![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 21 to 45 of 45. Go back in thread:
Posted by tealady on November 15, 2004, at 3:19:13
In reply to Re: newsweek article on mental health.. » sabre, posted by KaraS on November 10, 2004, at 0:58:16
> > Hi Kara
> > No, I don't have ADD or CFS but I was curious about the hypersensitive dopamine receptors. The combination of ADD and CFA sounds miserable.
>
> I don't know that I have ADD. I only mentioned ADD because some who react paradoxically to stimulants have that - but they get calmed and can think more clearly on stimulants. For me, I just get put to sleep. Wish they did make me think more clearly.
>I go to sleep whenever I relax a little ..it showed on an EEG :) so its either tense in the sides of my head or asleep..hence my jax tends to ache sometimes and I get TMG? think that's it
> I also only get attacks of CFS when I get run down so I'm not in bad shape like when I first got it many years ago.
>
> > Have you tried reducing your dosage of the stimulant/dopaminergic to see if you get the required response at a lower dosage?
>
> Yes, I've tried very small amounts of stimulants.
> It's the higher doses that I haven't tried.
>
> > I have found around 1/4 of the suggested therapeutic dosage seems right for me for the drugs I have tried. If you could then increase it very very gradually so you sneak up on the receptors.
> >
> > The other suggestion would be to try alternative supplements for a period to perhaps begin the task of toning the receptors down.
>
> What supplements are you thinking of besides tyrosine? I tried that and it did nothing for me at all and I started low and went up to nearly 4,000 mg. a day.
>
>
when you tried tyrosine ..di you try the straight l-tyroine posder ..or say Thorne RESearch l-tyrsoine capsules..something not too mixed with binders, fillers etc.
It made a big difference with me.(the tablets had little effect)
Also did you take the tyrosine by itself early n the morning a least say 30 min b4 any food or even a cuppa.(preferably an hour b4 since you are hypo)..like take it if you get up in the early morning for a toilet break..say 4am or 5am?(that's when I take my first lot med meds)That makes a difference also.
Jan
Posted by KaraS on November 15, 2004, at 8:09:04
In reply to Re: newsweek article on mental health.. » KaraS, posted by tealady on November 15, 2004, at 3:19:13
> > > Hi Kara
> > > No, I don't have ADD or CFS but I was curious about the hypersensitive dopamine receptors. The combination of ADD and CFA sounds miserable.
> >
> > I don't know that I have ADD. I only mentioned ADD because some who react paradoxically to stimulants have that - but they get calmed and can think more clearly on stimulants. For me, I just get put to sleep. Wish they did make me think more clearly.
> >
>
> I go to sleep whenever I relax a little ..it showed on an EEG :) so its either tense in the sides of my head or asleep..hence my jax tends to ache sometimes and I get TMG? think that's it
>
>
> > I also only get attacks of CFS when I get run down so I'm not in bad shape like when I first got it many years ago.
> >
> > > Have you tried reducing your dosage of the stimulant/dopaminergic to see if you get the required response at a lower dosage?
> >
> > Yes, I've tried very small amounts of stimulants.
> > It's the higher doses that I haven't tried.
> >
> > > I have found around 1/4 of the suggested therapeutic dosage seems right for me for the drugs I have tried. If you could then increase it very very gradually so you sneak up on the receptors.
> > >
> > > The other suggestion would be to try alternative supplements for a period to perhaps begin the task of toning the receptors down.
> >
> > What supplements are you thinking of besides tyrosine? I tried that and it did nothing for me at all and I started low and went up to nearly 4,000 mg. a day.
> >
> >
> when you tried tyrosine ..di you try the straight l-tyroine posder ..or say Thorne RESearch l-tyrsoine capsules..something not too mixed with binders, fillers etc.
> It made a big difference with me.(the tablets had little effect)
> Also did you take the tyrosine by itself early n the morning a least say 30 min b4 any food or even a cuppa.(preferably an hour b4 since you are hypo)..like take it if you get up in the early morning for a toilet break..say 4am or 5am?(that's when I take my first lot med meds)
>
> That makes a difference also.
>
>
> JanYes, I took the l-tyrosine at least 45 minutes before food. I also took the B vitamin that is supposed to potentiate it. The brand I took was Ecological Formulas (in capsule form) - an excellent brand. I followed the directions as prescribed by Dr. Priscilla Slagle to a T. Still no benefit whatsoever.
If I do try tyrosine again, it will only be the Norival version.
