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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4 to 28 of 28. Go back in thread:
Posted by huxley on November 8, 2010, at 22:39:34
In reply to Re: Exercise -, posted by Maxime on November 8, 2010, at 21:03:46
I am glad that you are feeling great. Everytime I see my pdoc he tells me to take up running. Problem is, I am so depressed that I am not motivated. I know that I should just do any way, but it's hard. Did you find it hard to start?
hey maxime,
I know what you mean. I had to force myself to do it and to get noticable results I have to push myself really hard.
Think about how much pain you go through trying to get better with all your med trials and withdrawals.
This is nothing compared to that, find somewhere quiet, grab an ipod and run your heart out! If you do see results like mine you will probably be motivated just to keep doing it just to feel ok.
If you are not fit, Try doing something like 'couch to 5km' to ease you into it. You can download the audio program where it prompts you to run for 90 seconds then walk for a couple of minutes and eventually it builds you up to running 5km.
Posted by Hombre on November 8, 2010, at 23:51:00
In reply to Re: Exercise -, posted by huxley on November 8, 2010, at 22:39:34
At some point the need to get well will outweigh the difficulty of exercising when depressed, unmotivated, even tired to the bone. If a person knew that a pill that would relieve most of the symptoms of depression was locked in a box five miles away, and was given the key, I think he'd start walking. That's not too far from the truth, but most people equate exercise with their "body" and depression with their "brain". The thing is, exercise rebuilds the brain as much as it changes the body.
Posted by hopefullynow on November 9, 2010, at 0:44:43
In reply to Exercise -, posted by huxley on November 8, 2010, at 19:59:05
Looks like your depression is caused by low endorphin levels.Maybe some dl-phenylalanine and/or a low dose naltrexone could give you relief on the long run, besides daily running.
> I am amazed at the level of remission I am getting from simply running.
>
> If I am in a bad place all I need to do is go for a run and a couple of hours later I am feeling great.
>
> I really suggest that anyone who doesnt exercise should give it a shot and carefully notice your mood afterwords.
>
> Not just a casual walk either, that doesnt do it for me. I need to run and push myself and get puffed out etc...
>
> absolutly amazed by my response to it.
Posted by morgan miller on November 9, 2010, at 0:58:14
In reply to Re: Exercise, posted by hopefullynow on November 9, 2010, at 0:44:43
> Looks like your depression is caused by low endorphin levels.Maybe some dl-phenylalanine and/or a low dose naltrexone could give you relief on the long run, besides daily running.
I don't think its that simple. That's like saying if an SSRI works, than serotonin is the reason for the depression. Most people experience major or chronic depression due to the combination of environmental/developmental factors and a genetic predisposition. Or, a combination of one or both of these with a physical/physiological pathology.
Also, exercise does more than just boost endorphins. It increases both dopamine and serotonin. You also have time to reflect during exercise and reduce stress.
Posted by linkadge on November 9, 2010, at 6:20:19
In reply to Exercise -, posted by huxley on November 8, 2010, at 19:59:05
I agree huxly. Running might not be immediately appropriate for all depressed patients, but I too get a very strong AD effect from exercise.
As far as energy goes, if you can just start some small routine and work up, there is a suprising increase in energy levels as you continue the routine.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 9, 2010, at 6:21:52
In reply to Re: Exercise, posted by morgan miller on November 9, 2010, at 0:58:14
Exercise has been linked to changes in just about every single neurotransmitter system currently known to man.
Linkadge
Posted by hopefullynow on November 9, 2010, at 10:09:45
In reply to Re: Exercise, posted by linkadge on November 9, 2010, at 6:21:52
guys you're right, i rushed to conclude that only endorphins are released after sustained effort.
I have the opposite problem, when i exercise a lot, I feel exhausted and moody all day, i sleep awfull and the next day i barely can do basic tasks.could be exhausted adrenals?
