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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Rigby on January 16, 2004, at 11:34:56
I had this thought about transference: in the end, doesn't it pretty much boil down to unmet needs?
The therapist--whether it be a good or bad kind of transference, becomes something we need or feel we've needed? In my case, basically I was abandoned and left with a highly abusive (and crazed) brother. So here I am now stuck with huge childhood needs that went unmet. How wouldn't someone *not* experience transference when Pandora's box is opened (through therapy, through asking questions and introspection?) All of a sudden you're aware of what's been missing. What's been missing may mean a host of things. But you become aware and the first target to meet those needs? The person sitting across from you in therapy.
So. How do we move on from transference? I sure as heck don't like the feeling of extreme dependence upon someone I don't really know, can never really know and have to pay for.
I think for me what might be working (not there yet but trying) is to stop focusing on the *therapist* and to start looking at the dynamics being played out, why they're there and ultimately, by doing so, moving past them. I think then, when we've discovered *what* we need and *why*, our therapy may be able to come to a positive ending with fulfilling closure. It's almost like I have to force myself out of thinking about the actual therapist and push the thoughts back onto me, my past and what happened to make things so twitchy in my dynamic with my therapist. It's work. But it seems to help moving things along.
Dunno. More than anything I'm just thinking out loud. What do you guys think?
Posted by antigua on January 16, 2004, at 12:11:26
In reply to Moving Past Transference, posted by Rigby on January 16, 2004, at 11:34:56
You've described my goal very well. I have had enough years of therapy and transference issues to know that when my dependence on my T or a particular male authority figure begins to consume me, then it's time for me to look at who/what is really behind it. I never have to look very far; it's always one of my parents. But it's hard to take the other "person" out of the equation and focus on yourself. For me, at times, it was much easier to obsess about that other person. I don't really have that luxury anymore because I know what it means now. It kind of took the fun (but also the agony, I must admit) out of the intense feelings.
Thanks for the thoughts. I sincerely hope that you find your way. My T told me once that people who have unmet needs usually approach life two ways: one, they spend their whole life trying to meet those needs through the same people who didn't meet their needs in the first place (it's just not going to happen); or two, they find other fulfilling, internal ways to meet those needs. Recognizing that we have those unmet needs, and being able to identify them, is a huge first step. And yes, the goal would be to have the needs met in a healthy way and finally to end therapy.
Thanks for the post; it made me think.
antigua
Posted by Rigby on January 16, 2004, at 13:41:04
In reply to Re: Moving Past Transference » Rigby, posted by antigua on January 16, 2004, at 12:11:26
Hi Antigua,
Thanks for your post. I guess my goal has been, for a while now, to leave therapy feeling really "clean." I see now that doing so will require confronting transference and working through the deepest issues. I discussed this with my therapist--she strongly believes I can leave, clean and healthy and in fact could leave now and do fine--but she senses, and she's right, that I'm not ready yet. That I want more.
I asked how long it would take for me to feel good and complete and clean about leaving but she wouldn't commit to a timeframe but I think if I'm focused it won't be too, too much longer and I'm sure as heck willing to go for another year if I can feel even better than I'm feeling now (and now is pretty great!)
How long have you been in therapy? Do you see it as long-termish or are you working towards an end-goal?
Rigby
Posted by DaisyM on January 16, 2004, at 13:42:50
In reply to Re: Moving Past Transference » Rigby, posted by antigua on January 16, 2004, at 12:11:26
I find that recognizing that I have needs has been one of the hardest parts of this. Since I didn't know I had them, they didn't feel unmet. Now, they feel too big for anyone to handle which explains alot about why I have always been so self-sufficient. (that, coupled with past experiences).
I actually think my Therapist in some ways is trying to encourage a transference, or at least a more secure dependency because I let him get close and then I "run" back inside myself. We've many times had the "but this relationship ends, so why would I want to do this to myself" conversation. He always responds with a very honest, "yes, this ends. But for now I'm here to support you and not fail you, (like everyone else in one way or another) and we won't end until you are ready."
I'm also aware that he continually finds areas where he sees friends, family, etc. offering support of some kind and he points it out and encourages me to recognize it or take it. So I think he is trying to expand my list of people to trust for me. I can see how having someone listen and accept what you feel could result in you building trust and trying it again.
I think though that the intense support offered makes me more lonely in my "real" life until I feel brave enough to open up to someone about all of this. That is one of those unmet needs I wish I had never become aware of.