I still owe some more replies on this board but I have to get ready for work. Talk to you later.
Have a good day.Kara
Posted by tealady on November 19, 2004, at 20:13:41
In reply to newsweek article on mental health.., posted by raybakes on November 8, 2004, at 7:21:47
> Interesting article on infection and the mind...
>
> 'Diseases of the Mind
> Bacteria, viruses and parasites may cause mental illnesses like depression and perhaps even autism and anorexia'
>
> http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3540627
>
>Hi Ray,
Still going thru old posts I was going to reply to :-)I knew about lyme..a lot of folk on the British thyroid board have been looking at it..the depression is one part of it.
There's a doc in England (or probably a few) who is into treating it I think.
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroiduk/messages?msg=2092.1 (I think)
It's a long treatment ..like months or years..and I don't recall any real successes but maybe I didn't follow it enough...or maybe the treatment isn't over as yet.I tried doxycycline for 6 weeks myself this year..continuing for a few weeks when was in Britain. (my excuse was a malaria preventative, when I was in a high malaria area) I felt terrific on it after a while, but in the end my teeth seemed to be going brown and cracking..not sure if it was related or not..but I stopped.
Ya know what..the only time in my life I had a clear nasal passage was when I was in Britain..so is this the doxycycline or maybe just the eucalypts? Was interesting anyway. I was put on antihistamines at birth to allow me to feed :)
Nasal passages reblocked about 1 hr after I landed back in Oz.
Re Strep..yes, I always suspected it would..I personally blame the "don't give an antibiotic until we see if you can fight it doctrine"..(gee penicillin is all that is needed )
Could rave on about what this has caused for a long time..but I'm sure everyone would think I'm nuts.(hmm guess they already do?)
I've been waiting for medicine field to wake up..I suspect they might be a little?also similar thing for psoriasis, maybe a lot of autoimmune problems..works similar to rheumatic fever...
hey that doesn't exist in our modern society? It still exists in outback Oz amongst aboriginal communities, and they have tried vaccinating all the kids with penicillin injections ..only one problem with this..the injections are painful and after the first couple the kids wake up and disappear into the bush when they see the docs coming...docs/researchers haven't heard of a reward system it appears.
If the do come down with rheumatic fever..from the strep throat, then they get treated with penicillin shots every month for years to prevent any outbreaks and it seems to work for those willing to undergo the injections.In my theory at least it works similarly.
Somehow the bacteria must allow the viruses etc to be worse..and when I go to the docs I just get ..its a virus..nothing I can do, and yet, if I treat with penicillin within the first day or two, I don't come down with any virus or depression..or worsening of autoimmune, daughter doesn't break out in psoriasis..don't get the very high temps or the arthritic like pain(with her it was called psoriatic arthritis) thru body or the depression...nor isn't this strange??
If untreated it last months.I know bacteriaphages aren't supposed to get humans ..but would this maybe be what is happening? or is it that our immune system just gets weakened?
All I know is that if the bacteria in the strep throat don't get the penicillin , and the temp goes high ..then it all starts. With my daughter it all began at age 10- with very high temps for a week or so..then the rashes started..then the arthritis etc..then they said it was arthritis. After the first time, comeback outbreaks(called its just a virus by docs) happen fairly often..and if immediately treated with penicillin all is fine,, if not..the spots, aches and pain, fatigue, depression flares again..lasts months....no obvious infection there..and yet the penicillin works to prevent it.
By the time the strep throat looks bad enough to treat..its too late.and I know we all have strep there all the time.
I've put myself on penicillin about 3 times this year..and stayed well, instead of the months of illness...including the depression. Wish I could qualify for the monthly injections for a trial for a couple of years.
Well all this is only my (probably wrong) opinion and what I've observed over the past 8 years or so.
Jan (hope this makes sense..I feel less literate than usual at present)> also a book on chronic fatigue and the limbic system..
>
> http://www.haworthpress.com/store/product.asp?sku=0178
>
> Ray
Posted by tealady on November 24, 2004, at 19:08:46
In reply to Re: newsweek article on mental health.. » raybakes, posted by tealady on November 19, 2004, at 20:13:41
lyme..another link
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=63558.10
and few posts after in that thread ..included is following link too
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ME-CFS-FMS_infections
Jan
(not sure if you got previous post this links to..board was very full at that time :)
Posted by tealady on November 29, 2004, at 16:45:52
In reply to Re: newsweek article on mental health.. » raybakes, posted by tealady on November 19, 2004, at 20:13:41
Posted by raybakes on November 30, 2004, at 4:27:05
In reply to Re: newsweek article ..bit more added » tealady, posted by tealady on November 24, 2004, at 19:08:46
> lyme..another link
> http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=63558.10
> and few posts after in that thread ..included is following link too
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ME-CFS-FMS_infections
> Jan
> (not sure if you got previous post this links to..board was very full at that time :)Thanks, useful links....have heard that lymes can be implicated in MS too...
