![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Tamar on May 26, 2006, at 16:08:15
OK, I’m going with Orchid’s suggestion and posting something about my stuff instead of trying to hide from it… Sorry for the long whine...
I’m really struggling in therapy. The transferential stuff is completely different this time and I’m having trouble making sense of it. I don’t want to be his lover or his partner, though I still think he’s attractive and sexy. However, it’s the kind of bearable attraction I feel for people in real life rather than the compelling, urgent, gotta-lick-him-now desire I used to feel. So it’s not the old erotic transference. I think perhaps my inner teenager wants him to be a father figure, but the grown-up me doesn’t share those wishes.
The biggest problem for me is that I feel he is very distant. I want to feel closer to him. I don’t want to overstep the real life boundaries: I don’t want him to tell me all about his family or anything like that, and I don’t want to sit on his knee… well, not really. Only in my imagination. I wouldn’t want it in real life. So I’m trying to figure out what I *do* want. And all I can come up with is that I want to feel closer to him. And I feel devastated when I feel he’s distancing himself from me.
Sometimes I feel he’s right there with me: a few weeks ago I was talking to him about cutting myself and he seemed very emotionally engaged with the discussion. And then last week I thanked him for another conversation we’d had and he was all matter-of-fact… he just let it bounce off him. I guess I hoped he’d take it further… maybe ask why it was helpful or whatever… Sometimes I think he asks all the wrong questions, even though the questions he asks are perfectly reasonable.
I’ve been feeling very angry with him, and I haven’t told him because whenever I ask myself what I’m angry about it seems completely unfair. I’m angry because when we talked about our relationship he didn’t understand what I wanted, but then I guess I wasn’t able to explain it, and I’m not sure I even know.
I’m angry because we talked about the possibility that I could leave some of my photos with him and then he never mentioned it again, but of course I know that I’m the one who is supposed to mention it again.
I’m angry because when we did therapy yesterday he forgot it was the anniversary of the rape, even though we discussed meeting on the anniversary both last week and the week before. But, on the other hand, when I mentioned it we had a really good discussion about it.
I’m angry because I very much want to talk about issues of faith and he seems to want to back away, but on the other hand we have talked about it a bit... He says we can talk about anything, but I don’t believe him because when I try to talk about faith he seems to close it down fairly quickly.
I’m angry because when I told him that I want to feel close to him his response was to remind me that he can only see me for an hour a week. Actually I’m furious about that. I wanted him to ask me about it, or say it was OK or something. We talked about the therapeutic relationship constantly for about five weeks and I’m perfectly willing to work on my difficulties with it, but I really wanted him to tell me that it was OK or normal or understandable or acceptable or something like that. I know we can only meet for an hour a week. I just want that hour to feel close.
And I’m angry because he insisted that I need to know he has boundaries, whereas I was trying to say that I know perfectly well that he has boundaries; I have my own boundaries. I like his boundaries and I need them. I don’t want to push through them, but at the same time I don’t want to feel they operate like some kind of exercise of power. I don’t want him to make decisions about what’s best for me without discussing those decisions with me. He didn’t get it. Maybe I’m just acutely inarticulate. So no matter what I said, he kept telling me that he thinks I need to know he has boundaries. I want to shout: “I *know* you have boundaries. Please stop moving them around and I’ll happily learn where you keep them. And don’t assume you know what’s best for me without talking to me about it.”
I’m angry because I don’t have the ‘good’ side of the transference. Last time we did therapy together he was both Mr Dangerous and Mr Safe at the same time (in the transference). Mr Dangerous challenged me to rethink my situation and Mr Safe comforted me when I found it hard going. Neither version of him was the real person… they were figments of my imagination. And this time round I’ve got an imaginary Mr Distant and I don’t have Mr Close to compensate. It’s all pain and no comfort.
Why won’t he understand me? Maybe I’m imagining it all…
My gut feeling is that it’s a God transference: I want him to be omniscient and omnipresent and perfectly good. And of course he isn’t… But how can I talk about it with him if he backs away from faith issues?
Argh!
If anyone has actually read all this I’d be very grateful for your thoughts…
Tamar
Posted by fallsfall on May 26, 2006, at 16:20:03
In reply to I think I'm crazy (possible triggers), posted by Tamar on May 26, 2006, at 16:08:15
Yes, I read it. Your wants and needs are very reasonable. Please talk to him about all of this (I know, only 1 hour a week...). This is the important stuff.
Posted by annierose on May 26, 2006, at 16:37:51
In reply to I think I'm crazy (possible triggers), posted by Tamar on May 26, 2006, at 16:08:15
WOW! That was my first reaction. It was very powerful and pure. I hope you can share this post with him. And I really wish he was psychodynamic so you could work on all these issues more often than once a week. You would benefit from a more intimate theraputic working relationship.
I do think its natural for the relationship to wax and wane. Sometimes they feel close, sometimes distance, and often it's how we perceive them, not how they actually feel about us.
You have a solid grasp of what you want and need to talk about. A therapist dream. A client who has access to their emotions and the ability to put those feelings into words. When you feel he is avoiding a subject do you tell him? I once told my T, "I want to talk about x and it feels like you are avoiding that topic." She quickly said, "Let's talk about x." Of course, at that moment my 2 year old wanted to have a tantrum over her seemingly lack of interest in the topic of x, but the adult in me forged ahead with the conversation.
Keep talking. You will get there.
It's nice to have you around babble.
Annierose
Posted by Deneb on May 26, 2006, at 16:42:56
In reply to I think I'm crazy (possible triggers), posted by Tamar on May 26, 2006, at 16:08:15
> I’m angry because when I told him that I want to feel close to him his response was to remind me that he can only see me for an hour a week. Actually I’m furious about that. I wanted him to ask me about it, or say it was OK or something. We talked about the therapeutic relationship constantly for about five weeks and I’m perfectly willing to work on my difficulties with it, but I really wanted him to tell me that it was OK or normal or understandable or acceptable or something like that.
Strange, this reminds me of something that just happened. I asked Dr. Bob if he minds that I love him and he said, "It's fine." I'm glad he thinks it's fine. What if he had said, "It makes me extremely uncomfortable?" I think I would have been crushed. I understand your need to have your T tell you that it's acceptable to want to be close to him.
Deneb*
Posted by Dinah on May 26, 2006, at 16:44:34
In reply to I think I'm crazy (possible triggers), posted by Tamar on May 26, 2006, at 16:08:15
I too wish he had more of an orientation that explored the therapeutic relationship. It sounds as if he's giving it some effort, but I can understand why it feels like it's falling short.
It took a lot of time and effort to break through all that with my therapist, but I think eventually we did, and things settled down (at least until Katrina). Keep trying, and Annierose is right about telling him straight out what you're perceiving from him and how it's affecting your ability to be open.
