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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by paula on July 12, 2001, at 0:38:38
Hi All,
I'm wondering how it's possible that so many depressed people manage to have romantic relationships at all. One of the things that I've *felt* like my recent diagnosis has explained is the fact that I simply can't trust anyone enough to get involved. I mean *at all.* It also takes me a while to make friends--but the few friends I do have are very close.
I guess I'm just curious about how "wierd" I am. In some ways I think I've handled my issues quite well in the last 20 (of my 30) years. But my, um, "love" life is a glaring exception. Does this have any resonance for anyone else? And for those who are in relationships (of any stripe), do you find that the relationship helps with the depression? It's always seemed to me like too much of a risk, but maybe I'm mistaken. (Wouldn't be the first time!!)
Paula
Posted by dreamer on July 12, 2001, at 1:08:52
In reply to speaking of love..., posted by paula on July 12, 2001, at 0:38:38
> Hi All,
>
> I'm wondering how it's possible that so many depressed people manage to have romantic relationships at all. One of the things that I've *felt* like my recent diagnosis has explained is the fact that I simply can't trust anyone enough to get involved. I mean *at all.* It also takes me a while to make friends--but the few friends I do have are very close.
>
> I guess I'm just curious about how "wierd" I am. In some ways I think I've handled my issues quite well in the last 20 (of my 30) years. But my, um, "love" life is a glaring exception. Does this have any resonance for anyone else? And for those who are in relationships (of any stripe), do you find that the relationship helps with the depression? It's always seemed to me like too much of a risk, but maybe I'm mistaken. (Wouldn't be the first time!!)
>
> PaulaYou aint weird I'm weirder than the average. Two plutontic friends and a pussycat. So many relationships[not that slapper's my middle name]
Had relationship for five years; always magical in the beggining, feel alive then boredom comes.
Trust no-one but try to keep an open mind then the door of love will stay ajar.I've yet to fall deep.
A wise-ity for the youth, although I'm a springing chicken, beware of the living together it doesn't work well for depressives. One day it's sugar in their tea the next it's salt.
Jump aboard the love train .
Posted by lissa on July 12, 2001, at 1:28:39
In reply to speaking of love..., posted by paula on July 12, 2001, at 0:38:38
Hi Benvenuto-Paula,
I was beginning to worry you'd left because you just weren't feeling benvenuto enough :]
lissa
Posted by Anna Laura on July 12, 2001, at 3:44:09
In reply to Re: speaking of love... » paula, posted by dreamer on July 12, 2001, at 1:08:52
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I'm wondering how it's possible that so many depressed people manage to have romantic relationships at all. One of the things that I've *felt* like my recent diagnosis has explained is the fact that I simply can't trust anyone enough to get involved. I mean *at all.* It also takes me a while to make friends--but the few friends I do have are very close.
> >
> > I guess I'm just curious about how "wierd" I am. In some ways I think I've handled my issues quite well in the last 20 (of my 30) years. But my, um, "love" life is a glaring exception. Does this have any resonance for anyone else? And for those who are in relationships (of any stripe), do you find that the relationship helps with the depression? It's always seemed to me like too much of a risk, but maybe I'm mistaken. (Wouldn't be the first time!!)
> >
> > Paula
>
> You aint weird I'm weirder than the average. Two plutontic friends and a pussycat. So many relationships[not that slapper's my middle name]
> Had relationship for five years; always magical in the beggining, feel alive then boredom comes.
> Trust no-one but try to keep an open mind then the door of love will stay ajar.I've yet to fall deep.
> A wise-ity for the youth, although I'm a springing chicken, beware of the living together it doesn't work well for depressives. One day it's sugar in their tea the next it's salt.
> Jump aboard the love train .
I think you gave a right advice when you said that's good to keep an open mind, so that the door of love will stay ajar. I definitely agree with you on that point.
I don't agree about the youth love stuff you were talking about (one day is sugarly next day could be salty).
The most important relationship of my life actually took place in my early twenties: i was depressed already, divorced already (got married when i was 18: it was pure hell: absolutely no sugar in my tea)
WelI, that year I was sick already, (i was 21) still, i trusted this person for the very first time in my life: i didn't have any clue what trust was about before that. I thought it was about being blind, not seeing the person's flaws, being naive, etc...The real trust it's about seeing the person as he/she is and love him/her despite of this.
