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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by DAisym on June 22, 2007, at 18:09:01
We start therapy because we feel awful or there are things that aren't working for us, or we want to change or whatever...
And when those things go away, or change or get better, does that mean we no longer need therapy? I know we can almost always find things to work on, but what if you are symptom free and seemingly doing well? But what if you also know that this is possible because of the stability therapy provides?
Ug. I'm struggling with this right now. How will I know when going to therapy has gone from needing to be there to just wanting to be there? My therapist tells me I can come as long as I want to. But that isn't the question. I don't want to take up space that someone else needs and I don't want to bore him to death. And shouldn't I want to do other things with my time?
Posted by TherapyGirl on June 22, 2007, at 18:38:16
In reply to But I'm OK now..., posted by DAisym on June 22, 2007, at 18:09:01
I struggle with this, too, especially lately. Part of it is that I'm relatively stable right now.
Of course, the other part is that my recent "issues" with my T and her office have made it more difficult to do real therapy. So I feel at least half the time as if we aren't working on things that I could be working on. I'm giving it time now to see if things will settle back down.
The bottom line is usually that I feel that there's the one more big issue I haven't dealt with and I feel some pressure (from myself, not her) to try to do it before she retires. Because I can't imagine doing it with anyone else.
God, it's hard, isn't it?
Posted by zenhussy on June 22, 2007, at 21:07:18
In reply to But I'm OK now..., posted by DAisym on June 22, 2007, at 18:09:01
>>>I don't want to take up space that someone else needs and I don't want to bore him to death.<<<
you're not taking up someone else's space...you're taking up *your* space and rightfully so!
you're NOT boring him to death...ask anytime and the answer will be the same. will repeat anytime you ask. :)
>>>And shouldn't I want to do other things with my time?<<<you will. you do a lot with your time already busy lady. you will certainly know when that time has come to occupy your time with other things.
you're healing. you're working hard at healing. it isn't as if you're frittering your time with some hobby [not that there is anything wrong w/ frittering away time on hobbies].
please give yourself more credit for what you've done, what you're doing and the future you're creating this particular healing work.
Posted by Honore on June 22, 2007, at 21:31:14
In reply to But I'm OK now..., posted by DAisym on June 22, 2007, at 18:09:01
I sometimes have that thought-- that I shouldn't go, or go as often, since I've made progress, and things aren't as bad as they were.
But then I realize that progress doesn't mean that I'm through making progress, and feeling better doesn't mean that I've worked on the issues that I've at least begun to address-- It mostly means I've gotten past the worst of things, but there is a lot of work beyond that--work to find ways of growing further, not just barely staying afloat.
I think you question really answers itself-- shouldn't you want to come less? The answer has to be no-- you should want to come as much as you want to come-- . You can trust yourself, I think-- you'd know if it weren't right for you.
I have this idea that you feel that unless you have some terrible, overwhelming or desperate need, you don't deserve anything special and should get along without-- that someone else must need them more and you shouldn't be so greedy- & that only if you're terribly needy can you even ask for, or dare to take something. But that's part of what you do need to work toward-- knowing that you have the right to go beyond that, to fight for so much more than the barest survival.
Honore
Posted by annierose on June 22, 2007, at 22:32:22
In reply to But I'm OK now..., posted by DAisym on June 22, 2007, at 18:09:01
I think it's an okay question to explore now and then with your therapist, but I agree that if you read your post further up, your answer lies in there.
I think you still have unresolved issues with your family. And it causes you a great deal of pain.
My t tells me that we will both know when our work is nearing the end, and then we will work a long time on that as well. I'm in no hurry. If my quality of life is better knowing I have her in my corner, why go without the support.
Having said that ... I often fantasize about the money I could be spending on other things ... However, my mental health is a priority.
Posted by Dinah on June 23, 2007, at 9:05:17
In reply to But I'm OK now..., posted by DAisym on June 22, 2007, at 18:09:01
I struggle with this issue a lot. When things are going well, I get frankly bored in therapy.
But to me maintaining the relationship is part of what keeps me doing as well as possible, and also provides the framework to help me when I'm not feeling as well.
That being said, when I'm consistently doing well (say for a month or more) I consider cutting back on the number of sessions. I never manage to do that either, but I'm a creature of habit and cling to my comforts.
Posted by fiji on June 23, 2007, at 10:36:31
In reply to But I'm OK now..., posted by DAisym on June 22, 2007, at 18:09:01
That's wonderful you're OK right now; you just made it through a minefield. Your mind needs to rest for a bit, rejuvenate and integrate what happened to you recently. I'm like a broken record--it's all part of the process.
