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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 5 of 5. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by fallsfall on May 28, 2003, at 22:20:21
I know that I judge myself - "I am good" (rarely), "I am bad". I also place much too much importance on what my therapist thinks of me. I read her body language and tone of voice to figure out what she is thinking. When I think that she is mad or unhappy or frustrated with me, then I feel that I am "bad". Being "bad" is one of the worst things I can be. If the badness is bad enough then I think that I shouldn't live.
Usually, I don't figure out that I think she is mad/unhappy/frustrated until I have left her office. At that point I have a long week ahead of me in total agony. Last week I explained to her how I had felt the whole week, and before I left she made it a point to tell me that she thought I was heading in the right direction. I replayed that sentance over and over last week, and I actually had a pretty good week.
This week I was able to figure out what was making me feel so sick during the session - I thought she was disappointed in me. I told her how I was feeling. She said that it wasn't about whether she was disappointed or not. She said that she was not judging me. But this didn't help me - I think that I don't know how to live without judging. I'm not a judgemental person, but I think that I make background judgements all the time.
The role where I am least judgemental is when I teach figure skating. I do accept each student where they are, and we work to make progress from there. And I'm more excited when one of the "less naturally gifted" students learn something than I am when someone tries it and gets it the first time. So I do a lot of the radical acceptance stuff, and I like almost all of my students. But I don't like the ones who repeatedly won't listen to me and keep doing it their wrong way. If they want to talk to me about the merits of different techniques, that's fine. But if they only have their own way, then I tend to give the other students my time. I also, internally, judge the overall technique and the raw talent of my students. That just helps me to know how to approach them. Usually, my favorite students are the one with terrible technique and no talent - they need me the most. So I do judge/categorize skaters - both technique and talent, and attitude and cooperation. The ones I particularly like I go out of my way to help - either telling them that they did well, or making sure they know where to get their skates sharpened, or checking the size of their skates. To me, that is a judgement of them.
This isn't a very different role than she plays with me. I don't see how it can be done without judgement.
Is is possible to not judge? How is it done?
Posted by Dinah on May 28, 2003, at 23:02:15
In reply to Judging, posted by fallsfall on May 28, 2003, at 22:20:21
> I know that I judge myself - "I am good" (rarely), "I am bad". I also place much too much importance on what my therapist thinks of me. I read her body language and tone of voice to figure out what she is thinking. When I think that she is mad or unhappy or frustrated with me, then I feel that I am "bad". Being "bad" is one of the worst things I can be. If the badness is bad enough then I think that I shouldn't live.
>Wow. I don't have much to offer you, because that's exactly how I think as well. I'm either a good girl (which I try very hard to be) or I'm a bad girl. And the idea of being a bad girl terrifies me to my marrow.
> This isn't a very different role than she plays with me. I don't see how it can be done without judgement.
>
> Is is possible to not judge? How is it done?This is such a coincidence. This very subject, more or less, came up with my therapist a couple of sessions ago. More along the lines of whether he disliked having me as a client. I told him there were some people at work that I was happy to hear from, and others that made my heart sink. And I hoped they didn't know the difference, so how would I know the difference with him? But I also told him that I realized that he did dislike me for the first several years of our treatment (although he claims I mistook frustration for dislike) and that I didn't think it mattered because he still behaved well. Maybe that's why I feel safe with him. Because he behaved well even though he disliked (or was frustrated by) me. I told him how much his very occasional (I can think of about two occasions) expressions of positive feelings for me meant, because he didn't "have" to say them.
So I think I understand what you mean. How would you be able to tell if she was frustrated with you, or was disappointed in you? They don't tell us those things (unless we ask straight out - or at least mine tells me when he's frustrated with me if I ask). And of course, whatever they say, it's hard to believe they are completely non-judgemental. But I do think they can be completely committed to helping you. And completely in your corner, wanting you to succeed.
