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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by workinprogress on February 20, 2009, at 10:54:00
In reply to Re: Worse than ever » TherapyGirl, posted by antigua3 on February 20, 2009, at 9:06:18
Ah- Antigua... that's what I kept thinking. I knew someone else would go there. Though, I think the stuff Seldom said- it's probably not all about you- is probably a piece of it too.
But... that old idea about picking people where we replay old patterns, it sounds plausible to me. TG, the way you describe what happened describes stuff that happens between friends often. People sometimes get on each others nerves, people sometimes poke, people sometimes throw barbs instead of discussing it directly. But, the adult response is to say "that hurt my feelings" and maybe discuss some other way to bring up issues. The non-adult response is to snark back and poke back. Many times the response is to ignore and let it fester or fade away. Now, these non-adult responses... not idea. But, your friends' response is nowhere on the charts there. That's because to me--- it's nowhere on the charts!!!
So, she's reacting rather oddly. I'd say the trick here is to be able to say, that's not normal behavior. I've picked a friend I can't rely on, maybe it's time to examine my friendships. Or.. something's up with my friend, I hope she's ok. As opposed to, I'm unlovable. That's what you learned as a defense mechanism as a kid. When you felt abandoned by mom, you turned on yourself, blamed yourself, there must be something wrong with me- TG, because mom's don't abandon kids and furthermore (I know kids don't say any of this particularly furthermore ;) ) if mom abandons me then I'm an orphan and I don't want that, so it must be my fault.
It isn't your fault TG. You were in a space where you could have communicated a little better, but you did nothing that warrants the severing of the friendship. I think the question is... did your friend?
All that said... I am so so sorry. Friendships are so hard in this way. There are so few that stay. And for those of us who struggle with abandonment the fluidity of friendship is so painful and I don't think I ever get used to it. I'm currently coming to the realization that a friendship I once very much valued has faded away, I am trying hard not to think "I'm bad" for having that happen. (It's always my fault too). But TG, you seem quite lovable to me. Because you're you. Because you're caring and thoughtful and full of feeling. And you've been very helpful to people on this board. So, help us out and give yourself a big hug and try to think of something nice to do to yourself. Be a friend to yourself if you can....
(((((((((((((((TG))))))))))))))))))
Posted by raisinb on February 20, 2009, at 11:44:56
In reply to Worse than ever, posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 6:40:39
TG,
I am so sorry this is happening right now. I agree with the other posters--please don't blame yourself or your supposedly "unchangeable" qualities. You are neither unlovable nor unsuited for relationships--your long-term T relationship and your other ones (AND you on Babble!) prove that.The exact same thing happened to me about four years ago. A friend, very, very close and special to me, "dumped" me because of some things I'd done and said on a trip we took together. They were a lot worse (it sounds) than what you've said. It involved a good deal of transference on my part--issues I wouldn't work through until I met my current therapist (my friend was a therapist, too).
Several months later, I sent her an email apologizing, wishing her well, and telling her how important she'd been to me. She was upset about the rupture, too, and we ended up being friends again.
I wanted to let you know that this situation isn't necessarily permanent, even though it feels awful right now.
Please take care. ((((TG))))
Posted by Phillipa on February 20, 2009, at 13:07:43
In reply to Re: Worse than ever » TherapyGirl, posted by raisinb on February 20, 2009, at 11:44:56
I'm sorry I do know how fluctuating thyroid hormones can change mood so quickly and you wonder what happened. Is this some book or link that might help your friend understand the current problems you experience mental and even physical. I know from all the threads your're a great person. Love Phillipa
Posted by lucie lu on February 20, 2009, at 14:38:45
In reply to Worse than ever, posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 6:40:39
TG,
You know, something I have learned about friends is that they can have serious limitations. And yet still have valuable things to offer in the friendship.
We all want our closest friends to understand us, care for us, and stand by us especially in our hour of need. And there are friends like this, bless them. But there are also ones who are great in most respects but who just can't cope with part of the package. I have learned that even such people can be good friends to me if I can accept their limitations (and vice versa). I have a very close friend who for decades has been like a sister to me. We genuinely love each other. I have turned to her in all sorts of personal and family emergencies. However, I have learned that there are some that for her own reasons, she simply cannot cope with. Mental illness is something that some people simply cannot cope with, either through misinformation or bias or perhaps fears about themselves. My friend is one of these. So when I need to talk to someone about MH issues, I will need to turn to others and not her (or Babble, of course). The key in being able to accept this is recognizing that it is her issue, not mine, that renders her unable to help me when I need help in this direction. The other key is knowledge and acceptance of what her particular limits. Inevitably, there is great hurt, disappointment and disillusionment when we discover a good friend's limits because we are usually smacked in the face with it. It hurts like hell. But then at least you know where the limits are, and hopefully you two can repair the rupture and resume a worthwhile friendship.