If it makes you feel better (or worse), in my opinion you've made huge progress but you still have a ways to go. I say that very kindly, and you know that, but I can see it, and I think you can too. It's OK to have a lull--and don't worry it won't last long!
I often feel that I've come as far as I can, so yes I did cut back on therapy, in the road toward termination. But there is a major mother issue left for me--or is it an anger one? the ability to be angry at my parents?--so I did cut back to bi-weekly, but it never works; I usually end up going weekly because I'm spending all my time explaining my life and not dealing with what I need to. I know that's my form of denial, but I recognize it.
So don't worry about overstaying your visit. You won't.
take care,
antigua
Posted by Poet on June 24, 2007, at 11:27:47
In reply to But I'm OK now..., posted by DAisym on June 22, 2007, at 18:09:01
Hi Daisy,
I think about this, too. I haven't had a meltdown or a crisis in months. Do I really need to see my T every week? Problem is everytime I think maybe once a month or every other week I think about all the stuff that I still don't want to talk about and should talk about. I guess that's what keeps me going every week.
Poet
Posted by peddidle on June 25, 2007, at 14:18:03
In reply to Re: But I'm OK now..., posted by Honore on June 22, 2007, at 21:31:14
Posted by DAisym on June 25, 2007, at 20:37:49
In reply to Re: But I'm OK now..., posted by Honore on June 22, 2007, at 21:31:14
We talked about this today. He thinks I'm caught in the aftermath of the visit - the "thou shalt not tell and thou shalt not need" rules have been reinforced again.
Particularly the need stuff. I told him that I was protecting myself - insisting to myself that needing him is wrong and dangerous. I am wrenching myself back, before he shoves me back. He asked me if it was a healthy pulling back - do I really feel strong within myself? I said I wanted it to be but I really didn't know. Actually it felt like a control thing - I can't control him so I'm trying to control my own need.
We went round and round about the idea that one should become less needy "eventually" in therapy and that 4-years was long enough if it was going to happen "eventually." And if not less needy, at least the need should become well defined and back ground noise. This just hasn't happened for me. I don't really know what I need him for, I'm just terrified of not having that need met. I'm equally terrified that the need will morph into something hurtful -- can I drive him away with my needs?
As I was leaving, I felt small and young. "perhaps this is what happened," I said. "Perhaps, my need for my dad was so huge that he kept trying and trying to meet it, and then it drove him into anger and he tried to beat it out of me and then it all became too much and he ran away from me." He shook his head and said he didn't think so. But he could understand why needing him was so scary.
He insists I'm fighting against the wrong thing. He pointed out that I struggle to not need him, to deny the need as wrong or bad, instead of accepting that there is this need. He thinks my struggle should be how to make peace with needing him and how to live with the terror that comes from that need being met. I have no idea how to do that.
I feel like an insatiable monster. I don't want to use him up. I don't want to get hurt either.
Posted by sunnydays on June 25, 2007, at 21:05:31
In reply to Re: But I'm OK now..., posted by DAisym on June 25, 2007, at 20:37:49
Daisy, I don't know what to say. My T and I have had so many similar conversations. Today he asked me, "Do you trust me?" I said, "Yes," and he asked why I trust him, what about him is trustworthy. I said because he's always there and because he's always the same. He was saying that his being trustworthy is really all about me - my being able to tell that he is trustworthy and then deciding to trust.
I trust him, but it's still scary. And I get that scary feeling so much. I've been hiding behind a pillow a lot lately, and I've never done that before. And I was so scared of him going on vacation, although tonight I'm sort of ok with it. I have an imaginary place I've put him in. And he gave me lots to work on.
Sorry, this got to be all about me. But I understand how hard it is. Keep working. My T keeps stopping me whenever something is hard to say and we talk about why it was hard to say it, and that has been helping so much.
((((Daisy))))
sunnydays
Posted by Fallsfall on June 26, 2007, at 7:33:14
In reply to Re: But I'm OK now..., posted by DAisym on June 25, 2007, at 20:37:49
>He thinks my struggle should be how to make peace with needing him and how to live with the terror that comes from that need being met.
He is a wise man.
(((Daisy)))
Posted by Honore on June 26, 2007, at 9:43:25
In reply to Re: But I'm OK now... » DAisym, posted by Fallsfall on June 26, 2007, at 7:33:14
Your T is right about the struggle-- that it's to accept and feel trusting of your needs, and his ability to meet them. Trying to force yourself, somehow, to be less needy never works-- it's like fighting against the tides.
Fighting to reduce one's needs is a losing battle, and a self-hurtful one It's not so much needs that are frightening, per se-- it's the fear of what happens when those around us don't meet them, and even make them seem wrong-- overwhelming, irrelevant, stupid.
