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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by TamaraJ on February 16, 2005, at 23:24:34
In reply to Re: Freud anyone?, posted by daisym on February 16, 2005, at 23:10:53
If I really think about it, I realize that it comes from the fear and anxiety I would experience when my father would go into a rage. So, as long as I don't say or do anything to upset anyone, everything remains peaceful.
Tamara
> We've spent some time on anger and aggressive urges. I can barely tolerate the discussions. I shut down, like you described. My therapist pushed the subject once, telling me that I let my husband hold "all" the anger and I refused to feel any of it. He said this isn't uncommon for people who have had bad experiences with angry people. His opinion was that I was afraid of my aggressive feelings because I was afraid they would get out of control and hurt someone (him?).
>
> This is a very hard subject for me to think about. It isn't that I don't get angry, I just get flash anger and then it is gone. And I always feel bad. I used to say "anger is a waste of energy - it solves nothing." Of course my therapist's response is, "it is a legitimate feeling, not everything has to have a productive use -- does it?"
>
> Ummm...doesn't it?
>
>
> So, have you been able to figure out why this was so hard for you?
Posted by daisym on February 17, 2005, at 0:08:59
In reply to Re: Freud anyone? » daisym, posted by TamaraJ on February 16, 2005, at 23:24:34
I know this is why I have such issues with anger too. My dad used to explode over such little things and it was always a moving target. And then he would feel bad and be sorry...and that was worse.
I hate the whole cycle. It makes me nervous.
The most awful parts of my husband's illness are the medications that make him volatile and his anger and bitterness at being sick. A bad combination.
I've been asking a lot lately, "How did I find myself in this situation again." I don't have the answer yet.
Posted by daisym on February 17, 2005, at 0:11:51
In reply to Freud anyone?, posted by gardenergirl on February 16, 2005, at 15:26:15
I want to ask, you don't have to answer...
Have you thought about anger and sex together? Are your aggressive feelings connected to any sexual feelings - either wanting it or not wanting it?
I guess I have a hard time with all primal emotions.
Posted by TamaraJ on February 17, 2005, at 0:20:40
In reply to Re: Freud anyone? » TamaraJ, posted by daisym on February 17, 2005, at 0:08:59
> I know this is why I have such issues with anger too. My dad used to explode over such little things and it was always a moving target.
-- My dad was the exact same. Even my mom mentioning that the windows needed to be washed (not asking him to do it) at the dinner table, would set him off.
And then he would feel bad and be sorry...and that was worse.
-- It was rare that my father said he was sorry or displayed any remorse.
>
> I hate the whole cycle. It makes me nervous.-- Same here. There is no need for it.
> The most awful parts of my husband's illness are the medications that make him volatile and his anger and bitterness at being sick. A bad combination.
-- My heart goes out to you. I mean, it's hard enough to deal with volatile behaviour when all is right, or seems right, with our own worlds.
> I've been asking a lot lately, "How did I find myself in this situation again." I don't have the answer yet.-- Those answers are hard to come by sometimes. But, I think, the answers do come to us eventually - when we are ready.
Tamara
Posted by alexandra_k on February 17, 2005, at 0:23:59
In reply to Re: Freud anyone? » gardenergirl, posted by daisym on February 17, 2005, at 0:11:51
I get the flashes of anger - and then it is gone. I can do annoyance and the whole passive-agressive thing (which doesn't feel like anger) but I am frightened of the flashes and the intense feeling. Afraid I'll lose control like my Mother used to. I guess I used to inhibit my emotions / preferences as much as possible because it was when these differed from hers that she would fly off the handle. So I guess I am a bit phobic of the strong emotions in general.
Are they both about being afraid of losing control?
Posted by whirlpool on February 17, 2005, at 11:31:06
In reply to Freud anyone?, posted by gardenergirl on February 16, 2005, at 15:26:15
Gardenergirl-
I think that the more suppressed aggression one has, the harder it is to express any kind of aggression, due to the fear of losing control.
This may also be the case for people who are born with stronger drives to begin with.
Just my opinion.
Whirl.
Posted by sunny10 on February 17, 2005, at 11:33:36
In reply to Re: Freud anyone?, posted by alexandra_k on February 17, 2005, at 0:23:59
here's a scary one for you guys... maybe you can help me...
I used to flee from all types of confrontation right down to only asking for a raise ONCE in the last 19 years that I've been working fulltime (and that one time I cried- how embarrassing).
My father used to hit me anytime I disagreed with him- even if the topic was brought as a debate. It started when I was 10. Since then, I learned not to have my own opinions (I STILL haven't found a hobby other than reading- which, let's face it, is just sitting quietly, saying nothing) with any males. I debated freely with females- and they think I do it too much, probably because they are an "outlet" at this point.
