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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Penny on October 17, 2003, at 8:24:11
In reply to Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Dinah on October 17, 2003, at 8:17:13
My theory - we really only live for others. At least when we're feeling bad. We're not *supposed* to want to live for others, but when we don't want to live for ourselves, then other people are what keep us going...
And, I guess, for me, my dogs...
But really, I don't know why we're supposed to want to live.
Though I could give you PLENTY of reasons why YOU are valuable. Do I need to this morning?
P
Posted by Emme on October 17, 2003, at 8:55:10
In reply to Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Dinah on October 17, 2003, at 8:17:13
Dinah,
I wonder that myslef all the time. I often crave a really tangible way of knowing my life matters and that therefore I should live. My therapist tries to tell me that my life helps other people in ways I am not even aware of. I hope you're fully aware that you sure do make this forum a better place for a whole bunch of people. You've been helpful to me when I've been in a state of extreme distress. You're obviously kind and smart, so I expect you are very important to your friends and family. I think the reasons for living seem distant sometimes because the pain of our illnesses overtakes everything.
((Dinah))
Emme
Posted by Susan J on October 17, 2003, at 9:03:14
In reply to Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Dinah on October 17, 2003, at 8:17:13
Oh, Dinah,
Please don't be sad. :-(
I'm at a loss as to why we are supposed to *want* to live, although I can think of tons of reasons why we *should* live. Not always the same thing. That *want* though, really does get buried often when you feel depressed.
Perhaps we should *want* to live through the pain in order to get out to the other side. I wrote a poem recently (a bad one) about how depression was never going to beat me. I can get really stubborn about people (or things) trying to bring me down. You know, how dare they? Or how dare it (depression)? If you get through the rough spots, you beat depression. At least temporarily, but that's another post. And the more we can beat it, even for a minute here and there, the less powerful it is over us, over anyone.
There *will* be brighter days.....And *you* do add a lot to this board, and have added a lot to *my* life. You *do* matter. :-)
Susan
Posted by cubic_me on October 17, 2003, at 9:09:45
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live? » Dinah, posted by Susan J on October 17, 2003, at 9:03:14
I've pondered this one before too. And why is it that we want others to live but dont want to ourselves?
Dinah - other people see the point in carrying on, so there must be a point out there, we just havent discovered it yet.
_me
Posted by HannahW on October 17, 2003, at 9:10:38
In reply to Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Dinah on October 17, 2003, at 8:17:13
Dear Dinah--
Are you distinguishing between not wanting to live and wanting to die? Please tell me you don't want to die.
Wanting to live...I guess for me it's hope. Hope for the future, that someday I'm going to get my life sorted out and have deep, satisfying relationships, that someday I'm going to have good sex again (!), that someday I'll travel...
I've been putting off too many things I want to do for that someday. I need to start enjoying my life more now. I read somewhere that not only do we have to work on not being depressed, but we also have to work on being happy. In other words, we take our meds, go to therapy, and do all that hard work, but then we also get pedicures, feed the ducks, go skydiving, or whatever makes us happy.
Do you know why you're feeling especially down? It seems like it's lasted a while. Do you need a med adjustment?
Take good care of yourself.
H
Posted by fallsfall on October 17, 2003, at 9:24:37
In reply to Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Dinah on October 17, 2003, at 8:17:13
Dinah,
YOU *need* to live because I need you. Please.
Maybe sometimes you can find pleasure in helping, and that pleasure is worth living for. Isn't that "want"?
I don't *want* to live for me. But I have made it through the hardest times by *wanting* to be around to help my daughter or my friends.
Are you asking what the purpose of life is? I don't know - but at one point I thought life was fun (and I guess I haven't totally given up on thinking that again).
