Posted by Greg on October 16, 2000, at 22:09:56
In reply to Re: A little clarification please...., posted by Mark H. on October 16, 2000, at 19:46:06
Mark,
I'm going to do something I dearly hate and that's write my responses directly below yours.
> Dear Greg,
>
> Your request for clarification is worded in such a way that there isn't a lot of room to offer you observations or advice without risking offending you, so I'm going to say what I'd say if you were my best friend.I think my observations leave a lot of room for open-ended conversation. I express my feelings, no on else's. I appreciate your observations, I always do. I neither asked for, nor expected, your advice however. But that is your choice to give it as it my choice to ignore it. As for offending me, you only said one thing that offended me and I'll get to that when I reach that paragraph. As for the rest, it is only your opinion and you're entitled to it.
>
> You wrote, "I find this whole thing very distressing." That's clear. There is only one person responsible for your distress (or any other feeling you have); do you know who that person is?I use "I" sentences for a reason. I don't want anyone to ever get the impression that I'm speaking on anyone else's behalf. Apparently the feeling here is that I was speaking for others. I don't recall, and a re-read of my post verifies, that I never blamed anyone for my distress. And yes Mark, I do know who is responsible for my feelings. Did you feel blamed? Do you know who's responsible for that?
>
> "...how much of my life I can feel free to share here in the future," is an implied threat of abandonment and/or withholding, and it is predicated on someone else controlling your feelings. Were you abandoned? Did others withhold affection and respect if they did not like your opinion or attitude? Is that how you enforce agreement in your relationships with others?I think this is a completely valid feeling. No one controls my feelings except me. Are you by any chance a therapist? If not, your comments certainly sound like a person who wants to be. No, I wasn't abandoned. No, attention or respect was not dependant on my attitude or opinion. Was yours? Is your need to psychoanalyize (sp?) due to this? How I handle my relationships is, bottom-line, none of your business.
>
> "...what is acceptable to write in order to receive support and constructive feedback at this site" is a disingenuous question, because you have already twice said that you thought Caroline's response to Pritzker was a personal attack and "abusive," even though others have already said they perceived it otherwise. Your question is a trap, and as such it's less than honest.Who are you to judge my honesty? Compare apples and apples Mark. Your comment lacks any form of cohesion and is simple and transparent attempt to avoid answering an important question. How others perceived what was said is their business. Please stick to how YOU feel, I did. If the others feel a need to respond, they'll do so.
>
> Do you think that only one point of view can be "right," and that any other, ipso facto, must be "wrong"? Do you recognize "I have to be right or I'm an awful person" as a thought typical of recovering alcoholics and not necessarily accurate or useful?OK, here's where you offended me. Don't EVER be so pretentious as to imply that my alcoholism dictates how I think. I work hard every day of my life to discover who I am. If you too are an alcoholic, then you'll understand that comment with crystal clarity. If not, then I'll understand how you can be so as unfeeling as to have made it in the first place. I know when my "stinking thinking" is controlling my thoughts. This is not one of those times. You are out of line. If you want to make this personal, go ahead. But be aware I won't cower in a corner or run away. You're knack for "creative writing" doesn't intimidate me in the least. As for your right or wrong question, shouldn't you be asking that of yourself. And once again, speak for yourself. Let the others do their own talking.
>
> When I put myself in the shoes of the original poster, as you suggested, I am grateful for the thoughtful, careful, and progressively more direct responses that were written, including especially Caroline's response (given the lack of substantive feedback to the previous responses).If you see that as thoughtful, caring and supportive, the thought of what you see mean cruel and rude is simply beyond my humble comprehension. Frankly, I didn't see a great deal of progressive responses. I did see "I couldn't have put it better myself" and "what a wonderful response, I agree with you". Do I understand you to say that because no one else has yet to come out with the same opinion as mine, that makes my opinion invalid?
