![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 41. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by shar on October 15, 2000, at 12:05:57
NB: I don't want to tear Caroline's post apart again. I am wondering where "support" begins and ends.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is based on the response post that Caroline wrote above. I went back and read what Caroline wrote after having read what Pritzker wrote, and I still tend to agree with Caroline.
I guess my question is: when someone is obviously distressed, fends off all recommendations, lives in a way that does not seem reality-based (IMHO), and keeps on responding to posts with more of the same, ..... what to do?
Support that person unconditionally down that road? There had been many previous supportive responses to Pritzker's initial post(s). When I read P's responses and they continued to get (IMHO) less oriented toward wanting to understand or help herself, and more into the fantasy world, I was very concerned that this person was in need of real help and wasn't understanding that there was a problem. I thought this might be a case where P was about to have a breakdown or was about ready to go off in a more regrettable fashion, and needed to be addressed.
In light of all that, I appreciated the straightforward and genuine way Caroline's post said "Get help" in essence. I did not know how to write a good response, I fear mine would have been much plainer than Caroline's and not so full of qualifications such as "I may be wrong" or the other things Caroline did to soften her statements. (I have to admit I still have those concerns about P and hope she came to realize she needed help pretty quickly.)
So, hypothetically, how do people think it's best to handle a situation where someone is not presenting with clear symptoms (ie, suicidal ideation), but seems to need help pretty quick, but doesn't seem to have any idea of that?
Shar
Posted by ksvt on October 15, 2000, at 15:57:04
In reply to Support to what end? Caroline's post revisited., posted by shar on October 15, 2000, at 12:05:57
> NB: I don't want to tear Caroline's post apart again. I am wondering where "support" begins and ends.
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> This is based on the response post that Caroline wrote above. I went back and read what Caroline wrote after having read what Pritzker wrote, and I still tend to agree with Caroline.
>
> I guess my question is: when someone is obviously distressed, fends off all recommendations, lives in a way that does not seem reality-based (IMHO), and keeps on responding to posts with more of the same, ..... what to do?
>
> Support that person unconditionally down that road? There had been many previous supportive responses to Pritzker's initial post(s). When I read P's responses and they continued to get (IMHO) less oriented toward wanting to understand or help herself, and more into the fantasy world, I was very concerned that this person was in need of real help and wasn't understanding that there was a problem. I thought this might be a case where P was about to have a breakdown or was about ready to go off in a more regrettable fashion, and needed to be addressed.
>
> In light of all that, I appreciated the straightforward and genuine way Caroline's post said "Get help" in essence. I did not know how to write a good response, I fear mine would have been much plainer than Caroline's and not so full of qualifications such as "I may be wrong" or the other things Caroline did to soften her statements. (I have to admit I still have those concerns about P and hope she came to realize she needed help pretty quickly.)
>
> So, hypothetically, how do people think it's best to handle a situation where someone is not presenting with clear symptoms (ie, suicidal ideation), but seems to need help pretty quick, but doesn't seem to have any idea of that?
>
> SharI, too, thought Caroline's post was pretty on the mark, and not necessarily insensitive. Sometimes, (fortunately pretty rarely) I see posts on this board that are so off the wall that I wonder if the poster isn't yanking our collective chains. It sort of pains me to see loyal supportive babblers trying to wade in with serious responses to people who are either engaged in some personal joke or who aren't really going to pay attention to anything that's offered. I can't trust my ability to differentiate, or to say something that's too caustic. It's easier to stay out of certain threads. I commend all of you who have more fortitude. ksvt
Posted by Snowie on October 15, 2000, at 20:21:56
In reply to Support to what end? Caroline's post revisited., posted by shar on October 15, 2000, at 12:05:57
Shar,
I agree with you, and I agreed with Caroline's original post. I didn't find Caroline's post insensitive, but she didn't miss any punches. However, wasn't that what Pritzker requested? Allow me to refresh my memory:
"So, my proposal to the readers of this network is to give me feedback (any and all feedback). I desperately need responses from real people."
"Please! Write something/anything under my thread. Please."
"It is so exciting that I have all these Follow-ups under my topic now. It is a very warm feeling to receive all these replies."
"Please keep talking to me. I just love it that people are actually responding to my thoughts. Thoughts that I had thought were so disturbing to the community-at-large that until now, I have kept in the recess of my soul."
"Please give me more feedbacks. I only have four different people writing to me thus far. More please. My dream is to have as long a list of feedbacks as Dr.Bob's postings."
A couple of Pritzker's posts have been deleted. Maybe they were multiple posts ... I guess only Dr. Bob knows the answer to that.
In response to Shar, Mark, and Noa's natural curiosity and the questions that flowed therefrom, Pritzker completely avoided all of their questions, and soon thereafter seemed to lose interest. Hence, the post on a separate thread:
"At this moment, I am fallen behind in my studies. So, I'll need to "buckle down" a bit till the weekend. I'll write something extensive and honest about myself then. I am still a bit hesitant about the security of this service. I am considering setting up an appointment with Dr.T next week or so."
I personally found Pritzker's posts disturbing. We can all relate to fantasy ... I fantasized about a mailman at a previous job for way too long (two years), but it never went beyond mutual flirtation and my imagination, and disappeared when he eventually married. Pritzker's fantasy appears to have spilled over into real life, even to the point where s/he is stalking the people s/he fantasizes about. I personally felt as if we were a part of some experiment or game; and although I was intrigued, I wasn't about to encourage Pritzker further. Maybe Caroline's post wasn't what Pritzker wanted to hear, but s/he did ask for honest feedback. Hopefully, Pritzker was paying attention. In hindsight, even though my mailman fantasy never reached the level of obsession that Pritzker's appears to have reached, I wish someone had been as honest with me as Caroline was with Pritzker. It may have been a bitter pill to swallow, but necessary medicine nonetheless.
Finally, I must confess that I also wondered if Dr. H. was Dr. Bob. If that is the case, then I hope Pritzker's therapist has read the posts and will act accordingly. If that is not the case, then I hope Pritzker will feel free to clear up that misunderstanding. I think the reason we are having a difficult time letting this go is because no one really knows who Pritzker is, nor the true motivation behind his or her posts. I doubt we'll ever know.
Snowie
> NB: I don't want to tear Caroline's post apart again. I am wondering where "support" begins and ends.
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> This is based on the response post that Caroline wrote above. I went back and read what Caroline wrote after having read what Pritzker wrote, and I still tend to agree with Caroline.
>
> I guess my question is: when someone is obviously distressed, fends off all recommendations, lives in a way that does not seem reality-based (IMHO), and keeps on responding to posts with more of the same, ..... what to do?
>
> Support that person unconditionally down that road? There had been many previous supportive responses to Pritzker's initial post(s). When I read P's responses and they continued to get (IMHO) less oriented toward wanting to understand or help herself, and more into the fantasy world, I was very concerned that this person was in need of real help and wasn't understanding that there was a problem. I thought this might be a case where P was about to have a breakdown or was about ready to go off in a more regrettable fashion, and needed to be addressed.
>
> In light of all that, I appreciated the straightforward and genuine way Caroline's post said "Get help" in essence. I did not know how to write a good response, I fear mine would have been much plainer than Caroline's and not so full of qualifications such as "I may be wrong" or the other things Caroline did to soften her statements. (I have to admit I still have those concerns about P and hope she came to realize she needed help pretty quickly.)
>
> So, hypothetically, how do people think it's best to handle a situation where someone is not presenting with clear symptoms (ie, suicidal ideation), but seems to need help pretty quick, but doesn't seem to have any idea of that?