Ray
Posted by raybakes on November 30, 2004, at 6:59:49
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem » linkadge, posted by KaraS on November 11, 2004, at 15:16:38
Hi Kara,
Have been taking hawthorn for the last couple of days and get a brain effect similar to when I eat chocolate or have DLPA - I notice it's a phosphodiesterase inhibitor like chocolate too. Phosphodiesterase inhibition should raise Cyclic AMP - would that be good or bad for you?
"autoreceptor regulation of tyrosine hydroxylase must occur through a decrease in cyclic AMP levels."
http://molpharm.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/29/6/561
Uncoupling of tyrosine hydroxylase sounds like the metabolic pathway has been disconnected - low biopterin has been mentioned in conection with uncoupling - and folate has been mentioned in studies to resist uncoupling and biopterin degradation.
When biopterin becomes 'uncoupled' from tyrosine hydroxylase, it can produce free radicals such as hydrogen peroxide.
Ray
Posted by raybakes on November 30, 2004, at 12:12:33
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem » KaraS, posted by raybakes on November 30, 2004, at 6:59:49
> Hi Kara,
looked up hydrogen peroxide and dopamine and found this abstract that says that H202 can inhibit dopamine release..H(2)O(2) is a novel, endogenous modulator of synaptic dopamine release.
Just interested in the H2O2 produced by tyrosine hydroxylase when it lacks it's co factors.
ray
Posted by tealady on November 30, 2004, at 18:04:48
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem » KaraS, posted by raybakes on November 30, 2004, at 6:59:49
> Have been taking hawthorn for the last couple of days and get a brain effect similar to when I eat chocolate or have DLPA - I notice it's a phosphodiesterase inhibitor like chocolate too. Phosphodiesterase inhibition should raise Cyclic AMP - would that be good or bad for you?
>> Uncoupling of tyrosine hydroxylase sounds like the metabolic pathway has been disconnected - low biopterin has been mentioned in conection with uncoupling - and folate has been mentioned in studies to resist uncoupling and biopterin degradation.
>
> When biopterin becomes 'uncoupled' from tyrosine hydroxylase, it can produce free radicals such as hydrogen peroxide.
>But Ray eating chocolate is much more fun!
this is kinda getting back to http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040928/msgs/404204.html
with BH4.
Think I meant that post for you as well :-)Have you found any good biopterin? Is it still norival (n-acetyl tyrosine and biopterin that you mention) in http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040901/msgs/386715.html
Also what did you end up taking to produce glutathione (if you worked anything out :-)
Sorry for all the questions
Jan
Posted by raybakes on December 1, 2004, at 12:06:21
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem » raybakes, posted by tealady on November 30, 2004, at 18:04:48
>
> But Ray eating chocolate is much more fun!
>
> this is kinda getting back to http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040928/msgs/404204.html
> with BH4.
> Think I meant that post for you as well :-)Thanks Jan, that abstract on supporting biopterin metabolism being as effective as an antioxidant makes sense.
>
> Have you found any good biopterin? Is it still norival (n-acetyl tyrosine and biopterin that you mention) in http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040901/msgs/386715.htmlNo, still using Norival with a little biopterin in it - haven't found a source with only biopterin yet.
> Also what did you end up taking to produce glutathione (if you worked anything out :-)Thiodox works really well for glutathione, I just have to make sure I've got plenty of methyl factors and donors other wise the NAC upsets me.
Ray
Posted by KaraS on December 1, 2004, at 22:39:24
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem » KaraS, posted by raybakes on November 30, 2004, at 6:59:49
> Hi Kara,
>
> Have been taking hawthorn for the last couple of days and get a brain effect similar to when I eat chocolate or have DLPA - I notice it's a phosphodiesterase inhibitor like chocolate too. Phosphodiesterase inhibition should raise Cyclic AMP - would that be good or bad for you?
>> "autoreceptor regulation of tyrosine hydroxylase must occur through a decrease in cyclic AMP levels."
