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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jay on September 24, 2003, at 17:32:42
Is knowing and loving someone worth the price of losing them?I know it sounds like the obvious question and an obvious answer. This is only about the second time I've been able to talk/communicate about this on here. I've told my story before, and for some reason just letting it enter my mind (I mean..it's on my mind every day and every second..but I hide it from the world..and I hide from the world as well) causes me to break down and get all f***ed up, yet again.
But, back to the question, even after 5-6 or so years, I have a hard time stomaching the question. There is obviously a hole there no medication or amount of therapy will ever be able to fill. I've tried to kill it with anything..from heavy drugs to hiding underneath my sheets for days that turn to weeks and months on end. Yet, I do find...now...I focus on the fact my 'lost ones' love will always be with me, and *nothing* will never, ever break that. As torturing as that is, it oddly provides deep solace. I know, in an academic sense, everything about grief and death possibly published, as I had studied it in social work in school. Yet, it all ended up meaning nothing, and I even ripped my diploma from the frame on the wall and tossed it in the basement. But, all of the knowledge, money, or anything in the world means jack s**t. I am trying so hard to get back to the 'land of the living and loving'. More therapy and even med changes are on the way, but I feel so used up and 'broken', that what kind of gal wants to fall in love with a looser like me? Ohh..I know...self-pity...I am sorry...as I have the goal of 'getting outside of myself' set in my mind. I have a sweet little dog that loves me unconditionally...and I wish, pray so bad the world was like that.
So....here is a song I'd like to dedicate to all of the 'lost ones'..the 'lost souls'. Play it on Windows Media at: http://home.cogeco.ca/~elsamac/olpswot.wma
Let's share a few tears..
Jay
Posted by Susan J on September 25, 2003, at 9:48:11
In reply to Is knowing and loving someone worth......, posted by jay on September 24, 2003, at 17:32:42
Jay,
>>Is knowing and loving someone worth the price of losing them?
<<Jay, I don't know your story, but I can tell you, emphatically, yes, it's worth the extraordinary pain of losing them. At least to me, and I've got to be the most super-sensitive child on the planet. What helps *me* is to look at the *whole* picture, not just *my* feelings, be they wonderful or painful beyond reason.1. When you love someone, you bring joy to *their* life as well as your own.
But it's not just the joy that makes love important. It has a ripple effect. It's the nurturing effect it has on people. Perhaps your love of someone teaches someone else how to love. It's how love helps shore up another person's self-esteem, helps them back on the road to loving themselves. It's how love looks out for another person in rough times. It's how real love for another human being shows *you* how powerful *you* are. It's how love helps bring new kids into the world. It's how loving once teaches you how to love again, and hopefully even better the next time. Loving parents is about loving yourself. Loving kids (to me) is about loving God, humanity, life itself. Loving someone else teaches you to love yourself. It's all positive. Not just for you, but for *everyone* around you. The people you love, the people who see you love, the people who want to learn to love. Love is so much bigger than the joy that *you* feel.
And even when the person you love is gone, either from death or by choice, all the good of that love still exists because it touched so many people, in ways you can't even see or know. I thought my brother had the perfect marriage, wonderful loving spouse who loved their kid. I'm wrong about that, but that's another story. What *is* true, however, is that seeing their good love, even though none of it was directed at me, gave me hope, made me happy that others were happy, made me happy that their child was receiving their love. Their love was a wonderful thing to see, and I had nothing to do with it. Does that make any sense?
And when you lose a person you loved, you grieve. You grieve hard. But if you can, look at the pain as a celebration of how much you loved that person. How much good he/she gave you, and how much you gave to them. How much good others received just by being around loving, caring behavior.
2. On the flip side, when you shut down and refuse to love, you hurt people closest to you. You think you protect yourself, and you do. But other people start hurting. Other people are turned away from you emotionally. It does no good but prevent *possible* pain for you, and it does a world of hurt to the people who care about you.
We are meant to love. We will grieve. But to try and stop those emotions is robbing yourself, and those around you, of your humanity.I wish you the best. I know you are hurting, and I'm sorry. I hope *something* I said helps a little bit.
Susan
Posted by Dinah on September 25, 2003, at 17:44:13
In reply to Is knowing and loving someone worth......, posted by jay on September 24, 2003, at 17:32:42
Yes, it's worth it. Loving and being loved (in various ways) are the things that connect us to others, to the world, to society, and (if you wish) to God. It's hard though. It's hard to find people who will treat love with the reverence it deserves. There are only too many who will use your love to hurt you. Most love brings pain and betrayal. But when you find a love that doesn't, you have a treasure beyond all riches.
