![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 28. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by wittgensteinz on March 11, 2009, at 7:24:10
Last September I switched to a new pdoc. The previous one wouldn't agree to take me off of an AD that hadn't been helping me and that I'd taken for a year. He was also unhygienic (his office was a big mess and he smelt of sweat) and was unclear - he'd muddle terms and mix up one medicine for another. I felt neutral toward him but didn't have confidence in him. My T suggested I look elsewhere.
My current pdoc is friendlier and more professional but very busy. However, he seems to have judged me very quickly. The first time I saw him he asked what was wrong with my previous pdoc but I didn't feel comfortable talking negatively about his colleague. I have the feeling he took my lack of an answer as to say that I'm fussy or difficult. Anyway, after 3 short sessions seeing him over 6 weeks I agreed to let him discuss my case with my therapist. My T later told me that they disagreed with my diagnosis. Basically the pdoc decided after those 3 sessions that I am an untreatable borderline and that he found my T 'heroic' but unrealistic for persisting with me in psychotherapy. It was his advice that I go into partial-hospitalisation. My T disagreed. He disagreed with the diagnosis - he'd never said I was borderline (he's said perhaps avoidant personality disorder) and didn't think I was a hopeless case and saw improvement but that I have big trust issues. I should say that pdoc has never said any of this to my face and perhaps doesn't know I know this from my T. So, as you can imagine, I feel a mix of feelings when I go to this pdoc knowing what he really thinks of me. I feel judged and silenced.
I had to wait 6 and a half weeks to get my appointment with him yesterday. I wrote him an e-mail (as he'd requested) to ask for an appointment. I explained my symptoms clearly. He never replied. Only after I phoned and left a message he finally got back to me. I go in yesterday but feel overwhelmed by anxiety. He feels just like my mother - I know it's my projection but I feel an extreme distrust toward him and feel terrified. I told him about the anxiety I've been feeling the last weeks and he responded by saying that "anxiety" is a strong word and maybe "tension" would be better. Well, I know that what I have been experiencing is what it is and I'm not stupid but my fear was so strong that I didn't know how to articulate myself - so in a way I'm living up to this image he has of me.
Every time I go to see him I feel awful for about a week afterwards - it has a very negative effect on me. One time he said to me (2nd or 3rd appointment) "I have to be honest, you don't have a very good situation at all. The only positive thing in your life is that, at the moment, you are in a relationship". He really stressed 'at the moment'. At the time I thougth "well at lest he isn't overly optimistic..." but it seems he thinks my relationships are unstable. Well I've been in this relationship for over 5 years and it's a good stable relationship.
He's prescribed me a new AD and will see me again in 4 weeks (which seems a long time if, for example, I have nasty side-effects). He refused to consider prescribing anything specifically for the anxiety, which leaves me in a difficult position. At least sweaty pdoc prescribed seroquel which would put me to sleep if I felt too bad.
The last time I saw him, back in December he said how he was proud of how well I was doing and how I was welcome to make an appointment at any point. Of course I didn't believe a word that he said (but that's just me) but when he ignored my e-mail I took that as a confirmation of my suspicions. My SO wants me to change to another pdoc but my overwhelming feeling, just like it has been with my mother, is to persist and prove him wrong - of course I'll probably never succeed and each time I go there I feel worse. This makes me feel so low and frustrated. My T seems to think that I should just not worry so much and just see this guy as someone to get meds from...
Witti
Posted by lucie lu on March 11, 2009, at 8:11:36
In reply to Negative transference, posted by wittgensteinz on March 11, 2009, at 7:24:10
Witti,
This pdoc sounds to me like trouble. The work that you are doing with your T is hard enough, I don't see what is to be gained by taking on another challenging relationship, this one likely to be no-win. That really sounds counter-productive to me. Wouldn't it be better to take that considerable energy it would take to deal with this man and put it instead in sessions with your T? I can imagine this pdoc being a real distraction to you, that you would come back from seeing him all upset and then need to try to process that in your regular therapy. You can ask your T if he really thinks this would be productive for your therapy or end up just being a painful distraction. It could even end up being a means of sidetracking or evading whatever is happening in your therapy by diverting your focus. I really think we do not have unlimited supplies of this sort of energy and we need to spend it wisely if we are going to get better.