So enter therapy... I learn that I MUST have my own opinions, find my own hobbies, stick up for myself because my "self" is just as important as the other person's "self". I am practicing this.
So my SO and I debate. The big problem is that when he debates, he is big on pointing his finger in my face and leaning in real close to my face (classic intimidation tactics). It has gotten so bad a couple of times that I have completely freaked out. The first time I ran and hid upstairs behind a locked door. The second time, though, I was lying on the couch and he came up on me while I was supine and got in my face. I asked him to back up, my hands were palms forward, then PUSHING him away, then when he didn't stop, I ended up kicking out at him as he advanced.So now I have "learned to defend myself", but he considered himself to be attacked because I was the only one that actually struck a blow!
We have talked about it since, and decided on a code word to use to let him know that I am scared, not "trying to win the argument". But he is only one person. How do I deal with the rest of the world now???? In trying to cure myself of fear of confrontation, I am now a physical attacker myself? How the heck did this happen? I don't want to be that person!
(Brought up a can of worms, hunh, gg???!!!???)
thanks for listening at least,
sunny10
Posted by Susan47 on February 17, 2005, at 12:14:25
In reply to Re: Freud anyone? » gardenergirl, posted by whirlpool on February 17, 2005, at 11:31:06
That makes a lot of sense. I wonder if it's true.
Posted by Susan47 on February 17, 2005, at 12:22:11
In reply to Re: Freud anyone?, posted by sunny10 on February 17, 2005, at 11:33:36
And here I thought you had this wonderful SO, and I suppose you do, but it sounds like you're with someone who pretty much was doing the same thing your father did to you; he's doing it in another form. Sunny kicking out at him was your last resort, don't you see that? He should not be making you feel guilty or bad for that. He should be looking at what he did that brought you to that point because it sounds like you're not normally like that. I hope he's changing his behaviour and the code is working. You're not "that person". ((Sunny))
Posted by sunny10 on February 17, 2005, at 12:38:44
In reply to Re: Freud anyone? » sunny10, posted by Susan47 on February 17, 2005, at 12:22:11
actually, he's a great SO BECAUSE he admits to having been just as responsible as I in the final analyis, thus the code word! And the code word should only need to be used when he forgets that he is working on not being intimidating in the first place!
I have come to the conclusion that no one is PERFECT. The closest any of us can come to perfection is TRYING to the the best person we can be.
We make a good couple BECAUSE we are working on our own issues and freely admit it and try to help the other person.
But, as I said, he is only one person- I am a little afraid of what I might do if someone else frightens me...
Posted by alexandra_k on February 18, 2005, at 2:26:44
In reply to Freud anyone?, posted by gardenergirl on February 16, 2005, at 15:26:15
How are you doing???
You okay???
Posted by gardenergirl on February 18, 2005, at 7:56:29
In reply to Re: Freud anyone? » gardenergirl, posted by alexandra_k on February 18, 2005, at 2:26:44
I've been much busier at work the last few days, and I am making a conscious effort to spend time with my husband in the evenings rather than have us be in separate areas of the house. So I have not had as much time online.
I appreciate all your thoughts and replies. I've got stuff to say...lots, actually. I should have more time this weekend to catch up on posts.
Thanks for asking, alexandra.
Take care everyone. Be back soon.
gg
Posted by TamaraJ on February 18, 2005, at 15:29:28
In reply to Re: Freud anyone?, posted by sunny10 on February 17, 2005, at 11:33:36
> here's a scary one for you guys... maybe you can help me...
>
> I used to flee from all types of confrontation right down to only asking for a raise ONCE in the last 19 years that I've been working fulltime (and that one time I cried- how embarrassing).-- Oh my God. I can so relate to that! I have worked in the same place for years, have a great, fair and understanding boss, and I am always nervous (almost petrified) to ask for a day off. I just get panicky inside going in and asking for something for myself. And, forget about boundaries. Even when I do get time off, the office calls me and calls me and calls me. And, I don't speak up. Yet, I encourage my staff to be open about their needs, wants and pet peeves. Oh well. Maybe I'll learn one day.
Tamara
Posted by alexandra_k on February 18, 2005, at 16:00:40
In reply to Sorry everyone » alexandra_k, posted by gardenergirl on February 18, 2005, at 7:56:29
Just wanted to check that you are okay.
Glad you are :-)
Posted by gardenergirl on February 19, 2005, at 9:56:20
In reply to Re: Freud anyone? » gardenergirl, posted by TamaraJ on February 16, 2005, at 16:06:15
> I have the same feelings as you. On the issue of aggression, I have an intense fear of aggressive behaviour, and go to great lengths to avoid situations where confrontation is taking place or which may lead to raised voices and aggressive behaviour.
