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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by sfy on September 18, 2004, at 13:48:05
In reply to i found that Selegiline Phenylalanine made me » sfy, posted by joebob on September 18, 2004, at 8:58:35
> nervous when taken together....
> what are good doses?
> how about tyrosine?
>
> thanksIt is supposed to be activating so for some people it will increase anxiety - I've found in the past that sometimes medication-related anxiety reduces over time. I have to wait till next week to see how this combo affects my anxiety.
The usual dose of selegiline is 5 to 10 mg a day usually taken with breakfast. (Though I've seen some people mention that they take 2.5 mg). Anything more than 10 mg and you run the risk of selegiline becomine a non-selective MAOI complete with all the dietary restrictions. The DLPA dosage is usually 500 to 1000 mg taken first thing in the morning.
I know that phenylalanine is a tryrosine precursor but I haven't seen anything which directly addresses taking tyrosine with selegiline.
Posted by karaS on September 18, 2004, at 22:48:39
In reply to i found that Selegiline Phenylalanine made me » sfy, posted by joebob on September 18, 2004, at 8:58:35
> nervous when taken together....
> what are good doses?
> how about tyrosine?
>
> thanks
Tyrosine wouldn't provide the PEA which is the reason behind combining selegiline with phenylalanine.-K
Posted by SFY on September 27, 2004, at 12:40:39
In reply to Re: Selegiline Phenylalanine nemesis, posted by karaS on September 14, 2004, at 23:33:32
> sfy,
> If you do decide to try this, please post your results. I'd be very interested in seeing how your fared on it.
>
>
> KaraI'm on my second day of 500 mg. of DLPA and 5 mg. of Selegiline. So far, no apparent effect as far as I can tell. All I've noticed is a low-grade slightly buzzy headache but no change in energy or focus that jumps out at me.
I'll keep you posted on any further developments (and I think I'll move this to the main board instead of Alternative).
Posted by karaS on September 27, 2004, at 17:06:10
In reply to Re: Selegiline Phenylalanine » karaS, posted by SFY on September 27, 2004, at 12:40:39
> > sfy,
> > If you do decide to try this, please post your results. I'd be very interested in seeing how your fared on it.
> >
> >
> > Kara
>
> I'm on my second day of 500 mg. of DLPA and 5 mg. of Selegiline. So far, no apparent effect as far as I can tell. All I've noticed is a low-grade slightly buzzy headache but no change in energy or focus that jumps out at me.
>
> I'll keep you posted on any further developments (and I think I'll move this to the main board instead of Alternative).
>Thanks for keeping me posted. I don't remember how long it took before Nemesis got an antidepressant response, do you? I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it will kick in for you!
Posted by SFY on September 27, 2004, at 17:54:42
In reply to Re: Selegiline Phenylalanine » SFY, posted by karaS on September 27, 2004, at 17:06:10
> Thanks for keeping me posted. I don't remember how long it took before Nemesis got an antidepressant response, do you? I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it will kick in for you!
>Looking back, Nemesis said he felt a difference within 12 hours of taking his first dose! I would imagine that that's an unusual response to say the least.
Posted by karaS on September 28, 2004, at 0:14:07
In reply to Re: Selegiline Phenylalanine » karaS, posted by SFY on September 27, 2004, at 17:54:42
> > Thanks for keeping me posted. I don't remember how long it took before Nemesis got an antidepressant response, do you? I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it will kick in for you!
> >
>
> Looking back, Nemesis said he felt a difference within 12 hours of taking his first dose! I would imagine that that's an unusual response to say the least.
Yeah, I would think so but I have heard of it from others who took selegiline. You still have plenty of time to get a response though and you can still try 10 mg. and more l-phenylalanine (as you're probably planning to do).
Posted by Terry on September 30, 2004, at 20:46:26
In reply to Re: Selegiline Phenylalanine » karaS, posted by SFY on September 27, 2004, at 12:40:39
I've been doing 10mg Selegiline and 1000mg L-Phenylalanine for about three weeks. I have a moderate persistent depression. I get a slight mood elevation from it but not very much. The problem that I have is that every few days I go into these states where I experience some kind of mental torment that makes me kind of suicidal. I was experiencing this long before taking Selegiline plus L-PA. It's just that when I go into these cyclical states this combo does nothing at all to help; but then nothing that I've taken [which includes EVERYTHING] does help with this mental agony cycle.
