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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 35 to 59 of 136. Go back in thread:
Posted by Happyflower on January 18, 2007, at 9:07:57
In reply to Re: Well what if? » Happyflower, posted by justyourlaugh on January 18, 2007, at 8:46:15
that any person that feels accused by my posts, is a coincedense and I am sorry if they feel accused or put down for that isn't my intention at all. I just want something better to be down in these situations, because what we do have is not working to protect the innocent.
I also feel like since i didn't report it in the exact perfect way, doesn't mean it should be ignored and nothing done about it. It just seems like I have to jump through hoops in a perfect way or my issue is unvalidated.
Posted by one woman cine on January 18, 2007, at 9:18:53
In reply to Re: something better needs to be done-yes, posted by Deneb on January 17, 2007, at 23:50:04
Deneb,
"Can someone point out to me the words that are provocative and distressing? I want the actual quotes. I do believe I was civil. Even if they really are provocative and distressing, it's not uncivil to be provocative or distressing. "
I'm not going to go back and find the post where I said I felt provoked, you can do that - I felt you undertood you were being provocative, can you correct me if I am wrong? I also feel I spent some effort on trying to understand you and not attack you and you "promised to call your pdoc" & then you didn't. I am disappointed. What do you think you will do differently next time?
One can follow the letter of the law, but not the spirit of it...
& I also think you asked the question, do posters feel provoked or distressed by reading "xx" post that is provoking and distressing - the responses to these posts have not been positive and I feel you understand this too.
What do you think you'd like to do differently?
Posted by one woman cine on January 18, 2007, at 9:22:04
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, something better needs to be done, posted by Deneb on January 17, 2007, at 23:29:41
"I think feedback is good, but it needs to be constructive: What should I do versus what should I not do? "
The feedback I gave you (to call your pdoc when you OD) was rejected. You did not do that.
I can only offer feedback, you have to make the decision to choose it.
Posted by Dinah on January 18, 2007, at 9:28:44
In reply to Well what if?, posted by Happyflower on January 18, 2007, at 7:06:34
Dr. Bob has specifically said that he does and will allow posts with suicidal content.
I do not believe the posts you are referring to fall under the new guidelines, and apparently neither does Dr. Bob, since he passed over the board without comment.
I say things about my therapist on Babble that I wouldn't be allowed to say about another Babbler. It doesn't fall under the civility guidelines. The same thing applies here.
You could try to convince Dr. Bob to disallow all talk of suicidal behaviors, but that is a separate subject.
Posted by Happyflower on January 18, 2007, at 9:35:03
In reply to Re: Well what if? » Happyflower, posted by Dinah on January 18, 2007, at 9:28:44
Dinah,
I am not saying that sucide behavior shouldn't be allowed. And I think this is the way my orginal post became confused with a lot of other issues and then mine got ignored because of it.I am only writing about when the sucide is used as a threat to another babbler if they do not comply with the sucidal person. This is the issue, a THREAT AGAINST ANOTHER BABBLER, not sucide itself.
I belive if someone is sucidal and post, I would try to help them the best I can because I care about people. BUT when it is used as a threat against me if I don't do something they ask, then that is totally different.
So I don't want this issue to get mixed up with other ones again. This is different.
Posted by one woman cine on January 18, 2007, at 9:35:35
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, something better needs to be done, posted by Glydin on January 17, 2007, at 22:38:25
"To me, it boils down to accountibility for our behavior.....and it is about expected behavior on the boards and their consequences, it's not personal.... "
This is a wonderful statement - I have been told by my therapist, in dealing with situations that feel negative to me - that every person, no matter mentally ill or not, nned to be accountable for their behavior.
There are consequences as well as accountability. Unfortunately, we can't make people accountable, but we can issue consequences - whether that takes the form of stepping back and not involving yourself, or severing the relationship - I have found that has worked with several "crazy-makers" in my life.
There is less and less room in my life for unhealthy situations and things that trigger me. I don't need to go there and am less and less inclined to do so.
But I really liked your post. Thanks.