As for someone just to get meds from, I would agree but he doesn't sound at all good in that area either. He gives you a diagnosis neither you nor your T believe in, and worse, is prescribing things that don't work well for you. And worst of all, he is unresponsive to you when you give him feedback on the meds and doesn't consistently return your calls. IMO, for any doctor, this would be grounds to look elsewhere. Are there really so few pdocs where you are? I would personally not want to work with this man. In fact, I would not want to work with anyone who did not want to work with me. These things happen, but then it is the patient's job to move on and select a better clinician.
I think this situation sounds like a lot more potential harm than good, and at the very least a lot of wasted time, money, energy, and emotional resources, and maybe even stall your current therapy. From what you say, it sounds like a potential repetition compulsion sort of thing re your mother. Would that really be helpful, do you need another example of this in your life, does it really achieve anything? I would suggest looking elsewhere.
Good luck,
Lucie
Posted by lucie lu on March 11, 2009, at 8:22:22
In reply to Re: Negative transference » wittgensteinz, posted by lucie lu on March 11, 2009, at 8:11:36
I just reread what I wrote and was afraid it might have sounded harsher than I intended, or even judgmental, which I certainly did not intend. One thing (one of my own issues) that sets me off is when I see a clinician who is IMO treating a patient or client badly, disrepectfully etc. It makes me angry. That is what the tone is about, not you. I am sorry that you have had to deal with these pdocs, and hope that you can find a good one who you can work with in partnership and productively.
And I see that he has not yet prescribed something for you that doesn't work, that was your first pdoc. But it sounds like if he did, you wouldn't get much of a response. I don't like how he quibbled about your "anxiety" which he rejected in favor of his own word "tension." I think this is very disrespectful and dismissive.
Posted by wittgensteinz on March 11, 2009, at 9:17:38
In reply to Re: Negative transference, posted by lucie lu on March 11, 2009, at 8:22:22
Thanks Lucie Lu,
I think your reply was spot-on. The problem now is that if I find a new pdoc I'm likely to have the same diagnosis hanging over me. It's standard for the new pdoc to request notes from the previous one. Pdoc 2 wanted notes from pdoc 1 - in those notes it stated I have severe depression and social anxiety. Now it probably says 'untreatable borderline', which hardly gives me a good starting point. So I'm going to have his legacy hanging over me whoever I end up seeing next, and then I'm going to be judged again. I'm getting more and more uncomfortable with pdocs in general.
There are more out there - I'd need to travel further. Cost isn't a problem - it's free in the Netherlands. Despite their differing opinions I have the feeling my T regards this pdoc fairly highly - they are both psychoanalysts, so maybe that's why. Pdoc 1 was a transactional analyst - how I hated it when he tried to bring that into things but that said it was never difficult getting an appointment with him - pdoc 2 must see at least 20 people a day. I'm almost wondering whether I could just go to my gp/normal doctor for these things or just stop with meds and bite my nails instead ;).
Witti
Posted by fleeting flutterby on March 11, 2009, at 9:46:02
In reply to Negative transference, posted by wittgensteinz on March 11, 2009, at 7:24:10
>> Anyway, after 3 short sessions seeing him over 6 weeks I agreed to let him discuss my case with my therapist. My T later told me that they disagreed with my diagnosis. Basically the pdoc decided after those 3 sessions that I am an untreatable borderline and that he found my T 'heroic' but unrealistic for persisting with me in psychotherapy. It was his advice that I go into partial-hospitalisation. My T disagreed. He disagreed with the diagnosis - he'd never said I was borderline (he's said perhaps avoidant personality disorder) and didn't think I was a hopeless case and saw improvement but that I have big trust issues. I should say that pdoc has never said any of this to my face and perhaps doesn't know I know this from my T. So, as you can imagine, I feel a mix of feelings when I go to this pdoc knowing what he really thinks of me. I feel judged and silenced.>>
------ flutterby: Yes, I can really understand your "mixed" feelings. My question is-- Why would your T. tell you all these things? T.s are supposed to steer in helpful directions.... so is your T. trying to help you. in telling you these things about your pdoc? just something to ponder......
>> I go in yesterday but feel overwhelmed by anxiety. He feels just like my mother - I know it's my projection but I feel an extreme distrust toward him and feel terrified.<<----- flutterby: I think your feelings are TOTALLY appropriate considering what you've been told by your T.(IMO) and considering your angst with the relationship with your mother.
