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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by DAisym on November 8, 2008, at 20:00:02
"This message is for Nine. Hi Nine, this is X. I understand how completely freaked out you are right now and how hard it is to believe that I'm going to be there for you. But I am. I'm glad you are telling me everything that happened to you so that you don't have to be alone with it any more. Because you were so alone and so sad - and no one was there for you. But now you are connected to me and even though you can't always feel it, or you feel scared of it, I'm here. I'm here, even when you push me away and I'm not going to go any where. I'll wait - I'll wait until you feel it is safe to reach out for the connection again. I know you are scared about Monday but I promise I'll be there. I'm holding you in my mind, and I want you to feel me with you, keeping you safe."My therapist left me this message today. We had a phone check in scheduled for early this morning to try and cut down some of the anxiety I've been feeling. We've been working on a specific memory - the worst one I have, which (obviously) happened when I was nine. There is this hugely angry part that we refer to as "Nine" and she has been out-of-control needy the past few weeks. It has been particularly bad over the weekends, probably because weekends were so awful for her. The phone check-in was great - my therapist is really good on the phone. But I did not expect him to call back and talk directly to her like that - it surprised me and made me cry. But it also scares me - that he can connect so directly to different parts of me. Is this really OK?
I think what I'm really afraid of is that the safer these parts feel, the more they will tell. And I just don't think I can take *knowing* anymore. And I'm terrified that the anger will get misdirected on to my therapist. Then what will I do? He tells me that the work right now is allowing it all to come out and to feel safe and strong in my connection to him. I work hard to stand on my own two feet and he works hard to help me see that it is OK to need others - not just him - in order to keep standing. I can see how true that is, but I fight it anyway.
Maybe I'm testing him again - can he really hear everything Nine has to tell him?
Posted by Phillipa on November 8, 2008, at 23:36:09
In reply to My therapist's message for Nine, posted by DAisym on November 8, 2008, at 20:00:02
I bet nine hears you loud and clear. Good luck Monday. Love Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 23:51:44
In reply to My therapist's message for Nine, posted by DAisym on November 8, 2008, at 20:00:02
I admire your therapist's ability to connect. As I always do. He really is a marvel. He puts so much into the relationship!
It's not something I totally understand, since I don't think of my emotional and rational self as any particular age. My therapist does, I think. He refers to it indirectly as the age I am when the photos I show him were taken. But my emotional self would argue that age has nothing to do with it, and she's been around the entire nearly fifty years that my body has been around. I'm assuming Little Daisy isn't 9?
I think it would scare me if my therapist addressed any part of me that directly, also. But he knows that and wouldn't do it.
But more importantly, does it feel ok to you? Is nine year old Daisy ok with being left that message? Are you ok with it? Do you feel that it is helpful and addressing your needs?
I think if I had your therapist, I would be inclined to trust him and go with the experience. And that's saying a *lot* coming from me.
Posted by seldomseen on November 9, 2008, at 6:58:05
In reply to My therapist's message for Nine, posted by DAisym on November 8, 2008, at 20:00:02
I completely understand and wholly appreciate how those words would upset Nine. It certainly isn't anything she is used to hearing. But they are true and good and safe. I think she needs to hear those words over an over again. It's really Okay. Are you testing him? Yeah, probably, but if the past is indication - he'll pass with flying colors.
It's also something that I think you need to hear a lot too while you are coming into knowing.
You can handle what Nine may have to say, and even if you can't at the present, I'm sure your therapist can.I've done that in the past, just leave it all with my therapist and let him hold it while I live my life. Little by little he'll hand it back to me. They are great keepers of secrets and pain.
He told me once with such authority that "I'm not afraid of it", all I could think of was Gandalf at the pass saying "you shall not pass".
It's safe. I'm sure of it.
Seldom.
Posted by no_rose_garden on November 9, 2008, at 13:11:52
In reply to Re: My therapist's message for Nine » DAisym, posted by seldomseen on November 9, 2008, at 6:58:05
Sounds like your T really gets you Daisy. I hope I can find somebody like that some day.
Posted by Kath on November 9, 2008, at 14:17:05
In reply to My therapist's message for Nine, posted by DAisym on November 8, 2008, at 20:00:02
Hi Sweetie - actually sweeties - all ages :-)
I am sure he can handle all Nine has to tell him DAisym.
