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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by EmmyS on April 15, 2004, at 18:48:04
In reply to Re: Is the attraction mutual?, posted by BigFish on April 15, 2004, at 18:13:32
From now on, please refer to me as Mother Hen Emily. :-)
Posted by Fallen4MyT on April 15, 2004, at 19:26:44
In reply to Re: Is the attraction mutual? » Fallen4MyT, posted by BigFish on April 15, 2004, at 15:18:17
Hey BigFish :) Thanks for not dissing my T...I do not care if he is unethical or any of that and like yourself and well aware of transferance and all it implies. It simply isn't the case for me, even my T said so :) I do think sometimes you can love or be in love with a client or T and NOT have it be transferance. For me I am a big girl and am oddly stable enough for the rough waters that COULD come up when/if we cross anymore lines....and can weather it I feel as I have had a broken heart in the past (say it came to that) and may again in the future for ANYONE. I AM willing to go ALL the way with this and my T...I am waiting on his bigger move if you get my drift. I guess what you need to ask yourself is can you take whatever comes no matter what? I know I can. I am also ready to be open to a good long lasting relationship with him. Many do get hurt in these situations sadly and many go on to become Mrs T...I have known of some cases. YOU had a opening with him on the friend and love deal..Can you ask for him to expound on that?? Can you toss out you care for him??? There is so much I could say and share but I feel like a target on the boards because I have a more relaxed attitude on this subject. I do not debate the issue with well meaning people who are RIGHT in MANY though not MY case....so I say little and am to be honest happy with my budding relationship with my T...I do know I am shy and missed a few moves ...gimme time and :) How about you? You less shy?
Posted by joslynn on April 16, 2004, at 9:23:46
In reply to Re: Is the attraction mutual? » BigFish, posted by Fallen4MyT on April 15, 2004, at 19:26:44
Personally, I don't think I would want to be a Mrs. T in those situations. I would always wonder, if he could not honor the ethics of his own profession (by not coming on to a patient), then how will he honor the marriage vows? When he is with an attractive client, is he going to make overtures to her like he did with me when I was a client? I would always wonder about that. Also, if it came out how/when the relationship w/ me started, he could lose his career.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on April 16, 2004, at 10:24:25
In reply to Re: Is the attraction mutual?, posted by joslynn on April 16, 2004, at 9:23:46
For me if I became Mrs T I would have done so after the two year period they have thus he would still have his job. As to looking over my back for other women that I believe holds in any and ALL relationships...will they cheat, will they go with someone more attracrtive more this or that. I guess I am too solid in my self esteem to worry on that. But again I know the man I am talking about and many T's who decide tio cross well your are right SOME can and will use people and mis-use them. My situation and I say this not because I am naive but because not every person fits every mold. I know the person I am speaking of so I will and do feel safe with this :)
> Personally, I don't think I would want to be a Mrs. T in those situations. I would always wonder, if he could not honor the ethics of his own profession (by not coming on to a patient), then how will he honor the marriage vows? When he is with an attractive client, is he going to make overtures to her like he did with me when I was a client? I would always wonder about that. Also, if it came out how/when the relationship w/ me started, he could lose his career.
>
>
>
Posted by terrics on April 16, 2004, at 18:12:23
In reply to Is the attraction mutual?, posted by BigFish on April 13, 2004, at 17:30:22
I think It is mutual, but probably not sexual. terrics
Posted by BigFish on April 16, 2004, at 20:40:22
In reply to Re: Is the attraction mutual?, posted by Fallen4MyT on April 16, 2004, at 10:24:25
>>As to looking over my back for other women that I believe holds in any and ALL relationships...will they cheat, will they go with someone more attracrtive more this or that.
Yeah, that's anywhere and everywhere. I think the strong reaction people have to this topic is due to the exploitation that can and does occur in many cases. If, for example, someone has had a break with reality or has gone to a therapist for help dealing with a traumatic event, then a therapist making a move on them is taking advantage of a vulnerable person. That's pretty sick. However, it is possible to have two consenting adults participating in the therapist/patient relationship. It's not just the patient having emotional reactions in the relationship. It's a two way street. Therapists are people and susceptible to falling in love just like anyone else. The heart knows no reason. Here's an interesting page on John Haule's work...
Posted by BigFish on April 16, 2004, at 20:52:02
In reply to Re: Is the attraction mutual? » BigFish, posted by Fallen4MyT on April 15, 2004, at 19:26:44
>YOU had a opening with him on the friend and love deal..Can you ask for him to expound on that?? Can you toss out you care for him???