Posted by antigua on January 16, 2004, at 14:21:03
In reply to Re: Moving Past Transference » antigua, posted by Rigby on January 16, 2004, at 13:41:04
Rigby, you don't even want to know how long. I believe there is an end point but I still don't know when it is. All I know is that it is a lot closer than when I started. I can "see" the ending, but I don't feel it yet. Therapists, or at least psychodynamic ones, never want to tell you how long it will take--they never know what will come up or what will set you off.
good luck,
antigua
Posted by lookdownfish on January 16, 2004, at 14:48:07
In reply to Moving Past Transference, posted by Rigby on January 16, 2004, at 11:34:56
Rigby, I found your post very helpful and insightful. I'm too messed up today to add anything else, but thanks.
Posted by Asya on January 16, 2004, at 17:24:43
In reply to Re: Moving Past Transference » Rigby, posted by lookdownfish on January 16, 2004, at 14:48:07
Rigby,
Your post was very clear and thought-provoking. I agree with you 100% about not focusing so much on the therapist.
Posted by crushedout on January 16, 2004, at 17:36:29
In reply to Moving Past Transference, posted by Rigby on January 16, 2004, at 11:34:56
Sounds pretty brilliant. Although I'm still not entirely clear on how you move past it. Especially when I've never met anyone else in the whole world who meets my needs so well. I gotta think on it some more.
Posted by Dinah on January 16, 2004, at 17:40:23
In reply to Re: Moving Past Transference » Rigby, posted by antigua on January 16, 2004, at 14:21:03
I don't want an end point. My therapist and I were talking today about Elle's pdoc telling her that therapy wouldn't last because she didn't like to be pushed. But that I don't like to be pushed either and that not only have I been there going on 9 years, but he can't get rid of me. And he laughed and said "not without serious repercussions anyway" and then hastened to say that he wasn't trying to get rid of me. It made me feel kind of good though that he does know the dangers of my attachment. I'm never quite sure if he really gets it.
Why would anyone *want* to end therapy?
Posted by antigua on January 16, 2004, at 18:43:07
In reply to Re: Moving Past Transference, posted by Dinah on January 16, 2004, at 17:40:23
I can definitely see wanting to end therapy. And I LOVE my therapist. It's just so very, very painful for me and I would like to live w/o that pain one day. Unless (or until) she dies, I know I could call my T at any point in the future, either just to check in and say hi or to have her help me w/a short-term problem. I truly look forward to the day that I'm finished w/therapy.
antigua
Posted by Karen_kay on January 16, 2004, at 19:26:27
In reply to Re: Moving Past Transference » Dinah, posted by antigua on January 16, 2004, at 18:43:07
What??? My therapist won't die. Now, I realize that my therapist is part human, but I don't think he will ever die. He's like superman. He won't ever die. Never, ever, ever... Regardless of whether I see him or not. It isn't possible. Nope. Huh uh.
Posted by Rigby on January 17, 2004, at 0:35:02
In reply to Re: Moving Past Transference, posted by DaisyM on January 16, 2004, at 13:42:50
Hi Daisy,
You sound incredibly self-aware. It seems to be that you've been working hard--and not without pain on some deep stuff. I can so relate to not wanting to rely so much on a therapist because it does end and also your point about having this kind of intense support from a therapist making you realize how lonely it is in "real life." Anyway, thank you for your post--I really liked hearing your thoughts.
> I find that recognizing that I have needs has been one of the hardest parts of this. Since I didn't know I had them, they didn't feel unmet. Now, they feel too big for anyone to handle which explains alot about why I have always been so self-sufficient. (that, coupled with past experiences).
>
> I actually think my Therapist in some ways is trying to encourage a transference, or at least a more secure dependency because I let him get close and then I "run" back inside myself. We've many times had the "but this relationship ends, so why would I want to do this to myself" conversation. He always responds with a very honest, "yes, this ends. But for now I'm here to support you and not fail you, (like everyone else in one way or another) and we won't end until you are ready."
>
> I'm also aware that he continually finds areas where he sees friends, family, etc. offering support of some kind and he points it out and encourages me to recognize it or take it. So I think he is trying to expand my list of people to trust for me. I can see how having someone listen and accept what you feel could result in you building trust and trying it again.
>
> I think though that the intense support offered makes me more lonely in my "real" life until I feel brave enough to open up to someone about all of this. That is one of those unmet needs I wish I had never become aware of.
>
Posted by Rigby on January 17, 2004, at 0:39:44
In reply to Re: Moving Past Transference » Rigby, posted by crushedout on January 16, 2004, at 17:36:29
Hi Crushed. I hope you're doing okay there. I'm not clear on how to move past it either, actually. Just noodling on it and trying different stuff for now. I wonder if just tackling that sentence about having someone meet your needs so well--if that's some sort of clue--maybe an idealism that ends up back firing? Anyway, I hope things have calmed down a bit on your end.
> Sounds pretty brilliant. Although I'm still not entirely clear on how you move past it. Especially when I've never met anyone else in the whole world who meets my needs so well. I gotta think on it some more.