He sounds VERY good.
I am so sorry you had so much pain in your childhood.
love, Kath
Posted by llurpsienoodle on November 9, 2008, at 17:54:00
In reply to My therapist's message for Nine, posted by DAisym on November 8, 2008, at 20:00:02
Hi Daisy,
What a powerful post. Thank you for your courage.>I think what I'm really afraid of is that the safer these parts feel, the more they will tell. And I just don't think I can take *knowing* anymore.
Okay, so that sounds like fear of the unknown becoming known, which is a process you are only too familiar with. Best if taken in small doses, but life doesn't always work that way, huh?
>And I'm terrified that the anger will get misdirected on to my therapist. Then what will I do?
This sounds like you are worried not only about the content of the memory, but about the emotional core of nine. Anger at who? yourself? the situation? nine? present-day-daisym? the offender? Sure sounds like you need a healthy dose of outrage...But maybe you're worried that you will lose control altogether? I think you are stronger than you feel. Out of crisis comes opportunity, etc.
>He tells me that the work right now is allowing it all to come out and to feel safe and strong in my connection to him. I work hard to stand on my own two feet and he works hard to help me see that it is OK to need others - not just him - in order to keep standing. I can see how true that is, but I fight it anyway.And why wouldn't you? Your whole life you have learned that dependence is frightening at worst and unreliable at best. Plus, the culture of America (the meritocracy, etc.) informs us that our independent success is the supreme virtue. Yeah, and most of the the folks with "independent success" are pretty lonely and miserable. It's okay to lean on others, and don't beat yourself up because you find it helpful.
You put yourself in a bind too. 1) you are disappointed that you cannot put your trust in him. 2) you are disappointed that you need to trust him. What a pickle.
Sorry that things are so scary and uncertain right now. The recesses of our minds are unfathomable, but still you are making brave steps. Sometimes it's harder before relief comes
Please take care of you,
-Ll
Posted by TherapyGirl on November 9, 2008, at 21:41:10
In reply to My therapist's message for Nine, posted by DAisym on November 8, 2008, at 20:00:02
I'm sorry you're having such a hard time, Daisy. Your T is a jewel, though. Good for both of you for continuing to do this so well (even when I know it doesn't feel like that to you).
Thanks for sharing this.
Posted by lucie lu on November 11, 2008, at 10:08:07
In reply to My therapist's message for Nine, posted by DAisym on November 8, 2008, at 20:00:02
Daisy,
As always, I admire the courage and commitment you and your T have shown in confronting the demons of your past and pushing through to get to the healing side. You two really are amazing.
I also have an internal 9-year old as well as a 14-year old. I guess they would best be described as dissociated ego states each containing emotional content that I, the adult, have trouble dealing with. My T and I are just starting to really explore this. I don't think there were discrete traumatic events, as sadly happened to you when you were young, just emotional states that reflected painful feelings and periods in my life. What I find interesting is that I experience the 14-year old, the angry and rebellious one trying to deal with sexuality, as a younger version of myself. The 9-year old is hurt and despairing, very needy but alone, completely disconnected. So yesterday in session, my T and I were looking at how the childhood (9-year old) and adult feelings exist side-by-side within me but with no integration. I said that I couldn't hold both in my head at the same time and wondered why. After thinking a moment or two, he said "Let me ask what may seem like a silly question, but -- do you want to?" This was a eureka moment for me, and I practically shouted "No! I don't!" I said that I wanted no part of her and that I hated her vulnerability, hurt, and passive victimization. We didn't get a whole lot farther than that but will certainly return to our discussion in our next meeting.
Apart from the obvious connection, the two 9-year olds, I related to your post in terms of your T's phone message and his approach to Nine. I thought, how nice if my T would say that to my 9-year old, maybe I could accept her if he would. But then came the thought, "No! I don't want my T giving her caring and concern - he's MY T! She doesn't deserve him and she can't have him!" And I realized how very ambivalent I am, and how strongly I resist having her be integrated within me. After all, she serves an important purpose, which is to contain emotional content that I do not want to acknowledge or experience, much less own.