It's about accepting the person as he/she really is. And you can do that even if you're depressed:i believe love manages to penetrate deep inside of you in spite of depression, sadness and despair. I know that's possible because i've experienced it.
I had a very strong tie with this guy, it made mature: we have been together for five years; we're still in touch. It was 1991 when we met: i was scary at first, after ten years i can say it was worthy.
Can i still do that? Unfortunately not. I think i grew more cynical, i'm much less open-hearthed/minded then i used to be.
I wish i could feel that way again. Strange thing is that i was much sicker/depressed then i am right now (my problem is mainly anhedonia at the moment).
Posted by Roo on July 12, 2001, at 8:26:33
In reply to Love is possible with depression, posted by Anna Laura on July 12, 2001, at 3:44:09
Paula--yes, I resonate, very much. Been thinking
about the same stuff a lot lately, and despairing
about it.Lissa--wondering why you think living together is
not a good idea for depressed people?AnnaLaura--Thank you for your post and your message
of hope. I need to feel hopeful about this subject.
After all, I think all of us most deeply desire to
be loved. Are you still with this person?My heart aches thinking maybe I can't have a relationship
b/c of my depression. I used to worry that I was
unlovable b/c of my depression. Now I worry that
it renders me incapable of lifetime love.
Posted by lissa on July 12, 2001, at 13:07:31
In reply to Re: Love is possible with depression-everyone, posted by Roo on July 12, 2001, at 8:26:33
> Lissa--wondering why you think living together is
> not a good idea for depressed people?Like I said, sugar in the tea one day and then it's salt the next. okay, Dreamer said that, but I like it.
Posted by paula on July 12, 2001, at 15:54:23
In reply to it's benvenuto-paula! » paula, posted by lissa on July 12, 2001, at 1:28:39
> Hi Benvenuto-Paula,
>
> I was beginning to worry you'd left because you just weren't feeling benvenuto enough :]
>
> lissaHa! No, just preoccupied with this amazing class that I'm in. Grazie for the re-benvenuto!
p
Posted by paula on July 12, 2001, at 16:03:41
In reply to Love is possible with depression, posted by Anna Laura on July 12, 2001, at 3:44:09
> > You aint weird I'm weirder than the average. Two plutontic friends and a pussycat. So many relationships[not that slapper's my middle name]
> > Had relationship for five years; always magical in the beggining, feel alive then boredom comes.
> > Trust no-one but try to keep an open mind then the door of love will stay ajar.I've yet to fall deep.
> > A wise-ity for the youth, although I'm a springing chicken, beware of the living together it doesn't work well for depressives. One day it's sugar in their tea the next it's salt.
> > Jump aboard the love train .
>
>
> I think you gave a right advice when you said that's good to keep an open mind, so that the door of love will stay ajar. I definitely agree with you on that point.
> I don't agree about the youth love stuff you were talking about (one day is sugarly next day could be salty).
> The most important relationship of my life actually took place in my early twenties: i was depressed already, divorced already (got married when i was 18: it was pure hell: absolutely no sugar in my tea)
> WelI, that year I was sick already, (i was 21) still, i trusted this person for the very first time in my life: i didn't have any clue what trust was about before that. I thought it was about being blind, not seeing the person's flaws, being naive, etc...The real trust it's about seeing the person as he/she is and love him/her despite of this.
> It's about accepting the person as he/she really is. And you can do that even if you're depressed:i believe love manages to penetrate deep inside of you in spite of depression, sadness and despair. I know that's possible because i've experienced it.
> I had a very strong tie with this guy, it made mature: we have been together for five years; we're still in touch. It was 1991 when we met: i was scary at first, after ten years i can say it was worthy.
> Can i still do that? Unfortunately not. I think i grew more cynical, i'm much less open-hearthed/minded then i used to be.
> I wish i could feel that way again. Strange thing is that i was much sicker/depressed then i am right now (my problem is mainly anhedonia at the moment).
>
AnnaLaura,Excellent point about the trust issue. I guess I hadn't thought about it that way because the closest brushes with love that I've had have resulted in quietly catastrophic breaches of trust.
This may sound silly, but how do you know you have anhedonia? Is there an official diagnosis of that? I think that my long-term depression could just as easily be categorized in such a way.
So do you agree with the saying "better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all?" Having never been in a real, honest-to-goodness *relationship* I can only judge from the outside looking in. (Isn't that always the way with depression?)