Posted by orchid on May 26, 2006, at 17:13:59
In reply to I think I'm crazy (possible triggers), posted by Tamar on May 26, 2006, at 16:08:15
-------Orchid
I am glad you posted. I think writing itself will give you more clarity. Hugs to you.Your feelings very well could have changed. I feel every T relationship will bring out different stuff from us at different points - some adultlike, some childish, some monster like and some cutie pie like. I think what you are going through is the more teenager parts of it, and it is quite likely it is in response to you innermost needs which were not met as a teenager. And it is normal to feel different ways about our Ts at different times. It just means that different parts need to be worked out differently and attended to differently. The issue however is finding a T who is able to recognize it and willing to work through it and who is able to listen to what you are telling him *at that point of time*.
And as I said to HappyFlower, I think your T also has his limitations and lacks little bit of emotional depth and understanding needed to help you fully. Not that he isn't a good T, but I think he lacks little bit of expertise needed to help you. A person with more emotional understanding and depth would have been able to guide you more I feel.
You are not wrong in expecting him to be perfect. It is very valid expectation on your part, especially when trying to work out through very emotional aspects. Rather it is wrong on his part, (or maybe incapability), to keep his stuff and emotions outside of the hour, and present a constant and reliable facade to you.
By becoming distant sometime and becoming close sometime, he is confusing you (not intentionally of course). I agree with others that a person with more expertise on working with transference and psychodynamic types would have been better and not CBT. He probably doesn't have the necessary training.
One thing you cann do to work around it is, maybe bring this post to him. And what other people have commented on it. And see what he says about it. IF he recognizes his own limitations, maybe he will able to find a way to get that strength within himself to help you out.
Remember though, that you are one of the dream patients any therapist could have. So if there is something going not well, then it is absolutely not your fault. What more can a therapist have than a patient with as much insight as you? And if he is not able to work with that to the full extent, then that is HIS limitation. I hope you don't bang yourself about your inadequacy.
And regarding talking about faith, I think your T might be avoiding it, due to fear of suing or legal action etc. I don't know how much Ts are allowed to talk about faith issues. Maybe asking him about it would break the ice.
If he doesn't listen to your saying that you know he has boundaries and are not trying to push it, maybe just be blunt with him. Tell him something like, "look, I really do know you have those boundaries, and I damn well know it. Just don't keep repeating it" - or something like it.
Also at the end, I think a more psychodynamic or more emotional T would help. It is hard to make an cow do a horse's job or vice versa :-).
Posted by muffled on May 26, 2006, at 21:03:43
In reply to I think I'm crazy (possible triggers), posted by Tamar on May 26, 2006, at 16:08:15
Posted by happyflower on May 26, 2006, at 22:03:02
In reply to I think I'm crazy (possible triggers), posted by Tamar on May 26, 2006, at 16:08:15
wow, first of all I had to look to see who wrote this because it sounds like what I am feeling and thinking a lot lately.
I have the Dr. Sexy T , the Dr. Rational T , but I need a Dr.Comfort T . I need to go into some areas that are tough and I don't know if I can trust him to comfort me if I get out of hand.I hate the boundries, he is slamming them all around me. Maybe he is wisening up I don't know. But I hate it. All I want to know is that if I fall apart he will be there to give me a warm blanket and a cup of hot tea and tell me I am okay and I will be okay. But now since he is removing himself from me, I don't know if I can trust him to go where I need to go because it is so darn scary. But I have nobody else, I feel deparate, because the anger inside is eating away at me. I just need someone to help me because I am slipping away. I want to matter, I want to be loved. Maybe I don't need that from my T , but I need him to tell me I am loveable and I do matter. But he won't even tell me he cares about me. He is all Dr. Boundries now. I feel like I am trapped in a therapy cage.
Maybe this isn't how you feel, and I am sorry I am rambling on and on, but I do feel your pain, Tamar. You are not alone. (((((Tamar)))
Posted by happyflower on May 26, 2006, at 22:17:24
In reply to Re: I think I'm crazy (possible triggers) » Tamar, posted by orchid on May 26, 2006, at 17:13:59
Orchid,
Even though I don't like the new boundries my T is giving me, I think he is doing what is best for me. My T is not emotionless, he has been there for me and has given me a lot of validation. But now that he knows how much he means to me, he is doing what is best for me, maybe not what either of us truely wants if there were no ethics. But even though it hurts, he is in a way helping me and trying to make me more independent of him.
Besides I thought in pyscodynamic therapy, the therpist is a blank slate, revealing nothing. So to me that would seem so cold, I think if I started out in that kind of therapy, I would have have quit real fast.
My T keeps me grounded , keeps me thinking in a more positive way, encourages me to suceed, but he doesn't want to be that rock I need, he wants me to stand on my own. He doesn't want therapy to be about him. I don't know what I am trying to say, but I think I do have a good T and I think he has helped me so much. I know he and I will work through this "problem", because we have before, and I have become more strong because of it.
Posted by Daisym on May 27, 2006, at 2:08:48
In reply to I think I'm crazy (possible triggers), posted by Tamar on May 26, 2006, at 16:08:15
Wow, Tamar, that was a powerful post. My response could be a total projection and more my "stuff" than yours...but...
It sounds to me like you are circling the core issue of wanting your therapist to "make it all better" -- You want to sink into your sessions as a soft place to land, to find some peace from the world you have to navigate most of the time. And he wants to "work."
And your anger is really justified. I get angry too when I don't have as much access to my therapist as I want. I hate that I have to think about all the bad things that happened to me when I'm with him. I really hate that he wants me to feel my anger and express my anger when all I want is for him to protect me from my anger.
I want him to be magic. I want him to make it so we can go back in time and undo everything.
I want him to be a fortune teller so we can go forward in time and see that everything is OK.
Wow, am I mad that he can't. Furious with him. I also want him to fight back and tell me why he can't do all these things, instead of just saying "you have every right to be mad." I think I want him to be God too. And I'm pissed that he doesn't want to be, or even pretend that he could be.
A while back I went and talked to my priest, with my therapist's encouragement. It was there I could really sort out how abandoned I felt by God. I was given permission to be angry at God (a stunning development for me.) It was a good thing for me to do, and it wasn't instead of therapy, it was in addition too. Maybe this could be an option?
I also wanted to say that often when I feel like my therapist is far away, or is pushing me away, usually it is me, pushing away from really painful material. Not always...there have been times that I've called him on stuff and he has admitted to avoiding something. It is really painful when this happens...and I fold up inside myself and slink away.
You are very brave and I know you are working on all of this. Allow all parts of yourself to need what they need from your therapist. It is a little like negotiating waring parties but eventually it sorts itself out.
Hugs from me,
Daisy
Posted by Tamar on May 27, 2006, at 5:14:09
In reply to Re: I think I'm crazy (possible triggers), posted by fallsfall on May 26, 2006, at 16:20:03
> Yes, I read it. Your wants and needs are very reasonable. Please talk to him about all of this (I know, only 1 hour a week...). This is the important stuff.