Anyway, Daisy, I too found your post to be powerfully written and valuable to me in making me think more deeply about my own issues. I don't know how one can help being ambivalent when dealing with these issues or even in how we respond to our benevolent T's who are down in the trenches beside us. It seems so paradoxical but I hear this whispering voice saying devaluing things about him and me both for being in the trenches in the first place! It is all so complex and confusing. I wish you healing and success in your journey, and maybe I'll eventually find some too.
Take care,
Lucie
Posted by muffled on November 11, 2008, at 11:14:02
In reply to Re: My therapist's message for Nine » DAisym, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 23:51:44
didn't read all the posts.
what did Nine think?
woulda freaked me, but wow, its good to let littles get what they need too, and crucial to healing.
Manoman, I am so thankful you got the T you got.
I think it is OK to let Nine talk to T direct. Cuz you LNOW T is OK, T not gonna hurt Nine, and you KNOW T is tough and wants to help. So he can handle Nines stuff OK.
Mebbe Nine can tell him stuff and you can not be there? That would be OK, and mebbe T can gently tell you what Nine said(with Nines permission) when he feels you are ready. Or you can ask, or never ask. If Nine wants you to know, then mebbe you will eventually have to know.
It makes me so happy when I hear other peoples ikids is being heard. Makes me real happy. I am happy Nine gots your T too.
I think you movin real good down the road of healing.
I thionk its gonna be OK.
((((safe hugs)))) if anyone wants them.
Posted by muffled on November 11, 2008, at 11:42:30
In reply to My therapist's message for Nine, posted by DAisym on November 8, 2008, at 20:00:02
it ok if I post this post in my journal?
makes me feel weird, but maybe thats ok.
i think its good weird, not sure.
i ask first cuz it your message, not mine, thats why.
OK?
Posted by rskontos on November 11, 2008, at 21:31:25
In reply to Re: My therapist's message for Nine » DAisym, posted by muffled on November 11, 2008, at 11:42:30
Daisym,
Everyone said such wonderful stuff I only add my support to that. I think in your case, let Nine go and let T handle it. The amount of energy to keep the lid on it, would be better handled by your T. He is amazing.
And I wish I could trade me T for yours or one like yours.rsk
Posted by DAisym on November 12, 2008, at 23:40:59
In reply to Re: My therapist's message for Nine » DAisym, posted by Phillipa on November 8, 2008, at 23:36:09
She heard it. But she didn't show up until Tuesday. I think we both needed a break.
Posted by DAisym on November 12, 2008, at 23:54:53
In reply to Re: My therapist's message for Nine » DAisym, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 23:51:44
I'm assuming Little Daisy isn't 9?
***Nope. Little Daisy is 5 or 11. One of the weird things that came up from the message was about Nine not having a name. I've never felt that before but there was a strong question from her about being called her "real" name. I haven't thought about it in forever, but my mom had a nickname for me that I hated at that age, and my dad never called me my name. I think Nine is wanting to be seen and to tell her story. We talked about it in therapy on Monday and my therapist said he has thought for awhile that referring to this part as "nine" is a way to diminish her some - to keep her away from the other parts. I made a joke about it keeping her Borg-like - resistance is futile.
As far as it being OK with being addressed directly, it is confusing. But Nine loved it and I think it is important for *me* to let *her* have it right now.
Posted by DAisym on November 13, 2008, at 0:02:24
In reply to Re: My therapist's message for Nine » DAisym, posted by seldomseen on November 9, 2008, at 6:58:05
Do you promise, Seldom? Because it *feels* safe but I don't really trust myself. Because I've been known to take something safe and stand it on its head.
I love the Gandolf image. I have these moments of entering fully into the feelings of whatever age is "out" - and asking direct questions. The one I've been asking over and over again is, "where were you?! Would you have told? And would you have made them stop? How? And what if they wanted to hurt you too?" He answers so directly and with such confidence - "I know, I wish I'd been there. Because no one was there. I would have told and I would have made them stop. And I would have kept you safe and myself too. And then we would have worked on all these feelings together." It is hard to take in.
Posted by DAisym on November 13, 2008, at 0:04:04
In reply to Re: My therapist's message for Nine, posted by no_rose_garden on November 9, 2008, at 13:11:52
I hope this for you as well. It is so important to have someone who really can help you.