I'm so shy on the topic of attraction. I'm trying to get up the nerve... Don't know quite what to do!
Posted by Pfinstegg on April 18, 2004, at 13:10:06
In reply to Re: Is the attraction mutual?, posted by Fallen4MyT on April 16, 2004, at 10:24:25
Do you think something will really happen with him? That is just mind-blowing for someone like me who is not in a situation remotely like that. Would you go so far as to terminate to get started on the two-year period?
Posted by Fallen4MyT on April 22, 2004, at 0:26:33
In reply to Re: Is the attraction mutual?, posted by BigFish on April 16, 2004, at 20:52:02
That shy deal held me back a lot too still can but you can talk in a sly not shy way and say how frustrated you are when you want a man...and cannot say it, how you hope he will make it easier for you...worked for me :D
Posted by Fallen4MyT on April 22, 2004, at 0:29:21
In reply to Re: Is the attraction mutual? » Fallen4MyT, posted by Pfinstegg on April 18, 2004, at 13:10:06
Lol P....YES...AND YES. :D It is more so a when as to will we SUPER :D
> Do you think something will really happen with him? That is just mind-blowing for someone like me who is not in a situation remotely like that. Would you go so far as to terminate to get started on the two-year period?
Posted by Pfinstegg on April 22, 2004, at 10:13:27
In reply to Re: Is the attraction mutual? » Pfinstegg, posted by Fallen4MyT on April 22, 2004, at 0:29:21
This is just amazing! From what you've said previously, you have done a lot a good therapeutic work with him, also, and are feeling much better. Do you feel well now, or would you want additional therapy, perhaps from someone else, for your own issues? Do you worry at all that the therapeutic encounter intensifies love and sexual feelings tremendously, sometimes, for both people - and that they might wane in an ordinary setting?
Posted by BigFish on April 22, 2004, at 16:13:05
In reply to Re: Is the attraction mutual? » BigFish, posted by Fallen4MyT on April 22, 2004, at 0:26:33
Thanks for the idea, Fallen4MyT. I just need to get up my courage... There have been openings to bring it up and I'm so nervous that I don't see them until I reflect on our appointments. Not too keen on the idea of rejection, either.
> That shy deal held me back a lot too still can but you can talk in a sly not shy way and say how frustrated you are when you want a man...and cannot say it, how you hope he will make it easier for you...worked for me :D
Posted by Fallen4MyT on April 26, 2004, at 1:03:41
In reply to Re: Is the attraction mutual? » Fallen4MyT, posted by Pfinstegg on April 22, 2004, at 10:13:27
I do not think I would seek additional therapy...I will never be what we think of as "well" because of my past but I am OK for ME...if that makes sense...so no I would not see anyone else....and well I always think no matter what, a relationship is always at the high point of the rollercoaster...in the beginning..I really dont think I will/do/would feel the relationship is more intense cause he is my T...I am not in denial either I just feel about him as I have others I have been in love with and if it ends badly so be it it won't be the first or last time I didnt get a fairybook ending...We are both old enough to deal with the loss should it come to pass. I am simply in love with a man who happens to be my T..,he could have been my car mechainic and I would feel the same.
> This is just amazing! From what you've said previously, you have done a lot a good therapeutic work with him, also, and are feeling much better. Do you feel well now, or would you want additional therapy, perhaps from someone else, for your own issues? Do you worry at all that the therapeutic encounter intensifies love and sexual feelings tremendously, sometimes, for both people - and that they might wane in an ordinary setting?
Posted by shadows721 on April 26, 2004, at 20:20:05
In reply to Is the attraction mutual?, posted by BigFish on April 13, 2004, at 17:30:22
I know I am going to be jumped on about this. Yes, it's human nature to be "attracted" to another person. However, in the t setting, no one should cross the boundary line. Clients get obsessed with their t with their own self created fantasy. If a t responds, that's considered abuse. A client is considered vunerable to a t. They share their most personal information. If a t says they were in love with me, I would get out of the treatment.
I saw a t do this in an outpatient clinic setting with several female clients. He would outright flirt with them. Interesting enough, none of the clients reported him. I guess they thought they were the "only" ones. I confronted one of the women. She told me how wonderful this guy was and that she was "in love" with him. I said, "yeah, you and 4 other women here." It was outright abuse in my eyes. He was taking advantage of these women with sex abuse history. I reported this joker and he was gone.