(((((((Dinah)))))))
Posted by justyourlaugh on October 17, 2003, at 10:08:51
In reply to Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Dinah on October 17, 2003, at 8:17:13
dinah,,
there must be something more than,,not wanting to step infront of a truck?
i see it as "why i dont want to die"
that list comes out larger...
j
Posted by Dinah on October 17, 2003, at 10:13:45
In reply to Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Dinah on October 17, 2003, at 8:17:13
Thanks everyone. It's nice to know that I am making a difference to someone.
I'm not thinking of killing myself, although if it was possible to will yourself to die I would. Can't be done though. Tried for over a year twice.
But there is a gaping hole inside, that my little dog so long ago could fill, and Harry fills a lot. And who'll fill it now? I feel empty already. I find myself searching the pets available ads as though you can just find a pet like that to fill the hole.......
And Harry is doing ok.
Posted by madwand on October 17, 2003, at 10:16:50
In reply to Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Dinah on October 17, 2003, at 8:17:13
Dinah,
For me, the answer is different at different times. When I am in a good space the question doesn't even really come up -- why do I need a "reason" to live when I am enjoying it.
When I am in a bad space I have a number of "tricks" (i.e. these do not represent actual philosophical beliefs, but I can pretend to believe them for short periods of time). One is that the universe "doesn't care" and that therefore I am going to live as a kind of "f*** you". Sort of an existential hero carving meaning out of a meaningless world through his action and his will. Or perhaps what Castenada referred to as "controlled folly".
As perhaps a more-cheery variant on the above, I remember that, as a child of the Supreme Being,
I have a form of that Being's creative power and that I can *create* meaning by choosing it and affirming it (rather than trying to "find" it).Michael
Posted by Susan J on October 17, 2003, at 13:27:03
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Dinah on October 17, 2003, at 10:13:45
> I'm not thinking of killing myself, although if it was possible to will yourself to die I would. Can't be done though. Tried for over a year twice.
<<Been there. Done that. I'm so sorry you feel so badly right now. :-(
> But there is a gaping hole inside, that my little dog so long ago could fill, and Harry fills a lot. And who'll fill it now? I feel empty already.
<<Cliche I know, but forcing myself to love *me* was the only thing that actually kept that hole from getting too big. It's the hardest thing I've ever done, and I haven't done it perfectly.
But loving others, including pets, always helps. It's just if we love others so much and not ourselves, and the others leave us or let us down, we have nothing left to lean on.> And Harry is doing ok.
<<Way to go, Harry!Hang in there, Dinah. You're in my thoughts.
Susan
Posted by Tabitha on October 17, 2003, at 17:36:10
In reply to Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Dinah on October 17, 2003, at 8:17:13
the only time life makes sense to me is when there's some pleasure in it. Then it's self-sustaining. When pleasure goes-- it's just so hard to find some intellectual meaning, so I don't try-- I wait for improvement, or crank up the meds. Is there anything little Dinah would enjoy right now?
Posted by Dinah on October 17, 2003, at 17:53:47
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Tabitha on October 17, 2003, at 17:36:10
I can't think of a darn thing. Even my sex drive is kaput. :( My major mood indicator. (More than you wanted to know, eh?)
Might be time to crank up the meds, but I have to wait a while yet. My moods usually swing so quickly that by the times the meds get a chance to work, the mood is past anyway. Besides, I *hate* antidepressants with a passion. :(
Posted by Dinah on October 17, 2003, at 17:58:28
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live? » Dinah, posted by Susan J on October 17, 2003, at 13:27:03
Funny you should say that Susan. That's my therapist's guess on what fills the hole. The obvious answer would be being loved, but he thinks it's more loving than being loved.
I've never thought I had any particular problem in loving myself. In fact those close to me might say I have a real talent for self esteem. :P But I don't know. Maybe there is a difference.
My therapist kept trying to tell me today that my dogs didn't have the power to fill that hole. That it was me doing it, perhaps in interaction with them. I, of course, think he's completely wrong. I'm going to bring a video next time so that he can see the truth.