What is really good about the combo though is that it really supresses my appitite. I've lost 15 lbs since starting on it. I've gained a lot of weight on Zyprexa (which I quit taking because it didn't help my problem.) So I really need to lose the weight.
I'm just wondering if anyone else has noticed a decrease in appitite with this combination?
Terry
Posted by sfy on October 2, 2004, at 10:50:06
In reply to Re: Selegiline Phenylalanine, posted by Terry on September 30, 2004, at 20:46:26
> I've been doing 10mg Selegiline and 1000mg L-Phenylalanine for about three weeks. I have a moderate persistent depression. I get a slight mood elevation from it but not very much. The problem that I have is that every few days I go into these states where I experience some kind of mental torment that makes me kind of suicidal. I was experiencing this long before taking Selegiline plus L-PA. It's just that when I go into these cyclical states this combo does nothing at all to help; but then nothing that I've taken [which includes EVERYTHING] does help with this mental agony cycle.
>
> What is really good about the combo though is that it really supresses my appitite. I've lost 15 lbs since starting on it. I've gained a lot of weight on Zyprexa (which I quit taking because it didn't help my problem.) So I really need to lose the weight.
>
> I'm just wondering if anyone else has noticed a decrease in appitite with this combination?
>
> TerrySounds like a case of double depression - a dysthymia punctuated by bouts of major depression. I haven't seen any evidence that this combo works well to alleviate or prevent deep depressive episodes. Those tend to be more serotonin related rather than dopaminergic which is how the selegiline/phenylalanine supposedly acts.
Also, some have reported better luck using DLPA rather than just LPA. There's an added effect from the DPA isomer.
I've been on 5 mg. of selegiline and 500 mg. of DLPA for about a week. Haven't noticed anything dramatic. My initial headache passed after a few days. My mood is stable but not remarkably different from before I started. I haven't noticed any noticeable difference in appetite.
If I don't see any changes, I'm going to bump up to 10 mg. of selegiline in a week's time.
Posted by karaS on October 16, 2004, at 0:10:44
In reply to Re: Selegiline Phenylalanine » Terry, posted by sfy on October 2, 2004, at 10:50:06
How are you doing on this now? I'm assuming you've been at the 10 mg. selegiline and either 500 or 1,000 mg. of DLPA for a while.
Did you see the posts on the main board about selegiline being better absorbed when taken in liquid form or sublingually?
-K
Posted by sfy on October 18, 2004, at 12:28:09
In reply to Re: Selegiline Phenylalanine » sfy, posted by karaS on October 16, 2004, at 0:10:44
> How are you doing on this now? I'm assuming you've been at the 10 mg. selegiline and either 500 or 1,000 mg. of DLPA for a while.
>
> Did you see the posts on the main board about selegiline being better absorbed when taken in liquid form or sublingually?
>
> -KI've been on 10 mg. of selegiline and 1000 mg. of DLPA for about a week now. I haven't seen any significant change in mood, energy, or motivation. In fact, as I posted on the main board, I'm having a paradoxical reaction to it in one regard. Rather than increasing my libido, it seems to be having the exact opposite effect coupled with some sexual dysfunction issues. I'm trying to figure out what, if anything, this means in terms of my dopaminergic systems and if it points to some other problem.
I've read the posts about sublingual absorption but haven't yet tried to break up the capsules to see if it makes a difference. I gave it a shot with my DLPA capsules and seemed to have lost have of it in the process. :-S
Posted by karaS on October 18, 2004, at 13:03:59
In reply to Re: Selegiline Phenylalanine » karaS, posted by sfy on October 18, 2004, at 12:28:09
> > How are you doing on this now? I'm assuming you've been at the 10 mg. selegiline and either 500 or 1,000 mg. of DLPA for a while.
> >
> > Did you see the posts on the main board about selegiline being better absorbed when taken in liquid form or sublingually?