Thanks Falls. I suppose it's hard to believe that what I want and need is reasonable becuse it seems so irrational. Yeah you're right. I need to talk to him about the relationship again. Oh boy...
Posted by Tamar on May 27, 2006, at 5:20:25
In reply to Re: I think I'm crazy (possible triggers) » Tamar, posted by annierose on May 26, 2006, at 16:37:51
> WOW! That was my first reaction. It was very powerful and pure. I hope you can share this post with him. And I really wish he was psychodynamic so you could work on all these issues more often than once a week. You would benefit from a more intimate theraputic working relationship.
The funny thing is, he has been much more psychodynamic with me this time around. And I’d like more intimacy but I feel he’s trying to run away from me. I may be projecting of course…
> I do think its natural for the relationship to wax and wane. Sometimes they feel close, sometimes distance, and often it's how we perceive them, not how they actually feel about us.
Yes, that makes sense. When I think about it logically, I know he cares about me. I’ve seen it in his eyes. It’s apparent in the way he talks to me. He has put himself on the line (emotionally) for me and been prepared to support me through some really difficult stuff. And maybe I want that every session, but maybe it’s not always appropriate.
> You have a solid grasp of what you want and need to talk about. A therapist dream. A client who has access to their emotions and the ability to put those feelings into words. When you feel he is avoiding a subject do you tell him? I once told my T, "I want to talk about x and it feels like you are avoiding that topic." She quickly said, "Let's talk about x." Of course, at that moment my 2 year old wanted to have a tantrum over her seemingly lack of interest in the topic of x, but the adult in me forged ahead with the conversation.
Oh yes! Talking about x is something I’d like to run away from too! But sometimes I think they really are avoiding things, and maybe I’m odd but I’d like my therapist to be aware of what he’s avoiding and be honest about it. I don’t need him to tell me why he might avoid something, but if he would only acknowledge that some issues are difficult for him then perhaps we could negotiate the discussion together. But if he insists that we can talk about anything and then seems to avoid stuff it feels as if he’s being dishonest and disingenuous, and I don’t think that helps me.
> Keep talking. You will get there.
>
> It's nice to have you around babble.It’s nice to be here. Thanks very much for your support.
Tamar
Posted by Tamar on May 27, 2006, at 5:21:49
In reply to Re: I think I'm crazy (possible triggers), posted by Tamar on May 27, 2006, at 5:14:09
Posted by Tamar on May 27, 2006, at 5:34:03
In reply to Re: I think I'm crazy (possible triggers) » Tamar, posted by Deneb on May 26, 2006, at 16:42:56
> > I’m angry because when I told him that I want to feel close to him his response was to remind me that he can only see me for an hour a week. Actually I’m furious about that. I wanted him to ask me about it, or say it was OK or something. We talked about the therapeutic relationship constantly for about five weeks and I’m perfectly willing to work on my difficulties with it, but I really wanted him to tell me that it was OK or normal or understandable or acceptable or something like that.
>
> Strange, this reminds me of something that just happened. I asked Dr. Bob if he minds that I love him and he said, "It's fine." I'm glad he thinks it's fine. What if he had said, "It makes me extremely uncomfortable?" I think I would have been crushed. I understand your need to have your T tell you that it's acceptable to want to be close to him.
>
> Deneb*Hi Deneb,
I’m glad he said it’s fine! He’s a great guy, isn’t he?
Thanks for understanding.
Tamar
Posted by Tamar on May 27, 2006, at 5:39:15
In reply to Re: I think I'm crazy (possible triggers) » Tamar, posted by Dinah on May 26, 2006, at 16:44:34
> I too wish he had more of an orientation that explored the therapeutic relationship. It sounds as if he's giving it some effort, but I can understand why it feels like it's falling short.
I think he just doesn’t like it. He usually uses CBT with his clients and I’m grateful that he’s working more psychodynamically with me at the moment, but at the same time I can’t help feeling he’s uncomfortable with it. But I have no real evidence for that because he has been willing to discuss the relationship when I’ve brought it up. It’s just that my instinct seems to be telling me that he doesn’t want to take it ‘too far’.
> It took a lot of time and effort to break through all that with my therapist, but I think eventually we did, and things settled down (at least until Katrina). Keep trying, and Annierose is right about telling him straight out what you're perceiving from him and how it's affecting your ability to be open.
Yes, it’s true: I do need to tell him straight. But my heart sinks at the idea because I feel sure he will say all sorts of things that sound all right but that he won’t be able to persuade me that it really is all right. Grrr!
Thanks, Dinah.
Posted by Tamar on May 27, 2006, at 6:02:40
In reply to Re: I think I'm crazy (possible triggers) » Tamar, posted by orchid on May 26, 2006, at 17:13:59
Hi Orchid,
> Your feelings very well could have changed. I feel every T relationship will bring out different stuff from us at different points - some adultlike, some childish, some monster like and some cutie pie like.
That struck a chord with me. I think I’d like to be a bit cutie pie sometimes but I don’t believe I can pull it off!
> I think what you are going through is the more teenager parts of it, and it is quite likely it is in response to you innermost needs which were not met as a teenager. And it is normal to feel different ways about our Ts at different times. It just means that different parts need to be worked out differently and attended to differently. The issue however is finding a T who is able to recognize it and willing to work through it and who is able to listen to what you are telling him *at that point of time*.
Yes, that makes sense.
> And as I said to HappyFlower, I think your T also has his limitations and lacks little bit of emotional depth and understanding needed to help you fully. Not that he isn't a good T, but I think he lacks little bit of expertise needed to help you. A person with more emotional understanding and depth would have been able to guide you more I feel.
Well, I suppose he’s only human. I guess they all have their limitations. I believe he’s capable of the emotional understanding and depth that I’m looking for, but I suspect he finds it difficult with me. But maybe I’m projecting.
> You are not wrong in expecting him to be perfect. It is very valid expectation on your part, especially when trying to work out through very emotional aspects. Rather it is wrong on his part, (or maybe incapability), to keep his stuff and emotions outside of the hour, and present a constant and reliable facade to you.
Yeah, I tend to think it’s impossible for him to attempt to be constant and reliable, especially when he’s quite often late and he forgets things I think are important and so on. I think it would make more sense to acknowledge generally that a blank slate is an impossible ideal (except perhaps in psychoanalysis). He’s a human, not a robot, and he isn’t reading a script. He depends on his countertransference to make sense of some of my unconscious stuff. And that’s fine, but I think it means that some disclosure is necessary from him, at least about issues that affect the course of therapy. I don’t expect him to tell me his family history, but I would like him to be able to admit when things aren’t easy for him. Because, frankly, I’m pretty sure I can tell anyway, so he might as well admit it. If he keeps pretending things are fine when they aren’t it feels a bit like gaslighting.
