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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Daisym on March 2, 2006, at 12:04:35
...that is the question.
I met with the group therapist yesterday morning. She is very nice, pretty relaxed and easy to talk to. She knows my therapist and made it a point to say that joining a group is not intended to replace individual therapy, unless that is an individual goal. She noted that I had some concerns about my dependency and she thought being attached to my therapist was a good thing. She also said, "However, eventually we all need to grow up and expand our support network and let go, a little bit at a time." OK - we agree on that.
She told me how the group works, there are three members right now, and how she facilitates. It is a support/therapy group, which means she guides but she also digs for reactions and feelings. She said she won't let anyone person take over the group for more than a session and she will schedule an individual meeting if someone is bringing a lot of conflict into each group. She has run groups for about 8 years. I asked her why she did this kind of work and she talked about women's issues and how effective she found groups to be. She did ask specific questions about my family dynamics, siblings, parents etc. I told her lots of stuff in broad terms in a very "executive" fashion, not a lot of emotion but a lot of reflective "this is what I've learned about myself" statements. And I really have learned a lot in the past few years.
At the end of the hour she told me she thought I'd be a good fit but she needed to check things out with the group to make sure no one knows me. She said she gives some basic information -- first name, city you live in, kind of work you do, kids, etc.-- and if someone in the group knows you they can say whether that is a problem for them. And then she checks it out with me. The risk is that now someone you know knows that you experienced csa, because this is a survivor's group. That is awfully scary. The other thing that was hard, though I can cope with it, is she uses words like "perpetrator, non-perpetrating parent, incest, molest," etc. It made me wince.
I left, went back to work and thought I was doing fine. I looked at the clock and realized a couple of hours had gone by and I hadn't done anything. So I went home for lunch and fell apart. I sat on the floor in the corner of my living room and sobbed and sobbed. I had actually told another person, face to face, who was now going to tell three more people. I was actually going to be called a "survivor" -- and it was real--- and it was taking up so much space in my life. I was terrified and felt 9 years old. I felt I was in so much trouble and I wanted to run away, or worse. I was actually pretty suicidal for a while. I'm sure this was an old feeling, unleashed by the terror of telling.
I met with my own therapist late in the afternoon and told him about the meeting and falling apart. I told him he could talk to the adult part or little daisy, because I was feeling very split and having two opposite reactions to this idea of a group. He talked to little daisy first, her stuff was so urgent. After a while we tried to get into what I was hoping a group would do for me. And that was it, I lost it completely. It is about diluting my need for him, about having somewhere else to take some of this grief so he doesn't get sick of it. He said it sounded like I don't think he can be there for me anymore. Not true! I'm just beyond terrified that it is too much, he will abandoned me. He will have to save himself at some point from the tidal wave of hurt and anger that pours out. He says no, he can take it. He just doesn't know what else to do to help with this fear, except to prove over and over again, everyday, that he is "right here." I don't know either. I wish I could say, "Just do this, or say this," in order to put this fear to rest. Finally and forever. I don't know what that would be. I'm open to suggestions.
So today we will talk about the group idea some more. I still think it is a good idea. Even as the younger parts begin to panic again. To them, it is the beginning of the end of being safe.
Thank you all for the great questions. I asked all of them and the therapist asked me if I'd been in a group before. I said not in the traditional sense, but I was heavily involved in an online group, and some of that group had done groups. (did ya follow all of that?) She thought that was cool. I'll let you know what I decide.
Posted by zenhussy on March 2, 2006, at 12:36:18
In reply to To Group, or not to Group...(trigger), posted by Daisym on March 2, 2006, at 12:04:35
Judith Herman's Trauma and Recovery (ISBN 0 465 08730 2) has good information about group work for survivors. We used the specific info in her book when we were considering ending our group work after a year and a half.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20031213/msgs/291360.html
two years ago you had this to say after reading that thread back then: >>>"What a great and wonderful post. I feel like I learned a lot just by reading it, not the least of which is that there is hope for progress on this journey. I've just started mine but after a VERY intense session this afternoon was wondering if it is even worth it. Maybe I'll rethink that."<<<it IS worth it Daisy....just find what works for you and keep listening inside. to have reached a point where we're not existing in constant pain and suicidal ideation is beyond what we ever imagined possible. now that we're living it we KNOW the hard work, the constant communication with our team of professionals, and other pro-active measures have made the difference.
sent msg to old addy with link that we do not wish to post here. let us know if you receive pls.