>> One time he said to me (2nd or 3rd appointment) "I have to be honest, you don't have a very good situation at all. The only positive thing in your life is that, at the moment, you are in a relationship". He really stressed 'at the moment'. At the time I thougth "well at lest he isn't overly optimistic..." but it seems he thinks my relationships are unstable.<<------ flutterby: Do you really know that that is what he was inferring? that you don't have stable relationships? could he have meant that at this moment your relationship is a positive thing- not that there won't be other positive things in the near future. so stressing "at the moment" could mean that situations change and other things could turn better for you later on... maybe that's what he meant?
>> He's prescribed me a new AD and will see me again in 4 weeks (which seems a long time if, for example, I have nasty side-effects).<<-----flutterby: heck girlfriend, if you have severe side effects get in before the 4 weeks! -- you are paying him, get the services you deserve to have. please don't let him be the sole driver in your quest for internal peace.
>>He refused to consider prescribing anything specifically for the anxiety, which leaves me in a difficult position. At least sweaty pdoc prescribed seroquel which would put me to sleep if I felt too bad.>>
------flutterby: I don't know what to say about this... other than, maybe if you had a better relationship with pdoc you might not even need anxiety meds??..... I don't know.....
>> The last time I saw him, back in December he said how he was proud of how well I was doing and how I was welcome to make an appointment at any point. Of course I didn't believe a word that he said (but that's just me) but when he ignored my e-mail I took that as a confirmation of my suspicions.<<----- flutterby: Seems to me you are assuming things here, absent of fact. Is your suspicion a fact?... something to think about.....(FYI-- I also do this, so I'm not judging you-- just trying to help. I very often believe my suspicions too)
>>My SO wants me to change to another pdoc but my overwhelming feeling, just like it has been with my mother, is to persist and prove him wrong - of course I'll probably never succeed and each time I go there I feel worse. This makes me feel so low and frustrated. My T seems to think that I should just not worry so much and just see this guy as someone to get meds from...<<
----flutterby: It's hard to know what is best to do...... should one quit and keep looking for that better fit or should one cope best they can and work on shrinking projections and learn to accept that some relationships are going to be very difficult. (I personally, would quit and search for someone else) Only you can know how you truly feel inside about it. It's a tough situation. I feel for you as I've been in similar places myself. It is oh so difficult.best regards,
flutterby-mandy ps.... having clear thinking today-- rarely can I read a post of this length and stay focused.... I like my clear thinking days! :o)
Posted by seldomseen on March 11, 2009, at 10:18:28
In reply to Re: Negative transference » lucie lu, posted by wittgensteinz on March 11, 2009, at 9:17:38
Do you have the option of not allowing a new pdoc to discuss your treatment/diagnosis with an old one? Just tell them you want to start over, or that the "fit" just wasn't there. It seems like there should be some right to privacy there.
Why did you have to hear of your pdocs thoughts through your therapist? Did the pdoc discuss his assessment with you at all?
I also would question the value of your therapist telling you about your pdoc opinion, especially in reference to his "heroic" treatment of you. Has his choice proven to be a wise decision for you?
Seldom.
Posted by lucie lu on March 11, 2009, at 12:00:36
In reply to Negative transference, posted by wittgensteinz on March 11, 2009, at 7:24:10
And FWIW I don't see how you in any way fit a borderline diagnosis! Makes me wonder what he thinks he sees? Or is it just a pejorative label?
I wondered the same as Seldom - can you simply say you two did not connect and decline to send that second set of records, starting afresh? Can your T back you up on this?
And I hate to bring this up, but is it possible that the smelly pdoc didn't like your leaving his practice and that he may have put the BPD dx in your record in the first place? Could that be where pdoc #2 got the idea?
If you do see pdoc #2 again, could you simply ask him (assuming you haven't already) which of the diagnostic criteria for BPD he thinks you have? If he's vague, maybe he did get it from someone else.
Maybe I am just being paranoid in which case just ignore me :)
These pdocs just make me mad. You need this like you need a hole in the head.
L.
Posted by antigua3 on March 11, 2009, at 12:11:11
In reply to Negative transference, posted by wittgensteinz on March 11, 2009, at 7:24:10
Oh witti,
I don't want to cloud what you've said with my own experience, but I do feel compelled to write.