> By becoming distant sometime and becoming close sometime, he is confusing you (not intentionally of course). I agree with others that a person with more expertise on working with transference and psychodynamic types would have been better and not CBT. He probably doesn't have the necessary training.
I think he’s worked psychodynamically before, but I don’t think he does much these days. And I often wonder whether he’s in his current field of work at least partly because he doesn’t like (or feel comfortable with) transferential work.
> One thing you cann do to work around it is, maybe bring this post to him. And what other people have commented on it. And see what he says about it. IF he recognizes his own limitations, maybe he will able to find a way to get that strength within himself to help you out.
Yeah. I hope he’s able to do that.
> Remember though, that you are one of the dream patients any therapist could have. So if there is something going not well, then it is absolutely not your fault. What more can a therapist have than a patient with as much insight as you? And if he is not able to work with that to the full extent, then that is HIS limitation. I hope you don't bang yourself about your inadequacy.
I guess I sometimes feel that I’m trying to bring him along with me. I want to be gentle with him when things aren’t going well between us, because I think we’ll probably work things out better if I play nice. But perhaps I’m falling into a kind of trap. Maybe I should be more direct, because I seem to be trying to take some responsibility for his emotions, and perhaps that’s not helpful in therapy.
> And regarding talking about faith, I think your T might be avoiding it, due to fear of suing or legal action etc. I don't know how much Ts are allowed to talk about faith issues. Maybe asking him about it would break the ice.
Tee hee! I asked him about it a few weeks ago and he built a very high wall in record time. He didn’t want to disclose his own outlook, and that’s fine of course. But I’ve said that my relationship with God is as important as other relationships in my life and that I’d like to be able to explore it in therapy. I don’t want a theological discussion, but I would like to talk about what the relationship means to me, just like I talk about family relationships and work relationships. I think he’s allowed to talk about it but I think it’s a problem for him. I think he’s afraid of saying something that might be theologically heretical, but I’m not afraid of that at all.
> If he doesn't listen to your saying that you know he has boundaries and are not trying to push it, maybe just be blunt with him. Tell him something like, "look, I really do know you have those boundaries, and I damn well know it. Just don't keep repeating it" - or something like it.
Yeah, that’s exactly what I want to say! Stop using your boundaries like weapons. Stop using them to enforce distance. Just let them be. Make them out of rubber so that I’ll bounce off them gently. I need them there but I’m sick of knocking myself unconscious on them.
> Also at the end, I think a more psychodynamic or more emotional T would help. It is hard to make an cow do a horse's job or vice versa :-).
I love the idea that it’s hard to make a cow do a horse’s job! I will remember that in future!
Thanks for your support and ideas.
Tamar
Posted by Tamar on May 27, 2006, at 6:03:10
In reply to ((((((((((((((((((((((((Tamar))))))))))))))))))))) (nm) » Tamar, posted by muffled on May 26, 2006, at 21:03:43
Posted by Tamar on May 27, 2006, at 6:22:43
In reply to Re: I think I'm crazy (possible triggers), posted by happyflower on May 26, 2006, at 22:03:02
Thanks, Happyflower. Yeah, Dr Comfort would be just perfect, eh?
> I hate the boundries, he is slamming them all around me. Maybe he is wisening up I don't know. But I hate it. All I want to know is that if I fall apart he will be there to give me a warm blanket and a cup of hot tea and tell me I am okay and I will be okay. But now since he is removing himself from me, I don't know if I can trust him to go where I need to go because it is so darn scary. But I have nobody else, I feel deparate, because the anger inside is eating away at me. I just need someone to help me because I am slipping away. I want to matter, I want to be loved. Maybe I don't need that from my T , but I need him to tell me I am loveable and I do matter. But he won't even tell me he cares about me. He is all Dr. Boundries now. I feel like I am trapped in a therapy cage.
It’s horrible when they tighten boundaries. I think it’s one of the most painful experiences in therapy. I suspect the best way to deal with it is to talk it out at length, and tell him how much it hurts, and allow him to explore with you what it means to have the boundaries more rigidly enforced. But that’s hard because it involves attempting to trust someone who has hurt you very deeply. And often the reason we’re in therapy in the first place is because we have deep hurts that come of being let down by the people we should have been able to trust.
And yeah, I think do you need to know you matter to your T. And you do need to be loved. It’s not just about *wishing* to be loved, I think. I think we actually *need* to be loved in order to be healthy. You know we love you, right? I don’t know about you but sometimes I want to be loved by *everyone*, and I want to love everyone. I want to live in a world where we all understand each other’s faults and foibles and can accept each other easily without big misunderstandings. But sadly it’s an imperfect world. And I guess it’s the imperfection in human relationships that leads to the rule that Ts can’t tell us they love us.
In some ways it makes sense. My husband tells me he loves me, but I feel so unlovable that I don’t believe him. And even if my T told me he loves me, I think it would be hard to believe, because he just can’t fix everything by loving me. And actually I’m sure my T does care about me, but his care hasn’t fixed me. Dammit!
> Maybe this isn't how you feel, and I am sorry I am rambling on and on, but I do feel your pain, Tamar. You are not alone. (((((Tamar)))
Thanks very much, HF. It’s comforting to know I’m not the only one.
Tamar
P.S. I know just what you mean about being afraid to talk about things because of your fear that you will fall apart and that he won’t comfort you. And you will need to be comforted. So if he can’t hold you and let you sob on his shoulder, what can he do to help you find comfort within yourself? I think it’s about the need for safety. Maybe you need to feel that it’s safe to fall apart and that he won’t let it destroy you. So if offering you comfort isn’t possible (and my T wouldn’t do it either) what can he do? I’ve tested my T with some of it and generally he responds by becoming very emotionally engaged, and that helps. But I’ve found that I need to tell him how hard it is for me, because he really can’t read my mind. I have a habit of slipping some really profound stuff into the conversation as if it were no big deal, and he doesn’t pick up on how big a deal it really is, and then I feel abandoned. So I have to trust him before I can receive his care. It’s so hard!
Posted by Tamar on May 27, 2006, at 6:45:21
In reply to Re: I think I'm crazy (possible triggers) » Tamar, posted by Daisym on May 27, 2006, at 2:08:48
Hi Daisy!
> It sounds to me like you are circling the core issue of wanting your therapist to "make it all better" -- You want to sink into your sessions as a soft place to land, to find some peace from the world you have to navigate most of the time. And he wants to "work."
That’s interesting. It hadn’t occurred to me. I think I do want to work, but perhaps I’m hoping he’ll reward my work by making it all better or something like that. I’ll have to think about it…
> I want him to be magic. I want him to make it so we can go back in time and undo everything.