Posted by Ilene on October 17, 2003, at 18:55:58
In reply to Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Dinah on October 17, 2003, at 8:17:13
I don't know. I have been in physical, mental, and psychic pain for about a week. It's gotten only marginally better. I've been able to do only the barest minimum, and I have two kids. Everything hurts, I don't want to move, I'm exhausted, I haven't been eating, I can't concentrate, I am depressed, anxious, and guilty. I don't enjoy anything. I have no reason to think things will get better--they've been getting worse for some time.
Ilene
Yes, I saw my doctor and my pdoc.
Posted by deirdrehbrt on October 17, 2003, at 21:50:47
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Ilene on October 17, 2003, at 18:55:58
It's quite likely that we are supposed to live because Mr. Darwin tells us that the world will go nowhere if we don't. Maybe that's why I want to live for my kids. It's certainly not because I have any desire to continue my life for myself.
On my own, if there were no-one else around, I can without reservation say that I would be history. My kids are most important. My one good friend is terribly important. My cat is important. Most everyone around me is important. At one time, my marriage was important, but that no longer exists.
Maybe we're supposed to want to live because all of those things make us feel good, because they're important, and we have the potential to become healthy and to honestly feel all of it. Somehow, Genesis, and God's "And behold it was good" has never really done it for me. I'm hoping too that it might someday.
Maybe what we're really here for is Babble. Perhaps Babble is the reason we're supposed to want to live.
Dee. :-)
Posted by Ilene on October 17, 2003, at 22:40:43
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by deirdrehbrt on October 17, 2003, at 21:50:47
> It's quite likely that we are supposed to live because Mr. Darwin tells us that the world will go nowhere if we don't. Maybe that's why I want to live for my kids. It's certainly not because I have any desire to continue my life for myself.
DNA's the general reason. Yes, I will be more successful if I pass on my genes.
On personal level, I feel that life has become a contest of endurance.
Ilene
Posted by Liligoth on October 18, 2003, at 6:38:20
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Ilene on October 17, 2003, at 18:55:58
Dinah Im so sorry you are feeling bad now. I have no words of wisdom for you. Maybe knowing that it's because you do make a difference
Posted by Dinah on October 18, 2003, at 9:13:07
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by deirdrehbrt on October 17, 2003, at 21:50:47
My kid. That's the main reason it would matter if I killed myself. Yet sometimes I wonder if I'm really doing him a favor, if he might not be better off without me.
I have a few worst case scenarios in my mind, where all the shoulds won't outweigh the fear. My husband, admittedly unwittingly, threatened me with one of them last night. He talked about how we might have to leave the city and my family and more importantly his family and my therapist, in order for him to get a decent job. This was based on nothing, as far as I can tell. His job isn't in any danger, not even by rumor, and I can't help thinking that it had something to do with the fact that he was unhappy with something I did (which he was) and wanted to scare me. I didn't, of course, tell him what my response to that would be. I'd not do that. But needless to say, I feel farther in the hole today and slipping rapidly.
Posted by madwand on October 18, 2003, at 9:27:36
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Dinah on October 18, 2003, at 9:13:07
Dinah,
My apologies if my earlier post did not acknowledge your pain -- I really didn't realize what kind of space you are in (but I do stand by the part about the Supreme Being, which contrary to the phrasing of my note *is* part of what I believe).
The only thing I can add at this point is about what you said about the thoughts that your kid "would be better off". While I have never felt suicidal per se (not quite sure why that is), I am familiar with that space of "the people in my life would be better off if I weren't there".
That is a hard one to beat -- I still struggle with it. The thing to remember is that, like alcoholism, depression is a disease that lies to us. A thought. When you are in that state -- try "personifying" your depression and talking to it. Tell it you know it is lying, and perhaps even say that if it will tell you the *truth* you would be willing to listen.