>
> http://molpharm.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/29/6/561
>
> Uncoupling of tyrosine hydroxylase sounds like the metabolic pathway has been disconnected - low biopterin has been mentioned in conection with uncoupling - and folate has been mentioned in studies to resist uncoupling and biopterin degradation.
>
> When biopterin becomes 'uncoupled' from tyrosine hydroxylase, it can produce free radicals such as hydrogen peroxide.
>
> Ray
>Dunno if hawthorne would be good for me or not. From the article you attached it seems that Cyclic AMP activates the tyroxine hydroxylase (which I'm assuming helps to create more dopamine). In the long run that's good I think because you want to flood the synapses with dopamine to force downregulation. The article is too far over my head to say for sure though.
Thanks for thinking of me. If you find out anything more about it, please let me know.
Kara
Posted by KaraS on December 1, 2004, at 22:49:42
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem » raybakes, posted by raybakes on November 30, 2004, at 12:12:33
> > Hi Kara,
>
> looked up hydrogen peroxide and dopamine and found this abstract that says that H202 can inhibit dopamine release..
>
> H(2)O(2) is a novel, endogenous modulator of synaptic dopamine release.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11387393&dopt=Abstract
>
> Just interested in the H2O2 produced by tyrosine hydroxylase when it lacks it's co factors.
>
> ray
>Never heard of H2O2 (ROS) before. The abstract says that it's a "modulator" of dopamine release. That doesn't necessarily mean inhibition though, does it?
Posted by raybakes on December 3, 2004, at 6:22:44
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem » raybakes, posted by KaraS on December 1, 2004, at 22:49:42
> > > Hi Kara,
> >
> > looked up hydrogen peroxide and dopamine and found this abstract that says that H202 can inhibit dopamine release..
> >
> > H(2)O(2) is a novel, endogenous modulator of synaptic dopamine release.
> >
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11387393&dopt=Abstract
> >
> > Just interested in the H2O2 produced by tyrosine hydroxylase when it lacks it's co factors.
> >
> > ray
> >
>
> Never heard of H2O2 (ROS) before. The abstract says that it's a "modulator" of dopamine release. That doesn't necessarily mean inhibition though, does it?Hi Kara,
H2O2 is hydrogen peroxide - I was concerned that tyrosine hydroxylase could make a potent free radical instead of L DOPA if it didn't have the right nutrients to help it function. cAMP is something that is increased by chocolate and PEA (and hawthorn) and is implicated in the swithching on and off of dopamine metabolism within the cell. Opiates such as morphine (and wheat and dairy opiates) first raise it and then lower cAMP - the lowering of cAMP is thought to cause serotonin and dopamine to fail leading to desire for more opiates. Just had a test from an autism lab - I have unusual tryptophan by-products in my urine that suggest I'm making opiates from wheat and undermining my serotonin metabolism.
There is a possibility that low cAMP could be what brain fog is - not sure as all the info is a bit sketchy!
Ray
Posted by KaraS on December 3, 2004, at 14:28:34
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem » KaraS, posted by raybakes on December 3, 2004, at 6:22:44
> Hi Ray,
>
> H2O2 is hydrogen peroxideYes, of course. Duh!
>> - I was concerned that tyrosine hydroxylase could make a potent free radical instead of L DOPA if it didn't have the right nutrients to help it function. cAMP is something that is increased by chocolate and PEA (and hawthorn) and is implicated in the swithching on and off of dopamine metabolism within the cell. Opiates such as morphine (and wheat and dairy opiates) first raise it and then lower cAMP - the lowering of cAMP is thought to cause serotonin and dopamine to fail leading to desire for more opiates. Just had a test from an autism lab - I have unusual tryptophan by-products in my urine that suggest I'm making opiates from wheat and undermining my serotonin metabolism.
Thanks for the explanation. It's fascinating that you're able to get that kind of information from the lab. If you're not metabolizing serotonin correctly, wouldn't you be feeling very depressed or does this just refer to the serotonin in the body and not beyond the BBB? If you don't mind my asking, how does your autism manifest? I would never think that was an issue of yours from dealing with you on-line. If you don't wish to discuss it that's fine too.
> There is a possibility that low cAMP could be what brain fog is - not sure as all the info is a bit sketchy!
Would be great if they figured out what causes brain fog!