>
> Shar
Posted by Rzip on October 15, 2000, at 20:52:22
In reply to Re: Support to what end? Caroline's post revisited. » shar, posted by Snowie on October 15, 2000, at 20:21:56
> Everyone,
All I wanted was to find someone to talk back and forth to. I am just extremely lonely. I just want to find people to talk to.
Rzip
Shar,
>
> I agree with you, and I agreed with Caroline's original post. I didn't find Caroline's post insensitive, but she didn't miss any punches. However, wasn't that what Pritzker requested? Allow me to refresh my memory:
>
> "So, my proposal to the readers of this network is to give me feedback (any and all feedback). I desperately need responses from real people."
>
> "Please! Write something/anything under my thread. Please."
>
> "It is so exciting that I have all these Follow-ups under my topic now. It is a very warm feeling to receive all these replies."
>
> "Please keep talking to me. I just love it that people are actually responding to my thoughts. Thoughts that I had thought were so disturbing to the community-at-large that until now, I have kept in the recess of my soul."
>
> "Please give me more feedbacks. I only have four different people writing to me thus far. More please. My dream is to have as long a list of feedbacks as Dr.Bob's postings."
>
> A couple of Pritzker's posts have been deleted. Maybe they were multiple posts ... I guess only Dr. Bob knows the answer to that.
>
> In response to Shar, Mark, and Noa's natural curiosity and the questions that flowed therefrom, Pritzker completely avoided all of their questions, and soon thereafter seemed to lose interest. Hence, the post on a separate thread:
>
> "At this moment, I am fallen behind in my studies. So, I'll need to "buckle down" a bit till the weekend. I'll write something extensive and honest about myself then. I am still a bit hesitant about the security of this service. I am considering setting up an appointment with Dr.T next week or so."
>
> I personally found Pritzker's posts disturbing. We can all relate to fantasy ... I fantasized about a mailman at a previous job for way too long (two years), but it never went beyond mutual flirtation and my imagination, and disappeared when he eventually married. Pritzker's fantasy appears to have spilled over into real life, even to the point where s/he is stalking the people s/he fantasizes about. I personally felt as if we were a part of some experiment or game; and although I was intrigued, I wasn't about to encourage Pritzker further. Maybe Caroline's post wasn't what Pritzker wanted to hear, but s/he did ask for honest feedback. Hopefully, Pritzker was paying attention. In hindsight, even though my mailman fantasy never reached the level of obsession that Pritzker's appears to have reached, I wish someone had been as honest with me as Caroline was with Pritzker. It may have been a bitter pill to swallow, but necessary medicine nonetheless.
>
> Finally, I must confess that I also wondered if Dr. H. was Dr. Bob. If that is the case, then I hope Pritzker's therapist has read the posts and will act accordingly. If that is not the case, then I hope Pritzker will feel free to clear up that misunderstanding. I think the reason we are having a difficult time letting this go is because no one really knows who Pritzker is, nor the true motivation behind his or her posts. I doubt we'll ever know.
>
> Snowie
>
>
> > NB: I don't want to tear Caroline's post apart again. I am wondering where "support" begins and ends.
> >
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > This is based on the response post that Caroline wrote above. I went back and read what Caroline wrote after having read what Pritzker wrote, and I still tend to agree with Caroline.
> >
> > I guess my question is: when someone is obviously distressed, fends off all recommendations, lives in a way that does not seem reality-based (IMHO), and keeps on responding to posts with more of the same, ..... what to do?
> >
> > Support that person unconditionally down that road? There had been many previous supportive responses to Pritzker's initial post(s). When I read P's responses and they continued to get (IMHO) less oriented toward wanting to understand or help herself, and more into the fantasy world, I was very concerned that this person was in need of real help and wasn't understanding that there was a problem. I thought this might be a case where P was about to have a breakdown or was about ready to go off in a more regrettable fashion, and needed to be addressed.
> >
> > In light of all that, I appreciated the straightforward and genuine way Caroline's post said "Get help" in essence. I did not know how to write a good response, I fear mine would have been much plainer than Caroline's and not so full of qualifications such as "I may be wrong" or the other things Caroline did to soften her statements. (I have to admit I still have those concerns about P and hope she came to realize she needed help pretty quickly.)
> >
> > So, hypothetically, how do people think it's best to handle a situation where someone is not presenting with clear symptoms (ie, suicidal ideation), but seems to need help pretty quick, but doesn't seem to have any idea of that?
> >
> > Shar
Posted by allisonm on October 15, 2000, at 21:08:25
In reply to Re: Support to what end? Caroline's post revisited. » Snowie, posted by Rzip on October 15, 2000, at 20:52:22
Rzip, from your other posts I thought that was you, Pritzker. Why the name change?
Posted by Rzip on October 15, 2000, at 21:16:32
In reply to Re: Support to what end? Caroline's post revisited. » shar, posted by Snowie on October 15, 2000, at 20:21:56
> I want to clarify something. I do not fantasize about the therapist all the time. It is just that at the moment I was writing the thread, I thought of starting with them since this service is about psychiatry, you know. I obviously misunderstood the rhythm and the conversations that went on this board. So, when I came back under the name, Rzip, I tried to model after some of the other writers in my writing. All I want is for people to talk back and forth to me. In my normal day life, I am extremely shy and I am just unable to carry on any substantial prolonged conversations with people. I thought on this board, I can share some of my most inner thoughts. I guess I got my hopes up again.
I really do not mind the critical responses I have been getting. It does get me to thinking about myself. I never thought the responses would be so strong. I however do not think it is very nice to attack me, or rather use my words against me. I just think that is a bit abusive, and it hurts my feelings. But whatever you guys want to say is fine. All I really want is to talk back and forth to people.
Someone mentioned that they do not know who I am, but isn't that what makes this service so safe for the depth of communication that goes on here.
Rzip
Shar,
>
> I agree with you, and I agreed with Caroline's original post. I didn't find Caroline's post insensitive, but she didn't miss any punches. However, wasn't that what Pritzker requested? Allow me to refresh my memory:
>
> "So, my proposal to the readers of this network is to give me feedback (any and all feedback). I desperately need responses from real people."
>
> "Please! Write something/anything under my thread. Please."
>
> "It is so exciting that I have all these Follow-ups under my topic now. It is a very warm feeling to receive all these replies."
>
> "Please keep talking to me. I just love it that people are actually responding to my thoughts. Thoughts that I had thought were so disturbing to the community-at-large that until now, I have kept in the recess of my soul."
>
> "Please give me more feedbacks. I only have four different people writing to me thus far. More please. My dream is to have as long a list of feedbacks as Dr.Bob's postings."
>
> A couple of Pritzker's posts have been deleted. Maybe they were multiple posts ... I guess only Dr. Bob knows the answer to that.
>
> In response to Shar, Mark, and Noa's natural curiosity and the questions that flowed therefrom, Pritzker completely avoided all of their questions, and soon thereafter seemed to lose interest. Hence, the post on a separate thread:
>
> "At this moment, I am fallen behind in my studies. So, I'll need to "buckle down" a bit till the weekend. I'll write something extensive and honest about myself then. I am still a bit hesitant about the security of this service. I am considering setting up an appointment with Dr.T next week or so."
>
> I personally found Pritzker's posts disturbing. We can all relate to fantasy ... I fantasized about a mailman at a previous job for way too long (two years), but it never went beyond mutual flirtation and my imagination, and disappeared when he eventually married. Pritzker's fantasy appears to have spilled over into real life, even to the point where s/he is stalking the people s/he fantasizes about. I personally felt as if we were a part of some experiment or game; and although I was intrigued, I wasn't about to encourage Pritzker further. Maybe Caroline's post wasn't what Pritzker wanted to hear, but s/he did ask for honest feedback. Hopefully, Pritzker was paying attention. In hindsight, even though my mailman fantasy never reached the level of obsession that Pritzker's appears to have reached, I wish someone had been as honest with me as Caroline was with Pritzker. It may have been a bitter pill to swallow, but necessary medicine nonetheless.