People can be destructive when they can't meet our needs-- either out of their own guilt, or annoyance, or lack of ability to give. Don't listen to the voice that says your needs are massive, because it's not really your voice-- it's the voice of others who don't want to or can't respond-- it's a way of saying, my non=response is good; your needs are what's wrong.
Accepting needs is necessary before you can find ways to get them met-- not conscious acceptance, but unconscious. I'm sure you've done a lot along that line, without even knowing it.I always pick the wrong people-- and I'm trying to learn that it's better to get some real needs met by someone who isn't my ideal, or isn't so "wonderful" than to hang around the "wonderful" people who ignore me, and don't have time or energy to give me even the time of day.
Needs have always been terribly hard for me-- because I was always told that I was "very needy" and that I needed too much "attention"-- so I came to hate myself for being that kind of person.-- I still haven't come to that point of acceptance and hope about getting a lot of them met. But at least I've accepted my need for my T, and his being there-- I don't think I'm destroying him with my needs, because doing what he's doing meets his needs too-- he really wants to give me what he gives me, which is something that matters and is good for me. Which is why it works, despite sometimes having conflicts and disappointments.
This might be a momentary retreat, the wanting to get rid of your needs, but you'll come back to the good fight your T mentioned, I know.
Honore
Posted by DAisym on June 26, 2007, at 18:29:59
In reply to Re: But I'm OK now... » DAisym, posted by sunnydays on June 25, 2007, at 21:05:31
>>>>>Today he asked me, "Do you trust me?" I said, "Yes," and he asked why I trust him, what about him is trustworthy. I said because he's always there and because he's always the same. He was saying that his being trustworthy is really all about me - my being able to tell that he is trustworthy and then deciding to trust.
<<<<I think the trust part ebbs and flows. For me it is that I can't control him - or the fates -- so I have a hard time just giving myself over to it. I guess we all do.
>>>>>I trust him, but it's still scary. And I get that scary feeling so much. I've been hiding behind a pillow a lot lately, and I've never done that before. And I was so scared of him going on vacation, although tonight I'm sort of ok with it. I have an imaginary place I've put him in. And he gave me lots to work on.<<<<<<<< (grin) I've hidden behind the pillow(s) for a long time now. Last week I told him I was just going to make a fort with them all. I agree, it *is* really scary when we feel ourselves trusting a little, and then a little more. It isn't that we don't WANT to trust, it is just really scary. I'm glad that you are feeling OK about the break - he will come back. You can trust that.
>>>>Sorry, this got to be all about me. But I understand how hard it is. Keep working. My T keeps stopping me whenever something is hard to say and we talk about why it was hard to say it, and that has been helping so much.
<<<<<<It's OK - I'm glad you are sharing your experience with me. I really, really, really want to read about other people's experience of learning to trust and to need. What helped? What didn't? I think stopping when it gets really hard is important, because it isn't just the feelings that stop us, usually it is our fear of their judgement, even if we would protest that we know it will be OK.
Posted by DAisym on June 26, 2007, at 18:31:36
In reply to Re: But I'm OK now... » DAisym, posted by Fallsfall on June 26, 2007, at 7:33:14
Thank you for the push - it has helped me get into more of this really important subject.
And I agree - he is wise. He thinks you are pretty swift yourself. :)
Hugs from me.
Posted by muffled on June 26, 2007, at 18:57:31
In reply to Re: But I'm OK now... » Fallsfall, posted by DAisym on June 26, 2007, at 18:31:36
>other people's experience of learning to trust and to need. What helped? What didn't? I think stopping when it gets really hard is important, because it isn't just the feelings that stop us, usually it is our fear of their judgement, even if we would protest that we know it will be OK.
*fear of judgement. fear of rejection. Fear of seeing 'that' look on their faces.
My T. She knows stuff bout me. If she rejects me, then what does that mean? Does it mean that all the stuff she said is not true, is actually true? That I am leperous. Evil. Bad. Gross, etc. That in fact I should die? That all her acceptance was a lie? I dunno.
Scarey stuff.
My T says she does not change.
I faxed her the other day, I said to her that, you are lying, you DO change, you are human,so you must change. If I said something or did something you *could* change...
I think I must drive my T crazy. She reassures me alot. Man she must be tired of me.
I guess my fear is that she WILL change.
I dunno what I saying but my stomach is churning.
This interesting if freaky.
Muffled
Posted by DAisym on June 26, 2007, at 19:06:04
In reply to Re: But I'm OK now... DaisyM, posted by Honore on June 26, 2007, at 9:43:25
>>>>Your T is right about the struggle-- that it's to accept and feel trusting of your needs, and his ability to meet them. Trying to force yourself, somehow, to be less needy never works-- it's like fighting against the tides.
