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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Francesco on November 24, 2003, at 14:43:33
Why search on Google if there's Larry ? ;-)
If I experience trouble with sleeping with L-tyrosine which is the best supplement in your opinion to add on ? Dsch suggested Magnesium also because I could have "limbic" problem too. Is it also useful for sleeping ? Which kind ? Thanks !
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 25, 2003, at 6:58:55
In reply to questions for larry, posted by Francesco on November 24, 2003, at 14:43:33
> Why search on Google if there's Larry ? ;-)
Why, indeed? Moreover, you can't query google using normal language questions.
> If I experience trouble with sleeping with L-tyrosine which is the best supplement in your opinion to add on ?
Magnesium, 1/2 hour before bed.
Tryptophan or 5-HTP, same.
Melatonin, 0.5 mg, same.
Some people find herbs like valerian or hops help, but they don't work on me, so I haven't really paid close attention.> Dsch suggested Magnesium also because I could have "limbic" problem too. Is it also useful for sleeping ? Which kind ? Thanks !
Magnesium glycinate seems to be a favourite. Ron Hill uses magnesium every night for sleep induction.
Dose is variable. You've just got to do the experiment. 200-300 mg of elemental magnesium would be the starting dose, increased if tolerated, to perhaps 600 mg/night. The thing is, magnesium salts are laxative at higher doses, and the particular dose at which that occurs is different in different people. So, if you get diarrhea, cut the dose to 3/4 of what you tried, and if that's tolerated, stick to that for a week, then go back up. Your body has to "learn" that magnesium intake is increased, to make use of it properly.
Lar
Posted by DSCH on November 25, 2003, at 12:30:15
In reply to questions for larry, posted by Francesco on November 24, 2003, at 14:43:33
> Dsch suggested Magnesium also because I could have "limbic" problem too. Is it also useful for sleeping ? Which kind ? Thanks !
I never suggested magnesium to you for that particular reason. Be careful now! :-o
Posted by DSCH on November 25, 2003, at 13:29:23
In reply to questions for larry, posted by Francesco on November 24, 2003, at 14:43:33
Remember this one, Francesco? ;-)
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030902/msgs/256921.htmlOur advice to you is dependent upon how clear and complete your feedback is.
I should have pressed you for more information on how tyrosine affected you. The benzo was also a surprise to me.
Posted by Francesco on November 25, 2003, at 15:57:32
In reply to Re: questions for larry » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 25, 2003, at 13:29:23
> Our advice to you is dependent upon how clear and complete your feedback is.You're right. I sometimes used Psycho-Babble to express my feelings rather than to provide or asking information, or at least I mixed the two.
Now I understand that this can be harmful for me and for the others who read my posts. I'll try to pay more attention in the future ... If I'm excited or depressed maybe call of a friend or have a walk can be more useful in the long run.
I'm a bit ashamed now of the posts I have been posted, not to talk about private mails. Sorry.
> I should have pressed you for more information on how tyrosine affected you. The benzo was also a surprise to me.Ok. Tyrosine targets some of my adhd syntoms.
It helps to with organization and procrastination, to say any.To make an example yesterday I was able to read a map of my city to explain my father how to drive to reach a place and we were also late for the appointment. Normally I don't even try to read a map. When I'm under the affect of it I can decide a list of things I *have to* do and make them in sequence without being distracted. For ex. going to a shop and then to another and then to another one.
There comes the overfocusing part. I experienced this problem with Ritalin for the very first time and to some extent also with tyrosine. I begin to think to something so intensely that all the other things disappear. One week ago I was following a graphology lesson and I was writing what the teacher was saying and thinking to something else at the same time. The teacher said something to me but I didn't understand she was talking to me in the first ten seconds or so.
I didn't have never experienced this kind of problems when I was on Anafranil or without meds. "Normally" I'm reactive to external stimuli, my thinking and my speech are fast (even if they don't usually point to a particular direction ...)
Another thing that happen when I'm on tyrosine is that I become interested in "facts" (how to do things and how things must be done), a reaction similar to the one I had on Ritalin. I tend to ask people things about facts, rather than how they feel or "unessential" things.
Sorry for this very long post. I'd like to add a couple of things but I'm getting stuck so I think it's more convenient that I quit it now : ) Bye !
Posted by Francesco on November 25, 2003, at 16:09:08
In reply to Re: questions for larry » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 25, 2003, at 12:30:15
> I never suggested magnesium to you for that particular reason. Be careful now! :-o
Sorry for the mis-quotation. You are right. You have never suggested magnesium for that reason.