But since I'm in so deep with my pdoc right now that I'm afraid I can't get out, please take my comments with a grain of salt.In agreeing to see my pdoc for therapy as well as meds, I knew that I was already expereincing negative transference with him and like you, I thought it would ultimately help me get over issues with my father. Now I don't know if it will work, or more precisely if it is the right approach to my healing. It hurts incredibly, mostly because he is intransient at times and tends to reinforce the negative patterns/beliefs I have about my self, although I know, or hope, that this is just part of the process.
If I had to do it again, would I? Probably not. Why did I feel like I had to prove I could this? What was driving my motivation was not healthy, I think, and it has been an extremely bumpy ride. My problem is that I am so far deep into this w/him that I think at this point it would be far too damaging in the long run to stop until I can find a safe way out.
But there are many good things about my pdoc, I don't deny that at all; it's just that what he provides may not be the best way for me to heal my feelings about my father. But it all started w/negative transference and is now such a mess that I'm really struggling. Negative transference is just the transparent side of positive transference (if that's the right word) as he pointed out to me, and I agree with him, but now that I am in the throes of plain old transference, it is almost more difficult than I can bear.
In my case, my T and pdoc have never spoken about me; he has never wanted to speak with her, and frankly, I don't think they see the same person. He is against long-term therapy, which seems to be an insult of my work with my T, and she often disagrees with his interpretations of me or my feelings. But she's not in the room with me, and all I can do is relay what I think has happened with him. It's very difficult, but I know I willingly put myself into this position.
I've come to understand that I don't understand how he is trying to help me. Last night we had a major disagreement over how I make assumptions about him (all negative, of course) that aren't necessarily true according to him. All I know is that I don't understand, it is extremely painful and I don't know how to get out of it. It isn't as easy at this point to just stop seeing him. There would be such damage in walking away right now, although that is a strong possibility for the future, even the near future at that.
So, I agree with your SO. Find a pdoc who is willing to invest the time and energy in understanding you as you think you are, and not by some diagnosis that you don't believe in. Otherwise, you'll spend all your time fighting what you believe is strong within you, doubting that your instincts are correct, and always wanting to win in a situation that is so reminiscent of your mother.
I know how long you waited for this appt and I'm so sorry it didn't turn out as you had hoped.
If you have the strength, I would suggest talking directly with both your T and pdoc and get all your feelings out on the table. Trust is so vital, and if you feel you can't trust one or the other, you have to do what is best for you.
As I said, my situation doesn't mirror yours exactly, but negative transference is a dragon's nest, one that is very difficult for me to extract myself from.
antigua
Posted by wittgensteinz on March 11, 2009, at 12:19:20
In reply to Re: Negative transference » wittgensteinz, posted by seldomseen on March 11, 2009, at 10:18:28
I'm going to talk it through with T on Friday. I saw him yesterday afternoon after seeing pdoc.
Pdoc hasn't said anything to me in terms of diagnoses. He mentioned once that I should consider partial hospitalisation but by the following session (2 weeks later), when I asked him specifically where he had in mind, he'd lost interest in the idea and changed the subject.
Before pdoc and T spoke to one another they asked my permission. My T said he would be 100% transparent and tell me what was discussed - I didn't ask him to be, he said it of his own initiative. Well, when they finally talked to one another T didn't tell me, and I only heard the next time I saw the pdoc when he said that he'd spoken with my T - but didn't say what they'd talked about. I then asked my T - including why he hadn't said anything. I had assumed T would simply tell me what details pdoc knew about me and what not so I would know where I stood - instead T said about their disagreement in terms of diagnosis and severity. Incidentally, the morning after they spoke I had a terrible session where my T was quite sharp to me and I became very upset and he was unusually cold to me at the end of the session. He later said he had the feeling the conversation with the pdoc had had an influence on that session, saying that he wondered if he was too easy on me. I don't know what he meant by that. Although pdoc and T only spoke once, T must have mentioned this conversation at least 5 times since then, each time adding more details. Yesterday he said the thing about pdoc finding my T 'heroic' persisting with me as a patient. It's true, I did take an overdose back in September but apart from that I haven't partaken in any abusive behaviour - I don't have any addictions, I'm not particularly impulsive or certainly not aggressive, I don't self-harm, I'm not manipulative... but I do sometimes feel suicidal and my trust is very shakey.
I haven't relayed what I know back to the pdoc - and I don't think he knows I am aware of his views. I certainly regret trusting my T to talk to this pdoc and the result of that conversation has been quite damaging, both to the therapy and in terms of getting the right meds.