> >
> > -K
>
> I've been on 10 mg. of selegiline and 1000 mg. of DLPA for about a week now. I haven't seen any significant change in mood, energy, or motivation. In fact, as I posted on the main board, I'm having a paradoxical reaction to it in one regard. Rather than increasing my libido, it seems to be having the exact opposite effect coupled with some sexual dysfunction issues. I'm trying to figure out what, if anything, this means in terms of my dopaminergic systems and if it points to some other problem.
>
> I've read the posts about sublingual absorption but haven't yet tried to break up the capsules to see if it makes a difference. I gave it a shot with my DLPA capsules and seemed to have lost have of it in the process. :-S
S,How much longer are you going to give it? You must be so discouraged (as was I) after reading about the incredible success others are finding on this combination.
How have you reacted to other dopaminergics? They tend to put me to sleep which has led me to explore why. Although I will say that on 5 mg. of selegiline (without the DLPA), it made me sleepy but many hours later provided a stimulant effect. When I once combined it with a little DLPA, I did get a bit shakey. I then made the mystake of eating a little chocolate and was very shakey. So I think I was getting the PEA effect but the dopamine itself was a problem. Does that make sense? I don't know if I were to take them both together consistently whether I'd get the downregulation I am hoping for... but my gut tells me that I won't.
K
Posted by sfy on October 18, 2004, at 23:07:06
In reply to Re: Selegiline Phenylalanine » sfy, posted by karaS on October 18, 2004, at 13:03:59
> S,
>
> How much longer are you going to give it? You must be so discouraged (as was I) after reading about the incredible success others are finding on this combination.
>
> How have you reacted to other dopaminergics? They tend to put me to sleep which has led me to explore why. Although I will say that on 5 mg. of selegiline (without the DLPA), it made me sleepy but many hours later provided a stimulant effect. When I once combined it with a little DLPA, I did get a bit shakey. I then made the mystake of eating a little chocolate and was very shakey. So I think I was getting the PEA effect but the dopamine itself was a problem. Does that make sense? I don't know if I were to take them both together consistently whether I'd get the downregulation I am hoping for... but my gut tells me that I won't.
>
> KKara,
I'm probably going to give it until my supply runs out (about 2 more weeks). I just wish it made me sleepy. My recurrent insomnia popped back up a couple of months ago (probably a sign of re-emerging depression). I had to go off the mirtazapine I take for insomnia when I started the selegiline. I went through exhausting early morning awakening which just dragged me down. I started some Benadryl which helps a little but it's not as effective as the mirtazapine.
I haven't taken any other pure dopaminergics before. I was on a brief trial of Wellbutrin but I'm not sure we gave it a fair shot (it also seemed to cause sexual problems but other factors might have been at play). I also took Nardil for over 2 years. It helped my social phobia but it's hard to say about other positive effects since I hadn't yet identified my anhedonia/dythymia then. I stopped taking it because of severe insomnia and thought I was well-equipped after CBT to handle things.
My next step is probably Parnate but I'm a little wary despite of (and because of) my experience with Nardil. The insomnia issue is a big deal for me. After Nardil, the insomnia lingered for a long time which is why I was taking the mirtazapine. The diet is also a concern even though I had no problems with it before. But I don't see very many other options right now. (Some have suggested Cymbalta but I don't see it have major impact on my issue based on reports on the main board.)
Posted by karaS on October 18, 2004, at 23:40:38
In reply to Re: Selegiline Phenylalanine » karaS, posted by sfy on October 18, 2004, at 23:07:06
s,
> I'm probably going to give it until my supply runs out (about 2 more weeks). I just wish it made me sleepy. My recurrent insomnia popped back up a couple of months ago (probably a sign of re-emerging depression).
I wish I knew why this works so well for some people and not for others. I guess that goes for all supplements and ADs but I'm particularly intrigued with the strong effect that selegiline can have on some people. I just wish that you and I were in that group.
>I had to go off the mirtazapine I take for insomnia when I started the selegiline. I went through exhausting early morning awakening which just dragged me down. I started some Benadryl which helps a little but it's not as effective as the mirtazapine.
Have you gained a lot of weight from the mirtazapine? I would be terrified to take it for that reason.
> I haven't taken any other pure dopaminergics before. I was on a brief trial of Wellbutrin but I'm not sure we gave it a fair shot (it also seemed to cause sexual problems but other factors might have been at play). I also took Nardil for over 2 years. It helped my social phobia but it's hard to say about other positive effects since I hadn't yet identified my anhedonia/dythymia then. I stopped taking it because of severe insomnia and thought I was well-equipped after CBT to handle things.