Posted by Francesco on November 25, 2003, at 16:40:09
In reply to Re: questions for larry » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 25, 2003, at 13:29:23
> The benzo was also a surprise to me.
Yeah, I did not mention the benzo : /
I know benzo can be complicate the picture ... I'm not using them to target anxiety problems but only to sleep. In the last weeks (I can't remember exactly how many) I'm experiencing insomnia, the kind of insomnia you have when you have not so much trouble in getting asleep but you wake up 5 or 6 hour later (tired).
I have the impression all this has begun some day *before* my short Ritalin trial. I attribute this to the fact that I began again to go to university and trying to do normal things, and this required me to wake up early in the morning.
My next mental step was to think that for being in a great shape I had to go early to bed, which I was not used to. When I "have to" do something I get easily stuck. And I got stuck.
I have dismissed coffee, my next step should be quit benzos to undestand how suplements affect me.
That's the reason why I'm looking for something else to sleep : ) Thanks for all, I hope this time I have been I little clearer : )
Posted by DSCH on November 25, 2003, at 21:17:26
In reply to tyrosine answers : ) (long but detailed) » DSCH, posted by Francesco on November 25, 2003, at 15:57:32
> > Our advice to you is dependent upon how clear and complete your feedback is.
>
> You're right. I sometimes used Psycho-Babble to express my feelings rather than to provide or asking information, or at least I mixed the two.
> Now I understand that this can be harmful for me and for the others who read my posts. I'll try to pay more attention in the future ... If I'm excited or depressed maybe call of a friend or have a walk can be more useful in the long run.
> I'm a bit ashamed now of the posts I have been posted, not to talk about private mails. Sorry.No need to feel ashamed. Getting things a bit mixed up is part of what the malady is all about isn't it?
You can mix support with calls for advice on this part of the board to an extent. PB Social is where you can post if you are just looking for support.
Don't get too down on yourself about it. Just consider it instead a reminder that sometimes you can confuse us out here. ;-)
> Ok. Tyrosine targets some of my adhd syntoms.
> It helps to with organization and procrastination, to say any.
>
> To make an example yesterday I was able to read a map of my city to explain my father how to drive to reach a place and we were also late for the appointment. Normally I don't even try to read a map. When I'm under the affect of it I can decide a list of things I *have to* do and make them in sequence without being distracted. For ex. going to a shop and then to another and then to another one.
>
> There comes the overfocusing part. I experienced this problem with Ritalin for the very first time and to some extent also with tyrosine. I begin to think to something so intensely that all the other things disappear. One week ago I was following a graphology lesson and I was writing what the teacher was saying and thinking to something else at the same time. The teacher said something to me but I didn't understand she was talking to me in the first ten seconds or so.
>
> I didn't have never experienced this kind of problems when I was on Anafranil or without meds. "Normally" I'm reactive to external stimuli, my thinking and my speech are fast (even if they don't usually point to a particular direction ...)OK, in the past you have said Anafranil has made you more like "Overfocused ADD" than "Inattentive-type ADD" (which is what you are like off-meds/supplements). Am I thinking correctly that Ritalin and tyrosine make you even more "Overfocused" than Anafranil did?
Or is overfocus on Anafranil of a different form altogether than overfocus on Ritalin/tyrosine?
> Another thing that happen when I'm on tyrosine is that I become interested in "facts" (how to do things and how things must be done), a reaction similar to the one I had on Ritalin. I tend to ask people things about facts, rather than how they feel or "unessential" things.
This is called 'being male'. ;-) Just kidding. Maybe this is an indicator of serotonin drop as the empathogenic drugs like MDMA (XTC) are serotonergic.
How would compare the effects of tyrosine to those of tryptophan?
Have you tried tyrosine in the morning and tryptophan at night? This might help even things out. Trytophan normally helps with sleep (but then again you are not normal!). :-)
Posted by francesco on November 26, 2003, at 3:41:52
In reply to tyrosine/tryptophan » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 25, 2003, at 21:17:26
> OK, in the past you have said Anafranil has made you more like "Overfocused ADD" than "Inattentive-type ADD" (which is what you are like off-meds/supplements)> Am I thinking correctly that Ritalin and tyrosine make you even more "Overfocused" than Anafranil did?
> Or is overfocus on Anafranil of a different form altogether than overfocus on Ritalin/tyrosine?
Both are correct. But the second is more correct.
I don't think anymore that Anafranil made me "overfocused" in the proper sense of the term now that I know what "overfocusing" is.
I want also to correct my self about the things I said on Anafranil. When I posted about the Anafranil I didn't have in mind what happened after some months of Anafranil but also what happened after some day.I think that all my arguments were vitiated by the fact that I didn't want to come back to Anafranil so I was not objective at all. I'm not sure anymore that I got overfocused in any sense of the term when I was on it after some months.