Paula
Posted by paula on July 12, 2001, at 16:07:38
In reply to Re: speaking of love... » paula, posted by dreamer on July 12, 2001, at 1:08:52
> You aint weird I'm weirder than the average. Two plutontic friends and a pussycat. So many relationships[not that slapper's my middle name]
> Had relationship for five years; always magical in the beggining, feel alive then boredom comes.
> Trust no-one but try to keep an open mind then the door of love will stay ajar.I've yet to fall deep.
> A wise-ity for the youth, although I'm a springing chicken, beware of the living together it doesn't work well for depressives. One day it's sugar in their tea the next it's salt.
> Jump aboard the love train .I take it that you've been in a lot of relationships precisely because it's magical at the beginning?
I'm not sure the love train stops in my neighborhood, and I'm too chicken to flag it down. :)
Paula (who has many platonic friends and two cats)
Posted by paula on July 12, 2001, at 16:20:07
In reply to Re: Love is possible with depression-everyone, posted by Roo on July 12, 2001, at 8:26:33
> Paula--yes, I resonate, very much. Been thinking
> about the same stuff a lot lately, and despairing
> about it.
< snip >
> My heart aches thinking maybe I can't have a relationship
> b/c of my depression. I used to worry that I was
> unlovable b/c of my depression. Now I worry that
> it renders me incapable of lifetime love.Hi Roo,
I'm sorry to hear that you've been despairing a lot about this lately. Maybe you can take hope in the fact that you still *want* to connect to someone. I sometimes worry about myself that I don't despair enough about the, er, problem. It just ain't natural! I think what happened is that I subconsciously made the decision as a teenager to preemptively remove myself from "the game." Assuming that love was not for me (or rather that I wasn't worthy so why bother, etc.) made things much easier. Of course, I was also cultivating a masochistic stoicism with a good dose of imagined martyrdom and perfectionism at the time. I feel a long-delayed teenage rebellion coming on.... Bring on the hedonism!!
Paula
Posted by lissa on July 12, 2001, at 18:20:37
In reply to Re: Love is possible with depression-everyone » Roo, posted by paula on July 12, 2001, at 16:20:07
> feel a long-delayed teenage rebellion coming on.... Bring on the hedonism!!
yee haaaw! When you're depressed, you may want to stay at home on the weekend and even sleep in. Avoid that temptation. Do your hair up real nice and take your books to the coffee place/pub or the park on the weekend and do your work there. Start small, coffee-shop geeks can be very approachable.
Posted by dreamer on July 12, 2001, at 18:28:45
In reply to Re: speaking of love... » dreamer, posted by paula on July 12, 2001, at 16:07:38
>
> > You aint weird I'm weirder than the average. Two plutontic friends and a pussycat. So many relationships[not that slapper's my middle name]
> > Had relationship for five years; always magical in the beggining, feel alive then boredom comes.
> > Trust no-one but try to keep an open mind then the door of love will stay ajar.I've yet to fall deep.
> > A wise-ity for the youth, although I'm a springing chicken, beware of the living together it doesn't work well for depressives. One day it's sugar in their tea the next it's salt.
> > Jump aboard the love train .
>
> I take it that you've been in a lot of relationships precisely because it's magical at the beginning?
>
> I'm not sure the love train stops in my neighborhood, and I'm too chicken to flag it down. :)
>
> Paula (who has many platonic friends and two cats)Helloowie'
Always transfer my ideal relationship on someone thinking this may be the one. Begginings-the curiosity the melting in their prescence the chase, teasing etc.
Usually fall for the unusual not necessarially attractive [my spellin is awful isn't it] suppose I get dissapointed when passion/ romance/spontinaity isnt as strongly given back-[tried to think of word recip???] dictionary please.
Posted by Adam on July 12, 2001, at 18:54:11
In reply to speaking of love..., posted by paula on July 12, 2001, at 0:38:38
I think love can blossom in the presence of and even survive depression. From my experience though, I don't think it is easy in the absence of education about and awareness of the disease.
Love relationships are a source of solace for everyone, but this solace has its limits. It should. A good relationship between two people, I am convinced, can only flourish if the members of the pair have a degree of self-sufficiency. As soon as the relationship becomes, in the mind of the depressed person(s), a remedy for the depression, problems will arise. It's treading that fine line of interdepndancy and codependancy that I think is the greatest challenge, even among the "healthy", and perhaps a greater risk for those who are depressed.