Posted by Gee on March 2, 2006, at 13:23:33
In reply to Re: To Group, or not to Group...(trigger) » Daisym, posted by zenhussy on March 2, 2006, at 12:36:18
Wow Daisy, it sounds like quite the day. I just wanted to tell you how brave I think you are. It's not easy to let people in, but it will become easier with time. Maybe the support/thearpy group could really help?
Posted by TherapyGirl on March 2, 2006, at 15:54:20
In reply to To Group, or not to Group...(trigger), posted by Daisym on March 2, 2006, at 12:04:35
Hi, Daisy. I know you don't know me and I don't really know you, although I've been following your posts for a while now. I can't describe the way your writing affects me -- you feel what I feel, but you express it so much better than I ever could.
I feel and hear your terror at not being safe anymore. I would suggest to the little ones, though, that the ways they made themselves safe over the years are no longer working for you -- right?
I know this is scary, but I also hear a faint glimmer of hope in your post that this is the next step on your journey and that you're ready for it. The group leader sounds like she knows what she's doing. And if it doesn't work for you, you can stop going, right?
Please keep us posted and keep writing.
Posted by annierose on March 2, 2006, at 16:38:37
In reply to Re: To Group, or not to Group...(trigger) » Daisym, posted by TherapyGirl on March 2, 2006, at 15:54:20
Daisy -
I think you continue to surround yourself with strength --- strength within yourself, strength with your relationship with your T and strength to seek out more support.
The group leader seems quite professional and has thought through the group dynamic process. I am glad that you are going to try to reach out to more people. I know it's scary to tell your story. But you are doing it.
It reminds me of "The Shining Afflicton" when Annie says what we fear the most, has already happened to us.
Posted by Emily Elizabeth on March 2, 2006, at 23:43:44
In reply to To Group, or not to Group...(trigger), posted by Daisym on March 2, 2006, at 12:04:35
What an intense set of experiences. I hope that you have been able to take gentle care of yourself for the rest of the day.
Of course, I support whatever decision you make about joining the group. But, I did want to share that it struck me that having a female T leading the gp might be a nice addition to your individual work with a male T. CSA has a complex relationship with one's self image as a woman and I wonder if a female T might be able to help you explore that in a new way.
Also, and maybe you want to ask your T about this, but I suspect that he thinks you are ready to do this painful work, with the ugly words, the new people, etc.
Could you call up the gp leader again and tell her abt your reaction to the meeting. Perhaps she has some helpful input abt whether it makes sense to join the gp.
Could you give yourself a trial period? Like say, attend 6 sessions and then decide? Groups are not for everyone. But, some people have found them to be invaluable. Good luck. Keep us posted.
Best,
EE
Posted by Voce on March 3, 2006, at 0:44:21
In reply to To Group, or not to Group...(trigger), posted by Daisym on March 2, 2006, at 12:04:35
Daisy, I admire you so much for even being open to the group idea. You are so brave...let us know how it goes. I think it may open a lot of new areas for you to talk about in therapy. Not a replacement, but an enhancement.
I think it's cool that the group leader liked the idea of Babble. :-)
Posted by Racer on March 3, 2006, at 14:57:19
In reply to Re: To Group, or not to Group...(trigger) » Daisym, posted by Voce on March 3, 2006, at 0:44:21
I'm with Emily Elizabeth -- go to a few group sessions and then decide. You're not making a choice that will stay with you for life. You're choosing whether or not to give this a try. Just like with a new AD, if there are adverse effects, you can stop the treatment.
Deep breath, now is it frightening to you to think that maybe you're doing something good for yourself? Is it frightening that maybe you're taking care of yourself quite actively, rather than doing the minimum required to allow you to make everyone else happy? (This is something that's coming up for me, so consider it pure projection...)