It's difficult anyway to remember because the last period I was on Anafranil for a consistent period of time was three years ago.
Maybe what I can save of what I have said is that I got stuck into (studish) things but I liked it. I was perfectionist with I also the weapons to tend to "perfection". That's the reason why I talked about OCD-personality-like.
I save also the social-phobia-like part. It was hard to admit that Anafranil after some months made wonders for the concentration part of my problems because I was scared about the idea of having to consider it again.
I save also sex-avoidance and weight gain but these are common side-effects. I will return on it anyway.
Thanks for answering me all these things and remember me what I've said in past. It's very helpful.
> This is called 'being male'. ;-) Just kidding. Maybe this is an indicator of serotonin drop as the empathogenic drugs like MDMA (XTC) are serotonergic.
You're totally right !!! I feel more 'male' in the sense you were kidding about !
I have never been so 'male' in my whole life.Why did I experience serotonin drop ? I mean ... did you mean that 'pumping up' dopamine (with L-tyrsone) can drop serotonin or something else ?
> How would compare the effects of tyrosine to those of tryptophan?
Difficult question. What I can say for sure is that triptophan makes me depressed. Maybe because I consider my problems in a more objective light. I start to think that I'm doing anything for my PHD and that I have to come back to TCA and things like this. But I'm not sure psycological axpects can explain all the depression feelings I have with serotoninergic meds. I will come back on differences between tripthophan and tyrosine when my ideas about them will get clearer.
> Have you tried tyrosine in the morning and tryptophan at night? This might help even things out. Trytophan normally helps with sleep (but then again you are not normal!). :-)
Ok, I have never tried this despite you're previous suggestion but I think it's worth of a trial. I will let you know how the experiment goes.
The things that bothers here and now is that I took tyrosine an hour ago and I have a sense of pression in the right ear like yesterday. Yesterday I measured my blood pressure and it was normal. What was not normal were my heart-rate-pulses. 90-something : /
Does Ginko helps also with this ? I'm not sure anyway tyrosine is the only culprit because ...
I took a Xanax yesterday evening
I smoke 20 or more strong cigarettes per day.
I'm taking also Malvapur (malva sylvestris) for urological problems.
Yesterday evening I took also 225 mg of Magnesium.
Tommorrow morning I took also a cup of coffe.
Posted by Francesco on November 26, 2003, at 3:53:15
In reply to Re: tyrosine/tryptophan, posted by francesco on November 26, 2003, at 3:41:52
I have not been taking multivitaminic in this period because I'm waiting to find a 100% multivitaminic. Maybe this was not a good idea.
So I will take the multivitaminic I have 'till I find the other.Tyrosine makes me very hungry after an hour I take it. I was not used to have breakfast and it's not easy here in Italy to have a breakfast witouth carbs. What do you suggest ? (if I eat eggs or bacon at breakfast my mother will call the police ;-)
Posted by DSCH on November 27, 2003, at 21:58:36
In reply to just another couple of things : ) , posted by Francesco on November 26, 2003, at 3:53:15
> I have not been taking multivitaminic in this period because I'm waiting to find a 100% multivitaminic. Maybe this was not a good idea.
> So I will take the multivitaminic I have 'till I find the other.Yes, even if it is not ideal it is better than nothing. Keep looking for something that has B3.
Here are some more articles I think you might find helpful.
http://www.offshorepharmacy.net/ias-tiredness.htm
http://www.offshorepharmacy.net/attention.htm
Here is the multi I am taking now. I am taking it three times a day rather than recommended twice.
http://www.nutraceutical.com/search/view_product.cfm?product_index=4744
> Tyrosine makes me very hungry after an hour I take it. I was not used to have breakfast and it's not easy here in Italy to have a breakfast witouth carbs. What do you suggest ? (if I eat eggs or bacon at breakfast my mother will call the police ;-)
Here in the US one can easily get small sausage links that you can microwave in a few minutes.
Some tossed salad and non-caffinated tea very lightly sweetened goes good with it. :-)
Posted by francesco on November 28, 2003, at 2:01:11
In reply to Re: just another couple of things : ) » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 27, 2003, at 21:58:36
> Yes, even if it is not ideal it is better than nothing. Keep looking for something that has B3.
The multivitaminic I'm taking should have B3. Isn't Niacin another name for B3 ?
... I compared the amount of vitamins I'm taking with the quantity suggested in your article. It came out that I would have to take swallows something like ten capsules per day just to reach out the minimum suggested : o Thanks for the article, it seems I have to find something better.