I once told my therapist I wanted him to wave his magic wand, and we’d just been talking about sexual stuff. You should have seen the look on his face! Damn Freudian symbols…
> A while back I went and talked to my priest, with my therapist's encouragement. It was there I could really sort out how abandoned I felt by God. I was given permission to be angry at God (a stunning development for me.) It was a good thing for me to do, and it wasn't instead of therapy, it was in addition too. Maybe this could be an option?
I’ve thought about talking to clergy about the God stuff. But I’m afraid of receiving orthodox answers. I don’t want to be told that God loves me or that Jesus saves; I don’t find either idea helpful. At the moment I want to talk about faith in therapy because I want to talk about it as a relationship in my life rather than as a matter of theology. But maybe I’m running away. I like the idea of talking to a priest because of the meaning of priesthood in Catholicism. I’m Protestant and so a minister to me isn’t the same kind of thing that a priest is to a Catholic. And I think I want a priest. I want the sacrament of reconciliation. I want to be absolved. I’m supposed to believe in the priesthood of all believers (because I’m Protestant) but it’s not working for me right now. On the other hand, the first step in the sacrament of reconciliation is conversion, so perhaps I’m beyond the help of priests as well.
> I also wanted to say that often when I feel like my therapist is far away, or is pushing me away, usually it is me, pushing away from really painful material. Not always...there have been times that I've called him on stuff and he has admitted to avoiding something. It is really painful when this happens...and I fold up inside myself and slink away.
I like that your therapist has admitted to avoiding things. I don’t know if my therapist would admit it. Sometimes I think I need to help him to feel safe to admit it. I’m sure that must be projection. Maybe I am pushing away from painful material. Probably.
> You are very brave and I know you are working on all of this. Allow all parts of yourself to need what they need from your therapist. It is a little like negotiating waring parties but eventually it sorts itself out.
I so desperately want to allow myself to need what I need, even though I know he can’t necessarily give me what I feel I need. I only wish he would tell me outright that it’s OK to need him. Sigh.
Thanks for the hugs.
Tamar
Posted by milly on May 27, 2006, at 8:40:11
In reply to I think I'm crazy (possible triggers), posted by Tamar on May 26, 2006, at 16:08:15
Oh tamar what an eloquent post, you know what you want and need you just need to let him know, don't look after him, tell him. Your needs arn't unreasonable.
The faith thing is a 'biggie', my t wouldn't enter those waters with me either which is weird because they will talk about anything else which IRL are also on the list of taboo subjects. Eventually i think i got him to understand by putting it in terms of abandonement which he seemed to 'get'
Glad to see you posting again
milly
Posted by Daisym on May 27, 2006, at 11:58:57
In reply to Re: I think I'm crazy (possible triggers) » Daisym, posted by Tamar on May 27, 2006, at 6:45:21
Tamar:
This is a long, disorganized response to several things you said up and down this thread. I hope it makes sense in the end.
*******Yes, its true: I do need to tell him straight. But my heart sinks at the idea because I feel sure he will say all sorts of things that sound all right but that he won’t be able to persuade me that it really is all right. Grrr!*******
>>>>I think all he can do is keep reassuring you over and over again that it really is all right. After three years in therapy, I still cry when I have to leave half the time, I get freaked out about long weekends and vacations and there are days when I'm sure he is planning my transfer. But if nothing else, I've learned to ask. We talk about my need for reassurance a lot. I apologize but it took me so long to just admit that asking for this reassurance and enduring the embarrassment was so much better than longing for it in silence.
****Yeah, I tend to think it’s impossible for him to attempt to be constant and reliable, especially when he’s quite often late and he forgets things I think are important and so on. I think it would make more sense to acknowledge generally that a blank slate is an impossible ideal (except perhaps in psychoanalysis). He’s a human, not a robot, and he isn’t reading a script. He depends on his countertransference to make sense of some of my unconscious stuff. And that’s fine, but I think it means that some disclosure is necessary from him, at least about issues that affect the course of therapy. I don’t expect him to tell me his family history, but I would like him to be able to admit when things aren’t easy for him. Because, frankly, I’m pretty sure I can tell anyway, so he might as well admit it. If he keeps pretending things are fine when they aren’t it feels a bit like gaslighting.****
>>>My therapist noted a long time ago that I'm going to know faster than he does if he is getting uncomfortable with something or avoiding it unconsciously, at least most of the time. I think one of the legacies of trauma is that ability to sense a shift in mood. We just know when things feel different. And, I'm saying this as gently as I can, you aren't the only person whose "stuff" he has to keep track of. So if you want to go back to something, you really need to make it OK for yourself to do this. All that said, I would HATE it if my therapist was late a lot. I worry already that I'm at the wrong time and day. You have my sympathy around that.
****I guess I sometimes feel that I’m trying to bring him along with me. I want to be gentle with him when things aren’t going well between us, because I think we’ll probably work things out better if I play nice. But perhaps I’m falling into a kind of trap. Maybe I should be more direct, because I seem to be trying to take some responsibility for his emotions, and perhaps that’s not helpful in therapy.
>>>>My therapist would ask you, "Are you trying to take care of me?" He calls me on this all the time. By taking responsibility for his emotions, you have some semblance of control and maybe you think you will know how to titrate what you are saying to him. What are you afraid will happen if you don't play nice? For me it is being abandoned, or worse, having him lose it and yell at me. Showing the dark side is really hard, especially for those of us who are more or less proud of our intellect and think emotional women get a bad reputation.
*****Yeah, that’s exactly what I want to say! Stop using your boundaries like weapons. Stop using them to enforce distance. Just let them be. Make them out of rubber so that I’ll bounce off them gently. I need them there but I’m sick of knocking myself unconscious on them.
>>>>>So say that. Say it just like that. I can't tell you how many times I've said, "I know the boundaries are there for a reason. But it still hurts to bump into them." I also remind him often that just because I understand them doesn't mean I like them. And he tells me that I can hate them as much as I want or need to, as long as we both agree to respect them. And here is the other thing, he once told me that it is my job to push on the boundaries and his job to hold them. But holding them doesn't mean pointing them out. It is more about walking the talk instead of talking louder and louder. Once in a while he will still put stuff out in a concrete way, and I always respond, "I already KNOW that...it just hurts and it hurts more when it is in my face."
*****P.S. I know just what you mean about being afraid to talk about things because of your fear that you will fall apart and that he won’t comfort you. And you will need to be comforted. So if he can’t hold you and let you sob on his shoulder, what can he do to help you find comfort within yourself? I think it’s about the need for safety. Maybe you need to feel that it’s safe to fall apart and that he won’t let it destroy you. So if offering you comfort isn’t possible (and my T wouldn’t do it either) what can he do? I’ve tested my T with some of it and generally he responds by becoming very emotionally engaged, and that helps. But I’ve found that I need to tell him how hard it is for me, because he really can’t read my mind. I have a habit of slipping some really profound stuff into the conversation as if it were no big deal, and he doesn’t pick up on how big a deal it really is, and then I feel abandoned. So I have to trust him before I can receive his care. It’s so hard!