A good "friend" while at high school always used to tell me when the other girls said nasty things about me. In the beginning I thought she was being nice but later I decided she got pleasure from seeing me get upset and wondered if she made things up.
Witti
Posted by backseatdriver on March 11, 2009, at 12:57:39
In reply to Re: Negative transference » wittgensteinz, posted by lucie lu on March 11, 2009, at 12:00:36
Seconding Lucie - I think your pdoc is a lemon, and what's more, you've gotten two lemons in a row! I'm so sorry you've had to go through this. The "borderline" diagnosis is extremely suspect. I do think there is a groundswell of skepticism among healthcare providers about that diagnosis. Women doctors may be especially attuned to it, as the diagnosis frequently attaches to assertive women, through no fault of their own! Perhaps you might be able to locate a sympathetic woman pdoc?
BSD
Posted by backseatdriver on March 11, 2009, at 13:11:49
In reply to Re: Negative transference ) Fleeting butterfly + » seldomseen, posted by wittgensteinz on March 11, 2009, at 12:19:20
> He later said he had the feeling the conversation
> with the pdoc had had an influence on that session,
> saying that he wondered if he was too easy on me.Witti, I think this is a really important bit of information.
This pdoc is SO intrusive and dominating and undermining that he managed to temporarily persuade your T -- a trained professional who knows you a lot better than your pdoc -- that T is not treating you right.
In a way, your pdoc *solicited* your T. It seems like pdoc wanted to drive a wedge between your T and you, probably because he wanted to make sure his "diagnosis" turned out to be the correct one. This pdoc can't be wrong -- it is too much of a narcissistic wound. I don't like that, not at all.
Your T did an interesting thing, too. By pulling back from you, he let you know that something was up. He didn't say *what*, though -- perhaps because he knew that he should have been less impressed than he was by what your pdoc had to say. I wonder if your pdoc browbeat him at all. I suspect the answer is yes.
I feel very strongly that your pdoc is not worth your trust.
Best,
BSD
Posted by wittgensteinz on March 11, 2009, at 14:12:21
In reply to Re: Negative transference, posted by backseatdriver on March 11, 2009, at 12:57:39
BSD,
I had to smile when you wrote about assertive women. I'm probably the least assertive person you'll ever meet - when pdoc phoned to arrange my last appointment he gave a time and I wasn't sure if I heard him correctly (1:40 or 2:40) but was too afraid to ask so instead of phoning again I sat for an hour yesterday in the waiting room to make sure I didn't miss the appointment. If assertiveness were a defining characteristic then I wouldn't qualify. I didn't part with pdoc 1 on bad terms. He said he liked me and wished me the best with the future. I told him that there were some language problems (which was true - his English wasn't that good) and that I felt it might be good if I saw a pdoc who was from the same orientation as my therapist. I honestly don't think there were any bad feelings when I stopped seeing him.
The thought of opting for a female pdoc has crossed my mind - I'm going to do some research.
Thanks for the feedback.
Witti
Posted by wittgensteinz on March 11, 2009, at 14:34:39
In reply to Re: Negative transference » wittgensteinz, posted by lucie lu on March 11, 2009, at 12:00:36
Thanks for saying that - it's a very difficult diagnosis to bear, at least from my perspective. When you start to think about things, anything can feel like it fits. I remember convincing myself once that I had Asperger's syndrome because my mother, in one of her rages, accused me of being autistic and socially inept.
I'm probably going to be guilty of doing exactly what my pdoc did to me but I suspect my mother does in fact have BPD, and my T suspects so too. She will never see a pdoc or T so will never be diagnosed, but reading several books on borderline parents/mothers I was confronted by how very closely they fitted my own experiences of my mother. The rages, the idealisation and denigration - the sheer anger and at moments complete lack of control. Of course my fear is that I will become 'just like my mother', so this label carries a particular burden. I don't honestly think I have this condition.
As I wrote in my reply to BSD, I parted with pdoc 1 on good terms, as far as I am aware. I know exactly what was sent from him to pdoc 2 because I had to post the document myself. I did ask current pdoc if my previous pdoc had added to the file and he said "no". So, I don't think it was anything coming from a bitter pdoc. At the time he was busy rennovating his house and I don't think he had the interest to send any malicious reports to my new pdoc. I wasn't a difficult patient as far as I'm aware.