Oh, me too. I hate conflict. Even when I know I am right, I have a hard time being assertive and confronting it directly. I tend to do nothing, or use humor to deflect. And then of course I feel resentment because I don't get what I need. Grrrr.
>I am not so much afraid of whether I will become aggressive (because I never have), but rather whether others will.
You know, this reminds me of a situation when a student in a class I was teaching became quite confrontational (right in my face yelling) in front of the whole class. I actually handled it pretty calmly and stayed focused on his behavior. But it was very scary. In thinking about how I managed to handle that but have so much trouble in other situations, I think it's because I really didn't care if he liked me or not. He was clearly in the wrong, and was just trying to push my buttons. But he was a HUGE biker type guy! yikes!
I think that I worry about being aggressive or even assertive because I worry about how others will respond and what they will think of me. What others will think is an issue that keeps coming back up. I think it's because my dad was so socially conscious. And good children, especially "good little girls" do not "misbehave".
Thanks for stimulating my thinking on this. I feel less blocked.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on February 19, 2005, at 9:59:15
In reply to Re: Freud anyone?, posted by daisym on February 16, 2005, at 23:10:53
Daisy,
I don't get flash anger. I think I tend to steam for awhile, and if I talk to others about it, it often makes it continue rather than burn out. It's still a hard topic for me, but I am thinking about the "good girl" issue, and maybe it just doesn't feel proper for me to be assertive and express anger directly. And of course there's the wanting people not to be upset with me. Because if they are, I tend to take that too personally versus look at their issues or perhaps look at just my behavior that may have caused it versus my "being".Still confused, though. Ugghers.
Thanks for your thoughts.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on February 19, 2005, at 10:00:55
In reply to Re: Freud anyone? » gardenergirl, posted by alexandra_k on February 16, 2005, at 23:18:27
Oh lordy do I ever get passive-aggressive. You hit it on the head. I am much more likely to be indirect than direct. It gives me some sense of satisfaction, but I suppose like anything avoided, it's a short term solution with long term consequences.
And thanks for the eros reminder. Funny how I could not remember that at all. Seems so simple now. Hmmm
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on February 19, 2005, at 10:08:03
In reply to Re: Freud anyone? » gardenergirl, posted by daisym on February 17, 2005, at 0:11:51
That's a very good question. In the session, the two were connected. Actually, it made me cringe some of the connections my T made. (ewwwww kinda feeling). I have trouble with primal emotions, too. But I never used to have trouble about sex. I actually once had a very healthy sex life with an ex. That gg seems to have gone into hiding or disappeared entirely. When my T asked what happened, of course I remembered (I never forget, but I never think about unless asked) being date-raped. And then going into a bit of a tail spin afterwards. It's a time in my life that I feel ashamed about, but if I look at it objectively, it makes a lot of sense why. But the feeling is stronger than the rational approach. (Damn feelings!).
So anyway, we were talking in the session about my fear about aggressive acts and I mentioned "intruders" to my home. Um, you can make some connections there to more personal intrusions. And given that for a number of mechanical reasons, sex is initially painful for me (wish I hadn't skipped the thread about that earlier)...well I seem to think of sex as an intrusion, or (gasp) even a very personal violation. UGH! I really really hate that I think that way now. It's so not how I used to be. And it means there is quite a lot of baggage in the bed with me.
sigh, I think it's moving up higher on the list of issues to address, though
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on February 19, 2005, at 10:13:03
In reply to Re: Freud anyone?, posted by alexandra_k on February 17, 2005, at 0:23:59
> So I guess I am a bit phobic of the strong emotions in general.
>
> Are they both about being afraid of losing control?
Good question. I suppose it could be. I do wonder, now that you talk about how strong both these emotions are or at least can be, if it's my emotional sensitivity that is part of it. Because what may feel like a 50 percent intense emotion to someone else feels like 75 or higher to me a lot of the time. And one can only take so much intensity. My T is only now really understanding this about me. It's exhausting sometimes.But I remember a time when I got very very angry with my ex-fiance. I started screaming at him and throwing my shoes at him. Not really that horrible, no harm no foul, right? But it was so foreign to my sense of self, it scared me and appalled me. I HATED that he "brought that out in me." Of course, now I can see that he could not bring something out that was not always there. But yuck. Not the way I typically behave. I am a mostly proper lady. (cept when I sit cross-legged on top of the desk...I like to perch).
Ugh. Why is this so hard and complex?
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on February 19, 2005, at 10:16:05
In reply to Re: Freud anyone? » gardenergirl, posted by whirlpool on February 17, 2005, at 11:31:06
> Gardenergirl-
> I think that the more suppressed aggression one has, the harder it is to express any kind of aggression, due to the fear of losing control.
> This may also be the case for people who are born with stronger drives to begin with.
> Just my opinion.
> Whirl.