Hang in there -- a lot of people are behind you!Michael
Posted by Emme on October 18, 2003, at 9:29:42
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Dinah on October 18, 2003, at 9:13:07
Oh Dinah,
I'm so sorry you are sliding down into the abyss. It feels so isolating. You wouldn't be alone down there. I hope we can all pull each other out. Why do you sometimes think your son would be better off without you? With such a smart, kind mother, he'd surely be worse off.
I hope your husband comes to understand that what he did was not kind and didn't help your situation. Are you able to at least let him know that what he said was upsetting to you?
I hope you have a better day.
(((Dinah)))
Emme
> My kid. That's the main reason it would matter if I killed myself. Yet sometimes I wonder if I'm really doing him a favor, if he might not be better off without me.
>
> I have a few worst case scenarios in my mind, where all the shoulds won't outweigh the fear. My husband, admittedly unwittingly, threatened me with one of them last night. He talked about how we might have to leave the city and my family and more importantly his family and my therapist, in order for him to get a decent job. This was based on nothing, as far as I can tell. His job isn't in any danger, not even by rumor, and I can't help thinking that it had something to do with the fact that he was unhappy with something I did (which he was) and wanted to scare me. I didn't, of course, tell him what my response to that would be. I'd not do that. But needless to say, I feel farther in the hole today and slipping rapidly.
Posted by Susan J on October 18, 2003, at 10:01:20
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live? » Susan J, posted by Dinah on October 17, 2003, at 17:58:28
Dinah,
>>I've never thought I had any particular problem in loving myself. In fact those close to me might say I have a real talent for self esteem. :P
<<Hey, can you teach me some of that?? :-)>>My therapist kept trying to tell me today that my dogs didn't have the power to fill that hole. That it was me doing it, perhaps in interaction with them. I, of course, think he's completely wrong. I'm going to bring a video next time so that he can see the truth.
<<Ya know, I can think of a lot worse types of coping mechanisms than spreading love to puppies....they need it, it's good for you. All sounds good to me. :-)
Posted by Dinah on October 18, 2003, at 11:43:15
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live? » Dinah, posted by madwand on October 18, 2003, at 9:27:36
Ach, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to make it sound that bad. He knew that the things that he were saying were upsetting to me, but he didn't know (and won't know) that I don't think I could live with those changes. But it's just talk, and part of why I was angry is that it's not likely to come about so I feel like he's just trying to punish me. But that's what my dad did all the time, so maybe I'm blaming my husband for something he didn't mean to do.
And yes, I suppose I know my son wouldn't be better off if I killed myself. I don't suppose any child would be, no matter what kind of parent. And he does love me and seems to like me fine as a mom. I guess it's just the negative stuff that comes with the down phases.
It'll pass. It always does.
Again, sorry for making it sound so morbid. :(
Posted by fallsfall on October 18, 2003, at 14:58:49
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Dinah on October 18, 2003, at 11:43:15
If you can't be morbid here, where can you be morbid?
I know how empty you can feel. For me, it is agony. Trying to find something to fill the space. But you HAVE found things that do fill the space, and you will again in the future. Just hold on, and keep reaching out.
Posted by kara lynne on October 18, 2003, at 15:00:50
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Dinah on October 18, 2003, at 11:43:15
For the child I don't have
For the coffee I can't drink
For the faith I can't find
To sleep too much
To laugh too little
To cry all night
To be
Orto be eeyore.
Didn't he have a good reason?
Posted by deirdrehbrt on October 18, 2003, at 16:33:55
In reply to Re: Why is it we're supposed to want to live?, posted by Dinah on October 18, 2003, at 11:43:15
Dinah,
Please let your husband know that you couldn't stand a move right now. Letting him make a decision that would destroy you, just because you don't want to hurt him, isn't fair to either of you. If he were to do such a thing, and then have you be miserable would fill him with regret.
You are such a wonderfull, kind, intelligent and caring woman. Your Son knows this without question; I believe your husband does too.
Please communicate your worries and pain. That's the easiest way to get rid of them.
Please take care.
Dee.
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