Thanks for sticking up for me :)
Witti
Posted by wittgensteinz on March 11, 2009, at 14:47:22
In reply to Re: Negative transference ) Fleeting butterfly +, posted by backseatdriver on March 11, 2009, at 13:11:49
I've tried to let this incident go but it's still there at the back of my mind. I still don't know what to make of it. I feel let down by my T about it but he doesn't really give room for it to be discussed. A part of me wants to say goodbye to both of them :( - the irony is that last Friday I had such a good session with T that I felt it really was behind us - he actually, in my opinion, broke the rules rather disclosure-wise in that session but it did improve my trust for him. After yesterday though it all feels just as raw again.
Witti
Posted by wittgensteinz on March 11, 2009, at 14:57:41
In reply to Re: Negative transference » wittgensteinz, posted by antigua3 on March 11, 2009, at 12:11:11
Antigua,
The thing with strong negative-transference is that the effect tends to be one of re-traumatization. I literally feel 'just' like I did as a young child during one of my mother's rages. I feel sheer panic and terror and start dissociating.
If your pdoc is to you as this pdoc is to me, then it probably isn't a good thing. I know the compulsion to try and stick it out - the desire to make it better, make it different. It certainly doesn't sound like a simple or professional situation between your pdoc and your T. The way you write about him, I feel an aversion to him, if I am honest - where does your T stand in terms of this - does she approve of your seeing him for therapy? What are the alternatives? It's not too late - it's never too late to reassess your treatment plan. Is this the only way to go about things? Do you feel trapped?
Witti
Posted by antigua3 on March 11, 2009, at 16:04:02
In reply to Re: Negative transference » antigua3, posted by wittgensteinz on March 11, 2009, at 14:57:41
>
> The thing with strong negative-transference is that the effect tends to be one of re-traumatization. I literally feel 'just' like I did as a young child during one of my mother's rages. I feel sheer panic and terror and start dissociating.
>>>>This is exactly what I said to my pdoc last night. The re-experiencing of the abuse events at this point is nowhere near as re-traumatizing as dealing with him right now. It's horrible.
> It certainly doesn't sound like a simple or professional situation between your pdoc and your T. The way you write about him, I feel an aversion to him, if I am honest
>>>Honestly, it depends on how I choose to write about him. Sometimes he really surprises me.But I can't see him clearly and we are having trouble communicating lately. Too much, too fast, he says; I'm in overload and unfortunately he doesn't think he accepts any responsibility for putting me there, although I definitely was complicit, but more importantly, he helped put me there and then left me high and dry, not able or dare I say willing? to help.
>> where does your T stand in terms of this - does she approve of your seeing him for therapy?
>>>She can only know what I tell her and I'm so blinded I don't know what's true about him anymore, so all she can do is offer support and encouragement. She agrees that leaving now would cause more harm than good in the long run, but is keeping a keen eye on the situation w/me.
>>What are the alternatives? It's not too late - it's never too late to reassess your treatment plan. Is this the only way to go about things? Do you feel trapped?
>
>>>Yes, I feel very trapped, in a trap of my own making, which makes me feel sick. I can't figure out if I'm being abused again by this therapy or not.I'll stop now. I didn't mean to hijack your thread.
Sorry,
antigua
Posted by turtle on March 11, 2009, at 17:02:37
In reply to Negative transference, posted by wittgensteinz on March 11, 2009, at 7:24:10
Witti
Getting the help you need is difficult enough without having to struggle against being judged in the process. I'm sorry that you are in this situation. The whole thing sounds horrible.You should listen to yourself when you feel fear and lack of trust in this situation. Your feelings here are valid. This pdoc does not sound like he has your best interests in mind.
My first therapist had a very negative opinion of me. She let it slip (twice) that she thought I was schizoid, and she had this view of me as some strange creature who couldn't communicate. During our final session together she told me in a very judgmental way that I should go find someone who does alternative therapy like sandbox or art therapy, because "talk therapy just wasn't working for me". She fired me after two years for "never getting over my fear", as if I failed and was hopeless.
Was she right? She judged me, and I bought into it, so was it true?