>>>>Being emotionally held feels very good. But there is physical need for comfort and safety that is core to all mammals. It is an animal yearning. So it is important to find a way to get this need met so it isn't so big in sessions. I had a horrible time around the "no hugs" policy a few months back. My body image came into play -- you and I have talked about that. But what was really hard was that it was a very young part of me (hmmm, I originally typed him) that needed to connect and she didn't have the words. And we were working on old stuff and guilt about physical needs, so it was all very complicated. Another thing I still don't do well is allow myself to backup immediately when I get hurt or miffed. It is an automatic response to shield the real emotions and keep everything light and "OK" until I can sort it out in private. I think I do this because I don't trust that I'm having the "correct" reaction to whatever was said, or not said. And I know I'm really, really good at saying things in a matter-of-fact way, so they blend in with everything else. But I want him to be magic and know what is important to me and what isn't.
****I’ve thought about talking to clergy about the God stuff. But I’m afraid of receiving orthodox answers. I don’t want to be told that God loves me or that Jesus saves; I don’t find either idea helpful. At the moment I want to talk about faith in therapy because I want to talk about it as a relationship in my life rather than as a matter of theology. But maybe I’m running away. I like the idea of talking to a priest because of the meaning of priesthood in Catholicism. I’m Protestant and so a minister to me isn’t the same kind of thing that a priest is to a Catholic. And I think I want a priest. I want the sacrament of reconciliation. I want to be absolved. I’m supposed to believe in the priesthood of all believers (because I’m Protestant) but it’s not working for me right now. On the other hand, the first step in the sacrament of reconciliation is conversion, so perhaps I’m beyond the help of priests as well.
>>>>I hope you find someone to talk with about this. My faith is very important to me and I'm really lucky to have an older priest who isn't full of those orthodox answers. I think he has seen too much over the years to fall back on "Jesus saves" even though I know he believes it with his whole heart and soul. Having a relationship with your spiritual side is critical to healing. For a very long time I thought this part of me was sort of silly and I was embarrassed by it. But I've begun to see that it is another aspect of being whole and that my brain just doesn't have all the answers. Sometimes I have to just "be" -- and believe that there is path for me and a guide. I like having something to thank also for the good things in my life. And for those religious folks who don't believe in therapy, just in prayer, I sort of say, "then why did God give us the capacity to help each other at all?" As far as the sacrament of reconciliation, conversations can take place with God in your head. I think it is a given that he forgives for whatever you've done, but you have to forgive yourself too. I think you won't feel absolved until you do have some sort of a relationship to God. If you think about your own children, as much as you can get damn near hating them sometimes, that deep love and connection continues to exist. You would forgive them most anything, right? Allow yourself to be comforted from the ultimate parent, and the ultimate blank slate therapist. :)****so desperately want to allow myself to need what I need, even though I know he can’t necessarily give me what I feel I need. I only wish he would tell me outright that it’s OK to need him. Sigh.
>>>>>Indeed. So ask him. Ask for overt permission to need him. Everyone needs to hear things in a concrete way sometimes. Say exactly what you said here. I do this a lot -- I think I'm not supposed to need him "anymore." I wrote about that last week even. He reminds me that everyone needs someone to care about them and this is not only OK but healthy. Start with, "I know the limitations of the therapeutic relationship but there is a deep need for safety and right now you are my safe place. I know that you care about me but I want to know and really feel, that it is OK for me to need you. Tell him he is your emotional security blanket. Even adults need those.You will be OK Tamar. You have a deep connection with your therapist that I think is strong and calls up so much intense need that it feels like a tidal wave you will both drown in. You won't. It isn't easy but keep going. I want you to think about how you felt when he shook your hand. You said you realized at that moment that he would have been OK hearing about how you really felt. Give him the gift of your honesty. It is so scary. And so worth it.
((((Tamar))))
Sorry for the novel. In the mood to write today.
Posted by Tamar on May 27, 2006, at 21:11:31
In reply to Multi thoughts - really long » Tamar, posted by Daisym on May 27, 2006, at 11:58:57
Hi Daisy,
Thanks so much for your response. It’s given me a lot to think about.
> >>>>I think all he can do is keep reassuring you over and over again that it really is all right. After three years in therapy, I still cry when I have to leave half the time, I get freaked out about long weekends and vacations and there are days when I'm sure he is planning my transfer. But if nothing else, I've learned to ask. We talk about my need for reassurance a lot. I apologize but it took me so long to just admit that asking for this reassurance and enduring the embarrassment was so much better than longing for it in silence.
I told my therapist once that I wanted lots of reassurance. He didn’t reply. I think I could ask for it if I thought there was any chance I might get some response from him (can you hear the bitterness?).
> >>>My therapist noted a long time ago that I'm going to know faster than he does if he is getting uncomfortable with something or avoiding it unconsciously, at least most of the time. I think one of the legacies of trauma is that ability to sense a shift in mood. We just know when things feel different. And, I'm saying this as gently as I can, you aren't the only person whose "stuff" he has to keep track of. So if you want to go back to something, you really need to make it OK for yourself to do this. All that said, I would HATE it if my therapist was late a lot. I worry already that I'm at the wrong time and day. You have my sympathy around that.
Oddly enough, the lateness thing doesn’t bother me much. My father and brother and husband are always late for everything. I’m kind of used to it. But you are absolutely right about the legacy of trauma and the sense of shifting mood. I always knew within a minute of my father arriving home whether I was safe to stay in or whether I had to go out to avoid getting punched. And again, I don’t really mind that my T has other clients. I don’t feel any sense of competition with them. I don’t expect my T to remember everything about me. I don’t mind reminding him of stuff. But I’d hoped that the anniversary of the rape might have stuck in his mind, especially when we’d talked about it the last two weeks. It was a really big deal for me, and all he needed to do was make a note of it in my file and read it a couple of minutes before the session. Too much to ask? (more bitterness)
> >>>>My therapist would ask you, "Are you trying to take care of me?" He calls me on this all the time. By taking responsibility for his emotions, you have some semblance of control and maybe you think you will know how to titrate what you are saying to him. What are you afraid will happen if you don't play nice? For me it is being abandoned, or worse, having him lose it and yell at me. Showing the dark side is really hard, especially for those of us who are more or less proud of our intellect and think emotional women get a bad reputation.
You are right. I do try to take care of him. Yeah, being abandoned or the object of anger is really scary for me. But there’s a very practical thing there too. In every other part of life, I’ve found that I’m more likely to get what I want if I play nice. So I figure if I want him to see things from my point of view it’s much more likely to happen if I’m gentle with him. And I know that this is especially true because I have a somewhat postmodern approach to theoretical stuff, whereas I suspect he is much more traditional. I strongly suspect my postmodern take on stuff is uncomfortable to him. But if I want to persuade him I’m right about some of it… well, I don’t think ignoring his feelings about it is likely to help.
