick up after her in there too. I suppose I just as well put down paper. It's not that she can't find her way around. If I bring her somewhere else in the house, she finds her way back to the bathroom in no time at all.
I guess I need to accept that that's where she feels safest. I'm worried about her. She's shaking all the time and woke us up in the middlle of the night to a chorus of howls. She's eating and drinking all right though, so I guess she'll be ok.
Posted by Dinah on March 11, 2004, at 9:14:41
In reply to About parents » Dinah, posted by Karen_kay on March 10, 2004, at 16:07:17
I don't think it's cold at all, Karen. We do what we have to do when we have difficult parents. I looked after my Dad very well from my early twenties to my early thirties. He's like a little kid, and it's really easy to make him happy. And really easy to make him mad. When my son was born, I realized that I had a real little kid now, and had to take care of him, not my Dad. I think my Dad's still mad about that, but that's life.
Posted by Dinah on March 11, 2004, at 9:25:13
In reply to Re: Hoarding » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on March 10, 2004, at 10:07:35
Your sister sounds as practical as you are, Fallsfall. I think I'd like her.
My therapist thinks the hoarding is a sign of OCD in my Mom, but I think it's a sign of Oppositional Defiant Disorder. It's kind of a funny story.
My mother's parents were poor farmers, so they tended to keep anything that may someday be useful. They had a junk heap outside and stuff piled inside. So my mother grew up with it. But she kept it reasonably sane for most of my life. In other words, she might keep the food section of every paper, never mind that she didn't cook, but she didn't keep the whole paper.
Then came Reagan's reelection campaign. She became certain that the papers were biased against him and decided to cut out all the articles that showed bias. So for the months of the campaign, she started keeping every section of the newspaper that might contain political news, because she never got the chance to read them.
Then my father and I made our fatal tactical error. At the end of the campaign, we told my mother she could stop saving the paper and throw out the ones she had saved. They were starting to pile up. Now, no one tells my mother what to do. She has the dubious distinction of being forced into early retirement because she was about to be fired as a union protected teacher. Nothing to do with teaching, but because no administrator could tell her what to do. We waved a red cloth to a bull, and she responded by keeping every section of every newspaper from that day to this. And any objection on account of health or safety or aesthetics or practicality is seen as an attempt by us to control her. She's also smart enough that reverse psychology doesn't work.
It's really kind of amusing if it were a make believe character. Less amusing in an elderly lady with a husband in a wheelchair with limited mobility and mice and roaches.
Posted by Karen_kay on March 11, 2004, at 9:41:26
In reply to Re: About parents » Karen_kay, posted by Dinah on March 11, 2004, at 9:14:41
((((Dinah)))) I just realized I forgot to give you a hug. I'm sorry. It's tough with parents, especially when we aren't feeling well. My mother is just as stubborn as your father. Only she refuses any type of help from me at all. And she never calls me, so it's up to me to call her to keep in touch. And when I do call, I only hear things like, "You've been in school long enough to be a doctor." Maybe she doesn't realize that I've been sitting out? Or that I graduated, because she didn't come. And it will be sad when I graduate again and she's not there, but my boyfriend's parents and relatives are. But, I remember that in spite of the fact I have an unsupportive mother, I have the MOST supportive sisters in the world. So, I love my mother dearly for giving birth to not only me, but also 2 of the greatest, most beautiful women in the world. And how could I have any hard feelings towards her for that great feat? But, she has her own life and her own problems that she'll eventually have to face. And she always offers to help me financially, though I won't allow her. I'd rather have emotional support than financial. But, on the bright side, she has gotten a lot better in the past few years. Honestly, she has. So, maybe we're all changing? (Sorry, I have to gripe every once in a while..)
But....You have to do what can help keep your sanity. And if that means not answering the phone, or taking it off the hook, then do it. Or, if it means hiring someone to help your father and escorting them every morning on your way to work so your parents won't call you for every small issue, then do that. Or, if it means giving in to their demands, do that. But, you know what's best for you and Your household. And don't feel bad for a second for doing what you have to do to get by.
You're holding up so well right now and I'm so very proud of you Dinah. It's tough when there's a crisis in the family, as it not only affects the ones involed, it also affects everyone in the family. But, remember it isn't your responsibility to make your dad get help if he doesn't accept it from you. You're only human and cn only do so much hun. And thus far, you seem to be superwoman with everything you have on your plate and the way you are handling it. You're doing such a WONDERFUL job, and I can't honestly tell you how very thrilled I am that you are doing so well right now. You hang in there. And don't worry about taking care of anyone but you, Harry and your son right now. You're such a beautiful and caring woman Dinah! And I'm so proud of you.
Posted by Dinah on March 11, 2004, at 10:04:53
In reply to Re: About parents » Dinah, posted by Karen_kay on March 11, 2004, at 9:41:26
I'm sorry your Mom isn't well enough to offer the emotional support you need. But I agree with you. The world owes her a debt of gratitude for producing you and your sisters.
And in the meantime, you've found other great sources of support, Babble included. :)
And I think that overnight I have come up with a plan.
Posted by Dinah on March 11, 2004, at 10:11:55
In reply to Re: About parents » Karen_kay, posted by Dinah on March 11, 2004, at 10:04:53
Each morning I'll make a bet with myself about how many times my mother will call. If I guess correctly, I can treat myself to something (not food, I promise). And I'll set the number high, like eight or ten (higher if that doesn't work) so that I can see each call as a step along the path to my treat.
And since I have some basic understanding of what drives my father, I think I'll make a preemptive strike. I'm guessing he'll have fewer crises if he isn't feeling abandoned. So I'll call, I'll have my cousin call, and I'll round up what acquaintances I can. I'll also look into one of those medic alert thingies so that I don't have to worry as much if he doesn't answer the phone.
I'm afraid I have to accept that I'm not going to be able to draw the boundaries as strictly as I would like. I would just feel too horrible if something happened to my father. I really do love him. I guess work will have to suffer. I'm not sure how that will work out, because I have to keep up my hours at work or I lose my medical reimbursement for my therapist. But I'll work it out somehow. I may be around here less.
But I guess I need to accept my own limitations (in not being able to draw boundaries) as I accept the limitations of others.
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