Kara
Posted by raybakes on December 4, 2004, at 13:36:29
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem » raybakes, posted by KaraS on December 3, 2004, at 14:28:34
> >
> Thanks for the explanation. It's fascinating that you're able to get that kind of information from the lab. If you're not metabolizing serotonin correctly, wouldn't you be feeling very depressed or does this just refer to the serotonin in the body and not beyond the BBB?I don't fully understand it, but I do get very depressed if I eat pasta - a little depressed if I eat wheat in small doses. The unusual by-product of serotonin is called IAG and is claimed to be increased by opiates from wheat - other people make opiates from dairy and what's interesting is that opiates have an effect on the presynaptic control of dopamine...I don't claim to understand any of it, but it's interesting that wheat and dairy in some people could disregulate dopmine producing neurons.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9351509
>If you don't mind my asking, how does your autism manifest? I would never think that was an issue of yours from dealing with you on-line. If you don't wish to discuss it that's fine too.
Probably more an aspergers type of person - on a bad day I feel emotionless and want to be alone! The researchers say that people with chronic fatigue and gulf war syndrome often have the same profile.
> > There is a possibility that low cAMP could be what brain fog is - not sure as all the info is a bit sketchy!
>
> Would be great if they figured out what causes brain fog!
As well as opiates, gaba, glutamate and acetylcholine appear to have an effect on presynaptic dopamine receptors - are they the same as autoreceptors?Just started reading a book called "prozac backlash" It talks about SSRIs inhibiting dopamine, and so dramatically reducing female hormones. I wonder whether autoimmunity increases with SSRIs, what do you think?
Ray
Posted by KaraS on December 4, 2004, at 15:28:10
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem » KaraS, posted by raybakes on December 4, 2004, at 13:36:29
> > >
> > Thanks for the explanation. It's fascinating that you're able to get that kind of information from the lab. If you're not metabolizing serotonin correctly, wouldn't you be feeling very depressed or does this just refer to the serotonin in the body and not beyond the BBB?
>
> I don't fully understand it, but I do get very depressed if I eat pasta - a little depressed if I eat wheat in small doses. The unusual by-product of serotonin is called IAG and is claimed to be increased by opiates from wheat - other people make opiates from dairy and what's interesting is that opiates have an effect on the presynaptic control of dopamine...I don't claim to understand any of it, but it's interesting that wheat and dairy in some people could disregulate dopmine producing neurons.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9351509
>Ray,
Is there no end to the things that can disrupt dopamine production or transmission? It's overwhelming (and I'm sure we've barely touched on all of the possible factors involved). I must sound like a broken record on this topic but I'm tired of trying to figure it all out. Right now I just want to take a pill and make the problem go away!
> >If you don't mind my asking, how does your autism manifest? I would never think that was an issue of yours from dealing with you on-line. If you don't wish to discuss it that's fine too.
>
> Probably more an aspergers type of person - on a bad day I feel emotionless and want to be alone! The researchers say that people with chronic fatigue and gulf war syndrome often have the same profile.I often want to be left alone. I've always needed a lot more alone time than most people. I guess the difference is that I don't feel emotionless.
> > > There is a possibility that low cAMP could be what brain fog is - not sure as all the info is a bit sketchy!
> >
> > Would be great if they figured out what causes brain fog!
>
> As well as opiates, gaba, glutamate and acetylcholine appear to have an effect on presynaptic dopamine receptors - are they the same as autoreceptors?
>But brain fog can be affected by things that don't in turn effect dopamine receptors, no?
My understanding (and hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong) is that if the receptors are presynaptic, then they are autoreceptors.
> Just started reading a book called "prozac backlash" It talks about SSRIs inhibiting dopamine, and so dramatically reducing female hormones. I wonder whether autoimmunity increases with SSRIs, what do you think?There's been some interesting debate about the validity of Glenmullen and Breggin's books on the main board. I'm a bit skeptical of some of their work. The SSRIs inhibiting dopamine is dead on though. Some people seem able to take SSRIs indefinitely without this result for some reason but others of us aren't so lucky. I think that years of SSRI usage may have contributed to my condition now. I strongly suspect that these meds had that negative affect while I was taking them. Now that I am no longer taking them I don't know if they are still a factor in my condition. Unfortunately I can't go back and see if I would still be this anergic had I never taken an SSRI so I will never know for certain how much of a long-term inpact they have had.
I hadn't heard of SSRIs reducing female hormones. That wouldn't surprise me either. I remember that when I would start on an SSRI or go off of one, I would have disruptions in my menstrual cycle. I told my pdoc but she said there's no relationship. I told her I didn't believe that because my body was telling me otherwise and that I thought that in time this would come out. (However, some temporary disruptions in my cycle doesn't necessarily mean that they lowered the hormone levels significantly and over the long-term.)