So I guess, again, the best thing is to seek love at all times, and be as aware of and open about the illness with you partner as is appropriate for you level of intimacy. Keep the proper focus on the legitimate cures for depression, good medications and therapy, and the energy you put into the relationship will be well directed and well spent.
> Hi All,
>
> I'm wondering how it's possible that so many depressed people manage to have romantic relationships at all. One of the things that I've *felt* like my recent diagnosis has explained is the fact that I simply can't trust anyone enough to get involved. I mean *at all.* It also takes me a while to make friends--but the few friends I do have are very close.
>
> I guess I'm just curious about how "wierd" I am. In some ways I think I've handled my issues quite well in the last 20 (of my 30) years. But my, um, "love" life is a glaring exception. Does this have any resonance for anyone else? And for those who are in relationships (of any stripe), do you find that the relationship helps with the depression? It's always seemed to me like too much of a risk, but maybe I'm mistaken. (Wouldn't be the first time!!)
>
> Paula
Posted by JennyR on July 12, 2001, at 22:41:40
In reply to speaking of love..., posted by paula on July 12, 2001, at 0:38:38
I am married a long time, and struggle with very similar things. I fell out of love long ago. I wonder if the problems in the relationship led to my depression problems, or I don't feel the love because I had a general blunting of feeling most of my life.
I think a lot of this stuff has to do with how our original family related and what we saw our parents model. Mine never were close or affectionate, no terms of endearment, never said "I love you" to each other or us 2 kids. So now I can feel no love - for my husband, my parents. Although in all cases they haven't treated me as they should have. But I'm thinking maybe I'd be better at love if I had seen it modeled as a kid.
I can feel it for my kids, but I think that's a more primal, maternal thing.
If depressives do have a general blunting of affect, it would make sense for love to be a problem area.
Though I'm married a long time, I think I have barriers to closeness. So I think you can even be in a relationship and have barriers.
My problem is not being too dependent, I'm too much the opposite, and I've taken care of his neediness all these years.
Anyway, I don't understand love either.
Posted by Lorraine on July 14, 2001, at 22:45:57
In reply to Re: speaking of love..., posted by JennyR on July 12, 2001, at 22:41:40
Just wanted to say that I have a wonderful loving relationship with my husband of 20 years. Things are tough sometimes because I am depressed. So sometimes my sexual desire is no where to be found. Sometimes I spend "datenight" crying. But I bring a lot to the relationship. I am incredibly willing to be vulnerable (do i have a choice?), I am insightful, I truly appreciate the good times, I have an emotional depth that most people do not have the misfortune of developing, and I do the best I can with the resources I have at that moment. There is a emotional blossoming that happens in depression, a depth of understanding and compassion that other people do not have (unless they are near death--i mean this), these are strengths. Anyway, I sound like I am bragging I'm sure--(i'm not), but I think I'm an incredible wife and mother--in part because I realize how fragile and tender life is.
I do remember having the conversation with my husband a couple of years ago, when I said "this isn't the duty that you signed on for when we got married". I suppose people with MS have that same conversation with their spouses.
What can I say? Depression sucks, but being married doesn't and loving people is essential.
Posted by Marie1 on July 15, 2001, at 9:28:23
In reply to Re: speaking of love...yes possible 20 years..., posted by Lorraine on July 14, 2001, at 22:45:57
> Just wanted to say that I have a wonderful loving relationship with my husband of 20 years. Things are tough sometimes because I am depressed. So sometimes my sexual desire is no where to be found. Sometimes I spend "datenight" crying. But I bring a lot to the relationship. I am incredibly willing to be vulnerable (do i have a choice?), I am insightful, I truly appreciate the good times, I have an emotional depth that most people do not have the misfortune of developing,
Lorraine -
The "emotional depth" you refer to - I'm afraid that's what I may be missing. And I don't remember if I had it BD (before depression). Except for my kids, I don't feel in touch with deep emotions. I've noticed other posters saying basically the same thing, and I wonder - did it come with depression? Or was it there all along? BTW, since the primal love I feel for my kids is still there, I wonder if perhaps it's stored in a different part of the brain?
>and I do the best I can with the resources I have at that moment. There is a emotional blossoming that happens in depression, a depth of understanding and compassion that other people do not haveDoes this emotional blossoming occur when you are in remission? or do you think it's a by-product of suffering the depression (while you are still depressed)?