My current therapist took the time to very gently earn my trust. I have never felt judged by her. I now fill my sessions up, talk way too much, and have progress and movement in my issues. It is a completely different experience.What all of this taught me that my previous T's experience of me was just one small slice of who I really am. *I* am not those things. My childhood taught me some pretty strong defense mechanisms to use when I'm not safe. Under unsafe conditions (being judged, pushed around, experiencing hurts and ruptures without repair, being exposed without having trust) I respond with lots of fear, and that shuts me down tight. When I am shut down, I can be experienced by someone who continues to approach me with those behaviors in the same way as my first T experienced me.
It sounds to me that you facing something very similar. You are also experiencing fear and lack of trust, and rightly so. When you are afraid, the ways that you protect yourself become stronger. It could it be that this pdoc associates the things that he is experiencing from you (while you are afraid) as "borderline". And if so, so what? Why is he responding by judging you and calling you hopeless? Why is he not trying to be supportive of you in your experience, whatever that experience is, and building up trust with you? It's also important to remember that not everyone who has the same experience with you as he did would interpret things in the same way. His interpretation (with his own filters and biases) in this moment (3 sessions!) does not define you.
I wanted to stick it out with my first therapist too if she would have let me. I'm so happy now that I didn't have that option. I didn't understand at that point that I was caught in a pattern from my childhood. (He reminds you of your mother?) You can't just force those things to go away. The way to resolve fear and trust issues is to work with people who are willing to give you the space and support you need while *they* work to earn your trust. Is this pdoc willing to do that? Toughing it out with someone who is judging you unfairly (definitely not a safe environment) only proves that you are strong and can live through very painful things while it gets in the way of getting the real help that you need.
How are you feeling about your T now? I think that having my T respond in that way to something someone said about me, and to take that opinion over what we experienced together, would feel very disturbing.
If you do look for another pdoc, I encourage you to just say no when they ask for your prior records. Hand them a medication and health history (get it from your pharmacy or primary physician?) and ask them to form their own opinion. A good professional should be able to do that. When I switched to my current T I had definitely decided to not let her talk to my first T, and luckily she had the grace to not ask to. Why would I let someone who I was trying to build a new relationship with (a very important relationship!) talk to someone who had a bad opinion of me? For someone who is primarily managing your medications, there are other ways to get the essential facts that they need.
I wish you the best.
Turtle
Posted by Dinah on March 11, 2009, at 21:21:18
In reply to Negative transference, posted by wittgensteinz on March 11, 2009, at 7:24:10
I'd look for someone else and ditch this one. You don't need to convince him of anything. He sounds far less than appealing.
Although honestly, I've taken the route your therapist has advised. Neither of my latest two pdocs encouraged any individual sharing beyond symptoms and side effects. Neither has any interest in speaking to my therapist, or in hearing from me really. The latest one frankly terrifies me. But the selection around here is not extensive, and this one prescribes a combination that is working for me, and also prescribes therapy. I don't much care for him, but I only see him five minutes every three months, so I can deal with it.
If your pdoc is technically skilled and prescribing a combination that works as well as can be expected, maybe it is best to just put up with him, and not listen overmuch to anything he says that isn't directly related to meds.
Posted by Dinah on March 11, 2009, at 21:28:34
In reply to Re: Negative transference » lucie lu, posted by wittgensteinz on March 11, 2009, at 9:17:38
I also refused to give my third pdoc permission to request records from one or two. The second pdoc was way too influenced by what the first said, and I didn't want that to happen again.
My third pdoc was perfectly ok with that. He said he'd rather come fresh to my case and form his own opinions anyway, and that I could tell him anything about previous medication experiences that he needed to know. He then added a mood stabilizer to my mix, which was exactly what I needed. So I'm glad he did rethink my case.
Someone who is willing to do that might be a good start. You could always tell them that should they later feel it's necessary, you could discuss authorizing it then. But for now you prefer a fresh look, with no preconceptions. Unless of course there really is something he would need to know about your previous medication experiences. I had notes about each of my med trials I could give him.
Posted by Dinah on March 11, 2009, at 22:21:30
In reply to Re: Negative transference » wittgensteinz, posted by Dinah on March 11, 2009, at 21:21:18
Ugh. I just read the rest of the thread. I think I'd be disinclined to see someone who undermined my relationship with my therapist as much as it sounds like this guy did.