In terms of autoimmunity, since decreasing hormone levels are associated with more autoimmunity problems, then it does follow logically that SSRIs could impact autoimmunity (if, in fact, the SSRIs do lower hormone levels signficantly). I did develop Hashimoto's while I was on Effexor. Hmmm... Now what was I saying about not buying Glenmullen's theories???? Still, I'd recommend checking out the debate on his work on the main board if you get a chance.
Kara
> Ray
>
>
Posted by linkadge on December 5, 2004, at 11:32:58
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem » raybakes, posted by KaraS on December 4, 2004, at 15:28:10
Cofee quickly raises cAMP within the cell.
Coffee has a powerful anti-brainfog effect.
I've had some good sucess with low SSRI doses and coffee.
Linkadge
Posted by raybakes on December 6, 2004, at 3:23:46
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem, posted by linkadge on December 5, 2004, at 11:32:58
Posted by raybakes on December 6, 2004, at 3:44:15
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem » raybakes, posted by KaraS on December 4, 2004, at 15:28:10
>
> Is there no end to the things that can disrupt dopamine production or transmission? It's overwhelming (and I'm sure we've barely touched on all of the possible factors involved). I must sound like a broken record on this topic but I'm tired of trying to figure it all out. Right now I just want to take a pill and make the problem go away!It's so tough all this stuff - as much as i'd like one thing to be available, I'm afraid it's many things, but they do interconnect and paint a broader picture I feel - for me, it's more of an art than a science.
> There's been some interesting debate about the validity of Glenmullen and Breggin's books on the main board. I'm a bit skeptical of some of their work. The SSRIs inhibiting dopamine is dead on though. Some people seem able to take SSRIs indefinitely without this result for some reason but others of us aren't so lucky. I think that years of SSRI usage may have contributed to my condition now. I strongly suspect that these meds had that negative affect while I was taking them. Now that I am no longer taking them I don't know if they are still a factor in my condition. Unfortunately I can't go back and see if I would still be this anergic had I never taken an SSRI so I will never know for certain how much of a long-term inpact they have had.Looked up a thread on glenmullen - found the arguements quite polarised which was not what I got from the book. I felt he was taking a broad view of all factors, not saying anything was always 'this way' or always 'that way'.
> I hadn't heard of SSRIs reducing female hormones. That wouldn't surprise me either. I remember that when I would start on an SSRI or go off of one, I would have disruptions in my menstrual cycle. I told my pdoc but she said there's no relationship. I told her I didn't believe that because my body was telling me otherwise and that I thought that in time this would come out. (However, some temporary disruptions in my cycle doesn't necessarily mean that they lowered the hormone levels significantly and over the long-term.)Glenmullen talks about the dopamine/serotonin antagonism - dopamine is needed to inhibit prolactin - prolactin when high inhibits hormone prodcution ...think also serotonin has a direct effect on pituitary rhythms and cycles, so wonder if raising serotonin might disturb a woman's delicate time clock?
Ray
Posted by raybakes on December 6, 2004, at 14:01:30
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem, posted by linkadge on December 5, 2004, at 11:32:58
> Cofee quickly raises cAMP within the cell.
>
> Coffee has a powerful anti-brainfog effect.
>
> I've had some good sucess with low SSRI doses and coffee.
>
>
Hi the cAMP problem is something that Barry Sears talks about in his "anti-aging zone".What is of interest is that insulin can antagonize cAMP and interleukin 6 can raise insulin!
James South has quite a good article on cAMP..
INSULIN, cAMP, & EFFECTIVE HORMONAL COMMUNICATION
Most hormones deliver their "message" by interacting with specific receptors on outer cell membrane surfaces, although some do penetrate directly into the cell as well. When hormones bind to their appropriate cellular receptors, they normally activate substances inside the cell known as "second messengers" (the hormone [Ed.- hormone is Latin meaning chemical-messenger] is the first "messenger"). These second messengers actually induce the hormonal biological effect inside the cell. Insulin acts through the second messengers inositol triphosphate (IP3) and diacylglycerol (DAG).