> Here in the US one can easily get small sausage links that you can microwave in a few minutes.
>
> Some tossed salad and non-caffinated tea very lightly sweetened goes good with it. :-)Thanks DSCH. Is it 'normal' to have that hunger after just 500mg of Tyrosine ? I should add that I'm much more oriented to take triptophan ... I found it useful to some extent if I don't take more than 50mg per day. The days I took 100mg I got mild depressed.
This brought to my mind my over-reaction to SSRIs. In particular I had wonderful results in (reading) concentration taking 4 mg of Paxil which resulted in getting manic after 40mg. I have never thought about the possibility to take SSRIs at very low doses ... Of course I would have to lie to my psychiatrist if I don't want him to take me a lesson on the placebo effect ;-)
Therefore my plan is to continue with tripthopan and see what happens. I have noticed for sure on 500-1000mg of tyrosine what someone on this thread called "hardening of personality", so I'm a bit reluctant to take it again. But maybe trying to add it after a week or so of tripthopan could be worth of a shot.
I have mentioned to my herborist/pharmacist my concentration' problems and the fact that I took "Prozac and stuff like that" in the past. He was not particularly happy in learning this (maybe he's afraid that if I went bonkers he could have some trouble).
Anyway, he suggested me enthusiastically the combination of L-glutammate and ginko (and he seemed to know what he was talking about ;-). Have you ever taken l-glutammate ?
Posted by JLx on November 28, 2003, at 9:15:23
In reply to my multivitaminic sucks ;-) » DSCH, posted by francesco on November 28, 2003, at 2:01:11
>
> Anyway, he suggested me enthusiastically the combination of L-glutammate and ginko (and he seemed to know what he was talking about ;-). Have you ever taken l-glutammate ?I have taken L-glutamine based on a recommendation from a book on natural approaches to depression and I was totally stressed out in one day, and even woke up the next morning feeling suicidal. Then I took the amino acid taurine and felt fine again.
You may react completely differently, of course; just letting you know of my experience. I have also taken glutamine in the past without this reaction.
Posted by DSCH on November 28, 2003, at 14:50:58
In reply to my multivitaminic sucks ;-) » DSCH, posted by francesco on November 28, 2003, at 2:01:11
> The multivitaminic I'm taking should have B3. Isn't Niacin another name for B3 ?
Yes. Larry will say niacinamide is the preferrable form, but niacin is better than no.
> Thanks DSCH. Is it 'normal' to have that hunger after just 500mg of Tyrosine ?I don't know. I don't recall that happening to me. I'm not sure if there's anything interesting to take from that or not.
Your great senstivity to both tryptophan and several of the SSRIs still makes me think of terms of what Amen found for temporal lobe dysfunctions. Have you taken his test lately?
> Anyway, he suggested me enthusiastically the combination of L-glutammate and ginko (and he seemed to know what he was talking about ;-). Have you ever taken l-glutammate ?
Glutmate is the chief excitory neurotransmitter. It is also strangely enough the precursor to GABA, the chief inhibitory neurotransmitter.
I have taken protein drinks that had glutamate, but never glutamate alone.
Posted by Francesco on November 28, 2003, at 17:12:35
In reply to B3, tryptophan/SSRI sensitivity, and glutamate » francesco, posted by DSCH on November 28, 2003, at 14:50:58
> Your great senstivity to both tryptophan and several of the SSRIs still makes me think of terms of what Amen found for temporal lobe dysfunctions. Have you taken his test lately?
I didn't but I read the temporal-lobe profile.
It doesn't fit with me but it does if I refer to I use to be on serotoninergic meds. What did Amen found for temporal lobe dysfunction ? (I ordered his books on Amazon and I can hardly wait ;-)Today I saw my psychiatrist ... he still persists in saying that an anticonvulsivant should be the first step ... and this is what Amen suggests for temporal lobe adhd ! Your intuitions are very similar to my psychiatrist's, I would say that you have to be happy about it but I don't want to offend you with this comparison ;-)
I told him also about my experiments with aminos and supplements. He seemed interested and he had nothing to object to tyrosine, triptophan or epa/dha but I said that there is no way that pospoliphides can help because of the BBB.
Any comment or confutation ?
Posted by DSCH on November 28, 2003, at 19:19:13
In reply to temporal lobe, my psychatrist and pospholipides » DSCH, posted by Francesco on November 28, 2003, at 17:12:35
> > Your great senstivity to both tryptophan and several of the SSRIs still makes me think of terms of what Amen found for temporal lobe dysfunctions. Have you taken his test lately?