There are abusers in every field. Therapy isn't any different. My brother was in therapy and his t asked him out on a date. Again, that's totally inappropriate behavior. Unfortunately, he never went back to therapy. Perpetrators are infact attracted to the vunerable.
I have heard about therapist and clients having sex in their "so called" therapy sessions. Again, it was people who were vunerable. Don't fool yourselves. This is abuse in a very ugly way.
If a therapist is saying he is in love or attracted to a patient, he has crossed the line. He isn't being a therapist anymore. They need to pull themselves out of this setting. It's not right, but there are many of them out there. If they tell you that, how many other vunerable clients do you think they will do this too? Stop this cycle of abuse to yourself and others.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on April 26, 2004, at 20:27:50
In reply to Getting involved mutally isn't therapy. It's abuse, posted by shadows721 on April 26, 2004, at 20:20:05
No jumping on you lol but some people after the 2 year waiting period for a psychologist have married their T, so I personally do not agree. I do not see things in black and white I see a lot of gray in this area..Just my opinion
Posted by toomuchpain on April 26, 2004, at 21:30:48
In reply to Getting involved mutally isn't therapy. It's abuse, posted by shadows721 on April 26, 2004, at 20:20:05
i cant say i agree totally ... therapist are normal people too ... u can not say it is abuse .. i have just been through alot of stuff with my former t and i still would not call it abuse ... i mean ..yes it is wrong if they do it over and ver again but a one time thing soemtimes people make mistakes ... that is just my opinion ... but i would have to say i dont agree with u ...
Posted by shadows721 on April 26, 2004, at 22:03:30
In reply to Re: Getting involved mutally isn't therapy. It's abuse, posted by toomuchpain on April 26, 2004, at 21:30:48
How would you define crossing boundaries in therapy?
Posted by joslynn on April 27, 2004, at 8:17:36
In reply to Re: I think this is a good topic, posted by shadows721 on April 26, 2004, at 22:03:30
I am glad you said something, I agree but could not find the words that you did to express it.
(Also, my understanding of the 2-year waiting period does not mean that you have an affair with a patient while seeing them, but wait 2 years to marry them. I thought it meant, you have to wait 2 years to even date, and even then, it's questionable.)
Pdocs can never get involved with patients according to the American Psychiatric Association and I do not know the rules for social workers.
It is to protect us. It is not about them.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on April 27, 2004, at 10:06:15
In reply to Shadow, I agree w/ you, posted by joslynn on April 27, 2004, at 8:17:36
I did state in my post above AFTER the two year waiting period. Its less restrictive for social workers....Also some, many do go on to marry a client....either after that time or post job...they are human and where you meet cannot always be predicted. I respect all opinions I just do not agree wirh this one
> I am glad you said something, I agree but could not find the words that you did to express it.
>
> (Also, my understanding of the 2-year waiting period does not mean that you have an affair with a patient while seeing them, but wait 2 years to marry them. I thought it meant, you have to wait 2 years to even date, and even then, it's questionable.)
>
> Pdocs can never get involved with patients according to the American Psychiatric Association and I do not know the rules for social workers.
>
> It is to protect us. It is not about them.
Posted by shadows721 on April 27, 2004, at 18:49:30
In reply to Shadow, I agree w/ you, posted by joslynn on April 27, 2004, at 8:17:36
As I thought, my t stated that it is not ethical for a therapist to start having a relationship with the client. Also, they stated in school they were informed that it is something that some people feel in therapy. When they do, they need to discuss it openly with the t. Their issues may get addressed if this keeps going on in their mind. In addition, if a t starts to have feelings for the client and wants a relationship, they need to transfer the client to another therapist. End result, the client has the most to loose in this situation.
The very reason that we go into therapy is because we have issues that need to be addressed. The t is in power position and can in this case take advantage of the client.
It is no coincidence that my post of about boundary issues wasn't answered. Effective therapy is based around healthy boundaries. I have met people in my life who were so abused by their families of origin that they couldn't even define their own boundaries. Boundaries are also about empowerment.
I didn't write this to condemn. I wrote it out of caring. I can't stand for people to get hurt.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on April 27, 2004, at 19:26:38
In reply to I got info on this from my t today, posted by shadows721 on April 27, 2004, at 18:49:30
Shadow I did not reply to you on boundaries because that is what they are....boundaries set up by one or both of you...IF both of you agree and its mutual then it THAT boundary or line drawn and that boundary could have a wide circle...I see what you posted on what your T said and that IS true however it is also true that they CAN date you..or marry you 2 plus years AFTER therapy ends...so I didnt reply as not to continue to debate a issues we made our collective points on.