>
> Finally, I must confess that I also wondered if Dr. H. was Dr. Bob. If that is the case, then I hope Pritzker's therapist has read the posts and will act accordingly. If that is not the case, then I hope Pritzker will feel free to clear up that misunderstanding. I think the reason we are having a difficult time letting this go is because no one really knows who Pritzker is, nor the true motivation behind his or her posts. I doubt we'll ever know.
>
> Snowie
>
>
> > NB: I don't want to tear Caroline's post apart again. I am wondering where "support" begins and ends.
> >
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > This is based on the response post that Caroline wrote above. I went back and read what Caroline wrote after having read what Pritzker wrote, and I still tend to agree with Caroline.
> >
> > I guess my question is: when someone is obviously distressed, fends off all recommendations, lives in a way that does not seem reality-based (IMHO), and keeps on responding to posts with more of the same, ..... what to do?
> >
> > Support that person unconditionally down that road? There had been many previous supportive responses to Pritzker's initial post(s). When I read P's responses and they continued to get (IMHO) less oriented toward wanting to understand or help herself, and more into the fantasy world, I was very concerned that this person was in need of real help and wasn't understanding that there was a problem. I thought this might be a case where P was about to have a breakdown or was about ready to go off in a more regrettable fashion, and needed to be addressed.
> >
> > In light of all that, I appreciated the straightforward and genuine way Caroline's post said "Get help" in essence. I did not know how to write a good response, I fear mine would have been much plainer than Caroline's and not so full of qualifications such as "I may be wrong" or the other things Caroline did to soften her statements. (I have to admit I still have those concerns about P and hope she came to realize she needed help pretty quickly.)
> >
> > So, hypothetically, how do people think it's best to handle a situation where someone is not presenting with clear symptoms (ie, suicidal ideation), but seems to need help pretty quick, but doesn't seem to have any idea of that?
> >
> > Shar
Posted by shar on October 15, 2000, at 22:37:38
In reply to Re: Support to what end? Caroline's post revisited., posted by Rzip on October 15, 2000, at 21:16:32
I, too, thought Pritzker and Rzip were the same. I would like for you to know that your Pritzker posts raised concerns in me, and that was why I started this thread.
It seemed apparent you were fantasizing lots, and yet didn't want to talk with your therapist, and yet really seemed distraught. And I was worried about how long someone could continue that way without needing significant help.
You appear to be a caring person, and I'm sure you would have concerns about someone who seemed to be reaching out, but wouldn't get help.
What I would like the very, very most of all is for you to write a post to me (or whomever you choose) that is strictly from your heart and mind about how you are doing.
In the above post, you said you were shy. That seemed honest, and not like you were trying to write or think like someone else. The only thing you need to be on this board is you, yourself. You can just say what is on your mind or in your heart, not trying to be like or say what you think we want to hear.
You are enough, and it's you we would like to get to know. The real you, and if you have a problem like it's hard to make friends, we can all talk about that. Probably that is something a lot of people here deal with (I do).
You (as you yourself) are very welcome here. We are just ordinary people, talking about what we feel and experience, and certainly there is always room for one more.
However, I just felt so confused by the Pritzker posts, and concerned. I'd much rather have you be yourself.
Shar
Posted by Rzip on October 15, 2000, at 23:26:35
In reply to Re: Support to what end? Caroline's post revisited. » Rzip, posted by shar on October 15, 2000, at 22:37:38
> Oh! This is so exciting. There is a lot I want to say about myself. Let's see...I am an undergraduate. I am majoring in Biology. In high school, I did very well in school. But right now, I am really struggling in school. I am told that it is not necessaryily because of the school load, or my extracurricular activities (work and I volunteer as a tutor once a week). My therapist said it is because I am very lonely. And I am so lonely that I am getting close to psychotic. Boy! I did not believe her when she first told me that in our session. And she got frustrated. And I was very hurt because I thought that the one person who I let get close is abandoning me. But I know that she will always be there for me, but I must be kind of frustrating for her to work with. Anyway, she said I should try and stop taking people into my own mind. Rather I should interact with people in the outside world. Which is what I am trying to do right now. The problem is that it is very frightening and scary for me to interact with people in the outside world. I am not exactly sure why. I think I am afraid that in the outside world, people respond back unpredicatably. Wherelse in a therapy setting or in my mind (same thing for me), I can always pretty much predict how my people will react. Does that make sense?
I think the reason I was very eager for people on this board to respond is because I get to have nonphysical responses. You know I can kind of filter through and find those responses that I can handle and place those responses that I can not somewhere else. I did figure if I "take on" the format that you guys are writing, I would be more acceptable. I desperately want to be included in your family. It is kind of part way between my mind and the outside world.
I do not think that I need support in terms of understanding and such as much as I need you guys just to keep talking and writing to me. It doesn't have to be too overwhelming. I mean you do not have to write anything in terms of being supportive or anything. It would be great just to say hi! I think I would very much welcome just making little exchanges with you guys. You know I am so addicted to this site now. I must check it every ten minutes or so. I really just want to get responses, any responses.
As to how I have been feeling...not good at all. I am mostly drained of energy, tired. But since I am a student and I have a heavy load of schoolwork, the loss of concentration/spacing-out is really effecting my schoolwork, which I care about dearly. The myth of being obsessed about schoolwork as a premed is definitely true. Except, I am justing trying to make it to class and get my homework done these days. I am not even striving for perfection any more. I think I am very bothered that my physician dream is dying away as I am continue to struggle with the schoolwork. It is not that I do not understand or can not do the work, I just can not concentrate. I think of it as losing time. This weekend has just been a blur. Losing time.
I am very glad that you responded with your follow-up. Somehow, it feels right. I kind of thought you guys may have come to a concensus not to responding to me anymore since I do not seem to be listening. I have definitely been reading everything, sometimes numerous times. I do not know if I have heard it all yet. Things just have a hard time to sink in to me. I guess I am both psychotic and stubborn.
Thanks. I feel that finally someone is speaking to ME.
I, too, thought Pritzker and Rzip were the same. I would like for you to know that your Pritzker posts raised concerns in me, and that was why I started this thread.
>
> It seemed apparent you were fantasizing lots, and yet didn't want to talk with your therapist, and yet really seemed distraught. And I was worried about how long someone could continue that way without needing significant help.
>
> You appear to be a caring person, and I'm sure you would have concerns about someone who seemed to be reaching out, but wouldn't get help.
>
> What I would like the very, very most of all is for you to write a post to me (or whomever you choose) that is strictly from your heart and mind about how you are doing.
>
> In the above post, you said you were shy. That seemed honest, and not like you were trying to write or think like someone else. The only thing you need to be on this board is you, yourself. You can just say what is on your mind or in your heart, not trying to be like or say what you think we want to hear.
>
> You are enough, and it's you we would like to get to know. The real you, and if you have a problem like it's hard to make friends, we can all talk about that. Probably that is something a lot of people here deal with (I do).
>
> You (as you yourself) are very welcome here. We are just ordinary people, talking about what we feel and experience, and certainly there is always room for one more.
>
> However, I just felt so confused by the Pritzker posts, and concerned. I'd much rather have you be yourself.
>
> Shar
Posted by Snowie on October 15, 2000, at 23:47:52
In reply to Re: Support to what end? Caroline's post revisited., posted by Rzip on October 15, 2000, at 21:16:32
Tei,
I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by quoting you, but all we have are words on the Internet. Consequently, by our words we are known.