>
> I didn't but I read the temporal-lobe profile.
> It doesn't fit with me but it does if I refer to I use to be on serotoninergic meds.I think those are problems that are normally masked by the others you have, maybe.
>What did Amen found for temporal lobe dysfunction ? (I ordered his books on Amazon and I can hardly wait ;-)
Basically I have keyed in on his statement that serotonergic thing tend to aggravate these kinds of problems.
> Today I saw my psychiatrist ... he still persists in saying that an anticonvulsivant should be the first step ... and this is what Amen suggests for temporal lobe adhd ! Your intuitions are very similar to my psychiatrist's, I would say that you have to be happy about it but I don't want to offend you with this comparison ;-)
:-)
Has he mentioned a specific drug? I think it could at least be worth a trial.
> I told him also about my experiments with aminos and supplements. He seemed interested and he had nothing to object to tyrosine, triptophan or epa/dha but I said that there is no way that pospoliphides can help because of the BBB.
> Any comment or confutation ?Can't say. Larry should know. :-)
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 30, 2003, at 7:45:14
In reply to temporal lobe, my psychatrist and pospholipides » DSCH, posted by Francesco on November 28, 2003, at 17:12:35
> I told him also about my experiments with aminos and supplements. He seemed interested and he had nothing to object to tyrosine, triptophan or epa/dha but I said that there is no way that pospoliphides can help because of the BBB.
> Any comment or confutation ?I'm glad your pdoc doesn't object to food supplements. It's not like you're taking herb-based drugs....
What I can't comprehend is his position that phospholipids are blocked by the BBB. I can't say whether the intact phospholipids are carried in the blood (they are created in huge amounts by liver, using the blood coming up from the intestines (portal veinous flow) which is full of all the nutrients), or if they're broken down and reassembled later....but it is a purely physical process...
No active transport into brain tissue is required for fat-soluble substances....the membranes that surround all brain cells have cholesterol embedded in a fatty membrane (the so-called lipid bylayer (lipids are fats)). And cholesterol floats around in the blood with dissolved fatty stuff in little blobs....A fatty cholesterol blob in the blood bumps into a fatty brain cell membrane, and lipid components just move naturally from one fatty place to the other....
That said, there are receptors for phosphatidylinositol and perhaps for phosphatidylserine, and there might be uptake pumps for both.....
Anyway, I don't understand what your shrink is thinking....
Lar
Posted by Francesco on December 1, 2003, at 10:28:17
In reply to Re: temporal lobe, my psychatrist and pospholipides » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 28, 2003, at 19:19:13
Amen doesn't say too much about the suplement needed for Ring of Fire Adhd. He suggests GABA & fish oil. I have some doubt about fish oil because it makes me hypo and some doubt about GABA because a lot of fellows here say it's of no use or that you have take large amount of it.
Moreover tripthophan is making me depressed just like the SSRIs did and my mind is not in the best condition to make choices : /Could be L-glutammate worth of a trial ? I mean ... it's a precursor of GABA and it's stimulating, so, optimistically speaking, it could fix some of my pfc problems and some of my temporal problems, couldn't it ?
Posted by DSCH on December 2, 2003, at 17:48:40
In reply to amen ring of fire adhd » DSCH, posted by Francesco on December 1, 2003, at 10:28:17
> Amen doesn't say too much about the suplement needed for Ring of Fire Adhd. He suggests GABA & fish oil. I have some doubt about fish oil because it makes me hypo and some doubt about GABA because a lot of fellows here say it's of no use or that you have take large amount of it.
Like Larry suggests, perhaps sticking it out with the oil for a while will result in lowered sensitivity to it.
> Moreover tripthophan is making me depressed just like the SSRIs did and my mind is not in the best condition to make choices : /
OK, if you're pretty sure it is the tryptophan doing it rather than anything else, then, by all means stop.
> Could be L-glutammate worth of a trial ? I mean ... it's a precursor of GABA and it's stimulating, so, optimistically speaking, it could fix some of my pfc problems and some of my temporal problems, couldn't it ?
I don't know. I would be inclined to look elsewhere but then I don't think I have "cured" myself just yet, so who knows?
Posted by DSCH on December 2, 2003, at 23:25:37
In reply to amen ring of fire adhd » DSCH, posted by Francesco on December 1, 2003, at 10:28:17
> Could be L-glutammate worth of a trial ? I mean ... it's a precursor of GABA and it's stimulating, so, optimistically speaking, it could fix some of my pfc problems and some of my temporal problems, couldn't it ?
I would try L-theanine and/or L-pyroglutamic acid before L-glutamate.
This is the end of the thread.
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