The problem right now is that you are raw and sore both from your depression and also from the rupture with her. And you have needs that she cannot fulfill, given who she is and the limitations of the friendship. So right now, it is probably best to focus on getting the support you need elsewhere until you are feeling better, when you both may be able to move on together.
So my point is that just as there is no perfect spouse, there is no perfect friend (or at least very few!). It is hard when a close friend's area of limitation happens to coincide with an area where you may have special needs. But the friendship can still be very meaningful and worthwhile in other ways. Hopefully you two will be able to renegotiate when the time feels right.
I hope this helps. ((((((((((TG))))))))))
Take care,
Lucie
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 15:51:08
In reply to Re: Worse than ever » TherapyGirl, posted by lucie lu on February 20, 2009, at 14:38:45
I just got home from my trip. I appreciate each and every response. I always know that if there is nowhere else in my life where people get it, there is always Babble.
I'll respond individually (or maybe in a group update) tonight and/or tomorrow. I do want to clarify that my T laughed when I told her the quote not because any of this is funny to her, but because the quote itself is so very ridiculous.
The one thing I was able to say to my friend today is, "You know your quotable quote from last night about mental illness being no excuse for bad behavior is utter drivel and, frankly, I'm shocked beyond belief to hear it come out of the mouth of someone who has spent decades working with people with disabilities. What you are seeing today in terms of my ability to function is the result of the month I've had to work on coping skills and new ways of dealing with this with my T. What happened to me on the trip last month was akin to someone going from a mild cognitive impairment to a severe one in a matter of hours. NO ONE would have been prepared for that."
She then told me that the quote was not directed at me. She won't own up to any part of this. It is all very clear to me now. Although I still miss her like crazy.
More later. Thanks to all of you.
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 19:49:15
In reply to Re: Worse than ever, posted by Dinah on February 20, 2009, at 7:49:04
Not sanguine, not patient, too depressed.
Why is this so hard?
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 19:50:18
In reply to Re: Worse than ever » TherapyGirl, posted by SLS on February 20, 2009, at 7:58:16
Not preachy, Scott. I really have no idea how you do this. It is amazing to me. I don't think I have it in me. I'll keep reading your post, though.
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 19:51:51
In reply to Re: Worse than ever » TherapyGirl, posted by antigua3 on February 20, 2009, at 9:06:18
Probably nail on the head, Antigua. But after 24 years of therapy, shouldn't I be picking better now? I'm running out of time to fix this. And I just can't take it anymore.
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 19:56:59
In reply to Re: Worse than ever, posted by backseatdriver on February 20, 2009, at 9:20:50
I think you're right, BSD. Friend is definitely ambivalent (and feels pressured and like there are unfair expectations on her) and I'm all bonded and attached because it took me so long to get to the place where I COULD be bonded and attached. Unbelievably long. Unbelievably hard work. And for what???????
It's interesting how you interpreted that remark. When I called her on it today, she said it wasn't directed at me, she was just telling me what someone said to her one time. Funny, though -- she was telling me that when we were talking about MY mental illness and MY behavior. There was no other way to interpret it.
She also says that when she came downstairs at the beach to check on me that she gave me every opportunity to talk to her. That she expressed concern for me. What she actually did was stand at the bottom of the stairs, about 10 feet away from me and said, "Are you ignoring us?" Does anyone else see the difference between "What's going on with you and how can I help?" (support) and "Are you ignoring us?" (criticism).
And I can't let go of it. Even when I know all of you and my T are right about her. Even in those moments when I know it. I still can't let go and I still feel abandoned and unbelievably hurt and sad and depressed.
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 19:57:39
In reply to Re: Worse than ever » TherapyGirl, posted by sassyfrancesca on February 20, 2009, at 10:23:06
Thanks, Sassy. I'm trying to believe that. I really am. I just can't seem to get there from here right this second.
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 19:59:21
In reply to Re: Worse than ever, posted by workinprogress on February 20, 2009, at 10:54:00
Thank you, WIP. I can't take it in right now, but thank you for saying it.