You are a most intriguing person. Like Shar said, just be yourself and you'll be fine. We all have our own problems in real life as well. I would be lying if I said I didn't obsess during those two years about the mailman. I did, and this only happened about 5 years ago. We're all human, but we all have a need to be liked for who we are -- not for who we want to be.
I don't know who you are, but I'm a 44-year-old woman from Florida. I have social anxiety, general anxiety disorder, and who knows what else. I've just started therapy myself, and I like my therapist so far. I hate meds, so I take only what I need and no more.
Welcome.
Snowie
> > I want to clarify something. I do not fantasize about the therapist all the time. It is just that at the moment I was writing the thread, I thought of starting with them since this service is about psychiatry, you know. I obviously misunderstood the rhythm and the conversations that went on this board. So, when I came back under the name, Rzip, I tried to model after some of the other writers in my writing. All I want is for people to talk back and forth to me. In my normal day life, I am extremely shy and I am just unable to carry on any substantial prolonged conversations with people. I thought on this board, I can share some of my most inner thoughts. I guess I got my hopes up again.
>
> I really do not mind the critical responses I have been getting. It does get me to thinking about myself. I never thought the responses would be so strong. I however do not think it is very nice to attack me, or rather use my words against me. I just think that is a bit abusive, and it hurts my feelings. But whatever you guys want to say is fine. All I really want is to talk back and forth to people.
>
> Someone mentioned that they do not know who I am, but isn't that what makes this service so safe for the depth of communication that goes on here.
>
> Rzip
Posted by Rzip on October 16, 2000, at 0:34:56
In reply to Re: Support to what end? Caroline's post revisited » Rzip, posted by Snowie on October 15, 2000, at 23:47:52
> Let me be clear about the rules...I can not let the darker, more ominous side of me come out because that would be too disturbing for you guys. That is o.k. I really didn't mean to scary you guys. But I always had this theory that if people really get to know me, they would be put off by me. But those who do not really know me, likes me.
Right now, it is really more important for me to have people to talk to than to worry about my darker thoughts. I think my therapist finally is zoning in on my other side now. But she said that she really can not help me if I do not admit that I have a problem. All she can do is to keep me out of trouble. Like telling me I am forbidden from calling up those therapists and such. I think in our next session, I'll tell her that if I let people to really get to know me, I scare them and myself. That is a problem isn't it. Plus, I get very dizzy and disillusional when I am between the two state of mind.
I am happy that I am welcome here. That is all I wanted in the first place.
Thanks.
Tei,
>
> I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by quoting you, but all we have are words on the Internet. Consequently, by our words we are known.
>
> You are a most intriguing person. Like Shar said, just be yourself and you'll be fine. We all have our own problems in real life as well. I would be lying if I said I didn't obsess during those two years about the mailman. I did, and this only happened about 5 years ago. We're all human, but we all have a need to be liked for who we are -- not for who we want to be.
>
> I don't know who you are, but I'm a 44-year-old woman from Florida. I have social anxiety, general anxiety disorder, and who knows what else. I've just started therapy myself, and I like my therapist so far. I hate meds, so I take only what I need and no more.
>
> Welcome.
>
> Snowie
>
>
> > > I want to clarify something. I do not fantasize about the therapist all the time. It is just that at the moment I was writing the thread, I thought of starting with them since this service is about psychiatry, you know. I obviously misunderstood the rhythm and the conversations that went on this board. So, when I came back under the name, Rzip, I tried to model after some of the other writers in my writing. All I want is for people to talk back and forth to me. In my normal day life, I am extremely shy and I am just unable to carry on any substantial prolonged conversations with people. I thought on this board, I can share some of my most inner thoughts. I guess I got my hopes up again.
> >
> > I really do not mind the critical responses I have been getting. It does get me to thinking about myself. I never thought the responses would be so strong. I however do not think it is very nice to attack me, or rather use my words against me. I just think that is a bit abusive, and it hurts my feelings. But whatever you guys want to say is fine. All I really want is to talk back and forth to people.
> >
> > Someone mentioned that they do not know who I am, but isn't that what makes this service so safe for the depth of communication that goes on here.
> >
> > Rzip
Posted by quilter on October 16, 2000, at 0:42:17
In reply to Re: Support to what end? Caroline's post revisited. » shar, posted by Rzip on October 15, 2000, at 23:26:35
Welcome to the group! If you need to reread any post it should be Shar's. What I want is to know people as they really are, not some facade assumed to please or intrigue me. I, too, struggle with loneliness. I am a 47 year old artist and quiltmaker. It still feels strange to use such strong words to describe myself because my life is still very much a work in progress. Quilter
Posted by coral on October 16, 2000, at 6:40:23
In reply to Support to what end? Caroline's post revisited., posted by shar on October 15, 2000, at 12:05:57
Very nice call, Shar! Your intuition, exploration and questions were right on the mark. I admire your courage for tackling an issue that seemed to feel "unresolved".
Personally, I hope that people answer or respond to my posts with honesty, integrity, compassion and understanding which doesn't mean "sugar coating" but truth with kindness. I hope to uphold those same standards in my replies.
Posted by Snowie on October 16, 2000, at 7:15:45
In reply to Re: Support to what end? Caroline's post revisited, posted by Rzip on October 16, 2000, at 0:34:56
I guess those are your rules for how you perceive this Board? Tei, as humans we all have our dark side. The difference is that most of us have learned to suppress this side, or at the very least to channel it into other, more creative activities. Some of us are able to admit when we need help. Society has its own rules for acceptable and unacceptable human behavior. At some point we have to learn the difference between what is socially acceptable and what is not, or pay the price.
I'm glad your therapist is helping you now. Keep talking and posting ... communication is good.
Snowie
> > Let me be clear about the rules...I can not let the darker, more ominous side of me come out because that would be too disturbing for you guys. That is o.k. I really didn't mean to scary you guys. But I always had this theory that if people really get to know me, they would be put off by me. But those who do not really know me, likes me.
>
> Right now, it is really more important for me to have people to talk to than to worry about my darker thoughts. I think my therapist finally is zoning in on my other side now. But she said that she really can not help me if I do not admit that I have a problem. All she can do is to keep me out of trouble. Like telling me I am forbidden from calling up those therapists and such. I think in our next session, I'll tell her that if I let people to really get to know me, I scare them and myself. That is a problem isn't it. Plus, I get very dizzy and disillusional when I am between the two state of mind.
>
> I am happy that I am welcome here. That is all I wanted in the first place.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
> Tei,
> >
> > I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by quoting you, but all we have are words on the Internet. Consequently, by our words we are known.
> >
> > You are a most intriguing person. Like Shar said, just be yourself and you'll be fine. We all have our own problems in real life as well. I would be lying if I said I didn't obsess during those two years about the mailman. I did, and this only happened about 5 years ago. We're all human, but we all have a need to be liked for who we are -- not for who we want to be.
> >
> > I don't know who you are, but I'm a 44-year-old woman from Florida. I have social anxiety, general anxiety disorder, and who knows what else. I've just started therapy myself, and I like my therapist so far. I hate meds, so I take only what I need and no more.
> >
> > Welcome.
> >
> > Snowie
> >
> >
> > > > I want to clarify something. I do not fantasize about the therapist all the time. It is just that at the moment I was writing the thread, I thought of starting with them since this service is about psychiatry, you know. I obviously misunderstood the rhythm and the conversations that went on this board. So, when I came back under the name, Rzip, I tried to model after some of the other writers in my writing. All I want is for people to talk back and forth to me. In my normal day life, I am extremely shy and I am just unable to carry on any substantial prolonged conversations with people. I thought on this board, I can share some of my most inner thoughts. I guess I got my hopes up again.
