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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 31. Go back in thread:
Posted by pinkeye on March 8, 2005, at 19:16:37
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable » daisym, posted by alexandra_k on March 8, 2005, at 17:06:39
Hi Alex,
I think the problem with you is you are some sort of super smart. That is your problem. You understand things so clearly.. Then why are you in so much trouble? Why can't you work your way to your wellness?I really can't understand. You said a while back that you suffer a lot.. but I can see now how capable you are.. So why don't you figure out a way for yourself to get better?
To some extent that is what I did. I was perhaps not as smart as you are, but I did have an above average IQ. And I was suffering so much. And I also knew quite a bit of logical thinking and even knowledge about emotions and such. But I was not able to feel happy. Are you in the same state as I was?
Posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 19:53:59
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable » fallsfall, posted by partlycloudy on March 8, 2005, at 13:49:53
Thanks for your thoughts, PartlyCloudy.
I do currently work 10 hours a week at the local library. I started out volunteering there. In the course of my (very) part time job, I run into issues which I know have contributed to my crashes in the past. For example, if someone is not doing as good a job as I think they should, and they are not willing to improve, then I tend to take over and do my job and their job, too. I know this is a problem, but I haven't worked out the solution yet. The fact that I'm part time helps to make the issue clearer, and I am working on it. So from my part time work, I can see that there are issues I still need to learn to deal with.
The job fear is related to "failing". I put whatever effort is needed into a job to be sure that I don't fail (I am a recovering workaholic). Twice, though, I have worked for companies that have been going through layoffs. In those companies, valuable employees who were doing a good job were being laid off. I think that that stress contributed greatly to my crashes. I don't know if I could "fail" while volunteering - usually a volunteer who is not doing what is necessary is reassigned. And if you don't have to pay them, then you don't need to lay them off.
But I would feel guilty if I thought I was "capable" of working, yet I was volunteering. Some of the issue is what the definition of "capable" is. Perhaps if the work leads to a crash that indicates that I'm not "capable". The guilt involves being "capable" yet still accepting money from Social Security.
My current plan includes a change from Software to Libraries in an attempt to reduce the intrinsic stress of the job. I'm just not convinced that it will be enough of a difference.
It is helpful for me to be doing work where when I'm feeling better I can do more than is expected, and when I'm feeling lousy I can still meet expectations.
Posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 20:11:26
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable » fallsfall, posted by pinkeye on March 8, 2005, at 14:35:38
Hi Pinkeye,
Your point that different life circumstances permit different lifestyles is a valid one. And I agree that the ability to work is not required to be an "acceptable human being".
I guess that my issue is that if I am "disabled" then the government will give me money to live on. I feel like I should be living up to my potential - and everyone tells me how capable I am. Accepting disability money doesn't feel like living up to my potential. Even accepting an inheritance and living off of that doesn't feel like living up to my potential. I guess I have money issues... It should be that if I were independently wealthy that I should be able to feel that I'm living up to my potential by volunteering. But I think that I would feel like I should be making money to pass on to my children.........
Perhaps if I decide that I *can't* work, that would require me to admit that I am not a "capable" person. I'm just not ready to give up on that yet. But the road to being "capable" seems impossibly hard.
I long ago gave up the notion that I need to be perfect. At this point I would be happy to be able to simply support myself.
I guess the problem is that *I* don't feel that I am acceptable.
Posted by partlycloudy on March 8, 2005, at 20:12:29
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable » partlycloudy, posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 19:53:59
I have spent most of my time in therapy on work and performance related anxiety. I have downgraded myself over several jobs so that now I am a receptionist - a job which I insist is low stress, yet; I have extremely well defined hours of work that are difficult to adjust (for appointments or crashes); I do a job no one else wants to do, and I've been at this place for almost 2 years and I'm only now becoming comfortable there.
Please, please, please - don't go back to anything full time before YOU are ready and eager to go back.
Don't think that you change to change YOURSELF - it's how you react to others' performance and behaviour on the job that you can change - not the fundamental Falls behind it.
It's OK to work within your comfort levels - and maybe this volunteer position is a good time to try to change your reaction to others' performances. Instead of making up others' shortcomings by doing it yourself, see what happens if you do *nothing*. What will happen? Really?
Also, lastly, I am grateful to my ex-husband for teaching me a most valuable life lesson (OK, apart from the 18 years we were married); and that is not to let myself be defined by the work I do.
hugs to you, Fallsfall.
pc.
Posted by daisym on March 8, 2005, at 20:19:04
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable » daisym, posted by alexandra_k on March 8, 2005, at 17:06:39
I didn't say not working wasn't acceptable. I said manipulating people to have them take care of you is unacceptable. Or at least that is what I meant to say.