Posted by Rigby on January 17, 2004, at 0:44:50
In reply to Re: Moving Past Transference, posted by Dinah on January 16, 2004, at 17:40:23
Hi Dinah,
Relative to therapy forever vs. not for forever, I think that people feel really differentlly. I have a good friend who is fine with, completely fine with seeing a therapist for the rest of her life. It's not a big deal. I'm pretty tweaky about it--I tend to view therapy as a process of improvement and eventually being able to step out into the world without, what feels to me (only to me!) like emotional training wheels. It's my issue, my hang-up but as much as I've dealt and continue to deal with issues around transference and attachment I'm ultimately uncomfortable being attached and dependent upon a therapist, long-haul. Who knows though? I may end up being a lifer and being fine with it too. Yah never know.
> I don't want an end point. My therapist and I were talking today about Elle's pdoc telling her that therapy wouldn't last because she didn't like to be pushed. But that I don't like to be pushed either and that not only have I been there going on 9 years, but he can't get rid of me. And he laughed and said "not without serious repercussions anyway" and then hastened to say that he wasn't trying to get rid of me. It made me feel kind of good though that he does know the dangers of my attachment. I'm never quite sure if he really gets it.
>
> Why would anyone *want* to end therapy?
>
>
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 17, 2004, at 11:56:38
In reply to Re: Moving Past Transference, posted by Dinah on January 16, 2004, at 17:40:23
Dinah, my main motivation for wanting to end therapy one day is due to money. Curently, I spend $150 a month on it (with insurance) which is really putting a strain on my budget. I know I need therapy and deserve it, so I am willing to sacrifice, but I always think about the money factor.
Posted by crushedout on January 17, 2004, at 15:57:41
In reply to Re: Moving Past Transference » crushedout, posted by Rigby on January 17, 2004, at 0:39:44
yeah, well, keep noodling! it's good noodling. maybe we'll all figure it out together. eventually.i think stuff *has* calmed down a bit. thanks. i'm sure it'll spark back up again. i think i'm still in love. but she went away this week and i had a nice break from her. it's sort of a relief. still, i can't wait to see her again.
> Hi Crushed. I hope you're doing okay there. I'm not clear on how to move past it either, actually. Just noodling on it and trying different stuff for now. I wonder if just tackling that sentence about having someone meet your needs so well--if that's some sort of clue--maybe an idealism that ends up back firing? Anyway, I hope things have calmed down a bit on your end.
>
> > Sounds pretty brilliant. Although I'm still not entirely clear on how you move past it. Especially when I've never met anyone else in the whole world who meets my needs so well. I gotta think on it some more.
>
>
Posted by DaisyM on January 17, 2004, at 19:58:42
In reply to Re: Moving Past Transference » DaisyM, posted by Rigby on January 17, 2004, at 0:35:02
Thanks. I actually find these days that I am learning about myself more and more. Or, maybe I should say, what I don't know about myself. It seems that I have been someone that everyone needed/wanted and I lost me somewhere along the way. I never realized how much I haven't followed my own dreams...and it is so much more than a midlife crisis (I just turned 42).
I think your posts are insightful and thought provoking. Frequently they make me consider things I haven't before.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 18, 2004, at 10:48:52
In reply to Re: Moving Past Transference, posted by DaisyM on January 17, 2004, at 19:58:42
Posted by ILoveYou,PeeWee! on January 23, 2004, at 1:02:49
In reply to Moving Past Transference, posted by Rigby on January 16, 2004, at 11:34:56
I'm new to this. So this is actually a quite common occurrence, to "fall in love" with the therapist? I wonder what the percentage rate is? I can obviously see how it could happen.
Posted by Catmom on January 24, 2004, at 23:47:55
In reply to Re: Moving Past Transference, posted by ILoveYou,PeeWee! on January 23, 2004, at 1:02:49
There are a lot of wise posts here. I think that we all have every-day "transference" and that a lot of our relationships, our opinions about people are a sometimes chaotic mesh of transference, projection, identification, and "reality" (whatever that it).
With therapy, the transference is heightened because we are in a vulnerable position with a person who represents power. A kind of needy "love" can often ensue and it can feel gripping. You feel as if you will do anything to win the approval of the therapist.
I started with my therapist in Oct, 2001--it's been almost 28 months now. I see the transference slowly and organically wafting away. I don't think about her very much outside of therapy. I don't worry at all about what I'm going to wear to sessions. I'm starting to care less about what she thinks of me and much more about what I think of myself.
Clearly, gaining indepence from needy or fearful fantasies is a good thing and I'm very glad that it's happening. It now seems quite conceivable to me that I could live without seeing her. But I don't think that we can will ourselves into or out of a transference. It happens, organically and sometimes stealthily and usually takes a while to build up and a while to subside.
Your mileage may vary, as they say.
Good luck, Rigby and everyone else!
This is the end of the thread.
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