> >>>>>So say that. Say it just like that. I can't tell you how many times I've said, "I know the boundaries are there for a reason. But it still hurts to bump into them." I also remind him often that just because I understand them doesn't mean I like them. And he tells me that I can hate them as much as I want or need to, as long as we both agree to respect them. And here is the other thing, he once told me that it is my job to push on the boundaries and his job to hold them. But holding them doesn't mean pointing them out. It is more about walking the talk instead of talking louder and louder. Once in a while he will still put stuff out in a concrete way, and I always respond, "I already KNOW that...it just hurts and it hurts more when it is in my face."
Yes! Absolutely! I don’t need him to remind me; I’m aware of his boundaries all the time. I actually do like them but my own boundaries are so strong that I don’t really need his. I know for a fact that if he begged me for a snuggle I’d ask him what he hoped to gain from it. I’d turn him down if he asked me for sex (it wouldn’t be easy!). I wouldn’t kiss him unless he’d stopped breathing. I have learned the hard way that I need my boundaries for my own protection. And that’s why I get so angry when I talk about what I want symbolically and he reacts as if I’m asking for something inappropriate. (bitter, bitter, bitter)
> >>>>Being emotionally held feels very good. But there is physical need for comfort and safety that is core to all mammals. It is an animal yearning. So it is important to find a way to get this need met so it isn't so big in sessions. I had a horrible time around the "no hugs" policy a few months back. My body image came into play -- you and I have talked about that. But what was really hard was that it was a very young part of me (hmmm, I originally typed him) that needed to connect and she didn't have the words. And we were working on old stuff and guilt about physical needs, so it was all very complicated.
Oh boy! Yeah, I remember you talked about feeling warded off and I cried my eyes out when I read it. I was actually a bit surprised that your therapist didn’t hug you. I had sort of assumed that if anyone would know how to handle hugging without it becoming a problem, your therapist would know. But on the other hand, I remember dreaming about my therapist kissing my breasts, and that it wasn’t a *sexual* dream at all, and how great that was, and of course I know that in real life if he kissed my breasts I would experience some kind of sexual response because my body is designed to respond to men. So I guess I understand the prohibition: no matter how innocent the idea of a hug might be, there’s often an adult physical response that’s automatic and unavoidable. Well, that’s just my view of the hugging thing…
> >>>>Another thing I still don't do well is allow myself to backup immediately when I get hurt or miffed. It is an automatic response to shield the real emotions and keep everything light and "OK" until I can sort it out in private. I think I do this because I don't trust that I'm having the "correct" reaction to whatever was said, or not said. And I know I'm really, really good at saying things in a matter-of-fact way, so they blend in with everything else. But I want him to be magic and know what is important to me and what isn't.
It’s comforting to know I’m not alone in that! The matter-of-fact thing is a kind of protection against becoming too involved, I think. And I’m sure it’s the same when my therapist gets all matter-of-fact with me. He only does it when he’s trying to back off from something, as far as I can tell.
> >>>>I hope you find someone to talk with about this. My faith is very important to me and I'm really lucky to have an older priest who isn't full of those orthodox answers. I think he has seen too much over the years to fall back on "Jesus saves" even though I know he believes it with his whole heart and soul. Having a relationship with your spiritual side is critical to healing. For a very long time I thought this part of me was sort of silly and I was embarrassed by it. But I've begun to see that it is another aspect of being whole and that my brain just doesn't have all the answers. Sometimes I have to just "be" -- and believe that there is path for me and a guide. I like having something to thank also for the good things in my life. And for those religious folks who don't believe in therapy, just in prayer, I sort of say, "then why did God give us the capacity to help each other at all?" As far as the sacrament of reconciliation, conversations can take place with God in your head. I think it is a given that he forgives for whatever you've done, but you have to forgive yourself too. I think you won't feel absolved until you do have some sort of a relationship to God. If you think about your own children, as much as you can get damn near hating them sometimes, that deep love and connection continues to exist. You would forgive them most anything, right? Allow yourself to be comforted from the ultimate parent, and the ultimate blank slate therapist. :)
I have a very bad relationship with God. I don’t want to talk to him and I don’t want him to talk to me. Yes, I agree about forgiving my children pretty much anything. But sometimes I think I need to forgive God as well, for not being perfect (warning: heretical ideas here!). I want God to acknowledge his part in the suffering in the world. It’s not enough to say we have free will. If God really is omnipotent then he can intervene in mundane things. And whenever he doesn’t I think he needs to come up with a better explanation than free will. I’m not saying he should always intervene, but I consider it moral evil whenever he doesn’t. So I guess I’m questioning God’s ethical perspective. I don’t think people should be damaged and destroyed just so that we can have free will. And retributive justice is clearly a non-starter. And when we ask God what on earth he’s thinking he comes out with a response like, “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?” Thanks, God. Very helpful. (Yep, definitely bitter. I identify with Job’s wife: “Curse God and die.”)
> >>>>>Indeed. So ask him. Ask for overt permission to need him.
What if he says no? What if he doesn’t respond? My greatest fear in therapy is that he’ll hurt me so much I will actually kill myself. I’m afraid to ask for permission to need him because if he doesn’t give it I don’t know what I’ll do… And I can’t tell him this because I know it will sound manipulative.
> You will be OK Tamar. You have a deep connection with your therapist that I think is strong and calls up so much intense need that it feels like a tidal wave you will both drown in. You won't. It isn't easy but keep going. I want you to think about how you felt when he shook your hand. You said you realized at that moment that he would have been OK hearing about how you really felt. Give him the gift of your honesty. It is so scary. And so worth it.
You are right. He gave himself to me in that moment. And yet now I feel he’s pulling away as much as possible. Maybe shaking hands again would be a solution. I don’t want him to take responsibility for me, and I don’t want to be responsible for him; I DO want to feel it’s a worthwhile relationship. And I really do want it to be therapy. I had to work very hard on that. I had to work hard to give up the fantasy of a real life friendship. It was one of the hardest things I’ve ever done. And now it seems as though he’s the one finding things hard.
> Sorry for the novel. In the mood to write today.
Please don’t apologise! I really appreciate it. Sorry my responses have sounded so desperate.
Many thanks for your thoughts.