Posted by DAisym on November 13, 2008, at 0:07:20
In reply to ((((((((((((((((((((((you)))))))))))))))))))) » DAisym, posted by Kath on November 9, 2008, at 14:17:05
Thanks for the support Kath. It is scary to trust someone else with all this stuff. But it doesn't seem to want to stay quiet either.
I know the things that happened were not OK. But I struggle because I know others here had it at least as bad if not worse. So sometimes I feel like I'm being overly dramatic. *sigh* There should be some kind of gauge around this.
Posted by DAisym on November 13, 2008, at 0:34:20
In reply to Re: My therapist's message for Nine » DAisym, posted by llurpsienoodle on November 9, 2008, at 17:54:00
Hi Daisy,
What a powerful post. Thank you for your courage.****I don't know about courage. Feels more like whining sometimes. Other times it feels like stuff comes up and out all on its own.
Okay, so that sounds like fear of the unknown becoming known, which is a process you are only too familiar with. Best if taken in small doses, but life doesn't always work that way, huh?
****I keep saying that *this* is a stupid system - This being the way memory works. I keep demanding to know where these memories were buried for so long and why I can't put them back there. He has this whole speech about the psyche having its own time table and we can't rush it nor stop it.
This sounds like you are worried not only about the content of the memory, but about the emotional core of nine. Anger at who? yourself? the situation? nine? present-day-daisym? the offender? Sure sounds like you need a healthy dose of outrage...But maybe you're worried that you will lose control altogether? I think you are stronger than you feel. Out of crisis comes opportunity, etc.
******Whose angry? The adult is outraged - and the Nine year old is pissed beyond belief. Different parts are angry with other parts and Nine is angry with them all. She is super-mad at mom too - which is upsetting to most of me. The revenge fantasies from this age are scary, who knew I could be so creative? And the questions that are driven from the anger are crude and raw - like, "how did the parts even fit?" I make my therapist wince, a lot.
And why wouldn't you? Your whole life you have learned that dependence is frightening at worst and unreliable at best. Plus, the culture of America (the meritocracy, etc.) informs us that our independent success is the supreme virtue. Yeah, and most of the the folks with "independent success" are pretty lonely and miserable. It's okay to lean on others, and don't beat yourself up because you find it helpful.
******I was running the household by the time I was 11 - including looking after a 3 year old sister. And I was highly praised for this skill. So I worked harder and harder to do more and do it better - to rise above the nighttime shame. And you are absolutely right - the "independent success" is pretty lonely. And worse - the fear of finally failing is the worse kind of fear.
You put yourself in a bind too. 1) you are disappointed that you cannot put your trust in him. 2) you are disappointed that you need to trust him. What a pickle.
*********Yeah - a double-bind indeed. I think this is one of the reasons he pushes so hard sometimes and why he simply talks about our connection and his availability like it is expected and routine. He knows it isn't for me but he knows I need him too. He told me on Monday that he thinks one of the things I need from him is for him to remember - even when we aren't talking about it, he still knows.
Thanks for the support.
Posted by DAisym on November 13, 2008, at 0:37:00
In reply to Re: My therapist's message for Nine » DAisym, posted by TherapyGirl on November 9, 2008, at 21:41:10
Thanks for the support. I'm not the only one doing hard work - you certainly are facing some very difficult feelings. I sometimes wish I'd started therapy in my 20s so that i wouldn't have to worry about retirement of my therapist. You are very brave.
Posted by DAisym on November 13, 2008, at 1:13:24
In reply to Re: My therapist's message for Nine » DAisym, posted by lucie lu on November 11, 2008, at 10:08:07
As always, I admire the courage and commitment you and your T have shown in confronting the demons of your past and pushing through to get to the healing side. You two really are amazing.
********Thanks. Like I said above, I'm not sure how much courage there is - it seems to like compulsive disclosure at time.
I also have an internal 9-year old as well as a 14-year old. I guess they would best be described as dissociated ego states each containing emotional content that I, the adult, have trouble dealing with. My T and I are just starting to really explore this.
********I've written about this before but if I hadn't actually experienced the age state feelings, I would have believed how powerful this can be. It isn't that I'm separate, but the feelings are frozen and so real in the moment. It is mind-blowing in some ways.