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 20:01:42
In reply to Re: Worse than ever » TherapyGirl, posted by raisinb on February 20, 2009, at 11:44:56
Thank you for giving me the gift of hope, Raisinb. I can't fathom why I can't let go of her, but I can't. It feels like the possibility of fun has just permanently shut down for me. And the possibility of holding those connections.
And it just gets worse when I lose my T on top of everything else. I can't bear it.
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 20:02:42
In reply to Re: Worse than ever, posted by Phillipa on February 20, 2009, at 13:07:43
Thanks, Phillipa. I don't think she wants to understand. She seems pretty committed to NOT understanding. But maybe one day she'll be open to that.
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 20:04:11
In reply to Re: Worse than ever » TherapyGirl, posted by lucie lu on February 20, 2009, at 14:38:45
How do you figure all this stuff out, Lucie? I mean that. HOW? And then how do you hold onto it when the bottom falls out?
Thank you for your post.
Posted by lucie lu on February 20, 2009, at 20:12:46
In reply to Re: Worse than ever » lucie lu, posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 20:04:11
> How do you figure all this stuff out, Lucie? I mean that. HOW? And then how do you hold onto it when the bottom falls out?
>Guess...
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 20:13:40
In reply to Re: Worse than ever, posted by lucie lu on February 20, 2009, at 20:12:46
It can't be therapy, right? Or else I would be better at this? I know it probably doesn't seem like it right this second, but I actually have a very good T.
Posted by lucie lu on February 20, 2009, at 20:29:04
In reply to Re: Worse than ever » lucie lu, posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 20:13:40
You are hurting right now, TG. It is hard to think straight when you are in pain. When it recedes, you will begin to see new things. I promise you will.
Posted by Recently on February 20, 2009, at 20:39:12
In reply to Worse than ever, posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 6:40:39
(((TG)))
I'm sorry you are hurting, TG. It's so painful when people aren't as understanding as they should/could be. The "mental illness is no excuse for bad behavior" really got me too... (I've heard that line a time or two before myself). From what I understand of the situation, your friend really overreacted. But I know when these types of fallouts happen it really can make those of us with depression question our ability to form friendships. I'm really sorry you are feeling so badly. Don't be so hard on yourself. You seem like a nice, kind person, to me.
Recently
Posted by petunia on February 21, 2009, at 17:07:48
In reply to Worse than ever, posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 6:40:39
Hi TherapyGirl!
If this doesn't sit right, please throw it out. I hesiateted saying it because I don't know where you are with your feelings right now, but when I came to a similar point in my life someone else pointed this out to me, and it helped me **tremendously**. Maybe it will do the same for you.
Basically, as I was reading your posts on this thread, about how not only one but two major relationships in your life are ending, all I could think of was, "She's getting better!!! She's getting better!!!" :)
When we get better, when we make real progress in our healing, when those unhealthy things that were so absolute inside us for so long finally move and crack and start to change, sometimes the first place we see it is in relationships that implode, often relationships of long standing or that we perceived as deep and lasting.
Inside, when we get better, we can even feel worse. Me, I feel like it will never end, all the fighting and scrabbling and struggling. So feeling better or feeling worse is not always equivalent to actually BEING better.
But the sure sign that you are changing, that you are finally becoming whole, is that the people who depended on you *staying broken* start to fall away. People get used to you being the way you were, even when they love you, and the change is hard. But when people are around you not so much out of love as of meeting their own needs through you, your healing is very, very threatening.
What you describe, mini power plays followed by desertion and excuses that don't work, really fit this scenario as it has played out in my life.
See, when you're dealing with mental illness, there's always a huge power differential between people in a relationship, because you don't have the same command over yourself, your responses, and your environment that they seem to. Not only are they likely more powerful in terms of being able to control the relationship and move you into positions that make themselves comfortable, we on the other side of the MH coin tend to SEE them as more powerful whether they are or not.
Basically, when we're unhealthy, it is all too likely that there are people around us who depend on that unhealthiness. When we get better, they get very uncomfortable.
So when you say you feel like there are people waiting for an excuse to leave, it may actually be true. But for the very best reason in the world: you're NOT bad, you're NOT unlovable, it's just time for them to go. Your sincerity toward them sees only love, and that's why it comes as such a shock and a rupture. But this may be the very best thing that could happen right now: they go so that the others coming to you, with the health and love you can accept now, have room in your life. :)
They need to go -- at least for a time -- so that you can continue to become the real you, the precious you that God created, the you that you were always meant to be. If they're worthy of your friendship, they'll be back, like the other posters described. But people who do you wrong and never own it... those you will never truly need.