Posted by Dinah on January 18, 2007, at 9:43:41
In reply to Re: Well what if? » Dinah, posted by Happyflower on January 18, 2007, at 9:35:03
Then the answer is settled. Dr. Bob says tht saying tht it falls under the do not pressure or do not post anything that leads other Babblers to feel accused or put down.
Wasn't it you who asked about mothers? My understanding is that civility guidelines don't apply to mothers unless they are known to be Babblers. (Thank heavens. And no, my mother does not Babble.)
Posted by one woman cine on January 18, 2007, at 9:44:14
In reply to Re: Well what if? » Dinah, posted by Happyflower on January 18, 2007, at 9:35:03
Glad to see you posting - although we have not seen eye to eye on some issues; I agree with the basic notion of "suicidal talk" versus "suicidal talk with explicit coercion"
If you don't - I will statements (wishingstar's - thank you for that phrase) feels coercive to me. (BTW - suicidal threats in my experience are almost always corecive - this isn't because the person is bad, it's because it's a coping strategy).
The problem with threats or "attempts" is that it falls off the curve at some point and the person succeeds, although death was not the intended end result. This is tragic, but all too common.
So what to do? I'm not sure...
Posted by Happyflower on January 18, 2007, at 9:52:05
In reply to Re: Well what if? » Happyflower, posted by Dinah on January 18, 2007, at 9:43:41
>> Wasn't it you who asked about mothers? My understanding is that civility guidelines don't apply to mothers unless they are known to be Babblers. (Thank heavens. And no, my mother does not Babble.)
Well how do we know that our mothers aren't on the site? Or how do we know that it isn't offending other mothers who read about it? We have protection from saying things against the president, and all other kinds of stuff, and the president probably doesn't read here. So the rules are not clear, I believe. But like I said the issue is sucide threats against another babbler. I know the rules now, I just think they need to be better and different. That is why I am posting about this.
Posted by Dinah on January 18, 2007, at 10:05:16
In reply to Re: Well what if? » Dinah, posted by Happyflower on January 18, 2007, at 9:52:05
The rules about the president or religions are for the benefit of the supporters of the president or members of the religion, not for the benefit of them specifically.
If you had to follow the civility guidelines when discussing your therapist or your husband at all times, would Babble be a helpful place for you? Would you wish Dr. Bob to issue PBC's or blocks?
Posted by Happyflower on January 18, 2007, at 10:19:21
In reply to Re: Well what if? » Happyflower, posted by Dinah on January 18, 2007, at 10:05:16
I get your point, and actually we shouldn't probably be allowed to diss our T or DH either to be honest. I always wondered why that was allowed anyways even though it is helpful to get it all out. But didn't Dr. Bob say himself that this isn't the place "get it all out", not exact quote I know.
But I am going to going back to the orginal issue I would like to see changes. What can we do better when a babbler threatenes sucide against another memember. Don't mean to be a pain. In fact, I wasn't going to come back due to this issue, but I am going to try to change things before I give up totally and I am trying my best to be civil. ;-)
Posted by Happyflower on January 18, 2007, at 10:28:07
In reply to Re: Well what if? » Dinah, posted by Happyflower on January 18, 2007, at 10:19:21
I think the more Dr. Bob see's that it bothers a lot of babblers, the more likely he might change things for the better. (maybe wishful thinking, I know)
Well I HAVE A DREAM! Well, okay, don't want to get carried away, now.
I really think talking about this will help and that is what I am trying to do.
Posted by ClearSkies on January 18, 2007, at 10:30:13
In reply to Re: Well what if? » Dinah, posted by Happyflower on January 18, 2007, at 9:52:05
> >> Wasn't it you who asked about mothers? My understanding is that civility guidelines don't apply to mothers unless they are known to be Babblers. (Thank heavens. And no, my mother does not Babble.)
>
> Well how do we know that our mothers aren't on the site? Or how do we know that it isn't offending other mothers who read about it? We have protection from saying things against the president, and all other kinds of stuff, and the president probably doesn't read here. So the rules are not clear, I believe. But like I said the issue is sucide threats against another babbler. I know the rules now, I just think they need to be better and different. That is why I am posting about this.