And I suspect that nonjudgemental and accepting has a particular meaning in therapist speak. It can't possibly mean having no reactions that are less than positive. It must mean putting those reactions aside, or trying to understand the behavior and empathize with the reasons for it.
And it's impossible for you to be a "good" client every week. It's impossible for anyone. But that doesn't mean you're "bad". It just means you had an off week. Doesn't she have an off week from time to time? And don't you still value her anyway?
One of my therapist's main goals with me is for me to understand that we can get angry with each other, and still maintain a relationship. He teases me that he won't run screaming out of the room if I get angry. (Of course, he'll get angry back. People always want you to express anger, but never really at them.) And that even if he's angry (or frustrated, as he puts it) with me, we'll work through it. I understand in theory, but that doesn't stop the visceral terror when he's mad at (frustrated with) me. But at least I know when he is. Since helping me learn to deal with those feelings is a goal of his, he doesn't really try to hide his reactions anymore.
Do you think your recent history with her has something to do with your fears, in which case they would seem to be reasonable under the circumstances, and something you need to work on together. Or were they before then? In which case it's still something you can work on together.
With me it's one of my core problems, the need to be good. The need to have people not be angry with me. And it's a major focus of therapy. That no, I'm not always good, and yes, that's okay.
Sorry to ramble on so.
(By the way, I used to have those time released reactions to therapy. Exasperating isn't it?)
Posted by fallsfall on May 29, 2003, at 19:54:48
In reply to Re: Judging, posted by Dinah on May 28, 2003, at 23:02:15
Dinah,
Thank you for your response. I think that we do have some things in common, and that really is helpful.
> This is such a coincidence. This very subject, more or less, came up with my therapist a couple of sessions ago. More along the lines of whether he disliked having me as a client. I told him there were some people at work that I was happy to hear from, and others that made my heart sink. And I hoped they didn't know the difference, so how would I know the difference with him? But I also told him that I realized that he did dislike me for the first several years of our treatment (although he claims I mistook frustration for dislike) and that I didn't think it mattered because he still behaved well. Maybe that's why I feel safe with him. Because he behaved well even though he disliked (or was frustrated by) me. I told him how much his very occasional (I can think of about two occasions) expressions of positive feelings for me meant, because he didn't "have" to say them.
I think that she tries to "behave well". She says the right things. But I see other things in her body language - and that is what I base my assumptions on. I have been reading negative body language for almost a year and a half (ever since I crashed this time). Mostly there was boredom, and I could handle that, though I tended to become aggravated when I wasn't making any progress. But starting with the previous incident when I believed that she was angry (and she later agreed that she was), I see lots of negative things in her body language. For the first 7 years, I believed that she liked me. But now I can't say that as long as she says the right thing that all will be well. I can't ignore the body language. If I think she is negative to me I cannot cope.
>
> So I think I understand what you mean. How would you be able to tell if she was frustrated with you, or was disappointed in you? They don't tell us those things (unless we ask straight out - or at least mine tells me when he's frustrated with me if I ask). And of course, whatever they say, it's hard to believe they are completely non-judgemental. But I do think they can be completely committed to helping you. And completely in your corner, wanting you to succeed.
>Is she completely committed to helping me, and wanting me to succeed? She wants me to succeed. I do think that she is having trouble feeling invested in helping me.
> And I suspect that nonjudgemental and accepting has a particular meaning in therapist speak. It can't possibly mean having no reactions that are less than positive. It must mean putting those reactions aside, or trying to understand the behavior and empathize with the reasons for it.
It doesn't matter to me if she is putting the reactions aside and saying the right "therapist" thing. My self worth is currently controlled by her (this is what we are trying to change, but it isn't changed yet). So, whatever she feels professionally doesn't matter. If she is personally angry/frustrated/disappointed then I am "Bad" (with a capital B).
>
> And it's impossible for you to be a "good" client every week. It's impossible for anyone. But that doesn't mean you're "bad". It just means you had an off week. Doesn't she have an off week from time to time? And don't you still value her anyway?If she is angry, then I am "Bad" (as in evil).