I'm going to tell you something else that may be very uncomfortable, and may not apply at all, but you should know: there are many people who are attracted to the "helping" professions not because they need to help, but because they are very comfortable having a steady supply of people they can look down on and/or dominate. Your friend, to be honest, strikes me as one of these. Some people help the disabled, some people help themselves to the disabled. Just sayin'.
So please don't think of yourself as unworthy or bad or wrong. What I am seeing, from where I sit as a stranger who has walked in your shoes, is that you are absolutely perfect, doing what you need to do, making your way. Let them go, let them do what they need to do for them, and you continue on. You're getting better. :)
If none of this fits, please feel free to toss it. My very best wishes to you --
Petunia
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 21, 2009, at 19:38:35
In reply to Re: Worse than ever, posted by petunia on February 21, 2009, at 17:07:48
You make some good points, Petunia, and I appreciate it. I think the problem here is not that I'm getting healthier it is that I took a dive after a fairly long time without this kind of major episode. I think my friend is just not up to the challenge. But much of what you said also applies to her.
My T is retiring at the end of the year, so that's just bad timing. But I'm not sure there would ever have been a good time for her to retire. I've been in therapy with her on and off (mostly on) for 24 years now.
Thanks so much for writing this, though, because much of it applies elsewhere in my life.
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 23, 2009, at 19:40:45
In reply to Re: Worse than ever » petunia, posted by TherapyGirl on February 21, 2009, at 19:38:35
And she lied. My "best friend," that is. Weeks ago I gave her a letter of apology and wrote on there that it was for when she was ready. I have seen it ever since, in a letter file on her kitchen counter, unopened, whenever I walk her dog for her. Tonight I walked the dog and the letter is still there, unopened. She told me last week that she had read my letter and taken all that into consideration.
I know this is just further proof that there is something else going on with her, but I am just amazed that she would look me in the face and flat out lie. Why bring up the letter at all?????
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 23, 2009, at 19:45:04
In reply to Re: Worse than ever -- UPDATE, posted by TherapyGirl on February 23, 2009, at 19:40:45
In the worst possible way, I want to call her up and say, "You know, you were right. Mental illness is NOT an excuse for bad behavior. It's also not an excuse for LYING."
And, of course, I won't do that. Because I don't believe either statement and it makes me crazy every time I hear her saying that in my head. But how is my behavior, which was bad (and during a breakdown) worse than her lying?????? She is not a liar.
Posted by SLS on February 23, 2009, at 19:45:13
In reply to Re: Worse than ever -- UPDATE, posted by TherapyGirl on February 23, 2009, at 19:40:45
(((((TherapyGirl)))))
No particular reason.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 23, 2009, at 20:22:20
In reply to Re: Worse than ever -- UPDATE » TherapyGirl, posted by SLS on February 23, 2009, at 19:45:13
Thanks, Scott. You are a total sweetheart. I should look for more friends like you and fewer like her.
Posted by DAisym on February 24, 2009, at 0:25:00
In reply to Re: Worse than ever -- UPDATE » SLS, posted by TherapyGirl on February 23, 2009, at 20:22:20
OK - so I'm going to say something that stinks.
Sometimes being a good friend means letting your friends be bad friends. Take the high road, try to give her a lot of space and wait for her to come to her senses and miss you. My best guess is that your break down caused a cascade reaction in her and something snapped.
It is not your fault. But just as you couldn't help yourself, neither can she right now. So be kind to her, even though she wasn't kind to you.
I know she doesn't deserve this. But I believe it is the kindest thing you can do for yourself. Otherwise you are torturing yourself by trying to figure out how to convince her that she should still be your friend. She isn't hearing you nor is this a seemingly rational decision. This sounds like a very old, very deeply buried emotional response. You frightened her and now she has to rebuild herself before she can remember the depth of your friendship. Everything you learn about her right now is going to hurt you. Why are you walking her dog? Don't keep checking on the envelope, or better yet, if you can, take it back without her knowing where it went. Don't grovel, don't beg. You've apologized, explained and told her you love her. Now step back.
I know it hurts like hell and is so unfair. I've had this experience. Three years (yes, years) my friend came and apologized. She said, "it was never your fault and I'm sorry. I was stupid."
I'm sorry to say, we were never that close again. But nothing I would have said at that point would have mattered.I wish we lived close so would could close ranks and guard you from all this pain. But at least we are here and you aren't alone.
Hugs,
Daisy
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