>
What if we post about traumas we have suffered at the hands of others, and they may be posters here themselves? I don't think that the analogy of posting about our mothers and have them possibly be posters here as well would be any different.There was a very worthwhile thread long ago, initiated by the esteemed Larry Hoover, that addressed trigger notices on posts. I don't understand why, if certain subjects are found triggering, those posts are not avoided. Isn't that the point of putting a trigger notice in the heading in the first place? I think that posts regarding suicide would certainly fall under this guideline. If posts regarding suicide are triggering, then the solution would be to not read them at all.
Surely this is the best protection we can give each other?ClearSkies
Posted by Dinah on January 18, 2007, at 10:34:24
In reply to Re: Well what if? » Dinah, posted by Happyflower on January 18, 2007, at 10:19:21
> What can we do better when a babbler threatenes sucide against another memember.
I guess I haven't been very helpful because I thought I had posted several times that Dr. Bob has already made the changes you requested to address this issue.
So I'll bow out.
Posted by Happyflower on January 18, 2007, at 10:39:44
In reply to Re: Well what if? ***TRIGGER CSA, SUICIDE** » Happyflower, posted by ClearSkies on January 18, 2007, at 10:30:13
well I am again not talking about regular sucide posts, they don't trigger me, even though I know it does for others.
I am talking about someone threatening sucide if another babbler doesn' t comply to the wishes of the sucidal poster. I am not just talking about posts, I am also talking about doing it in chat and doing through babblemail.
Suicide posts I believe are a good thing, and good way to receive some support and help, as long as they are warned with a trigger for other who it does upset. But again, I am talking abotu direct threats against another babbler. Like for example I said to you, I am going to kill myself if you don't post to me clearskies. Or if we are taking in chat and you are ignoring me for your own protection, and I say I am going to kill myself if you don't respond to me Clearskies. OR I send you babblemails that say,you really make me upset that you are ignoring me, it makes me want to OD. This is what I am talking about. Do you see the difference?
Posted by Happyflower on January 18, 2007, at 10:42:11
In reply to Re: Well what if? » Happyflower, posted by Dinah on January 18, 2007, at 10:34:24
I don't mean to upset you Dinah, I do see your posts about the changes, and I do appreciate that. All I am trying to say is that it isn't good enough in my view. I feel something better needs to be done.
Posted by Happyflower on January 18, 2007, at 10:45:12
In reply to Not trying to upset you » Dinah, posted by Happyflower on January 18, 2007, at 10:42:11
This is why I think it would be best for Dr. Bob to address this as not to upset any deputies or posters.
Posted by muffled on January 18, 2007, at 11:09:00
In reply to Re: Not trying to upset you, posted by Happyflower on January 18, 2007, at 10:45:12
> This is why I think it would be best for Dr. Bob to address this as not to upset any deputies or posters.
**Yeah, this is a tough one.
Sorta the diff btwn. your friend saying I hate you, or waving a knife round saying I gonna do it if you don't do what I want.
I think its the degree of seriousness thats a issue here.
There's pressure, and then there's COERCION.Main Entry: co·erce
1 : to restrain or dominate by force <religion in the past has tried to coerce the irreligious -- W. R. Inge>
2 : to compel to an act or choice <was coerced into agreeing>
3 : to achieve by force or threat <coerce compliance>
synonym see FORCE(love that dictionary thing now I found it)
So mebbe if there's pressure, its a DNpressure.
If its coercion, then if there's been any warnings, then it should be considered the direct attack it is and receive a block.
(1 week of course, STILL don't beleive in the escalation business-too fast)
Posted by muffled on January 18, 2007, at 11:15:04
In reply to pressure vs. coerce, posted by muffled on January 18, 2007, at 11:09:00
where the hell are you Bob?
How are you feeling bout this?
Are you feeling upset or pressured?
I'm sorry if so.
But I feel its not fair for you to expect your deputies to deal with something like this. Not fair at all.
Damn this is so complicated cuz people we care bout are getting hurt, and its not so much bout them, as the whole issue we discussing.
Muffled
Posted by one woman cine on January 18, 2007, at 11:53:02
In reply to pressure vs. coerce, posted by muffled on January 18, 2007, at 11:09:00
Thanks muffled - there is a fine distinction. It's what i tried to say before, but it didn't flesh out as well you did...