If it was just once, then maybe. But I have been bad for a long time now.
>
> One of my therapist's main goals with me is for me to understand that we can get angry with each other, and still maintain a relationship. He teases me that he won't run screaming out of the room if I get angry. (Of course, he'll get angry back. People always want you to express anger, but never really at them.) And that even if he's angry (or frustrated, as he puts it) with me, we'll work through it. I understand in theory, but that doesn't stop the visceral terror when he's mad at (frustrated with) me. But at least I know when he is. Since helping me learn to deal with those feelings is a goal of his, he doesn't really try to hide his reactions anymore."visceral terror" - what a great phrase.
I wish I could be sure that I'll be there long enough to work out those feelings.
>
> Do you think your recent history with her has something to do with your fears, in which case they would seem to be reasonable under the circumstances, and something you need to work on together. Or were they before then? In which case it's still something you can work on together.No, it is just the last 3 months. I thought we were working on them together. Last week she was very careful to make sure that I was feeling OK. This week she very specifically refused to do that.
>
> With me it's one of my core problems, the need to be good. The need to have people not be angry with me. And it's a major focus of therapy. That no, I'm not always good, and yes, that's okay.
>
> Sorry to ramble on so.You ramble very nicely. Thank you.
>
> (By the way, I used to have those time released reactions to therapy. Exasperating isn't it?)
Posted by Dinah on May 29, 2003, at 20:31:51
In reply to Re: Judging » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on May 29, 2003, at 19:54:48
> No, it is just the last 3 months. I thought we were working on them together. Last week she was very careful to make sure that I was feeling OK. This week she very specifically refused to do that.
>
Ick. I hate that. It's such a typical therapist thing to do, so please don't take it personally. But I've seen that so many therapists do do that. They don't want to "gratify" the patient in any way. I imagine that that view does have its value in working on neuroses, but I wonder how much harm it does along the way. I wonder how many people never come to develop a trusting relationship with their therapist because they rigidly hold to those rules? Maybe it works best for those who have the least problems. My therapist isn't a great believer in the no gratification rule. His big thing is that in the therapy room we are two real people in a real, if limited, relationship. And that we can practice working things out there. So there are things that he says every week at the end of therapy because he knows they make it easier for me through the week. "Please call me if you need to. I mean it." If the session was a rough one and I ask if everything will be ok, he'll tell me it will be. If he's been angry during the session he assures me that it's not the end of our relationship, and we'll work through it. If he thinks I need something before I go, he'll do his best to provide it, while still being honest. We might discuss the needs in therapy, but he doesn't withhold gratifying them on principle. I don't know what I'll do if he ever has to terminate me. I think his approach is less than common.> If she is angry, then I am "Bad" (as in evil).
Ok, since I have that response too, I'll speak to you as one who understands. You know at a rational level that that isn't true. Or as my therapist would tell me: If she is angry then all it means is that she is angry. She is responsible for her own reaction. She could be angry for any number of her own reasons that have little or nothing to do with you. You are not responsible for her anger. You are not a bad girl just because she is angry. (I'll have to tell him that his constant repetitions have sunk in even if I have a hard time applying it to myself.) My therapist is right, Fallsfall. You are not bad, whether or not she is angry or frustrated or bored. It's a hard thing to accept on a deeper level isn't it? Especially when it's something we've believed since we were little. If mom or dad is angry, I must have done something wrong. And I have to be constantly alert to see if mom or dad is angry, because if they are, I have to do something so they won't be.
I'm sorry, Fallsfall, that you are feeling this way. And I hope that you are able to stay long enough to work through it with her. Or if not her, then with someone who understands the dynamics and is patient and sensitive to it.
Dinah
Posted by fallsfall on May 30, 2003, at 7:28:26
In reply to Re: Judging » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on May 29, 2003, at 20:31:51
Thanks, Dinah.
Your post made me cry. I printed it out for easy further reference.
This is the end of the thread.
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