Posted by wittgensteinz on March 12, 2009, at 10:59:17
In reply to Re: Negative transference, posted by turtle on March 11, 2009, at 17:02:37
Turtle,
Thanks for sharing your own story - I can really relate to how it must have felt. In your case, it was your T and I can imagine this would have a far greater impact. At least I only see this pdoc very occasionally. I'm glad to hear that you now have a T who has been able to earn your trust. To me you seem a very articulate person.Thanks for the advice about looking for a new pdoc and my right not to have him/her contacting my previous pdoc. I almost wonder whether I will give it a break for a few months, ask previous pdoc to close my file and start over.
Witti
Posted by wittgensteinz on March 12, 2009, at 11:35:57
In reply to Re: Negative transference » wittgensteinz, posted by Dinah on March 11, 2009, at 21:21:18
Dinah,
There aren't that many pdocs in my home town (4 or 5?) but it wouldn't be a problem to go a bit further afield. The positive thing here is that pdoc visits are covered by standard insurance. I just get the feeling that the more pdocs you have on the meter and more their alarm bells sound and the more judgmental they are from the outset.
Witti
Posted by wittgensteinz on March 12, 2009, at 11:39:40
In reply to Re: Negative transference, posted by Dinah on March 11, 2009, at 22:21:30
I don't think he's a 'bad guy' as such but it's just the case that he triggers me each time I see him and his interaction with my therapist has led to some long-standing tension between me and him (T).
It's reassuring to know that other babblers have gone to a pdoc and it's been ok having a fresh start.
Witti
Posted by Nadezda on March 13, 2009, at 14:46:10
In reply to Re: Negative transference ) Fleeting butterfly + » seldomseen, posted by wittgensteinz on March 11, 2009, at 12:19:20
Hi, Witti.
Would you say that the really disturbing part of this issue is the exchanges between you and your T? That seems to be what you're saying, and I wonder if perhaps there isn't more to this than you've mentioned. I remember the prior incident with the coldness of your T and how distressed you were by it-- and the lingering effects of it-- and it would seem that the current situation is evoking further distrust-- or fears of some instability with your T.
What arrangement you make with the pdoc seems to me secondary to being able to work this through further with your T-- unless you would find it difficult and possibly disruptive to discuss it with him. I wouldn't want to encourage you to bring it up if you think he would react defensively or become more withdrawn or cold. But at the same time, this situation with him and the pdoc would I think raise doubts and uncertainty for anyone.
Are you feeling more concerned about trust with him, and about his commitment, or loyalty to you?
Nadezda
Posted by wittgensteinz on March 13, 2009, at 19:12:42
In reply to Re: Negative transference ) Fleeting butterfly +, posted by Nadezda on March 13, 2009, at 14:46:10
Thank you Nadezda. Actually, after reading all these replies I began to feel quite angry with my T. I supposed my focus shifted from that of the pdoc back to my T and the unresolved feelings associated with the session some months back and what came after. I sent him a mail yesterday - a rather negative one - he replied, which made me a bit 'softer' on him. We talked about it today - it seems this time it isn't so difficult to discuss it openly and it felt like we've made progress with it. I asked him how that conversation with the pdoc had influenced him. He agreed that at the time it had influenced him but didn't agree with what he had heard and said he felt he had also influenced the pdoc. We talked about his disclosure of that conversation to me and its effects on the feelings I now have about seeing this pdoc. He said that maybe it would have been best that I hadn't known about the conversation but he had agreed to tell me. I feel some closure with it now. I think talking about it will open up some other useful topics. In some ways the dynamic between T and pdoc, to me, reflects the dynamic of my parents. There is definitely projection there on my part, which brings forth a lot of feelings.
He said clearly that he wouldn't be continuing my treatment if he thought himself to be 'heroic' - that he didn't need to be heroic to treat me, so my dignity felt a little restored. The sad thing is that the involvement of this pdoc, however small, has really jeopardised my therapy. I few months back I thought seriously about whether to continue and I spent quite a lot of time upset, wondering what had happened. I was able to go on but this lingered in the background - now it can be we can give it some closure and really move on with safety and trust restored. Or at least that would be nice.
In general I really like my therapist - of course I tend to write when things aren't going well. I don't want to be 'hopeless' or 'borderline' (or a hopeless anything - I don't much like to be labelled as an 'avoidant' either) and I don't want the person treating me to have to be a 'hero' to put up with me (!) - that's all too much for me to bear, what with my rubbish self-esteem - I prefer to think of my relationship with my T as a partnership on a journey, a realistic journey at that - I don't care so much for diagnoses, nor does he, fortunately.
Witti
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