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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by raisinb on January 19, 2008, at 9:07:41
My T and I have been having a difference of opinion for the last few weeks. It started a while back, when she said something that I felt was very hurtful, and I had a very strong reaction, and ended up quitting for a little over a month. I decided to go back, but we are still resolving what happened.
In a nutshell, here's the argument: I say that I need (and she should provide) a "safe" environment--therefore, she shouldn't say things that she knows will hurt me. She says that she wants me to feel safe and accepted, but that "sometimes as a therapist I feel the need to say things I know will hurt" for therapeutic reasons. Inside, my reaction is "you are going to hurt me knowingly!!? How can I trust you?"
My response has been to shut down, to refuse to answer questions on certain topics or any questions about feelings, stating that I simply can't open up if I know she might come in and hurt me when I'm vulnerable. She is worried and upset by this but says she can't guarantee that what happened before won't happen again. It's turned into a bit of a standoff--not an acrimonious one, but still, a standoff.
It's complicated by the fact that I feel *good* setting limits with her. It makes me feel stronger, less vulnerable, and more like I am taking care of myself, rather than waiting for her to do it (and knowing that she'll fail sometimes).
So am I being unreasonable, or is she being mean?
Posted by Dinah on January 19, 2008, at 9:49:40
In reply to thoughts on this?, posted by raisinb on January 19, 2008, at 9:07:41
I'll speak here as a mom, although my therapist has told me similar things at times.
At times as a mom, the loving thing to do is not to make your child feel good all the time. Sometimes the loving thing to do is to hurt your child's feelings, however much you love your child, to try to prevent larger hurts from those who might not love him. Or hurts that he might bring on himself.
I've held my son and rocked him as I've said something that hurt his feelings but needed to be said. I didn't do it unkindly. I presented it as something that might not have been a wise choice, or that he might not have been educated about yet. Not anymore perhaps, since he's absorbed the salient points.
You don't have to do it unlovingly, or harshly. A spoonful of sugar really does help the medicine go down. If your therapist is hurting you thoughtlessly, or hurting you harshly, I can see where that might be wrong.
And as Daisy said in an earlier post, having a therapist accept where you are now before trying to guide you into a problem solving mode is helpful.
If *all* she did was validate you, you might feel better without getting better. If she never validates you, you aren't likely to want her help in getting better.
So I guess I ask you do you think your therapist says things that hurt sometimes because she wants the best for you? Do you think she tries to minimize the hurt? Do you think it hurts her to hurt you? Does she use a spoonful of sugar with that dose of medicine? Knowing that she might say something that hurts when you're feeling vulnerable *is* scary. But if you can feel the caring when she does it, wouldn't it be more scary if she wasn't willing to do something that she didn't find comfortable either but she thought would help you?
When I was little, I got stitches. I had to have my bandaid changed every so often. I hated that, and would run screeching from one parent to the other alternately deciding it would be better to yank it off quickly or ease it up slowly. I guarantee you that this was just as painful for my parents as it was for me. But they wouldn't have been very good parents had they decided it was too much trouble to remove the bandaid, that it hurt me too much, and that they'd just let me keep the one on.
Maybe you can still keep some control by coming up with a compromise position? My therapist and I have often discussed this. The manner of delivery, the timing. That sometimes I don't want things to be fixed, I just want to be heard. Then he can say stuff later.
And if she is harsh, and doesn't seem to mind, that's another issue entirely.
Posted by MissK on January 19, 2008, at 10:06:19
In reply to thoughts on this?, posted by raisinb on January 19, 2008, at 9:07:41
My thoughts:
Part of the 'safe' therpeutic environment is the safety of the client to feel and express his/her hurt and vulnerability.
Not knowing what she said, all I can ask is: was what she said right and true in regards to whatever the subject was you were discussing at the time?
I've not experienced being directly hurt by my T. I have experienced feeling hurt with the understandings she helps me arrive at while we are talking sometimes.
If it were me, I would try to make the distinction between her hurting me personally and feeling hurt because of what we are discussing.
>My response has been to shut down, to refuse to answer questions on certain topics or any questions about feelings,
Sounds like there is still more that you want to tell her and have her understand about the hurt you felt. So do it.