> > >
> > > I really do not mind the critical responses I have been getting. It does get me to thinking about myself. I never thought the responses would be so strong. I however do not think it is very nice to attack me, or rather use my words against me. I just think that is a bit abusive, and it hurts my feelings. But whatever you guys want to say is fine. All I really want is to talk back and forth to people.
> > >
> > > Someone mentioned that they do not know who I am, but isn't that what makes this service so safe for the depth of communication that goes on here.
> > >
> > > Rzip
Posted by Greg on October 16, 2000, at 8:22:42
In reply to Re: Support to what end? Caroline's post revisited., posted by coral on October 16, 2000, at 6:40:23
All,
I need some clarification on what's being discussed here. As most of you know I came out in opposition against the original post that's being discussed here. My problem was not with the opinion expressed in the post, but the way it was chosen to be expressed.
I guess I'm asking about ground rules and guidelines. What type of posts might I expect support for and which ones can I expect a verbally abusive response? If I tell you that I'm having a fantasy about Friend A or Friend L, can I expect that some of you will search thru the posts and fine all the "handles" beginning with A or L and then accuse me of talking about that person? If I choose to not take your advice on a subject and continue to support my own opinion, will I be accused of not paying attention or playing games?
I think the real issue here is not whether Pritzker/rzip/Lei has problems which need to be addressed, I agree with all of you that is the case and I have said as much before. I think the issue is despite what your opinions may be, this person has a right to receive those opinions from all of us in a respectful and supportive manner. I think that following up a two paragraph assault
on a person's character by saying "I could be wrong", or I hope I haven't offended you here" is simply ludicrous. It's like having your boss tell you "You did a wonderful job on the project I gave you....but"), it becomes meaningless. Leveling unfounded critizisms or character assasination without facts is just plain wrong.So, I guess I'm asking some of you to clarify what is acceptable to write in order to receive support and constructive feedback at this site.
Remember that my point here is not about anyone's right to express their opinion, it's about the words you choose to express them.Before responding, I'd ask you to go back and read the post in question here, put yourself in the shoes of a person who is lost, confused and seeking support and then decide how you would feel if the post had been left to you.
Quite frankly, this whole thing leaves me wondering how much of my life I can feel free to share here in the future. I've been a member of the Babble family for a long time and I find this whole thing very distressing.
Greg
Posted by Mark H. on October 16, 2000, at 19:46:06
In reply to Re: A little clarification please...., posted by Greg on October 16, 2000, at 8:22:42
Dear Greg,
Your request for clarification is worded in such a way that there isn't a lot of room to offer you observations or advice without risking offending you, so I'm going to say what I'd say if you were my best friend.
You wrote, "I find this whole thing very distressing." That's clear. There is only one person responsible for your distress (or any other feeling you have); do you know who that person is?
"...how much of my life I can feel free to share here in the future," is an implied threat of abandonment and/or withholding, and it is predicated on someone else controlling your feelings. Were you abandoned? Did others withhold affection and respect if they did not like your opinion or attitude? Is that how you enforce agreement in your relationships with others?
"...what is acceptable to write in order to receive support and constructive feedback at this site" is a disingenuous question, because you have already twice said that you thought Caroline's response to Pritzker was a personal attack and "abusive," even though others have already said they perceived it otherwise. Your question is a trap, and as such it's less than honest.
Do you think that only one point of view can be "right," and that any other, ipso facto, must be "wrong"? Do you recognize "I have to be right or I'm an awful person" as a thought typical of recovering alcoholics and not necessarily accurate or useful?
When I put myself in the shoes of the original poster, as you suggested, I am grateful for the thoughtful, careful, and progressively more direct responses that were written, including especially Caroline's response (given the lack of substantive feedback to the previous responses).
It is not particularly compassionate, kind or supportive (in my opinion) to coddle people who are doing bad behavior because we wouldn't want to risk hurting their feelings. As my old therapist liked to put it, if a child runs into traffic, you don't say in measured tones, "Honey, please consider the safety aspects of your behavior." It's not much consolation at the kid's funeral to say, "Well, I never once raised my voice to him."
You wrote, "It's like having your boss tell you 'you did a wonderful job on the project I gave you....but,' it becomes meaningless." This is an important thing for you to have shared, because believe it or not, the compliment does NOT become meaningless for many of us, maybe even most of us. In fact, it's the way life really is. Things are very rarely all or nothing, all good or all bad, or even right or wrong. I'm a good person, AND I have a lot I need to work on. I did well on a project yesterday, AND today I am procrastinating. I'm kind and considerate, AND sometimes I'm a completely self-centered jerk.
If you let "accurate self-knowledge" replace "how you feel about yourself," your feelings don't have to flop around based on what other people think, and your boss can't take away the value of his or her compliment by saying "but...". If his compliment is accurate, it's great to receive the feedback. If her criticism is valid, it's good to have the course-correction. One shouldn't puff you up, and the other shouldn't knock the wind out of you, right?
Probably the most liberating thing you could do on this issue/thread would be to state that you accept the POSSIBILITY that you might have been wrong; that YOU might have been the one jumping to conclusions and "leveling unfounded criticisms"; that maybe stern support isn't necessarily "abusive"; and that you're still OK just the way you are.
You are a respected and valued contributor to this board, and nothing you've written (or that I've written, for that matter) changes or affects that fact. I appreciate you.
Mark H.
Posted by shar on October 16, 2000, at 21:42:13
In reply to Re: A little clarification please...., posted by Mark H. on October 16, 2000, at 19:46:06
Greg,
Your strong suit is compassion, caring, support and the wonderful things that help people heal. And you can blast someone if you think they are inappropriate or harsh. That said, I can tell how strongly you felt that Pritzker should have been treated more gently or not potentially hurt by someone.If you did, action for action, what Pritzker did, and because I know you, I would have jumped in sooner with both feet demanding to know what the hell you were doing to yourself. And why you weren't getting help. I would not have been nice. I might even have just picked up and gone to get you to be sure you got help.
But, that's not how you post. And, I think in general, posters here do like to be kindly and concerned, and this was one occasion that some felt called for stronger action; and I think that also came out of concern.
Take good care of yourself.
Shar
Posted by Rzip on October 16, 2000, at 21:47:57
In reply to Re: A little clarification please...., posted by Mark H. on October 16, 2000, at 19:46:06
> Everyone,
O.k. I get the point. I was wrong to think and act the way that I did.
I have been listening and reading all the posts. I understand that first of all, people are mad at me because I touched a nerve and was acting out in an inappropriate way. Then, people are mad at me because I did not acknowledge the good intentioned advices given. And now everyone is talking around me which is more hurtful than anything else. I want people to talk to ME. You know we can talk about how our day has been or something.
But I guess no one wants to talk to me now that they found out I am so self-centered. That's sad. I started telling my mentor at work that I suffer from depression and that's why I seem so disoriented these last couple of days. I guess he is finding out that he can not count on me as much as he thought. I also worked for him during the summer and I was able to devote my heart and soul to his research. So when school started, he kind of expected the same from me-- but I couldn't exactly deliver because I am getting ill again. I think this is the first time I intentionally disappointed him. It just got to be too much last week.
I know that you guys are thinking that I am focusing internally, on myself again. So, what do you want me to do to help you? I looked through the threads and except for the ones that I tried to answer (I noticed that no one respond to my follow-ups afterwards), I really do not seem to be able to connect to you guys.
I do feel your pain and I am amazed at the degree of honesty and upfrontness that you guys are able to communicate with one another. I am thinking that perhaps it is better if people do not actually respond to my threads, and I'll just check-in every so often and read and learn from you guys. But then, it goes to my initial point: I feel left out. But then perhaps I deserve to be.