Posted by shar on September 27, 2003, at 17:18:06
In reply to Is knowing and loving someone worth......, posted by jay on September 24, 2003, at 17:32:42
> Ohh..I know...self-pity...
Jay,
(1) "Self-pity" used in the negative way you did against yourself, ought to be against the law, imo. Feeling hurt, sadness, pain, loneliness....is all minimized as "self-pity." I believe a therapist who uses the term ought to be suspended. Many times, we are the only ones who DO have empathy for ourselves (ie, kids from abusive homes).(2) I have this Jungian tape that says to feel better we may believe we need love (this is about abused kids). But, we can have love coming out our ears and still feel bad. What we need is a general caring for ourselves, self-respect for our qualities (even if imperfect), and treating ourselves well. That self-guidance, common sense, and using our well-developed intuition is what will accomplish the goal of feeling better. (From the abused kids angle, this is developing an internal 'mother' and if your external mother has failed you once, it is unlikely she will come thru at a later time.)
That may not help you at all, but it made an impression on me. It sounds like there is nothing inside of you providing warmth and care.
Grieving for a lost love makes sense; it fractures our lives; I think some people grieve their whole lives for that. But, maybe some internal, general caring (and meds, therapy, etc.) could help.
In the meantime, I'm happy to hear that you have a canine companion who thinks you're the cat's pajamas!
Good luck,
Shar
Posted by jay on September 30, 2003, at 23:12:13
In reply to Is knowing and loving someone worth......, posted by jay on September 24, 2003, at 17:32:42
Sorry for taking awhile to get back..It's been a *bad* few weeks. Yes, indeed there is strength in putting your heart on the line by loving someone. The price in losing them is part of the price of being human (I guess...as I still have so many issues...so I am not really confident in this statement...as I am sure many others on here feel too.) I think most of us (well all of us, actually..) know how lethal a broken heart can be. And it applies to losses on so many levels, not even just through death. So many stories, especially from what I read on here with people losing everything from pets to relationships to death, they all touch me very deeply. In so *many* ways do I wish I could 'fix' it all...so we all just live in harmony, peace, and happiness.
When I am a bit more stable, I will try to type more. Thanks for your thoughts...very much so.
Jay
Posted by Susan J on October 1, 2003, at 8:43:23
In reply to Thanx folks..Susan, Dinah, Shar, posted by jay on September 30, 2003, at 23:12:13
Jay,
Good to hear you are feeling a bit better. I had one other thought, or maybe someone else has posted it here and it just happened to ring very true for me.
It's almost scary to *stop* grieving for someone you've lost. It's almost like -- if the grief is gone, it somehow devalues how much you truly loved the person. But that's not true. Your love for people was HUGE, even if you do start to feel better. Once you feel better, you can look back fondly on memories and experience the connection to the in a whole different, and much happier way.
Posted by jay on October 4, 2003, at 2:57:25
In reply to Re: Thanx folks..Susan, Dinah, Shar, posted by Susan J on October 1, 2003, at 8:43:23
> Jay,
>
> Good to hear you are feeling a bit better. I had one other thought, or maybe someone else has posted it here and it just happened to ring very true for me.
>
> It's almost scary to *stop* grieving for someone you've lost. It's almost like -- if the grief is gone, it somehow devalues how much you truly loved the person. But that's not true. Your love for people was HUGE, even if you do start to feel better. Once you feel better, you can look back fondly on memories and experience the connection to the in a whole different, and much happier way.
>
>Susan...thanks so much for the post, again. It's just been awful these past few weeks, but yesterday with some simple help and a med change, I am in a more positive mood. That's what scares me *so* much, is those 'black' moods.
I've known for a very long time that 'death' of anyone I loved would put me into a scary place that I would not know how to deal with. When life came along and 'whacked' me with the death of my child and girlfriend (my daughters Mom...we where to marry), coupled with my depressive problems, I felt that was 'it'...game over...end of story. Yeah, I crumpled under it all.
