![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 14 to 38 of 38. Go back in thread:
Posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 8:24:34
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke... » llurpsienoodle, posted by Racer on November 7, 2008, at 20:57:30
One thing that I really like about my therapists that I've had past and present is the degree to which they were AUTHENTIC with me. I'm not sure that I could relate to someone who didn't show some cracks around the edges. If your T has a way of making her non-conservative side show, it's nice to be a part of that, in my opinion.
As far as differences between female and male T's. I think that it might actually be easier for me to laugh with a man (deflecting REAL discussion) and cry with a woman (showing some vulnerability). I hadn't thought about that before though. Interesting...
-Ll
Posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 8:30:29
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke... » llurpsienoodle, posted by Bobby on November 7, 2008, at 21:59:06
> By chance---does your therapist go by the name of manic666? I'm sorry you found it hurtful---but perhaps he just feels comfortable enough with you to let down his guard --to be on that level.
I hope so, and he has given me some indications of that, but I think he is still able to respect his role of "therapist" rather than buddy or mentor. When I have perceived the boundaries as being invaded in the past, I have gotten very upset and we have had discussions about that.
>I certainly possess no skills to discern beyond just being a male trying to read objectively. As long as it doesn't progress towards being suggestive-it wouldn't bother me. But women, especially those who have been victims of abuse and/or those who feel vulnerable, are particularly sensitive to anything that remotely puts their emotions at risk. If it continues to make you uncomfortable after due thought--you bet I'd tell him. It's your mental health on the table--not his. As long as he's being paid for his services--he should conduct himself in a manner that becomes his profession.I think you make good points here. I hope that my T would be sensitive enough to know when I was in a state of mind to appreciate his "sick" sense of humor and when it would be damaging to the therapeutic process.
>I should shut up! I know there's a reason I don't post here on psychology--I'm frightened by the prospect that someone will be influenced by the ramblings of a madman! Good luck--that's what I should have said. :)
Bobby, I'm honored that you DID make it over to this board, because you have a lot to offer. Don't be so modest. You have a good perspective and are a very sensitive guy, which can be appreciated in all areas of life, and certainly on the /psychology/ board. Good luck to you!
-Ll
Posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 8:40:11
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke..., posted by DAisym on November 7, 2008, at 22:30:05
> Earlier this week we were talking about sex and how upsetting "surprises" could be in that realm for me. I was describing something specific and he said (completely seriously), "that must have been so hard for you to take in." OK - so I came to a dead stop and looked at him and he realized what he'd said. He started to stammer, and I started to laugh and he finally just said, "oh hell, you know what I meant."
>
> :) Sometimes it is fun to watch them squirm a bit.Oh most definitely! Remind them that we ARE paying attention to their comments and interpretations. Sometimes I go too far and start to (over?) interpret his choice of words. Sometimes he uses words that clearly belong to an older generation, and that cracks me up. like "gals" etc. but I try not to embarrass him unnecessarily.
I hope his joke was a sign of his comfort in interacting with me. He has told me before that it is very easy to sit in a session with me. That I am a good talker (no sh*t, really?) and that I am intellectual enough to appreciate some of his more esoteric comments.
Of course, knowing THAT, I worry that he won't bring all of his talents to bear on sessions with me, spending the time instead to have some kind of casual conversation because I am easy to talk to. It's a fine line, I suppose. I want to be liked, but I also want to be taken seriously. The story of my life.
Posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 8:55:35
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke... » llurpsienoodle, posted by seldomseen on November 8, 2008, at 7:51:48
> THe litter box joke was out of line, but I have to admit, it would have cracked me up as well. I laughed when I read it.
>
> I think there is a lot of good in levity in therapy, but sometimes you need to talk about it. It helps to take the edge off some pretty intense feelings and relieves the drama of therapy.