Perhaps the commonest second messenger, however, is cyclic AMP (cAMP). "Many hormones do appear to utilize cAMP as a second messenger, including calcitonin, chorionic gonadotrophin, corticotrophin, epinephrine [adrenalin], follicle-stimulating hormone [FSH], glucagon, luteinizing hormone [LH], lipotrophin, melanocyte-stimulating hormone [MSH], norepinephrine [noradrenaline], parathyroid hormone, thyroid-stimulating hormone [TSH], and vasopressin." (9)
Thus, not only are insulin and glucagon opposite in their basic physiologic actions, they were opposing second messengers: IP3/DAG vs. cAMP. Sears points out that "...if a cell has multiple hormone receptors, then the final biological response of the cell depends on which second messenger system (cAMP or IP3/DAG) predominates at that point in time." (7) When hormones such as noradrenaline or glucagon bind to their cell membrane receptors, they activate an enzyme called "adenylate cyclase." This enzyme then produces the cAMP second messenger inside the cell.
Unfortunately insulin opposes cyclic AMP production by adenylate cyclase. (9 Now you can begin to see why Sears considers excessive insulin as the basic pillar of aging. Insulin is one of the few hormones (cortisol being the other major one) which increases with age - most others, such as thyroid, DHEA, testosterone, estrogen, growth hormone, etc. decrease with age.
Now look again at the long list of hormones (and not all of them are listed) which use cAMP as their second messenger, most of which hormones suffer decreased secretion with aging. Since insulin generally increases with age, but opposes cAMP, while most hormones that act through cAMP decrease with age, it is obvious that hyperinsulinemia will tend to distort the overall "symphonic orchestra" of hormone interactions, and thus promote "low fidelity" hormonal communication.
Thus hyperinsulinemia will tend to damage our entire metabolism, because the sum total of the myriad biochemical reactions in our trillions of cells is under the control of our (ideally) tightly synchronized and integrated hormonal "symphonic orchestra." Imagine the sound of a symphony played by an orchestra where one instrument (e.g. the trumpet) is highly amplified while the other instruments are being muted in their sound volume, and you have a crude metaphor for the metabolic dysregulation induced by excessive carbohydrate consumption - caused hyperinsulinemia
Posted by tealady on December 7, 2004, at 18:08:55
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem » KaraS, posted by raybakes on December 4, 2004, at 13:36:29
>
> As well as opiates, gaba, glutamate and acetylcholine appear to have an effect on presynaptic dopamine receptors - are they the same as autoreceptors?
>Yes, and sure to be others :-)
My guess is that autoreceptors have to be by definition pre-synaptic. In books I just looked up the term seems to be the same.
But I would have thougt that presynaptic receptors could have feedback by other things other than "self" and I get the impression that autoreceptors are receptors in the same synapse that released them..so unsure if autoreceptors are a subset of presynaptic or the one and same term...Autoreceptors can inhibit or facilitate release of neurotransmitters.
Ganong "Review of medical physiology" pp 96 mentions receptorsit says (as one would expect) prolonged exposure to their ligands causes most receptor to become unresponsive..ie to undergo desensitization.
> Just started reading a book called "prozac backlash" It talks about SSRIs inhibiting dopamine, and so dramatically reducing female hormones. I wonder whether autoimmunity increases with SSRIs, what do you think?
>
> Ray
>
Yes Ray, probably all true. I just enjoy tearing up scripts for SSRI's in the past few years..Jan
Posted by KaraS on December 9, 2004, at 16:11:22
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem » KaraS, posted by raybakes on December 6, 2004, at 3:44:15
> >
> > Is there no end to the things that can disrupt dopamine production or transmission? It's overwhelming (and I'm sure we've barely touched on all of the possible factors involved). I must sound like a broken record on this topic but I'm tired of trying to figure it all out. Right now I just want to take a pill and make the problem go away!
>
> It's so tough all this stuff - as much as i'd like one thing to be available, I'm afraid it's many things, but they do interconnect and paint a broader picture I feel - for me, it's more of an art than a science.
That's great because you enjoy it. I was enjoying it (though I didn't get to your level of scientific understanding) but now I just want some results. Then maybe later I can fine tune things and enjoy the research.
> > There's been some interesting debate about the validity of Glenmullen and Breggin's books on the main board. I'm a bit skeptical of some of their work. The SSRIs inhibiting dopamine is dead on though. Some people seem able to take SSRIs indefinitely without this result for some reason but others of us aren't so lucky. I think that years of SSRI usage may have contributed to my condition now. I strongly suspect that these meds had that negative affect while I was taking them. Now that I am no longer taking them I don't know if they are still a factor in my condition. Unfortunately I can't go back and see if I would still be this anergic had I never taken an SSRI so I will never know for certain how much of a long-term inpact they have had.