The scars don't leave...and as I see my folks getting older, and older relatives dying, I've felt way to close to 'death'...not far away enough towards 'life'. I've tried to let time heal, and I always said to myself.."just wait it out...*something* will come up.."...whatever that is supposed to mean. I am back at a bit of an 'upswing' (touch wood!), so I do feel a bit better, but 'tis such a long road. I said before in a past post..."You can never break the chain..", and that's like what you said...you don't really ever stop grieving. And you also never stop loving the 'lost ones', but that one term that griefologists use, "Acceptance" slowly comes along in tiny little pieces, but in no order and are often hard to put together.
I used to wonder..."if someone survives something like this...what kind of person come out the other end?" That goes for all of us, with so many different loses. There is still some kind of small, flickering light in me that thinks yet a better person can come of all of this, despite all of the baggage and scars.
Anyhow...thanks for the very kind and insightful post...
Sincerely,
Jay
Posted by Susan J on October 4, 2003, at 13:17:29
In reply to Re: Thanx folks..Susan, Dinah, Shar » Susan J, posted by jay on October 4, 2003, at 2:57:25
Jay,
> That's what scares me *so* much, is those 'black' moods.
<<I know the feeling totally. Get a little better and become terrified of where you once were....>> I felt that was 'it'...game over...end of story. Yeah, I crumpled under it all.
<<That's enough to crumple anyone. That's really rough.
>
> I used to wonder..."if someone survives something like this...what kind of person come out the other end?" That goes for all of us, with so many different loses. There is still some kind of small, flickering light in me that thinks yet a better person can come of all of this, despite all of the baggage and scars.
<<I *totally* believe that! You are better for having known the special people in your life. That is the gift they gave to you, that is part of the value of their lives.And the grief/depression/pain is life-changing as well, regardless of the cause. People who've been through it and deal with it become more empathetic, wiser, more understanding of the human condition. It's a high price to pay, but that really could be a priceless gift.
I think you mentioned you don't really believe in God or an afterlife, and I don't blame you at all. I generally have a *very* strong belief in God, but that's been tested with this depression I've gone through. How could such horrible things, horrible pain, settle on any one person for so long? I still don't get that.
But it doesn't stop me from talking to people who have passed away. I ask my grandmother all the time what she thinks of something, please give me a sign about what I should do. I have to say no one has ever answered back. :-) But it still makes me feel better. They are still a part of my life. It's different, no doubt. But just the talking out of a problem or something with a loved one who has passed away, thinking about how they'd respond, what advice they'd give, is helpful to me. It brings back fond memories, makes me feel close to them even though they are gone, and reaffirms how special they were to me.
But I've also never lost a child, or anyone young for that matter. The people in my life who have died have been fairly old and had done everything in life there was to do. Love, lost, built, destroyed, achieved, failed, they were human. Death fascinates me and I think of it as a new journey to take where whatever is on the otherside is going to be interesting, to say the least. This does *not* mean I want to take that journey anytime soon, but I see it as a wonderful next step after having lived a full life. I know that doesn't help with the loss of your daughter and girlfriend, but maybe it might give you some comfort for the older people in your life. My grandmother wasn't afraid to die. Not ever. She was afraid of living a horrible, meaningless life. She was afraid of suffering a stroke that left her mentally or physically incapacitated. And I have to agree. I don't think I'm a strong enough person to live with a large disability. Death is *not* the worst thing there is. I'd have to say intractable depression has *got* to be worse than death.
I've rambled. I hope something I wrote helps a bit. Throw away the rest. :-) I'm thinking of you. I'm glad you are feeling better. Keep taking care of yourself.
Susan
Posted by WakingDreamer on October 14, 2003, at 21:32:40
In reply to Is knowing and loving someone worth......, posted by jay on September 24, 2003, at 17:32:42
nothings obvious about the question or the answers if youve been through this. my partner was taken from me with our child, and all the knowledge in the world about grief and death doesnt help with feelings around this.
if you feel used up and 'broken' and that no gal would be with a "loser" like you, perhaps you shouldnt push so hard to "get out of yourself", perhaps you should stay within yourself as you need it and open yourself for a woman to join you inside yourself.
Posted by jeff g on October 31, 2003, at 10:56:31
In reply to yes, yes, and yes, posted by WakingDreamer on October 14, 2003, at 21:32:40
wow I can not really empathize with your distress. I have been going through what I think of as a lot of grief myself, but it is nothing compared to what you've been through. You are a really strong person to even have gotten this far, and to be reaching out for hope. I can't really offer you any advice except to keep their memory alive and pray to them, and perhaps seek support in your community
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