>
> Seldom.Yep, definitely-- Sometimes, recently I have started crying after a session, because some deep nerve was touched. Even though I was pretty chatty during the session, I was sitting there with a lot of bodily tension. And then I LOST it driving home. Sometimes I feel that I use the humor to avoid talking about this scary stuff, but obviously it gets stirred up anyways. I just wish I could express my grief in the session, where it could become part of the discussion.
-Ll
>
>
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 9:20:02
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke... » DAisym, posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 8:40:11
> One thing that I really like about my therapists that I've had past and present is the degree to which they were AUTHENTIC with me.
> Of course, knowing THAT, I worry that he won't bring all of his talents to bear on sessions with me, spending the time instead to have some kind of casual conversation because I am easy to talk to. It's a fine line, I suppose. I want to be liked, but I also want to be taken seriously. The story of my life.
I've been meaning to start a thread on this topic myself. The tradeoffs involved in having an authentic therapist. And also in feeling comfortable with a therapist. I've noticed that since my therapist has started feeling so comfortable with me, that I have to keep an eye on things to make sure that it doesn't interfere with my legitimate needs in therapy.
I smiled when I read your original post because it sounds like something my therapist might blurt out. Maybe not the sexual stuff, because he would find it inappropriate given the nature of our relationship. But maybe things that are in bad taste or that might tell me things about him I might not precisely need to hear.
I do tell him if something bothers me, but I find it a bit more difficult to complain about things that show his trust and comfort with me. And I always figure that I have to make a choice. If I insist that he bring his real self to the session, and not use his professional mask, I have to expect some of that.
I do notice that some therapists tend to deflect the hard stuff with humor, or with discussions of interesting topics. My therapist does it very occasionally. Sometimes because he gives in to his desire to "fix" things, or is upset that I'm upset. Sometimes I think it's because his personal resources are taxed and deflecting is easier for him. There *are* some sessions where I find it genuinely helpful. But I keep an eye on that too, and let him know when I see it.
I can see where it would be a temptation for him. He sees a lot of low functioning patients. He's likely worn down sometimes. Not only are you high functioning, but he can talk in a collegial manner with you. I'm sure it's a huge temptation to bump you into appearing well, and getting the side benefit of an interesting conversation. He might even think he's doing a good thing. If he works with a low functioning population in general, his usual best course of action might be to prop defenses and keep people functioning as best as may be. Not discourage people from their customary defenses to explore the underlying affect.
There are times when you may need one, and times when you might need the other. If you think he's colluding with you, or even encouraging you in deflecting with humor, it may be up to you to call him on it. This isn't a perfect world, and they aren't always right.
The joke may have been inappropriate for you (although it wouldn't have bothered me, so perhaps it's not so shocking for him not to know). But I think the bigger problem might be that he is propping your defenses and deflecting the problems.
>>>Sometimes, recently I have started crying after a session, because some deep nerve was touched. Even though I was pretty chatty during the session, I was sitting there with a lot of bodily tension. And then I LOST it driving home. Sometimes I feel that I use the humor to avoid talking about this scary stuff, but obviously it gets stirred up anyways. I just wish I could express my grief in the session, where it could become part of the discussion.<<<
By all means, tell him that the joke was inappropriate for him to tell you. But you might want to read him the above paragraph too. And ask him if his style with his lower functioning clients might be interfering with his ability to help you express your grief in session.
Just my own two cents based on a therapy that can sometimes have a similar problem.
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 9:20:37
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke... » seldomseen, posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 8:55:35
Posted by Phillipa on November 8, 2008, at 13:12:36
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke..., posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 9:20:02
Well I know I'm wierd but when seeing the therapist set my own limits told sex was off limits in our discussions. I set my own boundaries and she did abide by them. None of her business that's just my thought. Phillipa
Posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 14:38:06
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke..., posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 9:20:02
Oops, sorry to be misleading-- my T is retired from the hospital, and now has only a private practice. His cases range from functional but bored older women to dysfunctional relationships to schizophrenia.