I don't think there were discrete traumatic events, as sadly happened to you when you were young, just emotional states that reflected painful feelings and periods in my life. What I find interesting is that I experience the 14-year old, the angry and rebellious one trying to deal with sexuality, as a younger version of myself. The 9-year old is hurt and despairing, very needy but alone, completely disconnected. So yesterday in session, my T and I were looking at how the childhood (9-year old) and adult feelings exist side-by-side within me but with no integration. I said that I couldn't hold both in my head at the same time and wondered why. After thinking a moment or two, he said "Let me ask what may seem like a silly question, but -- do you want to?" This was a eureka moment for me, and I practically shouted "No! I don't!" I said that I wanted no part of her and that I hated her vulnerability, hurt, and passive victimization. We didn't get a whole lot farther than that but will certainly return to our discussion in our next meeting.
********I say this a lot, "I hate *her*" - talking about some other part of me. It is difficult to feel sympathy and nurturing, especially for me because *she* didn't ever tell. And if she'd told earlier, so much would have been prevented. We talk about the victim feelings (hate those) and the survivor piece (don't like that label either.) I think we perhaps understand anger better than hurt in ourselves because there is some power in the anger and we feel helpless in the hurt. I think they are mixed - our anger carries hurt underneath and our hurt can emerge to anger if we flame it a bit.
Apart from the obvious connection, the two 9-year olds, I related to your post in terms of your T's phone message and his approach to Nine. I thought, how nice if my T would say that to my 9-year old, maybe I could accept her if he would. But then came the thought, "No! I don't want my T giving her caring and concern - he's MY T! She doesn't deserve him and she can't have him!" And I realized how very ambivalent I am, and how strongly I resist having her be integrated within me. After all, she serves an important purpose, which is to contain emotional content that I do not want to acknowledge or experience, much less own.
********We've had this conversation in therapy. I think this is one of the reasons I go a lot - there are so many things to deal with. Today the Boss really needed the session. Things are crazy and hectic at work and I'm overwhelmed. So we talked about that and the younger parts were quiet. But ironically, my therapist helped me see that as we talk more and more about the abuse, the part of me that needs to be perfect goes into overdrive and I take on more and more - because I can do it better myself and I don't want to ask anyone else to take on anything. It is amazing how it all ties together. And we've talked a lot about talking from age states. I told my therapist that sometimes I feel like it is cheating - that I need to own my history and be able to just tell the stories from me. it is hard though, because things still sit in parts and pieces.
Anyway, Daisy, I too found your post to be powerfully written and valuable to me in making me think more deeply about my own issues. I don't know how one can help being ambivalent when dealing with these issues or even in how we respond to our benevolent T's who are down in the trenches beside us. It seems so paradoxical but I hear this whispering voice saying devaluing things about him and me both for being in the trenches in the first place! It is all so complex and confusing. I wish you healing and success in your journey, and maybe I'll eventually find some too.
****I'm glad what I wrote helped in some way. There are times when I'm not really sure why I'm posting but it feels like it is too much to hold alone. I think that whisper you hear is society who wants us to just "get over it" or "move past it." I think we buy into this. I often question to the value in going into the past but my therapist usually asks - "can you just ignore it? Is it there, or is it here with us now?" Complex is a good word to describe all of this.
I hope you do find healing. I wish that for all of us.
Posted by DAisym on November 13, 2008, at 1:15:53
In reply to Re: My therapist's message for Nine » DAisym, posted by muffled on November 11, 2008, at 11:42:30
Of course you can put this in your journal. Feel free to use it any way that helps.
I know you have scared parts too. I think we just have to keep telling each other that it is OK if they talk and it is OK if someone cares about them.
Posted by DAisym on November 13, 2008, at 1:21:47
In reply to Re: My therapist's message for Nine » muffled, posted by rskontos on November 11, 2008, at 21:31:25
I let Nine go on Tuesday. She told a lot. But she didn't cry, even though it is suppose to be OK to cry. It didn't feel safe enough to do that yet. For her at least.
I know you are struggling with your therapy. I wish it wasn't so hard to find the connection that you need and deserve. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you.
This is the end of the thread.
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