<<<I'm not sure how one learns to accept more than their own basic needs if they didn't learn this as a child. It is really hard to force yourself to not be needy, particularly in therapy, but sometimes I think this is the goal of therapy, to reduce the need for someone else.
>>>>>Fighting to reduce one's needs is a losing battle, and a self-hurtful one It's not so much needs that are frightening, per se-- it's the fear of what happens when those around us don't meet them, and even make them seem wrong-- overwhelming, irrelevant, stupid.
People can be destructive when they can't meet our needs-- either out of their own guilt, or annoyance, or lack of ability to give. Don't listen to the voice that says your needs are massive, because it's not really your voice-- it's the voice of others who don't want to or can't respond-- it's a way of saying, my non=response is good; your needs are what's wrong.
<<<<<I think there is a line where what we think we need is unhealthy or it is too much to ask of another. But I have no good markers that identify when I've crossed the line, and I'm so afraid of it, I stop 100 yards from it. I actually think my therapist would be happy to see me push it, at least a little. He told me today sort of what you said above - all my life I've "heard" from my mother "don't need me" because she simply couldn't meet my needs. And I was used a lot to meet everyone else's needs. I can see that. But my response today was, "but what if she was right - I am smart enough to meet my own needs, therefore I should." He shook his head and said every child needs to be allowed to need someone. And that someone is usually their mom. He was pretty strong about this and we talked about how I was as a mom. He pointed out that I'm comfortable being needed, so I do understand that it is OK, I just am not comfortable needing - it feels too dangerous.
>>>>Accepting needs is necessary before you can find ways to get them met-- not conscious acceptance, but unconscious. I'm sure you've done a lot along that line, without even knowing it.<<<<<I talked to AllDone about this last night -- I know me and how I think, and I feel I must understand what something is before I can accept it - I tend to think a need will be judged as bad unless I understand it enough to justify it. My therapist agrees with you - and he thinks part of me accepts that I have a need for him because I guard my therapy time and value it so highly. He always seems to see progress where I don't.
>>>>>I always pick the wrong people-- and I'm trying to learn that it's better to get some real needs met by someone who isn't my ideal, or isn't so "wonderful" than to hang around the "wonderful" people who ignore me, and don't have time or energy to give me even the time of day.
<<<<<Me too. :( In fact, I've arrived at the conclusion that my needs drive people to treat me crappy - so I bring it on myself. I'm trying to learn this doesn't always have to be true.
>>>>>Needs have always been terribly hard for me-- because I was always told that I was "very needy" and that I needed too much "attention"-- so I came to hate myself for being that kind of person.-- I still haven't come to that point of acceptance and hope about getting a lot of them met. But at least I've accepted my need for my T, and his being there-- I don't think I'm destroying him with my needs, because doing what he's doing meets his needs too-- he really wants to give me what he gives me, which is something that matters and is good for me. Which is why it works, despite sometimes having conflicts and disappointments.
<<<<<<I think I was horribly shy as a child to avoid being accused of wanting attention, and I really didn't want it. But I do want it from my therapist and I continue to struggle with the shame of wanting his attention. He thinks it is a good thing to want to be special to him, I think I'm being unreasonable. But you know what? I've never thought of our work together as meeting any of his needs - isn't that interesting? I sort of think of it as "he has to" but the truth is he doesn't have to. Hmmm...something to think about. I know he doesn't "need" me, but it would be an improvement to think that maybe he likes working with me? I don't know...Maybe that is where learning not to hate yourself comes in.
>>>>This might be a momentary retreat, the wanting to get rid of your needs, but you'll come back to the good fight your T mentioned, I know.
<<<<We had a good session today trying to sort it out some. I'll post about it. Thanks for the reply and for sharing. It helps.
Posted by DAisym on June 26, 2007, at 19:13:45
In reply to trust **Trigger** » DAisym, posted by muffled on June 26, 2007, at 18:57:31
We know and accept that kids test the adults in their lives over and over again to see what the limits are. They also test our acceptance of them, perhaps unconsciously, but for sure when they are teens. They act out, do things they know make us mad and change themselves outwardly over and over. I can't tell you how many times I've said to my kids, "you KNEW that this would make me mad -- why did you???"
I think therapy operates in a very similiar way, at least at some level. We test and push and present different aspects of ourselves to our therapists to see if they will accept us, and if they can keep us safe by maintaining the boundaries. Trust is built in the little moments and over time. It can be shaken easily - it is definately much harder to build up than take down.
Our adult parts know that we are working with good people. Our kid parts want to test that to be sure.
This is the end of the thread.
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