Posted by Honore on January 18, 2007, at 12:15:03
In reply to Re: pressure vs. coerce » muffled, posted by one woman cine on January 18, 2007, at 11:53:02
I want to say that I'm very sorry that Happyflower has been so deeply hurt and angered by the situation that lead to her block, and by being blocked.
I need to say one thing, here, that I feel very strongly when reading this series of posts.
I feel that this problem should have been dealt with privately, through an email to Bob, with the information and the description of those things that HF felt were pressuring or whatever word you choose to use.
I've been in situations where I was, to use a word, ganged up on by other people, and this thread, even though I respect the feelings of those who are upset, and don't want to question their motives-- which I think are good-- really feels to me to have a quality of ganging up.
This whole topic and HF's feelings about it were discussed at length before the block. and HF was several times, in my presence, on the chat advised to email Bob privately (as we are asked to do, when the behavior of other posters strikes us as uncivil or otherwise upacceptable).
I know that HF may have important reasons, in herself, for doing this publicly, and I again don't mean to say that these are not to feel safer, and are not primarily to try to make Babble feel safer in general.
But honestly, I don't think this is fair to Deneb.
We all know that Deneb is personally being attacked here. We all know that this ia bout Deneb. To say that it isn't, and to continue to publicly repudiate Deneb's conduct over and over, when the issue has been settled-- as far as the administrative actions on Babble are concerned-- strikes me as having a very unfortunate effect.
If Deneb did anything really untoward after the earlier things she did-- then please, HF, communicate it to Bob privately.
I really am sorry that you're still so hurt and not at peace about what happened. But I do think that Deneb is very sorry for what she did-- I do think she's trying to learn from it.
Remember, it is hard to change and to learn from mistakes. You don't need to forgive or forget, or be friends with her, or be comfortable with her. But please, continue this privately with Bob, or Dinah, or others.
Maybe you can reestablish some sense of safety in that way. You can BMail me-- if you want, too.
But please all of us, let's try to understand how it might feel to someone if so many people are talking about her, in such an angry way, in the third person (for the most part).
Honore
Posted by Poet on January 18, 2007, at 12:28:54
In reply to Re: something better needs to be done-yes, posted by Deneb on January 17, 2007, at 23:50:04
> Can someone point out to me the words that are provocative and distressing? I want the actual quotes. I do believe I was civil. Even if they really are provocative and distressing, it's not uncivil to be provocative or distressing.
Deneb, I felt that in this post you weren't being provocative, but what you said was distressing. What you wrote isn't uncivil, but I perceived it as threatening. If the link doesn't work it's on the eating board.
Poet
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/eating/20061124/msgs/706825.html
Posted by Honore on January 18, 2007, at 12:31:32
In reply to Re: pressure vs. coerce, posted by Honore on January 18, 2007, at 12:15:03
I hope that my post didn't seem to say that anyone here is attacking Deneb, or ganging up on her.
If it sounded that way, I didn't mean it in that way. Perhaps I didn't use the right I statements.
I meant that the cumulative effect of so many different individual statements felt to me as if it had that effect-- and that it also seemed to me that we were talking about Deneb, even if not everyone referred to her. If I was mistaken about that, I apologize to anyone who I misunderstood.
Maybe we need more immediate administrative response sometimes, and it feels, again, to me, as though when things are urgent, and there is no administrative response, sometimes that becomes upsetting-- in and of itself-- to me.
Anyway, I hope my statements were civil.
Honore
Posted by sunnydays on January 18, 2007, at 13:20:35
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, something better needs to be done, posted by Deneb on January 17, 2007, at 23:29:41
I don't think you're a bad person Deneb. I also think that a lot of people have given you lots of constructive criticism in the past and suggestions as to what you could change. It by no means means you need to change anything, but I think you'll find lots of suggestions have been given to you in other posts.
sunnydays
Posted by Deneb on January 18, 2007, at 13:20:49
In reply to Re: pressure vs. coerce (PS), posted by Honore on January 18, 2007, at 12:31:32
I'm sorry I don't know how to be a better person. I'm sorry I'm not changing fast enough for some people. I'm getting help, but I'm not going to change overnight.
Deneb*
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