When I was a kid, my mother told me that I could never tell anyone, because it would be too embarrassing for her. That stayed with me, and even know I do feel a little disloyalty every time I say, "Yes, I was sexually abused as a child." I'm a bit farther than you are in this, only because it's been so many, many years since I first said that out loud. But even now, there's a bit of me saying "Mommy would be embarrassed that I'm telling." But you know what? Another part of me says, "you won't heal until you can *feel* that it was something *done to* you, not something you caused to happen." And, if that's true, part of what that involves is recognizing my mother's own complicity in it, through her instruction to keep it a secret. Does that make any sense?
So, my naughty little girl friend, learning that you can "tell on" him, and survive telling, may be part of your recovery process, too. Maybe you can learn to think of this as part of healing?
Got another one for you, too, on accounta my brain hurts today and it's making weird things come up: is it shameful to be A Cancer Survivor? Chew on that for a bit...
(It just came up -- that was free association. I'm gonna chew on it, too.)
Posted by Daisym on March 3, 2006, at 22:51:53
In reply to Re: To Group, or not to Group...(trigger) » Daisym, posted by zenhussy on March 2, 2006, at 12:36:18
Thanks for the link and for the reminder that all this is worth it. I wish for a lot of things but I wish you didn't understand it all so well. I'm glad you are healing and have such a strong team.
Posted by Daisym on March 3, 2006, at 22:54:46
In reply to Re: To Group, or not to Group...(trigger), posted by Gee on March 2, 2006, at 13:23:33
I've seen that word applied to me a couple of times lately: brave. I think I'm just desperate to feel better, to hurt less and to find joy in my life again. I'd do almost anything to get my joy back.
I feel like a kid going to kindergarten for the first time. I want to be with the other big kids but I'm hanging on to my mom's skirt for dear life. I was horribly shy as a child and I feel like that again.
But thanks for the encouragement. I hope it helps too.
Posted by Daisym on March 3, 2006, at 23:09:54
In reply to Re: To Group, or not to Group...(trigger) » Daisym, posted by TherapyGirl on March 2, 2006, at 15:54:20
I'm glad my writing helps you. I often think I write too much, put too many "he said, she said" things into my posts. I have babble-writestoomuch-syndrome!
I tried a writing exercise Wed night using Pfinstegg's idea of a family meeting between parts. It was really amazing how easy it was to do. I imagined us all in my therapist's "tree house" office and essentially just took notes about the discussion. The meeting centered on how to feel safe in therapy again and how to keep the connection to my therapist strong. I took the writing into therapy on Thursday and we went through it. Each part was represented and my therapist took time to figure out what each part wanted/needed to feel safe. There isn't agreement so he had to do a lot of listening. What we came to was that the youngest part needed it to be OK to want to sit in his lap and/or hug him and to hold on to his talisman again. (have you read about the talisman?) He said he was struck by the fact that on Wed he almost suggested taking it back for awhile because that part of me seemed to really need that concrete reminder. He said it was nice that we were on the same wave length. :) We concentrated on this youngest part because her neediness is making me nuts and is very painful to try to contain. The other parts each got homework - the angry part needs to find some competitive, physical outlet to let off some steam, even if it is breaking dishes. The sad part is to finish the poem she is writing and bring it in to therapy to share. And the adult part, "me" is supposed to just let the dependency/attachment feeling be OK this weekend. No fighting them, no worrying about therapy ending, no shouldn'ts. I'm just supposed to let go and sink into it.
And after that, try to make a decision about joing the group on Monday. I think my therapist heard me say that starting a group feels like the beginning of the end of our relationship so he wants me to believe that this just isn't true. And he doesn't want me to push myself to join the group just to take care of him. So we still have some talking to do about it.
sorry this reply got so long. I guess I still have a lot to process about this week. See -- babble-writestoomuch-syndrome!
Posted by Daisym on March 3, 2006, at 23:13:42
In reply to Re: To Group, or not to Group...(trigger), posted by annierose on March 2, 2006, at 16:38:37
That is one of my favorite lines. This was one of the books I kept and didn't give to my therapist. The other line I love is "I think you want to lie down to wake up a little..." It always made so much sense to me.
I hope the group brings out more strength and doesn't just magnify the need to be taken care of. The whole thing is scary.