Sincerely,
Yours trulyDear Greg,
>
> Your request for clarification is worded in such a way that there isn't a lot of room to offer you observations or advice without risking offending you, so I'm going to say what I'd say if you were my best friend.
>
> You wrote, "I find this whole thing very distressing." That's clear. There is only one person responsible for your distress (or any other feeling you have); do you know who that person is?
>
> "...how much of my life I can feel free to share here in the future," is an implied threat of abandonment and/or withholding, and it is predicated on someone else controlling your feelings. Were you abandoned? Did others withhold affection and respect if they did not like your opinion or attitude? Is that how you enforce agreement in your relationships with others?
>
> "...what is acceptable to write in order to receive support and constructive feedback at this site" is a disingenuous question, because you have already twice said that you thought Caroline's response to Pritzker was a personal attack and "abusive," even though others have already said they perceived it otherwise. Your question is a trap, and as such it's less than honest.
>
> Do you think that only one point of view can be "right," and that any other, ipso facto, must be "wrong"? Do you recognize "I have to be right or I'm an awful person" as a thought typical of recovering alcoholics and not necessarily accurate or useful?
>
> When I put myself in the shoes of the original poster, as you suggested, I am grateful for the thoughtful, careful, and progressively more direct responses that were written, including especially Caroline's response (given the lack of substantive feedback to the previous responses).
>
> It is not particularly compassionate, kind or supportive (in my opinion) to coddle people who are doing bad behavior because we wouldn't want to risk hurting their feelings. As my old therapist liked to put it, if a child runs into traffic, you don't say in measured tones, "Honey, please consider the safety aspects of your behavior." It's not much consolation at the kid's funeral to say, "Well, I never once raised my voice to him."
>
> You wrote, "It's like having your boss tell you 'you did a wonderful job on the project I gave you....but,' it becomes meaningless." This is an important thing for you to have shared, because believe it or not, the compliment does NOT become meaningless for many of us, maybe even most of us. In fact, it's the way life really is. Things are very rarely all or nothing, all good or all bad, or even right or wrong. I'm a good person, AND I have a lot I need to work on. I did well on a project yesterday, AND today I am procrastinating. I'm kind and considerate, AND sometimes I'm a completely self-centered jerk.
>
> If you let "accurate self-knowledge" replace "how you feel about yourself," your feelings don't have to flop around based on what other people think, and your boss can't take away the value of his or her compliment by saying "but...". If his compliment is accurate, it's great to receive the feedback. If her criticism is valid, it's good to have the course-correction. One shouldn't puff you up, and the other shouldn't knock the wind out of you, right?
>
> Probably the most liberating thing you could do on this issue/thread would be to state that you accept the POSSIBILITY that you might have been wrong; that YOU might have been the one jumping to conclusions and "leveling unfounded criticisms"; that maybe stern support isn't necessarily "abusive"; and that you're still OK just the way you are.
>
> You are a respected and valued contributor to this board, and nothing you've written (or that I've written, for that matter) changes or affects that fact. I appreciate you.
>
> Mark H.
Posted by Greg on October 16, 2000, at 22:09:56
In reply to Re: A little clarification please...., posted by Mark H. on October 16, 2000, at 19:46:06
Mark,
I'm going to do something I dearly hate and that's write my responses directly below yours.
> Dear Greg,
>
> Your request for clarification is worded in such a way that there isn't a lot of room to offer you observations or advice without risking offending you, so I'm going to say what I'd say if you were my best friend.I think my observations leave a lot of room for open-ended conversation. I express my feelings, no on else's. I appreciate your observations, I always do. I neither asked for, nor expected, your advice however. But that is your choice to give it as it my choice to ignore it. As for offending me, you only said one thing that offended me and I'll get to that when I reach that paragraph. As for the rest, it is only your opinion and you're entitled to it.
>
> You wrote, "I find this whole thing very distressing." That's clear. There is only one person responsible for your distress (or any other feeling you have); do you know who that person is?I use "I" sentences for a reason. I don't want anyone to ever get the impression that I'm speaking on anyone else's behalf. Apparently the feeling here is that I was speaking for others. I don't recall, and a re-read of my post verifies, that I never blamed anyone for my distress. And yes Mark, I do know who is responsible for my feelings. Did you feel blamed? Do you know who's responsible for that?
>
> "...how much of my life I can feel free to share here in the future," is an implied threat of abandonment and/or withholding, and it is predicated on someone else controlling your feelings. Were you abandoned? Did others withhold affection and respect if they did not like your opinion or attitude? Is that how you enforce agreement in your relationships with others?I think this is a completely valid feeling. No one controls my feelings except me. Are you by any chance a therapist? If not, your comments certainly sound like a person who wants to be. No, I wasn't abandoned. No, attention or respect was not dependant on my attitude or opinion. Was yours? Is your need to psychoanalyize (sp?) due to this? How I handle my relationships is, bottom-line, none of your business.
>
> "...what is acceptable to write in order to receive support and constructive feedback at this site" is a disingenuous question, because you have already twice said that you thought Caroline's response to Pritzker was a personal attack and "abusive," even though others have already said they perceived it otherwise. Your question is a trap, and as such it's less than honest.Who are you to judge my honesty? Compare apples and apples Mark. Your comment lacks any form of cohesion and is simple and transparent attempt to avoid answering an important question. How others perceived what was said is their business. Please stick to how YOU feel, I did. If the others feel a need to respond, they'll do so.
>
> Do you think that only one point of view can be "right," and that any other, ipso facto, must be "wrong"? Do you recognize "I have to be right or I'm an awful person" as a thought typical of recovering alcoholics and not necessarily accurate or useful?OK, here's where you offended me. Don't EVER be so pretentious as to imply that my alcoholism dictates how I think. I work hard every day of my life to discover who I am. If you too are an alcoholic, then you'll understand that comment with crystal clarity. If not, then I'll understand how you can be so as unfeeling as to have made it in the first place. I know when my "stinking thinking" is controlling my thoughts. This is not one of those times. You are out of line. If you want to make this personal, go ahead. But be aware I won't cower in a corner or run away. You're knack for "creative writing" doesn't intimidate me in the least. As for your right or wrong question, shouldn't you be asking that of yourself. And once again, speak for yourself. Let the others do their own talking.
>
> When I put myself in the shoes of the original poster, as you suggested, I am grateful for the thoughtful, careful, and progressively more direct responses that were written, including especially Caroline's response (given the lack of substantive feedback to the previous responses).If you see that as thoughtful, caring and supportive, the thought of what you see mean cruel and rude is simply beyond my humble comprehension. Frankly, I didn't see a great deal of progressive responses. I did see "I couldn't have put it better myself" and "what a wonderful response, I agree with you". Do I understand you to say that because no one else has yet to come out with the same opinion as mine, that makes my opinion invalid?
>
> It is not particularly compassionate, kind or supportive (in my opinion) to coddle people who are doing bad behavior because we wouldn't want to risk hurting their feelings. As my old therapist liked to put it, if a child runs into traffic, you don't say in measured tones, "Honey, please consider the safety aspects of your behavior." It's not much consolation at the kid's funeral to say, "Well, I never once raised my voice to him."Apples and apples Mark. I said on numerous occasions that I felt the same way as all of you about the need of the person to seek help. I still feel that way. Tough love has it's place and time. It doesn't fit everywhere despite what you might think. And as far as your child in traffic analogy, I run into traffic and save my child, and then as calmly and lovingly as I can I explain why they shouldn't do it again. Being abusive in my explanation does not get the point across and destroys self-esteem.