>
> Looked up a thread on glenmullen - found the arguements quite polarised which was not what I got from the book. I felt he was taking a broad view of all factors, not saying anything was always 'this way' or always 'that way'.I wonder if those taking part in that discussion had read the whole book... I'm glad that it's a more balanced approach though.
> > I hadn't heard of SSRIs reducing female hormones. That wouldn't surprise me either. I remember that when I would start on an SSRI or go off of one, I would have disruptions in my menstrual cycle. I told my pdoc but she said there's no relationship. I told her I didn't believe that because my body was telling me otherwise and that I thought that in time this would come out. (However, some temporary disruptions in my cycle doesn't necessarily mean that they lowered the hormone levels significantly and over the long-term.)
>
> Glenmullen talks about the dopamine/serotonin antagonism - dopamine is needed to inhibit prolactin - prolactin when high inhibits hormone prodcution ...think also serotonin has a direct effect on pituitary rhythms and cycles, so wonder if raising serotonin might disturb a woman's delicate time clock?
It definitely did so for me when I'd change dosages but I would always reajust when stablized at a particular dose.
> Ray
Posted by KaraS on December 9, 2004, at 16:15:09
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem...Lar » raybakes, posted by tealady on December 7, 2004, at 18:08:55
>>... probably all true. I just enjoy tearing up scripts for SSRI's in the past few years..
>
> JanGood move, Jan! Wish I had done same!
K
Posted by tealady on December 10, 2004, at 4:51:04
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem » tealady, posted by KaraS on December 9, 2004, at 16:15:09
> >>... probably all true. I just enjoy tearing up scripts for SSRI's in the past few years..
> >
> > Jan
>
> Good move, Jan! Wish I had done same!
>
> Kah, but I'd taken lots of them on a hey you haven't tried this one yet scientific basis and earlier still others like amitryptyline for 10 years b4 that! Took me a while to figure it out!!!
I foud out today that tyrosine hydroxylase when it's NOT used to go to l-dopa etc, and builds up instead..actually forms amyloid plaques ..like alzheimers..in some die-out male animal ..no research on humans as yet......at least that's if I GOT IT RIGHT!
wondering if maybe one needs that BH4 if that happens in humans that is?
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2004, at 9:03:29
In reply to Re: dopamine autoreceptor problem...Lar » raybakes, posted by tealady on December 7, 2004, at 18:08:55
> My guess is that autoreceptors have to be by definition pre-synaptic. In books I just looked up the term seems to be the same.
Yes, auto-receptors are the feedback to the cell releasing a neurotransmitter. The releasing cell has to have a way of measuring how strong its own signalling is, as it is otherwise not connected to the cells on the other side of the synapse (but for synapses arranged in the reverse direction).
> But I would have thougt that presynaptic receptors could have feedback by other things other than "self" and I get the impression that autoreceptors are receptors in the same synapse that released them..so unsure if autoreceptors are a subset of presynaptic or the one and same term...
When a neurotransmitter is released into the synapse, it does so by rupturing a vescicle, something like a bubble, that stores neurotransmitters in fluid. Vescicles do not contain pure neurotransmitters. They are always a blend. They will contain inhibitory substances like GABA or taurine, or excitatory ones like glutamate or acetylcholine, along with the dopamine or serotonin or whatever is being released. The autoreceptors can sense both the primary neurotransmitter, and the modulating ones. Autoreceptors tend to be dimerized (or even polymerized), to detect multiple ligands simultaneously.
> Autoreceptors can inhibit or facilitate release of neurotransmitters.See above. Probably through modulators simultaneously released, and the primary signal intensity, somehow integrated by second messengers.
> Ganong "Review of medical physiology" pp 96 mentions receptors
>
> it says (as one would expect) prolonged exposure to their ligands causes most receptor to become unresponsive..ie to undergo desensitization.That's due to saturation. It's the same process that causes e.g. the sense of smell to be accustomed to a strong stimulus over time.
> > Just started reading a book called "prozac backlash" It talks about SSRIs inhibiting dopamine, and so dramatically reducing female hormones. I wonder whether autoimmunity increases with SSRIs, what do you think?
> >
> > Ray
> >
> Yes Ray, probably all true. I just enjoy tearing up scripts for SSRI's in the past few years..
>
> JanLar
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