Tamar
Posted by Daisym on May 29, 2006, at 1:54:26
In reply to Posting While Depressed » Daisym, posted by Tamar on May 27, 2006, at 21:11:31
*****I told my therapist once that I wanted lots of reassurance. He didn’t reply. I think I could ask for it if I thought there was any chance I might get some response from him (can you hear the bitterness?).*****It was a really big deal for me, and all he needed to do was make a note of it in my file and read it a couple of minutes before the session. Too much to ask? (more bitterness)
<<<<<<<Can you ask him why he doesn't respond? Perhaps the way to approach it is "I've brought this up before and you didn't respond. Can you tell me why not? Do you think I don't need reassurance or that it isn't healthy for me to get it from you?" My guess is that is you phrase it this way, you will get to hear what he is thinking. At least I hope so. And no, it isn't too much to ask that he read your file and remember something so important. Another thing to be honest about, "I was so upset with you that you didn't bring up the fact that it was the anniversary of the rape. It was important to me that you acknowledge this date." I would be sort of prepared to hear, "why was it important that I remember with you?"
******You are right. I do try to take care of him. Yeah, being abandoned or the object of anger is really scary for me. But there’s a very practical thing there too. In every other part of life, I’ve found that I’m more likely to get what I want if I play nice. So I figure if I want him to see things from my point of view it’s much more likely to happen if I’m gentle with him. And I know that this is especially true because I have a somewhat postmodern approach to theoretical stuff, whereas I suspect he is much more traditional. I strongly suspect my postmodern take on stuff is uncomfortable to him. But if I want to persuade him I’m right about some of it… well, I don’t think ignoring his feelings about it is likely to help.
<<<<<<<<<I think it is reasonable to play nice most of the time. I do that too. But why does he need to see that you are right? I doubt he is ignoring his feelings but rather setting them aside in your best interest. Your sessions are about you, not him. Is this helping you understand your own viewpoint better? What does it mean to you to "be right" yet know he disagrees? Can you tolerate him not arguing with you, yet not agreeing with you? I just hate that!
*****Oh boy! Yeah, I remember you talked about feeling warded off and I cried my eyes out when I read it. I was actually a bit surprised that your therapist didn’t hug you. I had sort of assumed that if anyone would know how to handle hugging without it becoming a problem, your therapist would know. But on the other hand, I remember dreaming about my therapist kissing my breasts, and that it wasn’t a *sexual* dream at all, and how great that was, and of course I know that in real life if he kissed my breasts I would experience some kind of sexual response because my body is designed to respond to men. So I guess I understand the prohibition: no matter how innocent the idea of a hug might be, there’s often an adult physical response that’s automatic and unavoidable. Well, that’s just my view of the hugging thing…
<<<<<<<The whole hug thing was excruciatingly painful for me. I don't like hugs, and I don't like to be touched. So wanting one surprised me. It sort of surprised me too that my therapist has this policy, but he talked about making a conscious decision in favor of safety for clients. And given my history and my on-again/off-again feelings for him, it is probably the safest road to take. But the reason it was so painful was because he didn't tell me this was his policy until it was an issue. That was a big deal to me. I felt stupid and foolish, because I kept vaguely sort of hinting that it was on my mind and he never called it out. This is probably one of the few subjects this has happened with. So I lost it and accused him of avoiding it, because he couldn't stand the thought of touching me. And of course, it happened two days before he went on a 10 day vacation. It was tough to work through it. He admitted to avoiding it (I died a little inside) because he didn't want me to feel rejected, especially before a vacation. Then he said, "I'm pretty sure you already know this is my policy, based on things I've said." Ah -- nope. Felt even more stupid. I told him that I felt let down, like he'd let me walk into a trap without a warning. And I also told him that it might be useful therapeutically to not announce policies until asked, but in my opinion it was pretty unfair to clients. We have a hard enough time with the known boundaries now I have to worry about the unknown ones. It really did take a while to work through this, I was pretty hurt and angry. And I had the added issue of being confronted with the fact that my therapist is human afterall and makes mistakes. That was hard, even if it shouldn't have been. Because if he is human, how can he make all this go away? (sigh)
*******I have a very bad relationship with God. I donut want to talk to him and I donut want him to talk to me. Yes, I agree about forgiving my children pretty much anything. But sometimes I think I need to forgive God as well, for not being perfect (warning: heretical ideas here)!. I want God to acknowledge his part in the suffering in the world. It’s not enough to say we have free will. If God really is omnipotent then he can intervene in mundane things. And whenever he doesn’t I think he needs to come up with a better explanation than free will. I’m not saying he should always intervene, but I consider it moral evil whenever he doesn’t. So I guess I’m questioning God’s ethical perspective. I don’t think people should be damaged and destroyed just so that we can have free will. And retributive justice is clearly a non-starter. And when we ask God what on earth he’s thinking he comes out with a response like, “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?” Thanks, God. Very helpful. (Yep, definitely bitter. I identify with Job’s wife: “Curse God and die.”
>>>>>>>>I'm surprised you don't want to talk to God, or at least yell at him. It is OK to think he isn't perfect. But how can he acknowledge his part in the suffering if he can't talk to you? I hate the free will answer too. How about thinking about the greater good? Perhaps God doesn't intervene because the person who is suffering will touch 10 lives and those 10 will touch 10 more, etc. We can't see the whole big picture -- God can. I think that is the message when he asks the question, where were you...?" I don't think he was saying, "I'm unquestionable." I think he is saying, "You don't have the whole story or picture. I do" I struggle with this every day. Why this baby instead of that one? I posted a while ago about my nurse friend who became a PhD neonatal nurse due to losing a baby in the NICU when she was a floor nurse. 10 years later she met the mom again and told her that her son set all of that in motion. Over the years, Lynn has saved thousands of babies. Is this fair? I have no idea. But it is how I think about it.
You have a lot of stuff to talk about. The bitterness is just a symptom. I can't help but notice it seems to be most directed at things that are out of your control. Feeling safe and having control are critical to folks like us. I hope this continues to be your safe place.
Hugs from me,
Daisy
Posted by orchid on May 30, 2006, at 13:41:53
In reply to My T is one of the best T's » orchid, posted by happyflower on May 26, 2006, at 22:17:24
Ok. I see your point. I was just voicing my own impression that I gleaned from all the posts here. Of course I don't know them first hand, so my impression could be way off base, and I shouldn't express it I guess.
> Orchid,
>
> Even though I don't like the new boundries my T is giving me, I think he is doing what is best for me. My T is not emotionless, he has been there for me and has given me a lot of validation. But now that he knows how much he means to me, he is doing what is best for me, maybe not what either of us truely wants if there were no ethics. But even though it hurts, he is in a way helping me and trying to make me more independent of him.
> Besides I thought in pyscodynamic therapy, the therpist is a blank slate, revealing nothing. So to me that would seem so cold, I think if I started out in that kind of therapy, I would have have quit real fast.
> My T keeps me grounded , keeps me thinking in a more positive way, encourages me to suceed, but he doesn't want to be that rock I need, he wants me to stand on my own. He doesn't want therapy to be about him. I don't know what I am trying to say, but I think I do have a good T and I think he has helped me so much. I know he and I will work through this "problem", because we have before, and I have become more strong because of it.
This is the end of the thread.
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