>(unless they are near death--i mean this), these are strengths. Anyway, I sound like I am bragging I'm sure--
I don't think you're bragging at all; Im envious of your being able to hold on to the depth of feeling you have for your husband. I'd give anything to get that back.
>(i'm not), but I think I'm an incredible wife and mother--in part because I realize how fragile and tender life is.
>
> I do remember having the conversation with my husband a couple of years ago, when I said "this isn't the duty that you signed on for when we got married".I also remember, during the worst parts of my illness, asking my husband to please kill me; I said I'd leave a note letting him off the hook. Good thing he never took me up on it! :-)
>I suppose people with MS have that same conversation with their spouses.
>
> What can I say? Depression sucks, but being married doesn't and loving people is essential.I'm sincerely glad to hear of your positive relationship with your husband. I think maybe my spouse and I should do couples counseling but so far he's been against it. It may get to the point where we can't put it off.
Take care.
Marie
Posted by Lorraine on July 15, 2001, at 12:24:27
In reply to Re: speaking of love...yes possible 20 years... » Lorraine, posted by Marie1 on July 15, 2001, at 9:28:23
> The "emotional depth" you refer to - I'm afraid that's what I may be missing. And I don't remember if I had it BD (before depression). Except for my kids, I don't feel in touch with deep emotions. I've noticed other posters saying basically the same thing, and I wonder - did it come with depression?
See, now you've made me cry. I think of how much I have lost to this disease, but then realize that I would be truly lost is I lost my capacity to connect. It is what has kept me going all these years. Even in therapy, you don't feel emotions?
Or was it there all along? BTW, since the primal love I feel for my kids is still there, I wonder if perhaps it's stored in a different part of the brain?
I don't know. Love for my children is primal. But then someone wrote a book about her depression and using ECT. She said that when she was depressed every night she stood with her head leaning against the door to her daughter's room and that when that wasn't enough to keep her tethered to the earth, she checked into the hospital for ECT. So I guess there is something more that can be lost.
>
> >and I do the best I can with the resources I have at that moment. There is a emotional blossoming that happens in depression, a depth of understanding and compassion that other people do not have
>
> Does this emotional blossoming occur when you are in remission? or do you think it's a by-product of suffering the depression (while you are still depressed)?No, I feel this everyday in the middle of despair. My father-in-law writes me a touching email about how much he values me and tears spring to my eyes. I picture myself tethered to this earth by my relationships. When things are awful, I say to myself what one thing could I do to enhance a relationship with someone I care about. Sometimes I can do that one thing (call, write, send a gift, see them, have them over for dinner); sometimes I can't. But I find that with my depression so much is about managing energy and I allocate my resources first to maintaining relationships.
> >(unless they are near death--i mean this), these are strengths.
I just want to clarify. When people are dieing of a terminal illness--there are forced to develop resources within themselves to make this journey. I think that depression forces us to make the same sort of growth.
> I don't think you're bragging at all; Im envious of your being able to hold on to the depth of feeling you have for your husband. I'd give anything to get that back.I am so sorry that you have lost it. It not something that therapy or couple therapy can reclaim? Sometimes my husband and I go back into therapy together just to dust off the cobwebs, walls and rigidity that settles in on relationships.
> I also remember, during the worst parts of my illness, asking my husband to please kill me; I said I'd leave a note letting him off the hook. Good thing he never took me up on it! :-)I'd be scared to death to talk to my husband about suicide. He would worry about me constantly (it's his nature). He would worry about me driving for instance.
> I'm sincerely glad to hear of your positive relationship with your husband. I think maybe my spouse and I should do couples counseling but so far he's been against it. It may get to the point where we can't put it off.Well, if you go into therapy for yourself and ask him to join you to help you work on yourself and then ask him again to join you and so forth. Sometimes sticking the toe in the water, makes it easier to jump in. A lot of people are afraid of therapy. I wish you luck on this.
I want you to know how thoughtful and though-provoking your response was. Thank-you.
> Take care.
> Marie
Posted by Roo on July 16, 2001, at 7:59:32
In reply to Re: speaking of love...yes possible 20 years... » Marie1, posted by Lorraine on July 15, 2001, at 12:24:27
Lorraine--
Just wanted to thank you for your post. It made
me feel hopeful :-)
This is the end of the thread.
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