>
> You wrote, "It's like having your boss tell you 'you did a wonderful job on the project I gave you....but,' it becomes meaningless." This is an important thing for you to have shared, because believe it or not, the compliment does NOT become meaningless for many of us, maybe even most of us. In fact, it's the way life really is. Things are very rarely all or nothing, all good or all bad, or even right or wrong. I'm a good person, AND I have a lot I need to work on. I did well on a project yesterday, AND today I am procrastinating. I'm kind and considerate, AND sometimes I'm a completely self-centered jerk.If being treated in a disrespectful manner is what heals you, go for it. I like receiving feedback, positive and negative, provided the person does it with respect. If negative affirmations are what you need to survive, that's your issue. I will never do that to you. And I must say that you are magnificent at quoting my sentences out of context. Hopefully everyone will read the entire post to see that there was much more to it.
>
> If you let "accurate self-knowledge" replace "how you feel about yourself," your feelings don't have to flop around based on what other people think, and your boss can't take away the value of his or her compliment by saying "but...". If his compliment is accurate, it's great to receive the feedback. If her criticism is valid, it's good to have the course-correction. One shouldn't puff you up, and the other shouldn't knock the wind out of you, right?Why is it you feel that my decision to voice an opinion that reflects against yours is "accurate self-knowledge", but Caroline's was totally acceptable? Are you a person that denies the rights of others when their opinions don't reflect yours? I believe you accused me of that earlier. Perhaps taking a good look in the mirror is in order for you. Caroline's opinion didn't affect me one way or the other. But see Mark, I'm a hippie, a child of the 60's. I learned to fight for what I believe in. Was I always right? Hell no. But the important thing is to fight for what you believe in, accept your defeats with dignity and admit when you're wrong. I'm capable of all three. I don't feel that I'm wrong here despite your attempts to make me feel that way. There was an indignity done here, and as is my right, I spoke out on it. But at no time did I insist, infer or try to coerse anyone into to sharing my opinion. In my humble opinion, that is what you are tryng to do to me.
>
> Probably the most liberating thing you could do on this issue/thread would be to state that you accept the POSSIBILITY that you might have been wrong; that YOU might have been the one jumping to conclusions and "leveling unfounded criticisms"; that maybe stern support isn't necessarily "abusive"; and that you're still OK just the way you are.I am liberated thru my beliefs, my ability to take a stand even when it is the unpopular choice to do so. In my opinion I am not wrong, in yours, I am. That is what makes this country a wonderful place to live, we have the right to disagree. In some countries you can be jailed for not sharing the opinions of your countrymen, even put to death. Mark, I am fine with who I am for the most part, the parts I'm not fine with have nothing to do with this issue. Nothing you have said here has changed my opinion one iota. I will now and forever stand up for anyone who is disrespected, not just for them but for myself. I would not have been as tolerant of this treatment as Lei was. I would have given as good as I got. She asked for help, never did she say "feel free to abuse me if you think it will help" Most of you gave valuable input and did so without being destructive. It can be done. It seems that the one who has the problem with who I am is you.
>
> You are a respected and valued contributor to this board, and nothing you've written (or that I've written, for that matter) changes or affects that fact. I appreciate you.Thank you for the compliment, I appreciate strokes. I return it in kind, I have always enjoyed reading your posts and think you have a marvelous writing style. I wish I could write half as well. Be assured that nothing you have said will affect my feelings toward you as a member of this/my "family.
As Caroline and I have chosen to do, I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree.
Peace,
Greg
>
> Mark H.
Posted by quilter on October 16, 2000, at 23:16:51
In reply to Re: A little clarification please.... » Mark H., posted by Greg on October 16, 2000, at 22:09:56
Rzip, If you read through other threads you will see that they can become quite tangled. This thread involved you only tangentially until you decided to post also. I'm glad you did. Then the thread wandered back to its original topic (sort of). There is no telling where it might go from here. Only if a thread was started by you to ask for specific opinions should you worry if it takes unexpected turns. In this last instance I would recommend that you restate your problem in order to try to get the thread back to where it needs to be in order to be of help to you. Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious. Quilter
Posted by Mark H. on October 16, 2000, at 23:23:24
In reply to Re: A little clarification please.... » Mark H., posted by Greg on October 16, 2000, at 22:09:56
Dear Greg,
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I took a chance addressing you in the way I would a close friend after starting half-a-dozen responses to your request for clarification without finding a more tactful way to state my opinions and observations. Obviously, since you're offended, I misfired, and I wound up wasting a couple of hours of my time -- and yours -- hoping you would hear whatever validity there may have been in my letter, despite the awkward form it was in. Aaack! I apologize and hope we find whatever common ground is there between us sometime in the future.
Thank you for the compliments and for your openness to continued dialog.
With respect,
Mark H.
Posted by Rzip on October 16, 2000, at 23:42:19
In reply to Re: A little clarification please...., posted by quilter on October 16, 2000, at 23:16:51
Quilter,
Thank you for redirecting me to the tangle here. I am actually getting the right support that I need on some of the other threads. I guess when you put a group of us, who are all suffering from our individual pains, things tend to get a bit tangled. That is o.k. I guess as long as one is able to channel through and be patient and cordial. I do not think there is such a thing as misfiring as long as one keep in mind that everyone on this board is in distress to one degree or another. Every postings contain a grain of personal transference. And it is really a therapist's job to figure out the hidden interactions that is going on here.
I think as long as we write with the intention of being supportive; that we show that we care enough to ponder the dilemna...sometimes that is enough.
Yours truly> Rzip, If you read through other threads you will see that they can become quite tangled. This thread involved you only tangentially until you decided to post also. I'm glad you did. Then the thread wandered back to its original topic (sort of). There is no telling where it might go from here. Only if a thread was started by you to ask for specific opinions should you worry if it takes unexpected turns. In this last instance I would recommend that you restate your problem in order to try to get the thread back to where it needs to be in order to be of help to you. Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious. Quilter
Posted by Snowie on October 17, 2000, at 7:15:09
In reply to Re: A little clarification please...., posted by Greg on October 16, 2000, at 8:22:42
Greg,
I don't intend to try to answer this because I think the posts pretty much speak for themselves. Some will see it one way; others will see it another. I think it speaks volumes that Pritzker/Tei/Rzip is still here (which is good), but where is Caroline?
Another thing I've noticed is how very "cliquish" this Board is. We tend to respond to people we know quicker than those we don't. We only seem to really pay attention when someone new comes along who demands attention. However, you'll see many new names where a person quietly asks a question and no one ever responds. They leave thinking this is not a place for support. I know, because when I first posted here a long time ago, no one responded. I left, but came back months later.
Tei is getting a lot of support here, and I hope that continues. Where is the support for the quiet majority?
Snowie
> All,
>
> I need some clarification on what's being discussed here. As most of you know I came out in opposition against the original post that's being discussed here. My problem was not with the opinion expressed in the post, but the way it was chosen to be expressed.
>
> I guess I'm asking about ground rules and guidelines. What type of posts might I expect support for and which ones can I expect a verbally abusive response? If I tell you that I'm having a fantasy about Friend A or Friend L, can I expect that some of you will search thru the posts and fine all the "handles" beginning with A or L and then accuse me of talking about that person? If I choose to not take your advice on a subject and continue to support my own opinion, will I be accused of not paying attention or playing games?
>
> I think the real issue here is not whether Pritzker/rzip/Lei has problems which need to be addressed, I agree with all of you that is the case and I have said as much before. I think the issue is despite what your opinions may be, this person has a right to receive those opinions from all of us in a respectful and supportive manner. I think that following up a two paragraph assault
> on a person's character by saying "I could be wrong", or I hope I haven't offended you here" is simply ludicrous. It's like having your boss tell you "You did a wonderful job on the project I gave you....but"), it becomes meaningless. Leveling unfounded critizisms or character assasination without facts is just plain wrong.