He told me once that when someone comes to him for help, and he agrees to take them on, he will stick with them no matter what. He posed the question "Would an EMT drive to an accident scene and decide that it's too bloody and then go home?"
something like that
It's nice to hear that I'm not the only one with concerns about the nature of therapy given the possibility for friendly banter.
-Ll
Posted by Racer on November 8, 2008, at 20:24:21
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke... » Racer, posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 8:24:34
> As far as differences between female and male T's. I think that it might actually be easier for me to laugh with a man (deflecting REAL discussion) and cry with a woman (showing some vulnerability). I hadn't thought about that before though. Interesting...
>Oh, that's a big one for me -- I am pretty sure I couldn't work with a man. Well, maybe I'm coming close to that point now, and I have always thought some day I would benefit a great deal by working with a male therapist, but that day sure ain't here yet...
Not, you understand, that I would be, like, hiding under furniture or something...
(In the closet, behind the door, under the sofa cushions -- but not under the furniture...)
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 21:03:31
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke... » Dinah, posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 14:38:06
That doesn't negate the possibility that he might tend to prop defenses, in the interest of functioning. Which is fine, if both of you realize it and accept it. My therapist does it himself sometimes, and depending on what I need at the moment, I might let him.
What concerned me was the fact that you said that you wished you could find the feelings in session rather than after. Admittedly, time bomb reactions are common. But if you're feeling unable to access those things in session, it might bear considering whether his intellectual banter and humor contributes to that inability.
I've noticed it in various therapists, as described by Babblers, and I'm never sure if it's a good thing to point out or not. :) After all, they're the professionals and there is some part of me that thinks they just might know what ant hills to leave unpoked.
Posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 21:37:37
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke... » llurpsienoodle, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 21:03:31
Hi Dinah,
My T and I have been working on my lousy self-esteem forever. Sometimes I know that he is trying to prop up my defenses, and so does he. I'm only concerned when it becomes automatic and not considered. Sure, it helps his ego to get a depressed person to laugh out loud for the first time in days, but hopefully he is doing it for MY ego, not his.Writing responses to this thread is giving me the gumption to actually talk about some of these issues in my next session[s]. I don't like feeling broken when I leave therapy-- not a good feeling at all. A few months ago we had some tension, and he got a little grumpy with me (I wanted to know what his treatment plan for me was, and he became defensive, I left him a teary voicemail and maybe we sorted some things out, but not everything?), and since then I have probably been more guarded than usual. I think I will become a better consumer of my therapy in November.
-Ll
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 21:52:01
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke... » Dinah, posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 21:37:37
:-)
That's how I feel about it too. Anything's ok, and anything can be just right at the moment, as long as it's a decision considered by at least one of us. (Well, within reason of course.)
It's a real challenge to have those conversations without being confrontational or wounding their egos. Believe me, I know. My therapist's ego is amazingly easy to bruise when it comes to his professional competence. It seems to me that you'll be able to do it though. You have a real facility with expression. And I'll bet you also have the ability to know when to broach the subject and when to back off. It's a challenge to strengthen rather than damage a relationship with frankness, but it can be a real boost to self esteem to manage to do it.
And it may be when you reflect on it that he's doing the exact right amount of delving and propping. It's a delicate balance, and the balance is different for every therapy dyad. Maybe at this time in your therapy, he's doing just the right thing.
Posted by twinleaf on November 8, 2008, at 22:08:33
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke... » llurpsienoodle, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 21:52:01
It's hard to say this, but I don't think it can ever be helpful to us when we have to begin gauging how much of our real feelings and thoughts we can safely express in our times with our therapists. We really need to express the most painful and difficult things- as my analyst said a while ago, " you just told me you were working hard from the time you woke up (at 7) until the time you saw me (at 9) to bring a more positive, hopeful self in here. It would be wonderful if the the part of you which is the most alone, hopeless and discouraged could come in here and visit with me." I've never heard anything like that, and am trying my best to do it. I feel so grateful to have a therapist who is equal to the worst things; at the moment, he is, more than me.
Posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 22:35:20
In reply to a thought..., posted by twinleaf on November 8, 2008, at 22:08:33
Oh, it's SOO hard! twinleaf, do you do free-association with your T? (you're in analysis, right? unless I'm horribly confused...
I tried this once as an exercise. Utterly terrifying. I found that I could NOT turn off my self-censor. It's stronger than my actual stream of consciousness! (curses). I barely lasted 3 minutes. Of course, I was giggling most of the time. See? another interesting reaction to psychological distress... I have a feeling that some mindfulness meditation would allow my self-censor to take a vacation, but yet I resist... So difficult is this therapy thing.
-Ll
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 22:41:37
In reply to a thought..., posted by twinleaf on November 8, 2008, at 22:08:33
Well... I do agree.
And I don't think there's anything I've ever thought that I haven't told him.
But I'd be lying if I said I didn't consider *how* I told him. We're in a long term relationship, and one in which I demand that he be real and authentic. The books may say that I have no responsibility to relationship maintenance, but the reality is that if I want the kind of relationship I want with him, it behooves me to do some of the same relationship building I would do with anyone I want to have a long term relationship with. The money I pay with him entitles me to some things, but not everything I want from him.
Posted by twinleaf on November 8, 2008, at 22:51:30
In reply to Re: a thought... » twinleaf, posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 22:35:20
Well, yes, I do go to a psychoanalyst, but I go three times a week, and sit up facing him, so it's kind of close to analysis, but isn't, really. He is extremely well trained in psychoanalysis, so right from day one he has expected me to say EVERYTHING. I also giggle, cry, begin tearing my hair out (I lost almost all of the hair on the right side of my head a year ago, and I kind of gauge how things are going according to how well my hair is growing in), but, still, he really does need me to say everything I possibly can, because, if I don't, he's lacking the information he needs to truly understand me. What he really wants is the stuff i don't want to tell him!
It's so true- therapy is just HARD. I do think, over the long run, we, as patients, will do our best if we have a therapist who can hear what we really need to say.
Posted by twinleaf on November 8, 2008, at 23:03:56
In reply to Re: a thought... » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 22:41:37
Dinah, you are just so smart! You know what you need, and you also kind of know what you might want or need if you had a different therapist- but since your have YOURS you know enough to want what you can reasonably get, and to not get shipwrecked wanting things which you can't get. Really, the proof is in the pudding! Having known you here for about five years, I can say that you never mention "meltdowns" anymore, you have a different (and probably much more satisfying) relationship with your husband,and you just sound, in general, like a far stronger and happier person.
What a wonderful accomplishment for you and your therapist.
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 23:41:22
In reply to Re: a thought... » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on November 8, 2008, at 23:03:56
I think that's true, and thank you. :)
I wouldn't say I don't have meltdowns anymore. But I probably do understand the process better and can shorten them and/or minimize the effect - usually. Not always certainly.
My therapist says I have an absolute genius for figuring out what I need, and getting it. And I know I'm pretty good about loving what I've got. It's the pragmatist in me. I'm pretty pragmatic about setting out to achieve my goals. And I'm pretty pragmatic about accepting what I have and not trying to make it anything else.
But do others really give no thought to relationship development and maintenance with their therapists?
Yes, I know they're professionals. And I know it's not our jobs and that I don't have to. I think of it more as a hobby. :)
I don't think I was always that way. Or maybe I was, and I just never recognized it in myself. But I've seen my therapist through so much that I can't help but be aware of his human-ness. And I have *always* liked being able to reach him on that level. It used to be a rare treat. Now it's a warm knowledge. I don't know what I'd do without it. It doesn't stop me from getting "better", so it seems like a wise investment.