>
> It is not particularly compassionate, kind or supportive (in my opinion) to coddle people who are doing bad behavior because we wouldn't want to risk hurting their feelings. As my old therapist liked to put it, if a child runs into traffic, you don't say in measured tones, "Honey, please consider the safety aspects of your behavior." It's not much consolation at the kid's funeral to say, "Well, I never once raised my voice to him."Apples and apples Mark. I said on numerous occasions that I felt the same way as all of you about the need of the person to seek help. I still feel that way. Tough love has it's place and time. It doesn't fit everywhere despite what you might think. And as far as your child in traffic analogy, I run into traffic and save my child, and then as calmly and lovingly as I can I explain why they shouldn't do it again. Being abusive in my explanation does not get the point across and destroys self-esteem.
>
> You wrote, "It's like having your boss tell you 'you did a wonderful job on the project I gave you....but,' it becomes meaningless." This is an important thing for you to have shared, because believe it or not, the compliment does NOT become meaningless for many of us, maybe even most of us. In fact, it's the way life really is. Things are very rarely all or nothing, all good or all bad, or even right or wrong. I'm a good person, AND I have a lot I need to work on. I did well on a project yesterday, AND today I am procrastinating. I'm kind and considerate, AND sometimes I'm a completely self-centered jerk.If being treated in a disrespectful manner is what heals you, go for it. I like receiving feedback, positive and negative, provided the person does it with respect. If negative affirmations are what you need to survive, that's your issue. I will never do that to you. And I must say that you are magnificent at quoting my sentences out of context. Hopefully everyone will read the entire post to see that there was much more to it.
>
> If you let "accurate self-knowledge" replace "how you feel about yourself," your feelings don't have to flop around based on what other people think, and your boss can't take away the value of his or her compliment by saying "but...". If his compliment is accurate, it's great to receive the feedback. If her criticism is valid, it's good to have the course-correction. One shouldn't puff you up, and the other shouldn't knock the wind out of you, right?Why is it you feel that my decision to voice an opinion that reflects against yours is "accurate self-knowledge", but Caroline's was totally acceptable? Are you a person that denies the rights of others when their opinions don't reflect yours? I believe you accused me of that earlier. Perhaps taking a good look in the mirror is in order for you. Caroline's opinion didn't affect me one way or the other. But see Mark, I'm a hippie, a child of the 60's. I learned to fight for what I believe in. Was I always right? Hell no. But the important thing is to fight for what you believe in, accept your defeats with dignity and admit when you're wrong. I'm capable of all three. I don't feel that I'm wrong here despite your attempts to make me feel that way. There was an indignity done here, and as is my right, I spoke out on it. But at no time did I insist, infer or try to coerse anyone into to sharing my opinion. In my humble opinion, that is what you are tryng to do to me.
>
> Probably the most liberating thing you could do on this issue/thread would be to state that you accept the POSSIBILITY that you might have been wrong; that YOU might have been the one jumping to conclusions and "leveling unfounded criticisms"; that maybe stern support isn't necessarily "abusive"; and that you're still OK just the way you are.I am liberated thru my beliefs, my ability to take a stand even when it is the unpopular choice to do so. In my opinion I am not wrong, in yours, I am. That is what makes this country a wonderful place to live, we have the right to disagree. In some countries you can be jailed for not sharing the opinions of your countrymen, even put to death. Mark, I am fine with who I am for the most part, the parts I'm not fine with have nothing to do with this issue. Nothing you have said here has changed my opinion one iota. I will now and forever stand up for anyone who is disrespected, not just for them but for myself. I would not have been as tolerant of this treatment as Lei was. I would have given as good as I got. She asked for help, never did she say "feel free to abuse me if you think it will help" Most of you gave valuable input and did so without being destructive. It can be done. It seems that the one who has the problem with who I am is you.
>
> You are a respected and valued contributor to this board, and nothing you've written (or that I've written, for that matter) changes or affects that fact. I appreciate you.Thank you for the compliment, I appreciate strokes. I return it in kind, I have always enjoyed reading your posts and think you have a marvelous writing style. I wish I could write half as well. Be assured that nothing you have said will affect my feelings toward you as a member of this/my "family.
As Caroline and I have chosen to do, I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree.
Peace,
Greg
>
> Mark H.
poster:Greg
thread:1083
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20001011/msgs/1158.html