Personal choice is always acceptable. And if you've figured out how to meet your basic needs and you aren't hurting anyone else, whatever choice you make is fine by me. I don't think anyone has to lead a socially acceptable life style, they should lead the one that makes them happy. I just don't want anyone else to be hurt or manipulated along the way.
Is this any clearer? Probably not. Sorry...full day of meetings and my brain is fried.
:(
Posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 20:21:28
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable, posted by daisym on March 8, 2005, at 15:13:45
Ah, the old "can't" vs. "don't want to". But aren't we told that if we work hard enough in therapy that we "can". So doesn't that mean that if I "can't" that I'm not working hard enough to change that to a "can"? Maybe I still can't see that I have limits. When is accepting limits being "realistic" and when is it "giving up"?
Isn't it my responsibility to get better? Am I not failing if I don't? How long can I try to get better before I should admit that this is as good as it is going to get? I know I'm not there yet - but how do I know when I *am* there?
How do we know if I "can't" or if I'm just too stubborn to "can"?
Sorry to be so bitter. I do appreciate your compassion - I just can't find the same compassion for myself.
Posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 21:29:43
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable » fallsfall, posted by alexandra_k on March 8, 2005, at 16:59:21
Thanks, Alexandra. You make some good points.
I think that I have accepted that I can't work today. What I haven't accepted is that I may not be able to work next year. I have a goal, but honestly don't know if I will be able to achieve it or not. I don't know how many obstacles will be in my way. I don't know if I will be able to successfully get around them.
>Try not to think of it as moving from a less perfect state to a more perfect state though.
Think of it as moving from a less prefered state to a more preferred one.This reminds me of when we would fix bugs in our software programs and say that we had replaced that "feature" with a more popular one 8^).
You are correct that the "I *should* be able to earn a living" doesn't seem to be helping. But somehow knowing that doesn't make my expectations change.
I think that some of my frustration is that I *have* figured out what I need to do in order to change the situation. But I find that I am not able to do those things - which leaves me stuck in the situation. So now I need to figure out what I have to do to be able to do the things that I need to be able to do in order to go back to work. It just seems like I go from baby steps to microorganism steps...
What you say does make sense. But I haven't figured out how to do it. It all seems to hinge on acceptance - and I don't have that. And to say "OK. So I'll just accept myself." seems to be sort of like how you describe your experience with CBT... Sigh.
Posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 21:32:43
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable » alexandra_k, posted by pinkeye on March 8, 2005, at 19:16:37
Being intellectually smart is not necessarily an advantage in therapy. In many ways it is a disadvantage because you are deluded into thinking that you should be able to intellectually understand emotions and unconscious stuff - and it just doesn't work that way.
Posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 21:38:20
In reply to Let's change the title of this thread, OK? » fallsfall, posted by partlycloudy on March 8, 2005, at 20:12:29
>Don't think that you change to change YOURSELF - it's how you react to others' performance and behaviour on the job that you can change - not the fundamental Falls behind it.
But this "fundamental Falls" has not been successful. This fundamental Falls is flawed.
Yes, I am trying to *not* do the other person's job - talk about stressful!!!
Thanks, PartlyCloudy. I can tell that you do understand.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 8, 2005, at 23:45:01
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable » alexandra_k, posted by pinkeye on March 8, 2005, at 19:16:37
> why are you in so much trouble? Why can't you work your way to your wellness?
> why don't you figure out a way for yourself to get better?Indeed. I struggled with that for a really really really really long time. I read the treatment manuels, why wasn't I getting any better??
1) Because one needs anothers point of view / perspective sometimes.
2) Because no matter how much you know something intellectually, you don't learn it experientially unless you live through the experience.Maybe it is the same..
But maybe you had a greater desire to change?
I don't know.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 8, 2005, at 23:48:55
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable » alexandra_k, posted by daisym on March 8, 2005, at 20:19:04
Its ok. I was kind of yanking your chain (sorry). I have lived on welfare (government handouts) for most of my life. As a secondary student. As a tertiary student. On the sickness benefit. On the dole. I planned never to work. But then I dicovered something I enjoyed :-)
But I accept all those 'welfare bums' out there. Sure I do...Every little kid has a dream or two.
Something or other that they want to grow up to be.
Somthing happened to knock that out of them.
They need to be educated.
Empowered.
To move to a more preferable state of being
;-)
I'll get off my soap box now.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 8, 2005, at 23:59:09
In reply to Re: Let's change the title of this thread, OK? » partlycloudy, posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 21:38:20
I don't know what to say..