Thanks for your support. I'm counting on you to help me through this!
Posted by Daisym on March 3, 2006, at 23:27:13
In reply to Re: To Group, or not to Group...(trigger) » Daisym, posted by Emily Elizabeth on March 2, 2006, at 23:43:44
What you say makes sense. And my therapist asked me if I felt like I was betraying "anyone" by thinking of a group...and I said, "yes, you." So we talked about this idea of reaching beyond him and what it would be like to work with a woman. When I was making the list of questions to ask, I teased him that I needed to find out what to wear. He responded, "that's right. You'll be meeting with a female, so the shoes have to be just right." I told him it wasn't the individual meeting, it was the group meeting...4 women to assess my dress! But I can see how this would be good for me because I have so many issues with my mother, maybe it would help with them?
That said, I can't imagine any therapist, woman or man, who could be better to work with around the csa stuff. I've heard people talk about not being able to work with a man because of the trust issues. I get that. But my therapist makes me feel safe, alternating between being sad with me, him feeling protective and letting me know when he is, and pushing me gently to tell him the details. And understanding just how much support I need to get through it all. I'm sure there are other experienced therapists who could do as good a job. But I think it is their experience and approach, not their gender. (I'm not arguing with you, I hope you know. It just has come up on this board before about whether a man can really be effective in working with this "woman's issue.")
You make a very sensible suggestion about going a few times and stopping if it isn't working. My question is how do you know if it is painful and uncomfortable in a good way, vs. a bad way?
Posted by Daisym on March 3, 2006, at 23:30:19
In reply to Re: To Group, or not to Group...(trigger) » Daisym, posted by Voce on March 3, 2006, at 0:44:21
OK -- MORE areas to talk about?!!! I think I have enough, thank you! :)
I don't feel brave. I want someone to hold my hand and I want to carry my little elephant in my pocket for safety. (My therapist told little daisy on Thursday that my elephant was magical.) But I'm sure the group expects the grown up me to show up.
I'll share. Probably more than you'll want me to!
Thanks for the support.
Hugs - Daisy
Posted by Daisym on March 3, 2006, at 23:59:16
In reply to I like EE's advice (poss trigger), posted by Racer on March 3, 2006, at 14:57:19
> I'm with Emily Elizabeth -- go to a few group sessions and then decide. You're not making a choice that will stay with you for life. You're choosing whether or not to give this a try. Just like with a new AD, if there are adverse effects, you can stop the treatment.
If I have as much trouble adjusting to the group as I did to the AD I'm in big trouble. And if I'm as stubborn as I was about quitting it, I'm in really big trouble.
> Deep breath, now is it frightening to you to think that maybe you're doing something good for yourself? Is it frightening that maybe you're taking care of yourself quite actively, rather than doing the minimum required to allow you to make everyone else happy? (This is something that's coming up for me, so consider it pure projection...)
I don't think it is about taking care of myself, but I admit that I'm wondering how I'll work it into my hectic schedule. And tell my husband that I have yet another therapy related activity that takes me away from home. I'm going to inconvenience someone if I try to do this.
> When I was a kid, my mother told me that I could never tell anyone, because it would be too embarrassing for her. That stayed with me, and even know I do feel a little disloyalty every time I say, "Yes, I was sexually abused as a child." I'm a bit farther than you are in this, only because it's been so many, many years since I first said that out loud. But even now, there's a bit of me saying "Mommy would be embarrassed that I'm telling." But you know what? Another part of me says, "you won't heal until you can *feel* that it was something *done to* you, not something you caused to happen." And, if that's true, part of what that involves is recognizing my mother's own complicity in it, through her instruction to keep it a secret. Does that make any sense?
Yes. Total sense. I feel like the whole world knows but in reality only a handful of people do. Babble is the only place besides therapy that I share this; a few of my friends know because when I was suicidal I needed them to keep me safe and I needed them to know it wasn't about something they could help with. But wrapped up in the "don't tell" issue is the idea that I'll lose my therapist for telling. This is probably as pure a transference as I've had, I can see it, and yet I'm still terrified that it is true. It doesn't completely make sense to me yet.