>I think that is an excellent insight. Scary to think I might have a stronger drive there. But now that I think about it, when I was a first year student in psychology, we had to take the personality tests ourselves that we were learning to administer. I was kind of appalled at the result on one. It was the highest on the scale that reflects a lot of anger issues. It's actually called "psychopathic deviate", which is a horrible name for it. If you look at the content of it, it's much easier to be empathic about this scale, but the name is SO off-putting...
Oh lordy, now I think I've shared too much. :)
gg
Posted by Dinah on February 19, 2005, at 10:18:37
In reply to Re: Freud anyone? » TamaraJ, posted by gardenergirl on February 19, 2005, at 9:56:20
I don't mind being assertive. I don't always like the fallout from it. But I always figured I'd be like Abraham and argue with God himself if I thought he was wrong. :) I guess that's because *my* father, and my mother too, didn't really mind my arguing with them. If I had a good argument, I could even change their minds.
Boy, that early training really holds.
But anger I can't handle at all. My own or other people's. It hurts.
Not a great combination, I suppose. lol.
Posted by gardenergirl on February 19, 2005, at 10:21:13
In reply to Re: Freud anyone?, posted by sunny10 on February 17, 2005, at 11:33:36
Oh, I think this issues is always a can of worms.
I think in the scenario you described, which sounds a bit yucky, btw (I had the same reaction as you just reading it) that you were not really the aggressor. He invaded your space--crossed a boundary. So your reaction was a defense of that. I'm glad you are practicing debating with your SO. He sounds like a bit of a challenge due to his behavior. Can you talk to him about his aggressive behavior? Or is he trying to make it hard to give you good practice?
And about others, hmmm. I guess if you get someone literally in your face like that...well, one thing I have used is to start to speak even quieter and calmer. The louder and more aggressive they get, the calmer I get. But this only works if I am not emotionally enaged, of course. I'm thinking of times when I worked in retail long ago and had a poopy customer. Or the teaching episode I described in a post above.
You get me riled up personally and when I have an emotional tie to you, watch out! The tears will flow, because I am a serious cryer. I HATE that too.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on February 19, 2005, at 10:24:53
In reply to Re: Freud anyone? » sunny10, posted by gardenergirl on February 19, 2005, at 10:21:13
And you know what? I have been busy, and I have been spending more time with the hubby. But I bet I was avoiding the topic. Still blocked and repressed.
And we really haven't gotten into the sex part. Yuck, it's complex. I almost thought of three threads..one for the process issue of realizing how blocked I was within the session. That stuff fascinates me. Two could be for the aggressive stuff. And three for the sex stuff. But it's all tangled up in me. Yuck.
Do I deconstruct or try to see the connections as a whole?
sigh
gg
Posted by TamaraJ on February 19, 2005, at 10:35:25
In reply to Re: Freud anyone? » sunny10, posted by gardenergirl on February 19, 2005, at 10:21:13
I just wanted to share this experience. My first full-time job I worked with a group of marine surveyors at the Coast Guard. Anyway, one of the guys I worked with and report to (but not my immediate boss) was a real yeller - always flying off the handle. I had been working there about 6 months and was still in my extremely shy, conversations to a minimum adjustment phase (which is normal for me, it usually takes me a good while to be comfortable and open up in any situation). Anyway, a mistake was made while this guy was away on business and it caused him some embarrassment (in the grand scheme of things, it was small stuff). So, he starts in on one of his rants, yelling, pointing fingers, at the guy who was taking care of things while he was away and me. I was freaking. Not only was all this taking place out in the open for everyone to hear, but I was still new and extremely introverted and nervous about my new environment (I didn't want ANYTHING to draw attention to me). So, I am sitting there shaking inside and getting dangerously close to losing my lunch and all of a sudden I burst out laughing - I became almost hysterical. This guy stops yelling and looks at me and asks me what is so funny. In a quivering voice, still trying to avoid getting sick to my stomach, I say something like - you are, carrying on like this in front of people, it's embarrassing. I was sure I was in for a tongue lashing and that he would perhaps have the boots put to me. Not the case. From that point on, he treated me with such respect and kindness. He brought me gifts from his international trips, he and his wife gave me christmas and birthday gifts, he shared parts of his life with me (including worries about his wife's cancer). What a switch.
Tamara
Posted by sunny10 on February 22, 2005, at 10:54:06
In reply to Re: Freud anyone? » sunny10, posted by gardenergirl on February 19, 2005, at 10:21:13
he has admitted that it is not necessary to use physical intimidation tactics when dealing with me and has promised to work on it.
The last episode was Christmas Eve night, so it is going pretty well so far...it used to happy about once a week or so (not as bad as the situation that I described- but he had used those tactics often, before- I have just left the room every time before... I haven't even had to leave the room since that last episode... so he is working on it!)
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