Posted by twinleaf on November 9, 2008, at 10:11:24
In reply to Re: a thought... » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 23:41:22
Because my therapy is extremely psychoanalytic in nature, it utilizes transference and countertransference as important vehicles for understanding and change. Like everyone, I want my relationship with him to be a source of comfort and joyful intimacy. HE wants it to be that way, too. But the realities of my past relationships with my parents keep intruding. I will react to him, at times, as if he were my distant mother or punitive father. It's very uncomfortable when that happens, but he especially welcomes these times- he wants me to bring into the therapy hours the most painful events and feelings from my life and past. Then I have an opportunity to sort of pass them through his brain; when he slowly and carefully returns them to me, a new element of comfort and strength is there.
In order to have this work effectively, you do have to say EVERYTHING. That is extremely hard work, and there isn't any place for deciding not to say something because he might be offended or become defensive. I guess that's why analytic training takes so long- they spend many years in a personal psychoanalysis and about five or more years in post-graduate training (that's after they have finished an MD. PHD or DSW, and also after three or more years of psychiatric residency). They are all middle-aged by he time they get all this done!
My analyst is a great guy- very calm and steady, very smart and interesting, witty, warm and hopeful, I would love to sit there and just bathe in his delightful personality- if only those transferences didn't ruin everything!
Posted by Partlycloudy on November 10, 2008, at 6:45:23
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke... » llurpsienoodle, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2008, at 21:03:31
>
> What concerned me was the fact that you said that you wished you could find the feelings in session rather than after. Admittedly, time bomb reactions are common. But if you're feeling unable to access those things in session, it might bear considering whether his intellectual banter and humor contributes to that inability.I picked up on this post because one of the things we work on in my sessions is bringing the reaction to upsetting things closer to the actual event. It's not been uncommon for me to sail blithely through an event pretty much with my poker face in face, even as I'm dying inside, only to crawl into my car and bawl crying all the way home. The goal for us has been to start to shorten that genuine reaction time, not to eliminate the reaction or smooth it out. Interesting. Take my poker face, which is hiding how I'm really feeling, and retire that one as it doesn't belong any more. It served me better when I was a child and perhaps needed it to protect myself from being beaten, but it's no longer needed to come between me and my feelings.
PartlyCloudy
Posted by llurpsienoodle on November 10, 2008, at 7:21:51
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke..., posted by Partlycloudy on November 10, 2008, at 6:45:23
The thing about having a genuine emotional reaction at the time and place of an event is that we actually have the power to change how things unfold. Like you, I often smile and nod and go along with things. Sometimes I know at the time that I'm hiding things, but other times, it seems perfectly natural to behave in this way... until it catches up. But your post made me think about how things might unfold differently if I'm able to express anger, sadness, joy, disgust, etc in the moment. People might change how they look at me and figure out that "the event" is not unfolding under the best circumstances.
I like that way of thinking about things, because I'm often left wondering what "my problem" is-- is it that I'm too emotional, not emotional enough, too reactive, too passive. what? But changing the time frame of my reaction to events makes a lot of sense to me. Thank you
-Ll
Posted by muffled on November 10, 2008, at 17:24:18
In reply to My T makes an inappropriate joke..., posted by llurpsienoodle on November 7, 2008, at 13:35:47
I don't think the joke is so bad, depends on circumstances and how it was in the room at the time I guess.
But I would worry about keeping good boundaries so it don't get too 'chatty'. I can see as it would be challenging given both of your personalties and backgrounds, training etc.
This T of yours seems OK. Just keep your eyes open to it not working any more.
Hope you can ask him bout this whole thing...and tell us!!!
There's sure been some smart stuffr posted. I have enjoyed reading this thread.