I guess CBT helps a lot but sometimes you still can need help from meds or supplements.
> My next step is probably Parnate but I'm a little wary despite of (and because of) my experience with Nardil. The insomnia issue is a big deal for me. After Nardil, the insomnia lingered for a long time which is why I was taking the mirtazapine. The diet is also a concern even though I had no problems with it before. But I don't see very many other options right now. (Some have suggested Cymbalta but I don't see it have major impact on my issue based on reports on the main board.)Isn't Parnate usually more stimulating than Nardil? Have you considered Marplan? Or, getting back to supplements, have you ever tried St. John's Wort? It's supposed to be good for sleep.
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 19, 2004, at 8:54:47
In reply to Re: Selegiline Phenylalanine » karaS, posted by sfy on October 18, 2004, at 23:07:06
> I had to go off the mirtazapine I take for insomnia when I started the selegiline. I went through exhausting early morning awakening which just dragged me down. I started some Benadryl which helps a little but it's not as effective as the mirtazapine.
Mirtazapine withdrawal was the most difficult withdrawal of any I have ever experienced. I'm even including substances of abuse in this statement. It's awful hard to attribute lack of efficacy to the selegiline, IMHO, when mirtazapine withdrawal might be part of the picture.
> I haven't taken any other pure dopaminergics before.
Literally speaking, selegiline is not dopaminergic. It promotes dopaminergic processes, but indirectly, via PEA. I haven't finished my research into the subject, but there are two known substrates for MAO-B that are only degraded by MAO-B, and PEA is one of them. Dopamine is a substrate of MAO-A, too.
> I was on a brief trial of Wellbutrin but I'm not sure we gave it a fair shot (it also seemed to cause sexual problems but other factors might have been at play). I also took Nardil for over 2 years. It helped my social phobia but it's hard to say about other positive effects since I hadn't yet identified my anhedonia/dythymia then. I stopped taking it because of severe insomnia and thought I was well-equipped after CBT to handle things.
>
> My next step is probably Parnate but I'm a little wary despite of (and because of) my experience with Nardil. The insomnia issue is a big deal for me. After Nardil, the insomnia lingered for a long time which is why I was taking the mirtazapine. The diet is also a concern even though I had no problems with it before. But I don't see very many other options right now. (Some have suggested Cymbalta but I don't see it have major impact on my issue based on reports on the main board.)I feel for you, having to try and sort this out for yourself. Have you tried 25 mg trimipramine for sleep? It's also known as Surmontil. Taken one hour before bed, it sets me up well for sleep. At that dose, there's very little risk of interaction with selegiline.
Lar
Posted by sfy on October 19, 2004, at 14:35:49
In reply to Re: Selegiline Phenylalanine » sfy, posted by Larry Hoover on October 19, 2004, at 8:54:47
> Mirtazapine withdrawal was the most difficult withdrawal of any I have ever experienced. I'm even including substances of abuse in this statement. It's awful hard to attribute lack of efficacy to the selegiline, IMHO, when mirtazapine withdrawal might be part of the picture.
I don't think this is the case. I wasn't taking mirtazapine for therapeutic reasons, only 7.5 mg at night for insomnia. And I stopped the mirtazapine two weeks before starting on selegiline just to be safe. When I was first on mirtazapine years ago, I think I was up to 30 mg. a day and didn't have any withdrawal issues when I stopped taking it.
> I feel for you, having to try and sort this out for yourself. Have you tried 25 mg trimipramine for sleep? It's also known as Surmontil. Taken one hour before bed, it sets me up well for sleep. At that dose, there's very little risk of interaction with selegiline.
Right now, the generic Benadryl seems to be helping (mirtazapine's strong antihistamine effect is what helps with insomnia). I don't have much problem falling asleep, it's an issue of early awakening - predictably I'll awaken after only six hours of sleep. And since the selegiline trial seems destined to be a failure, I'm not going to mess with other meds right now.
When I mentioned this to the consulting pdoc who recommended the Parnate, he suggested an anti-psychotic like Risperdal to combat the insomnia. Another reason to give me pause.