Except that I do acceptance as a mindfulness (meditation) technique. Practice. Practice focusing the mind. In theory it might help me ruminate less too. Be able to direct my attention more. To be able to say 'that is okay' and put it away. To accept something. I don't know. It isn't something that you just do once and it is done. It is something that you have to do over and over again. Each time you find yourself fighting.
I don't know.
I am no expert on acceptance or on meditation.
But maybe it would help to be able to accept that other people have different standards in their work and that that is okay. And also that you can just leave their job to them (whether or not they are doing it up to your standard) and that is okay too.
It is a journey.
I don't have any magic answer for you.
Baby teny tiny steps are fine.
Really.
But you are okay just the way you are.
I still stand by that :-)
Posted by Aphrodite on March 9, 2005, at 13:16:55
In reply to You have to change to be acceptable, posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 11:59:42
I really can't add much but my support. It's obvious that your very insightful mind has taken a lot of time to try to come to some peace about this issue. I hate lose/lose situations, and most of all, I would hate anything guilt-induced by expectations, real or inferred, from others or yourself to cause you to have a depressive episode.
Let us know how the voc rehab visit goes. Perhaps you're sorting all this out for fear of their assessment. Evaluation can cause such anxiety.
Hugs if OK.
Posted by pinkeye on March 9, 2005, at 15:12:16
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable » pinkeye, posted by alexandra_k on March 8, 2005, at 23:45:01
I agree with you. Sometimes it just is beyond our grasp to figure out a better life for us. We need some one else who is an expert at this to figure it out for us.
I did have a great desire to change. Mainly because I realized I was suffering so much, and needed to change and help myself. Finally we are the ones who have to help ourselves.
Posted by gardenergirl on March 9, 2005, at 21:46:51
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable » pinkeye, posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 20:11:26
> Perhaps if I decide that I *can't* work, that would require me to admit that I am not a "capable" person. I'm just not ready to give up on that yet. But the road to being "capable" seems impossibly hard.
Forgive me if this is addressed in a later post by someone. But what struck me in the above sentence is "capable" for what? "Capable" is a very broad term. You are capable of feeding yourself, raising children, providing amazing support, working hard to understand yourself and grow...and so many more things. I know that many many people define themselves by their jobs or careers. But is really only one narrow aspect.
You, falls, are very very capable.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on March 9, 2005, at 22:10:50
In reply to You have to change to be acceptable, posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 11:59:42
>
> I don't understand how we can both be accepted as we are right now, and still have goals to change. If we have goals to change, doesn't that mean that we aren't acceptable the way we are?Think of Oprah, or someone else admirable. Don't they also have goals? Aren't they also working towards personal growth and self-actualization? Aren't they also okay right now just as they are? So are we. Being acceptable doesn't preclude someone from growing and changing. And I think that viewing yourself as acceptable within the context of where you are in your own developmental process is fine--as long as you don't fault yourself by comparing your place on the journey to others. You are where you are. And that's okay.
>
> I know that my therapist would be happy if I were able to go back to work - because he knows that is what I want. But doesn't that mean that he will be unhappy if I can't go back to work?Nope. It doesn't have to be either or. We all would be happy if you get to do what you want to do. But we love you as you are, too.
Doesn't it mean that he equates success with my going back to work? He tells me that those conclusions are not valid. But I can't believe him.
Believe him. I do. He can both accept you as you are and also be a partner on your journey to self-improvement.
gg
Posted by Dinah on March 10, 2005, at 0:55:38
In reply to You have to change to be acceptable, posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 11:59:42
I just don't know what to say. I'm ruining my health in a stressful job because I believe that I have to maintain doing what I'm doing to be acceptable. In fact I need to do it as well as I used to do it, doing it as well as I'm doing it right now isn't enough. And I get plenty of support for that position. My husband thinks I need to work harder, my bosses think I need to work harder, my therapist thinks I need to work harder. Everyone thinks that if I used to do it, I can still do it and I'm just not working hard enough.
Maybe they're right.
Moreover, the message I got my entire life is that performance counts. I was the beloved daughter because I was good and did well at school and did my chores. My brother was an example of what happened if you didn't do those things. You might still be loved in some sense but you were also despised and degraded. I had a taste of it myself when I slipped.
I don't even think it's on my therapist's list of things to do to get me to think otherwise. He himself is very performance oriented. Hence the coaching sideline.
I want to tell you that of course you don't have to change to be acceptable. You are intrinsically acceptable, loveable, and perfect just the way you are. And on some level I believe it. For you, anyway. But for me to tell you that with any real conviction, I'd have to believe it for myself. And I can't do that.