>
> So, I guess I'm asking some of you to clarify what is acceptable to write in order to receive support and constructive feedback at this site.
> Remember that my point here is not about anyone's right to express their opinion, it's about the words you choose to express them.
>
> Before responding, I'd ask you to go back and read the post in question here, put yourself in the shoes of a person who is lost, confused and seeking support and then decide how you would feel if the post had been left to you.
>
> Quite frankly, this whole thing leaves me wondering how much of my life I can feel free to share here in the future. I've been a member of the Babble family for a long time and I find this whole thing very distressing.
>
> Greg
Posted by Greg on October 17, 2000, at 7:27:22
In reply to Re: A little clarification please...., posted by Mark H. on October 16, 2000, at 23:23:24
Mark,
There is never a need to apologize for stating your opinion. I respect you taking a stand for what you believe in. Any offense I may have felt last night is gone. I believe that we have much more common ground than you might think and I consider you to be a friend. I don't think you wasted your time, you said what you felt needed to be said and so did I. Expressing feelings is never a waste of time. I don't know about you, but I've spent too much of my life doing that lately bottling mine up.
So now, I let this thing go and move on. There are other things going on in both our lives, I'm sure, that are more deserving of our energies.
Have a peaceful day,
Greg> Dear Greg,
>
> Thank you for your thoughtful response. I took a chance addressing you in the way I would a close friend after starting half-a-dozen responses to your request for clarification without finding a more tactful way to state my opinions and observations. Obviously, since you're offended, I misfired, and I wound up wasting a couple of hours of my time -- and yours -- hoping you would hear whatever validity there may have been in my letter, despite the awkward form it was in. Aaack! I apologize and hope we find whatever common ground is there between us sometime in the future.
>
> Thank you for the compliments and for your openness to continued dialog.
>
> With respect,
>
> Mark H.
Posted by Mark H. on October 17, 2000, at 11:10:51
In reply to Re: A little clarification please....All, posted by Snowie on October 17, 2000, at 7:15:09
Hi Snowie,
I always get a lot from your postings, and once again you've raised some important questions. I'd like to respond for myself, realizing that I don't speak for others.
Sometimes I can't get back to the board for days or even weeks, depending usually on my workload. Now, for instance, there's a slight pause at work, and I may actively respond for several days in a row to all sorts of postings. My responses range from two-liners ("ask your physician if there is another medicine your kids could try; the meds should help, not make matters worse") to lengthy forays into new territory, where I'm sometimes (hopefully) skillful and sometimes way off base.
But more to your point: I've told my story in detail several times and from multiple perspectives. I've offered my opinion on as many major subjects as I believe I have something to add to. Usually I won't respond to a post that has already been dealt with superbly by one of our generous regulars, or one on a topic that I've addressed previously at length. It's important to give other people a chance to step up and speak.
For me, it's not a matter of ignoring the regulars and only responding to someone new who is asking for help or feedback, it's just a matter of whether I have anything useful or substantive to add. Likewise, I prefer not to respond at all if I think my comments would be unkind or unhelpful or not well received. But the latter requires testing the water sometimes.
I think it is both practical and effective for people who expeience an affinity with a poster to be the ones to respond. So yes, over time, I tend to "talk" with certain people more than with others, not because I imagine myself to belong to a clique (that's ironically painful/humorous to me as a chronic outsider), but because that's where I may be of use.
For example, there is plenty of room on this board for people in their early twenties to discuss the issues and problems experienced at their age: jobs, beginning careers, finishing education, dating, personal ambition, first marriages, just beginning therapy, etc. But the perspectives of those of us who are 30 years older may not be as sympathetic or helpful as good responses from people their own age, who are successfully dealing with similar issues from the same set of personal (and current) experiences.
I sincerely hope that the support for the quiet majority you mentioned is included in all of our responses. I've received correspondence from people off-list who regularly lurk but have posted perhaps only once or twice, or not at all.Are you getting what you need, Snowie? You give so generously and freely of your heart and mind and considerable people and legal skills. I'm glad you're here.
Mark H.
Posted by Greg on October 17, 2000, at 14:12:35
In reply to Re: A little clarification please....All, posted by Snowie on October 17, 2000, at 7:15:09
Snowie,
It's good to hear from you. I hope you are well.
I don't know where Caroline is. I haven't seen a post from her since our last discussion. I am satisfied that we worked out any differences we were having. I hope that is still the case.
Your observation about cliques comes every so often and you are not the only one who feels this way from what I've read. I can only speak for myself on this. I read almost every post. I respond when I feel I have something of value to offer. Sometimes when I see a person post who is obviously in pain, I'll post if only to let them know that they are in my thoughts. It's important to know that someone cares. Sometimes the subject is something I know nothing about, so I don't post. I would be remiss to attempt to post to a person on a subject that I know nothing about just for the sake of posting. Although I will occasionally look up a URL for someone if I think it will help. But I can honestly say that I have never purposely avoided posting to a new person and have in fact posted to many. Occasionally (although not very often) it is a simple matter of not having time.
I will continue to do my best to support everyone here, new people, the old guard and everyone in between just the everyone has done for me.
My best to you,
Greg
> Greg,
>
> I don't intend to try to answer this because I think the posts pretty much speak for themselves. Some will see it one way; others will see it another. I think it speaks volumes that Pritzker/Tei/Rzip is still here (which is good), but where is Caroline?
>
> Another thing I've noticed is how very "cliquish" this Board is. We tend to respond to people we know quicker than those we don't. We only seem to really pay attention when someone new comes along who demands attention. However, you'll see many new names where a person quietly asks a question and no one ever responds. They leave thinking this is not a place for support. I know, because when I first posted here a long time ago, no one responded. I left, but came back months later.
>
> Tei is getting a lot of support here, and I hope that continues. Where is the support for the quiet majority?
>
> Snowie
>
>
> > All,
> >
> > I need some clarification on what's being discussed here. As most of you know I came out in opposition against the original post that's being discussed here. My problem was not with the opinion expressed in the post, but the way it was chosen to be expressed.
> >
> > I guess I'm asking about ground rules and guidelines. What type of posts might I expect support for and which ones can I expect a verbally abusive response? If I tell you that I'm having a fantasy about Friend A or Friend L, can I expect that some of you will search thru the posts and fine all the "handles" beginning with A or L and then accuse me of talking about that person? If I choose to not take your advice on a subject and continue to support my own opinion, will I be accused of not paying attention or playing games?
> >
> > I think the real issue here is not whether Pritzker/rzip/Lei has problems which need to be addressed, I agree with all of you that is the case and I have said as much before. I think the issue is despite what your opinions may be, this person has a right to receive those opinions from all of us in a respectful and supportive manner. I think that following up a two paragraph assault
> > on a person's character by saying "I could be wrong", or I hope I haven't offended you here" is simply ludicrous. It's like having your boss tell you "You did a wonderful job on the project I gave you....but"), it becomes meaningless. Leveling unfounded critizisms or character assasination without facts is just plain wrong.
> >
> > So, I guess I'm asking some of you to clarify what is acceptable to write in order to receive support and constructive feedback at this site.
> > Remember that my point here is not about anyone's right to express their opinion, it's about the words you choose to express them.
> >
> > Before responding, I'd ask you to go back and read the post in question here, put yourself in the shoes of a person who is lost, confused and seeking support and then decide how you would feel if the post had been left to you.
> >
> > Quite frankly, this whole thing leaves me wondering how much of my life I can feel free to share here in the future. I've been a member of the Babble family for a long time and I find this whole thing very distressing.
> >
> > Greg
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