Posted by sfy on October 19, 2004, at 14:46:41
In reply to Re: Selegiline Phenylalanine » sfy, posted by karaS on October 18, 2004, at 23:40:38
> Have you gained a lot of weight from the mirtazapine? I would be terrified to take it for that reason.
I was up to, I believe, 30 mg. of mirtazapine at one point but never had any significant weight gain. For insomnia, I only take 7.5 mg but mirtazapine's side effects are sometimes greater at a lower dose.
Interestingly, I seem to have lost some weight while on the selegiline even though I haven't noticed any change in appetite or in my eating habits.
> I guess CBT helps a lot but sometimes you still can need help from meds or supplements.
At that point, I started CBT only after being on Nardil for a while which made it more helpful and effective. In my later experiences with CBT, I seem to hit this plateau or block at some point because I had no interest or outlet in which to apply it because of my dysthymia/anhedonia.
> Isn't Parnate usually more stimulating than Nardil? Have you considered Marplan? Or, getting back to supplements, have you ever tried St. John's Wort? It's supposed to be good for sleep.
Parnate is more stimulating but that is why it's supposed to be more effective for kickstarting me out of this low motivation/disinterest mode I'm in now. I don't really know where Marplan fits into the MAOI spectrum and if I'm going to go that route I'd rather go with the proven commodity first. (I've also thought of hanging on for the Emsam (selegiline) patch but who knows when that will happen).
I'd be wary of combining SJW with other antidepressants and I don't think in and of itself it's considered effective for my specific condition. And if I'm going to take something just to help insomnia, I'll go back to the tried and true (and relatively cheap) mirtazapine.
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 19, 2004, at 14:49:05
In reply to Re: Selegiline Phenylalanine » Larry Hoover, posted by sfy on October 19, 2004, at 14:35:49
> Right now, the generic Benadryl seems to be helping (mirtazapine's strong antihistamine effect is what helps with insomnia). I don't have much problem falling asleep, it's an issue of early awakening - predictably I'll awaken after only six hours of sleep. And since the selegiline trial seems destined to be a failure, I'm not going to mess with other meds right now.
The three most hitaminic meds there are (more so than mirtazapine) are doxepin>trimipramine>amitryptiline.
For some reason, trimipramine works better for me than does doxepin.
Lar
Posted by jboud24 on October 19, 2004, at 15:51:49
In reply to Re: Selegiline Phenylalanine » sfy, posted by Larry Hoover on October 19, 2004, at 14:49:05
Mirtazepine is the strongest anti-histamine on the world market. Its Ki binding value for the histamine H1 receptor is .12. Doxepin comes in second at .20, and remember that the lower the Ki value, the lower the drug plasma level needed for affecting a particular receptor. This means that lower = more potent.
In addition, Remeron and most other tricyclic ADs are sedative due to their strong binding at the serotonin 2a receptor. Remeron also affects the serotonin 2c recptor with equal potency relative to the 2a receptor which is another mechanism for sedation. Trazodone, for instance, provides sedation almost intirely through antagonism of the 2a receptor, and the same is true of Serzone.
I hope this helps.
Justin
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 19, 2004, at 16:01:00
In reply to Re: Selegiline Phenylalanine, posted by jboud24 on October 19, 2004, at 15:51:49
> Mirtazepine is the strongest anti-histamine on the world market. Its Ki binding value for the histamine H1 receptor is .12. Doxepin comes in second at .20, and remember that the lower the Ki value, the lower the drug plasma level needed for affecting a particular receptor. This means that lower = more potent.
I had seen tabulated figures that put the tricyclics I mentioned on top. I don't mind being corrected....do you have the source for those data?
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 19, 2004, at 16:13:29
In reply to Re: Selegiline Phenylalanine, posted by jboud24 on October 19, 2004, at 15:51:49
> Mirtazepine is the strongest anti-histamine on the world market. Its Ki binding value for the histamine H1 receptor is .12. Doxepin comes in second at .20, and remember that the lower the Ki value, the lower the drug plasma level needed for affecting a particular receptor. This means that lower = more potent.
I just checked the database at: http://kidb.cwru.edu/pdsp.php
Mirtazapine Ki is 0.50 nanomolar. Doxepin is 0.09 nanomolar. Surprised me to find that the lowest one is cyproheptadine, at 0.06.