> but says she can't guarantee that what happened before won't happen again.
She's right. She won't always know how you are going to process the therapy she provides. She's there, hopefully, to respond and help with how you do though.
>So am I being unreasonable, or is she being mean?
By the way you wrote abot it, it doesn't sound like she's being mean. As for you being unreasonable, again I don't know what she said exactly or if what she said was right and true in the context of what you were discussing.
Hope it resolves.
Posted by sunnydays on January 19, 2008, at 10:22:48
In reply to thoughts on this?, posted by raisinb on January 19, 2008, at 9:07:41
My T has told me sometimes that he knows what things will upset me (such as challenging some of my maladaptive thoughts), but that he's going to challenge me anyway. That it's the only way to help change my reaction. And that there can't be things in our relationship that can't be said, or we are just perpetuating the cycle of secret-keeping and avoidance that I've lived with all my life. And that he understands how hurt I feel, but that this is the way to work through it. And that he will try to provide reassurance along with the challenging. Could this be what your T means?
sunnydays
Posted by raisinb on January 19, 2008, at 11:24:06
In reply to Re: thoughts on this? » raisinb, posted by Dinah on January 19, 2008, at 9:49:40
Thanks for the feedback, guys. Dinah, I loved your analogy about rocking your son while you say something difficult.
Intellectually, I understand that a therapist's job entails saying things that might hurt sometimes--otherwise, how would we get feedback? But I guess I feel that it takes a certain level of trust in the relationship for a client to feel that the interpretation was made out of caring. My T and I just don't have that. I wish we did (and it might materialize) but we don't. And every time she says or does something that hurts me, I feel like it delays that happening.
I guess I'm not perceiving the "spoonful of sugar," either. To me, it seems like she often jumps in and interprets or (what feels like) criticism when I'm doing just fine on my own--being vulnerable, taking a good hard look at myself, etc. One of the ironies of the situation is that things she says are often insights I'd arrive at on my own, if she hadn't jumped in and made the interpretations prematurely, hurt my feelings, caused a bunch of angry exchange, and messed up the process. To me (and this is pure speculation, probably mixed with a good dose of negative transference) these hurtful comments often feel like an attempt to control what's going on in the moment and to make herself sound smart.
In short, no, it doesn't *feel* caring, no matter how she might *intend* it. It also makes me feel as if all her statements about how much she wants a good strong connection with me, wants me to trust her, and feel safe, are not to be totally believed. Emotionally I feel like if she did want that, why does she keep hurting me?
Also, I spent two and a half years in intense, obsessive transference (sometimes wanting a mother, sometimes sexual, mixed with hatred and anger and everything else). This is the first time I have felt like I maybe I *can* get over it, get out of it, and be free, that my life is just fine without therapist-obsession at the center. I feel great and I'm making some really positive changes.
I know that what I'm doing is resisting therapy in the worst way, and I know that a little bit of it is an attempt to punish her (which I'm not proud of). All we do is sit there with long silences, broken up by her questions, and my "I don't feel comfortable"s answering that. But emotionally it feels fantastic, like I'm suddenly taking control of the kind of hurtful relationship pattern I've been stuck in my whole life.
This stuff is all so hard to sort out.
Posted by MissK on January 19, 2008, at 11:46:09
In reply to Re: thoughts on this?, posted by raisinb on January 19, 2008, at 11:24:06
>This stuff is all so hard to sort out.
With what you wrote, it sounds to me like you've sorted out quite a bit for yourself.
Posted by Dinah on January 19, 2008, at 12:16:11
In reply to Re: thoughts on this?, posted by raisinb on January 19, 2008, at 11:24:06
I *totally* get that.
I've often thought the reason that my therapist is so perfect for me is not his brilliant insights. It's more that he lets me figure stuff out for myself. He suggests things, and indirectly leads me. But he lets me have the aha moments myself.
It may be a control issue, but I'm thinking it's more a patience issue. My therapist is very patient and lets me change in my own time. I don't know if he's that way with everyone, or if he just knows that it's the best way to work with me.
I suspect it's the latter. I remember a period after a lot of fighting where the fighting seemed to stop. I asked him about it maybe a year or so later, and he said that he just came to the conclusion that I wasn't going to change until he accepted me just as I was. So he worked on accepting and let me work on change.