So the best I can do is to hope that all of us who feel like we need to change, or meet a certain standard, to be acceptable can learn that that isn't so. No, what I'd really like is for that to be not so.
Which it isn't of course. For you, anyway. Not for me. Thank God for Provigil.
Posted by Dinah on March 10, 2005, at 0:56:19
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on March 10, 2005, at 0:55:38
Posted by Dinah on March 10, 2005, at 0:59:51
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on March 10, 2005, at 0:55:38
About Provigil. A story to illustrate my point.
I was telling my therapist that I felt I was abusing Provigil even though I was taking less than the prescribed dose because I was using it to override my body's desire for rest and sleep.
He asked if it was helping me get my work done. I answered yes. Then he told me that it was doing its job and to keep taking it.
Posted by Daisym on March 10, 2005, at 10:43:11
In reply to P.P.S., posted by Dinah on March 10, 2005, at 0:59:51
I had sort of this conversation with my therapist yesterday too...he noted that I "did fine" being away and not seeing him for almost a week. Yup, I "did fine." I went really quiet and then told him that it was once again a message that by reaching deep, pulling out the emotional armor, getting into the suit, leading the group, that I'm "doing fine." Thank you. I'll just keep the suit on and the "real" part of me can go back to the shadows. He asked what the real part of me would have done different.
So I told him that at the conference there was a video about attachment and the damage multiple care providers can do to a young child. There was a sad little girl who refused to connect to anyone. The "real" me had tears in her eyes. The Executive Director me got up and left the table. If the real me was acceptable, I would have wiped the tears at the table and no one would have flinched at the ch*nk in the armor.
It is a message we get over and over again. So you are right Dinah, it is hard to know what to say about working. Because I believe like you that you ARE totally acceptable where you are now. But there is so much pressure to prove your worth with work. *sigh* this is one of those "no right answer" things, isn't it?
Posted by Daisym on March 10, 2005, at 10:46:05
In reply to P.P.S., posted by Dinah on March 10, 2005, at 0:59:51
The more I think about my reaction to being defined by my ability to work I wonder, do I want people to see the weaker, more tender side that is falling apart? (no)And why do I want to negate what clearly I can do? Why is it that it feels bad to have someone point out how well I'm doing, or how good at putting things away I am?
I don't understand me. This thread makes my head hurt.
Posted by fallsfall on March 12, 2005, at 13:45:54
In reply to But... » Dinah, posted by Daisym on March 10, 2005, at 10:46:05
My Voc Rehab meeting went fine on Thursday. When you have researched something to death and role played every possibly scenario, you can pretty much guarantee that there are no surprises. There were no surprises.
And he is happy to have me go at whatever pace is good for me. And he thought the Library plan sounded great. And he was "excited for" me.
He wants me to go see a consultant who teaches the Voc Rehab counselors in my state - and have this consultant do my assessment. The guy sounds pretty good. I told him I would let him know when I was ready.
So why am I so overwhelmed and terrified about all of this? It is going just the way I want it to. I couldn't ask for more support. I couldn't ask for less pressure.
I'm hoping that over time the prospect of going back to work will get a little less terrifying. That will happen, won't it??
Posted by Aphrodite on March 12, 2005, at 15:25:19
In reply to Voc Rehab, posted by fallsfall on March 12, 2005, at 13:45:54
Surely it will get better.
I'm so glad your meeting went well and you weren't thrown any curve balls. He's right -- go at your own pace.
I know it's hard.
Posted by 10derHeart on March 12, 2005, at 17:36:32
In reply to Voc Rehab, posted by fallsfall on March 12, 2005, at 13:45:54
I know it will get better. I've been following your thread as much as I can, and really feel for you. You have remarkable courage, I think, to try to figure all this out, and fight it, and post here - all while being terrified at certain points.
I'm cheering for you. Baby steps are my absolute specialty. Along with one step forward, one (or two) steps(s)back...oops...take a deep breath, try again. So, I'll join right in with you if that pace suits you sometimes.
You are going to do just fine, Falls. No matter how confused and discouraged you may get, I still see hope and a strong spirit, wanting to try and try and try, running through your posts. Have faith. - 10derHeart
Posted by gardenergirl on March 12, 2005, at 18:55:14
In reply to Re: Voc Rehab » fallsfall, posted by 10derHeart on March 12, 2005, at 17:36:32
Falls,
I'm so happy for you that it went well. And I'm impressed by your preparation. I think no matter how well it went, you would still be anxious about this issue. So be proud of yourself and enjoy and celebrate this big step. Take time in this moment without worrying about the next. The next step will come when you are ready.I'm so proud of you.
gg
This is the end of the thread.
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