> As I thought, my t stated that it is not ethical for a therapist to start having a relationship with the client. Also, they stated in school they were informed that it is something that some people feel in therapy. When they do, they need to discuss it openly with the t. Their issues may get addressed if this keeps going on in their mind. In addition, if a t starts to have feelings for the client and wants a relationship, they need to transfer the client to another therapist. End result, the client has the most to loose in this situation.
>
> The very reason that we go into therapy is because we have issues that need to be addressed. The t is in power position and can in this case take advantage of the client.
>
> It is no coincidence that my post of about boundary issues wasn't answered. Effective therapy is based around healthy boundaries. I have met people in my life who were so abused by their families of origin that they couldn't even define their own boundaries. Boundaries are also about empowerment.
>
> I didn't write this to condemn. I wrote it out of caring. I can't stand for people to get hurt.
>
>
Posted by pinkeye on April 27, 2004, at 20:10:57
In reply to Re: I got info on this from my t today, posted by Fallen4MyT on April 27, 2004, at 19:26:38
Hi Fallsfall,
I really appreciate your standing. Though, however there is something I need to caution you about. I was just like you, thinking that I would be willing to develop a relationship with my therapist after a few years, but now I am rethinking my stand. Mainly because, the relationship is truly a major power imbalanace.When I think what I really like about him, it is mostly about how much he cares for me. But in reality that will not be the case. In reality, he cannot care as much as he does in the therapy room. And frankly it is a quite selfish of me to try to say I love my therapist, when I don't know anything about him - All I am saying really when I say I love him is that I love his caring.
For real love, there needs to be selfless caring on both ends and I believe cannot develop when there is a major power imbalance. Otherwise, it is just a matter of time before the power imbalance strikes you.
And howmuchever you try, it is not going to be an equal relationship. And it is bad for both of you. You will most likely get hurt.. and your therpaist will too. Of course it is still ok to enter into a relationship knowing this fully, but I am just warning you the risks of it breaking are way too high.
Pinkeye.
Posted by joslynn on April 28, 2004, at 13:01:45
In reply to Re: Fallsfall, posted by pinkeye on April 27, 2004, at 20:10:57
I think that a lot of us come to therapy partly because we have not definied healthy boundaries between ourselves and other people, or even between ourselves and our thoughts, if that makes sense. So, I feel like in the professional relationship, we come there with a vulnerability about boundaries, even if we don't see it. I think it is the T's job to see our vulnerabilities and protect them.
Posted by shadows721 on April 28, 2004, at 17:39:51
In reply to Boundaries, posted by joslynn on April 28, 2004, at 13:01:45
I agree with you about the boundary issues. I believe that as clients we are very vunerable. We have usually been a victim of something or someone. We reply that old pain over and over again with new people and new situations. It's leads to the same pain over and over again. That's what therapy is for. It helps us see what we are doing to ourselves. For example, choosing someone unconsciously that will replay that old pain. It's familiar territory, but familiar is not good. It's keeps us from learning and having freedom from our old pain. How can we learn if we keep allowing someone to abuse us, abuse ourselves, or abusing others?
We don't choose people in our lives consciously. Most so called "attractions" are really a bound with a past pain. If we take a chance to change, we can look deeply into our relationships and ask how are they resembling my past pain? What is there in this for me to really see about myself? After all, all that is in front of me in my life is of my choosing. No one put me here but me. Am I attracted to unavailable people to perpetuate more pain, because I feel I really deserve no true love? Am I starting to like myself or am I still stuck in the pain?
Posted by crushedout on April 29, 2004, at 8:45:04
In reply to Is the attraction mutual?, posted by BigFish on April 13, 2004, at 17:30:22
Hi. I'm jumping in very late and I have to admit I haven't read this whole thread yet.
I got the feeling for awhile that the attraction to my T might be mutual, from her flirting, from stuff she said. When I finally brought up that I was wondering about it, she admitted to me that it was.
I'm not sure if that was a good idea. It's been hard for me. It's very frustrating and tantalizing, and I think it may also inhibit me from talking openly about some stuff, but on the other hand, I respected her honesty, and since I was already aware of it, it was validating for me to hear it. I was also so happy at the time to know it, although I think I actually got depressed afterwards. Sounds paradoxical/illogical, I know. How can you be happy and depressed at the same time.
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