I can be led or coaxed into change. I'll do things for love that I'd never do for myself. But if I'm driven, I'll dig in my heels and hold firm. I suppose that's a less than admirable trait in me. At least in some situations, such as when someone's trying to help me. In other situations it's a useful adaptive trait. If I were perfectly adjusted, I suppose I'd think each time which response is appropriate.
The funny thing is that after all this time I'm now starting to remind him of some of the stuff he said to me years ago, and find wisdom in it. While when he first proposed it, I snorted and scoffed.
Can you bring your last post in and read it? Or parts of it?
Posted by MissK on January 19, 2008, at 12:21:46
In reply to Re: thoughts on this?, posted by raisinb on January 19, 2008, at 11:24:06
>It's complicated by the fact that I feel *good* setting limits with her.
>All we do is sit there with long silences
>But emotionally it feels fantastic,
>I feel great and I'm making some really positive changes.
It occured to me - all this talk about opening up, maybe it can be equally therapeutic sometimes to not share one single, d*mn thought with the therapist.Interesting.
Posted by raisinb on January 19, 2008, at 12:42:58
In reply to Re: thoughts on this? » raisinb, posted by Dinah on January 19, 2008, at 12:16:11
Yes--I can think--or say--things about myself that devastate me when I find out that's what *she* thinks of me or how she sees me. I suppose at bottom I want her to contradict my negative feelings about myself, not confirm them.
And if I'm feeling attacked or criticized--in any area--I always fight and dig my heels in. Causes me a few problems at work sometimes :)
I might do that--bring in the post. Always a good idea.
Posted by raisinb on January 19, 2008, at 12:52:34
In reply to Re: thoughts on this? » raisinb, posted by MissK on January 19, 2008, at 12:21:46
<<It occured to me - all this talk about opening up, maybe it can be equally therapeutic sometimes to not share one single, d*mn thought with the therapist.
Interesting.>>
That's how it feels--like I am finally learning to set some boundaries and it feels good. My T and I have been working this whole time with the assumption that the goal is for me to learn to trust her, and subsequently to learn to trust other people.
She said to me the other day that she didn't know if I was ever going to be able to trust her again, or if that was even my goal. I realized then that *I* didn't know if it was still my goal either! Maybe all this time, what I needed to learn was to trust *myself,* instead of worrying about how much I trusted her, and to set limits. Or maybe the two aren't mutually exclusive? Maybe they go together somehow? If I feel more secure and accepting of myself, less needy of her approval, I am less devastated by her judgments? I don't know.
She is definitely not on board with this new approach of mine, which is why I thought I'd get others' thoughts. Although we aren't technically fighting, it's a pretty serious difference about where we are going and what's good for me.
I wish I didn't feel like she's sitting there with a big spear, and as soon as I uncover my sensitive parts, she's gonna stab me with it.
Posted by Phillipa on January 19, 2008, at 13:01:12
In reply to Re: thoughts on this?, posted by raisinb on January 19, 2008, at 12:42:58
Oh boy here I am old and do the same thing. I internally criticize myself so much that when someone else does it I get like a child won't talk, slump down in the chair and can't wait to get out of there. I just want her to say I'm doing better or something not worse already know that. Love Phillipa I relate.
Posted by seldomseen on January 19, 2008, at 14:03:39
In reply to Re: thoughts on this?, posted by raisinb on January 19, 2008, at 12:52:34
"If I feel more secure and accepting of myself, less needy of her approval, I am less devastated by her judgments? I don't know."
You said it sister! That is exactly how my therapy progressed.
At first when my therapist told me something - even though it was right - I would get mad because, well, because I hated everybody then. Then as I progressed, he would tell me things and I was would be devastated at how hurtful it was. Then, I went through a phase when I started listening to absolutely everything he said.
Now, I'm pretty much in the place where decide for myself if he's right or just way out in left field. I can trust myself enough to weigh his input, give it some objective thought and move forward. I gotta say - both he and I are pretty darn happy with that.
Everytime I tell him I think he is way out there, we both have a good laugh.
He's a good guy.