M
Posted by lucie lu on November 11, 2008, at 9:04:04
In reply to My T makes an inappropriate joke..., posted by llurpsienoodle on November 7, 2008, at 13:35:47
Hi Llurpsie,
This has been a very interesting thread to read. I can understand how unsettling that comment must have been - I think my jaw would just drop if it came out of my T's mouth during a session! Nonetheless, it was very witty and I laughed when I read it. Just to offer another possibility, since he has been trying to get you to explore sensitive areas involving sex, could he be using humor to normalize or de-fuse the topic? Maybe he's offering you a route to addressing the subject in a less threatening manner? Maybe that was part of his most recent therapy plan (to bring a lighter atmosphere into your therapy and discussion of this topic) but he was clumsy at this first effort? Given his own dry sense of humor, that he saw an opportunity that was too irresistible to pass up? So it might have been made in the service of your therapy rather than undermining it, and just not doing so very adeptly. I also think this shows his trust in you and your relationship, which in itself must make you feel good.
My intention is not at all to dismiss your understandable reaction or concerns, but to raise another set of possibilities. I think we'll all be interested in the follow-up to your story after you have had a chance to raise it with him! If you feel like sharing it, of course.
And Llurpsie, I read somewhere on this board or another one that you feel you have nothing to contribute. Did you mean to a specific board or to Babble in general? I always read your posts here and enjoy your insightful and caring responses. I think you do contribute a lot. Anyway it is not about how often you post, it's what you say when you post.
Best,
Lucie
Posted by llurpsienoodle on November 11, 2008, at 9:31:36
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke... » llurpsienoodle, posted by lucie lu on November 11, 2008, at 9:04:04
> Hi Llurpsie,
>
> This has been a very interesting thread to read. I can understand how unsettling that comment must have been - I think my jaw would just drop if it came out of my T's mouth during a session! Nonetheless, it was very witty and I laughed when I read it. Just to offer another possibility, since he has been trying to get you to explore sensitive areas involving sex, could he be using humor to normalize or de-fuse the topic? Maybe he's offering you a route to addressing the subject in a less threatening manner? Maybe that was part of his most recent therapy plan (to bring a lighter atmosphere into your therapy and discussion of this topic) but he was clumsy at this first effort? Given his own dry sense of humor, that he saw an opportunity that was too irresistible to pass up? So it might have been made in the service of your therapy rather than undermining it, and just not doing so very adeptly. I also think this shows his trust in you and your relationship, which in itself must make you feel good.
>
> My intention is not at all to dismiss your understandable reaction or concerns, but to raise another set of possibilities. I think we'll all be interested in the follow-up to your story after you have had a chance to raise it with him! If you feel like sharing it, of course.I think your interpretation is quite valid. I'm so torn between being appalled and being amused that many of the views expressed in this thread seem applicable and useful. So I really appreciate all the feedback I've gotten. It's given me courage, and possibilities for further exploring 1) my relationship with my T, 2) my views about my sexuality, 3) my ability to be open in therapy, 4) ways to best communicate 1,2,3 with my T.
>
> And Llurpsie, I read somewhere on this board or another one that you feel you have nothing to contribute. Did you mean to a specific board or to Babble in general? I always read your posts here and enjoy your insightful and caring responses. I think you do contribute a lot. Anyway it is not about how often you post, it's what you say when you post.Aww, LucieLu, you are a sweetie :) I go through periods of self-loathing in which I truly feel like I have nothing to offer this world besides contributing greenhouse gases to my environment. Mostly I have no idea how to respond to a thread- should I offer suggestions? should I help to soothe hurt feelings? should I be blunt? indirect? hmmm. So many possibilities. I'm sure I'm not alone when I write and rewrite and delete and rewrite responses. Then there are other times when I am too impulsive in my responses. Reckless? But often going on a gut feeling is the best response to a difficult situation..
blabbering on---
Thank you again for you post,
-Ll
Posted by lucie lu on November 11, 2008, at 10:16:19
In reply to Re: My T makes an inappropriate joke... » lucie lu, posted by llurpsienoodle on November 11, 2008, at 9:31:36
This is the end of the thread.
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