Trimipramine is higher than mirtazapine, in this table.
Lar
Posted by jboud24 on October 20, 2004, at 0:37:47
In reply to Re: Selegiline Phenylalanine » jboud24, posted by Larry Hoover on October 19, 2004, at 16:13:29
I cant find a ref to back up my assertion and I've spent over 2 hours looking for where I found those numbers at. But despite that, I definitely recall seeing those two numbers and being like wow, because remeron is a medication I do take. I remember thinking to myself, "They (organon pharma) should really market this stuff as an anti-histamine." It totally alleviated my own allergy to cats, which was amazing for me.
But that ki database you found was amazing. However, it lists 4 different values for doxepin's binding to the human H-1 receptor: .09, .16, .32, and .49 nm.
For Remeron, the only value listed was .508, but that was for a rat brain. Too bad they don't have info on binding to the human brain.Anyways, good site, sorry I cant get the ref.
Justin
Posted by jboud24 on October 20, 2004, at 0:44:50
In reply to Re: Selegiline Phenylalanine » jboud24, posted by Larry Hoover on October 19, 2004, at 16:13:29
Thought this was interesting too. The Ki binding value on that website for doxepin at rat brain histamine-1 receptors is .70 nm. A better comparison would be rat brain to rat brain, and if you do that...
Remeron is stronger, haahhahah.They are very close though either way. But I cant say I've ever taken doxepin, so I cant relate to its sedative actions, but if I were a betting man, my money would be on remeron due to its 5-HT2a/c blocking component as well.
Justin
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 20, 2004, at 7:47:10
In reply to Re: Selegiline Phenylalanine, posted by jboud24 on October 20, 2004, at 0:44:50
> Thought this was interesting too. The Ki binding value on that website for doxepin at rat brain histamine-1 receptors is .70 nm. A better comparison would be rat brain to rat brain, and if you do that...
> Remeron is stronger, haahhahah.
>
> They are very close though either way. But I cant say I've ever taken doxepin, so I cant relate to its sedative actions, but if I were a betting man, my money would be on remeron due to its 5-HT2a/c blocking component as well.
>
> JustinI'm glad you're treating this with a sense of humour. The way I use tables like that is to consider a list of candidate drugs. You still end up having to "do the experiment".
Doxepin for me was a dud. However, trimipramine sets me up nicely for sleep. Mirtazapine worked well for sleep, initially, but my shrink pushed me along to 45 mg, where I was over-stimulated. Went off it (horrible horrible rebound insomnia....I thought I'd never sleep again), then months later, tried it as a sleep augment. Tried every possible low dose.....no effect on sleep. My brain seems like it is simply rejecting the mirtazapine. Same with diphenhydramine. Worked absolutely marvellously, for three days. Tolerance rapidly developed thereafter. Now, even if I haven't taken any in months, it still does nada. <shrug>
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 20, 2004, at 7:49:34
In reply to Re: Selegiline Phenylalanine, posted by jboud24 on October 20, 2004, at 0:37:47
> But that ki database you found was amazing. However, it lists 4 different values for doxepin's binding to the human H-1 receptor: .09, .16, .32, and .49 nm.
Ya, but the comparator ligands aren't all the same.
It is an incredible reference site. Almost overwhelmingly detailed. There are hotlinks to the refs, some of which are quite informative.
Lar
Posted by jboud24 on October 20, 2004, at 13:21:30
In reply to Re: Selegiline Phenylalanine » jboud24, posted by Larry Hoover on October 20, 2004, at 7:49:34
True about the hot ligands. I was considering that while I was looking over the database last night. I must have spent like 2 hours looking up Ki values for different drugs. That site has been permanately bookmarked on my computer, and it will be an invaluable tool in the future no doubt.
I hear you about the remeron pooping out for sleep. It has done that to some extent to me too, although if I go a day without it, I'm slammed with insomnia bad.
BTW, you did find remeron stimulating, huh? I've gone up tp 60mg trying to 'find' that a-2-antagonism effect to no avail. I weigh 185 pounds though so maybe I metabolize quick or need more drug to achieve that effect.
Thanks Larry, your posts have been most informative.
Justin
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