It sounds as though you are moving in that direction yourself. Yeah it hurts and I'm sorry. But it does get better.
Seldom.
Posted by MissK on January 19, 2008, at 19:29:13
In reply to Re: thoughts on this?, posted by raisinb on January 19, 2008, at 12:52:34
> I realized then that *I* didn't know if it was still my goal either
Did you tell her when you realized?
>She is definitely not on board with this new approach of mine
Maybe hear her out? She may see something that you don't and decide from there.
Posted by raisinb on January 20, 2008, at 15:52:40
In reply to Re: thoughts on this?, posted by raisinb on January 19, 2008, at 12:52:34
Yes, I'll hear her out. I know intellectually that she is right--what is the point of going twice a week and sitting there refusing to talk about anything important?
However...emotionally, inner-little-kid-wise, I can't think of one reason why opening up to her again would be to my advantage. It hurts!
Posted by raisinb on January 25, 2008, at 19:03:31
In reply to thoughts on this?, posted by raisinb on January 19, 2008, at 9:07:41
So now we *are* fighting. I had a heck of a session yesterday. She *yelled* at me (well, her voice wasn't that loud, but it was yelling).
She kept pressuring me to open up (well, at least it felt like pressure), and I refused, and started criticizing her for how she hasn't been trustworthy with me, so why should I trust her? (I do say this kind of thing a lot, so perhaps she is getting tired of it).
I told her I had a reason for making this decision (to not open up and detach emotionally), and I've explained why I'm doing it multiple times. She said that I was simply detaching from her and gearing myself up to quit, that it wasn't a *decision*, that it was a "response" because I was angry with her, that I was talking, but I just talked about "stupid stuff that has no meaning to you" and that every question she tried didn't work (these are all overstatements. I answer her questions when I'm comfortable, and I do talk about stuff that has meaning to me).
She also said that she didn't want to fight with me, so I offered to change the subject (more than once). She didn't want this, either, because we wouldn't "resolve" the situation then. So we kept fighting. It's the maddest I've ever seen her. It felt like I was the calm one, but that reason and trying to defuse the situation didn't work.
I understand her position, but at this point I'm not in the mood to cave to what feels like bullying. Also, as illogical as it may be, this detachment is working for me, and I'm loathe to give it up. Formerly, after a bad fight with her, I'd cry and be depressed and have difficulty at work for days. Now, I'm okay and my life isn't suffering.
Are we supposed to be fighting like this? It's been going on for two years and I'm tired of it. I do express a lot of anger towards her, but isn't she supposed to listen instead of fighting with me? And isn't this my dime, anyway? If I want to, why can't I sit there in silence the whole time? I don't understand this.
It doesn't seem productive. Has anyone had their T yell at them like this?
Posted by annierose on January 26, 2008, at 7:13:39
In reply to phew, posted by raisinb on January 25, 2008, at 19:03:31
Because it's your therapist job to help you. And sitting in silence or fighting for 2 years isn't very productive.
We all have occasional tough love type sessions with our t's. Usually I come out of it on the other side, learn something about myself and see how that thought or behavior isn't helping me in my real life. It's not an easy process to go through. My brain and body are hard wire to defend itself. And it's my t's job to open that up.
Posted by muffled on January 26, 2008, at 10:07:06
In reply to phew, posted by raisinb on January 25, 2008, at 19:03:31
>It's complicated by the fact that I feel *good* setting limits with her. It makes me feel stronger, less vulnerable, and more like I am taking care of myself, rather than waiting for her to do it (and knowing that she'll fail sometimes).
There's usu got to be some kind of 'payoff' in trnsactions...
Sometimes the payoff is driving T away.
Sometimes it protecting oneself.
It sounds like your T is terribly frustrated.
One time my T said in a mutter...I wish I could just make you mad!
Is there any chance of doing a small amount of correspondance in email, so as to take the emotional 'charge' away from the room and get to the bottom of this?
HAS this T been helpful?
Is she the T for you?
Maybe she is or is not. I have no way of knowing.
My T has not yelled at me.
She is always nice.
Though she has admitted that at times she feels I am stubborn, and I frustrate her :-)
Best wishes w/this Raisin.
M
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