And...I think it is very sad that I can think about telling strangers and I can't even begin to imagine telling my own family. How strong is that need to protect everyone from the truth? And to protect how they think of me.
> So, my naughty little girl friend, learning that you can "tell on" him, and survive telling, may be part of your recovery process, too. Maybe you can learn to think of this as part of healing?
I said this to my therapist on the phone today, "what if they don't like me? What if I survive telling and turn into someone the world has no use for?" it is scary to think that healing means changing and to risk having people like you instead of MAKING them like you by all the things you can do for them.
>
> Got another one for you, too, on accounta my brain hurts today and it's making weird things come up: is it shameful to be A Cancer Survivor? Chew on that for a bit...
>
> (It just came up -- that was free association. I'm gonna chew on it, too.)I know people who are ashamed to still need their support group after they are "cured" of cancer. They all point to people who have moved on with life and aren't still worried all the time about a relapse. And I know people who don't want other people to know they've had cancer because they don't want people to feel sorry for them or treat them different. But all that said, I think it is more acceptable to have had cancer than to admit to csa. So many people still think of this as something that you should just "get over" or get past. And then there is that whole "are you sure?" question because we all know that little kids misinterpret things, right? It makes people so uncomfortable.
I might have posted this already, but my brain is tired tonight so I'm going to tell it again. After doing some thinking about when during sex I float away, my therapist asked me if I get scared if it feels good. I got pretty upset and said it never feels good (but I'm not really *there* so how can I be sure?) and it probably never will. That this, along with so many other things, were ruined for me. He gave me this speech about how it is still possible for me to have these things in my life in a good, healthy way, but it will take a lot of time. And I would need to be with someone who is safe and who would go slow. I said, "they would need to know what happened to me." He agreed. And then I burst into tears and said, "why would anyone want to have sex with me if they knew?" He very quietly said, "because they love you and are turned on by you."
It is so hard to believe that telling about this will bring someone closer, not drive them away. Even members of a group for csa. You know?
Posted by Emily Elizabeth on March 4, 2006, at 0:31:56
In reply to Re: To Group, or not to Group...(trigger) » Emily Elizabeth, posted by Daisym on March 3, 2006, at 23:27:13
> That said, I can't imagine any therapist, woman or man, who could be better to work with around the csa stuff.I think that is lovely. I'm so glad that you found your way to him. :)
I've heard people talk about not being able to work with a man because of the trust issues. I get that. But my therapist makes me feel safe, alternating between being sad with me, him feeling protective and letting me know when he is, and pushing me gently to tell him the details. And understanding just how much support I need to get through it all. I'm sure there are other experienced therapists who could do as good a job. But I think it is their experience and approach, not their gender. (I'm not arguing with you, I hope you know. It just has come up on this board before about whether a man can really be effective in working with this "woman's issue.")
Yeah, and to be honest, I know that part (but not all) of my opinon on this comes from my own distrust of men.
>
> You make a very sensible suggestion about going a few times and stopping if it isn't working. My question is how do you know if it is painful and uncomfortable in a good way, vs. a bad way?I think it will be really important to discuss the experience openly w/ your T and the group leader. They can help you get a sense about whether the level of discomfort and stress that you are experiencing is to be expected, or if it is extreme. But, most of all, you must listen to yourself. I really believe that you will know for yourself whether it is too much or not. If you feel like you cannot take it, then it is not the right time.
Best,
EE
Posted by Racer on March 4, 2006, at 1:42:24
In reply to Re: To Group, or not to Group...(trigger) » Emily Elizabeth, posted by Daisym on March 3, 2006, at 23:27:13
> >
> You make a very sensible suggestion about going a few times and stopping if it isn't working. My question is how do you know if it is painful and uncomfortable in a good way, vs. a bad way?You'll know. You really will. You can tell when the hurt is an ache that's about getting stronger, like what you do at the gym. It'll feel like the hard sessions with your T, at the beginning, when you probably said things like, "Why do I do this?" but came back anyway, because you knew that it was a good, healthy pain of healing.
And tell me about the shoes I was wearing the other night? THEN you can worry about what you'll wear to group. :-D
This is the end of the thread.
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