Posted by Phillipa on November 9, 2010, at 10:38:46
In reply to Re: Exercise, posted by hopefullynow on November 9, 2010, at 10:09:45
I'm seriously envious of those that physically can run at my age and the bone problems I have had to give it up and there is no "high" like that of jogging or running. But dark, light, wind, rain I must ride 6 miles nightly on my bike as it relieves anxiety. I even ran when was sick with lymes and it helped. I force myself most of the time but as I tell myself it's a necessary evil for me. Keep running and as Nike says " Just Do It". Phillipa
Posted by hopefullynow on November 9, 2010, at 13:02:13
In reply to Re: Exercise » hopefullynow, posted by Phillipa on November 9, 2010, at 10:38:46
Oh, you're right Phillipa, I should "do it" but it seems that the enormous frustration of not enjoying my climbing sessions (on plastic walls or outside on the rocks), finally forced me to give up...not totally.An activity that gave me in the past so much joy, confidence, optimism...now makes me feel so bad :(
Posted by morgan miller on November 9, 2010, at 15:41:01
In reply to Re: Exercise, posted by hopefullynow on November 9, 2010, at 10:09:45
> guys you're right, i rushed to conclude that only endorphins are released after sustained effort.
>
> I have the opposite problem, when i exercise a lot, I feel exhausted and moody all day, i sleep awfull and the next day i barely can do basic tasks.could be exhausted adrenals?Adrenals could be an issue. Have you ever taken anything to help support your adrenals?
Is your diet good?
When you workout, what do you do? Some kinds of exercise end up stressing the body in bad ways. I prefer fairly brief(15 mins) moderat to intense workouts followed by a relaxing stretch.
Have you ever gone a long period working out 3 to 4 days a week, enough to get your body in good cardiovascular shape? If you are not in good shape, and you try working out hard, you may have a bad reaction to it in the beginning. Starting out, go slow and take it easy, then increase intensity as time goes on. This does not necessarily mean increasing length of time.
Posted by morgan miller on November 9, 2010, at 15:44:24
In reply to Re: Exercise » Phillipa, posted by hopefullynow on November 9, 2010, at 13:02:13
> Oh, you're right Phillipa, I should "do it" but it seems that the enormous frustration of not enjoying my climbing sessions (on plastic walls or outside on the rocks), finally forced me to give up...not totally.An activity that gave me in the past so much joy, confidence, optimism...now makes me feel so bad :(
That sucks. Do you think it has anything to do with chronic anxiety or depression? Or maybe some medications you are on?
Maybe consider seeing a good endocrinologist? It is possible your hormones are all out of whack. I don't know if an endo deals with adrenal health but you could talk to them about that as well.
Posted by Bob on November 9, 2010, at 16:25:53
In reply to Exercise -, posted by huxley on November 8, 2010, at 19:59:05
> I am amazed at the level of remission I am getting from simply running.
>
> If I am in a bad place all I need to do is go for a run and a couple of hours later I am feeling great.
>
> I really suggest that anyone who doesnt exercise should give it a shot and carefully notice your mood afterwords.
>
> Not just a casual walk either, that doesnt do it for me. I need to run and push myself and get puffed out etc...
>
> absolutly amazed by my response to it.
I wish I could exercise regularly. I used to love being active and I was actually in arguably the best shape of my life, or nearly so, when I had my initial breakdown. Never really have fully recovered since then.Now exercise is not very often and in the ensuing hours and days subsequent to me being active I slip into a deeper depression along with a flu-like achiness. Nothing like the after-exercise soreness that I used to know before all this. It's scary and not right.
I don't think all types of depression respond to exercise appropriately, although some undoubtedly do.
Bob
Posted by johnj1 on November 9, 2010, at 19:39:45
In reply to Exercise -, posted by huxley on November 8, 2010, at 19:59:05
Considering that we worked our bodies for so long before we became "civil"(not Dr. Bob's definition) it is not suprising we respond to it. Diet and exercise are most important.
Posted by johnj1 on November 9, 2010, at 19:41:52
In reply to Re: Exercise -, posted by huxley on November 8, 2010, at 22:39:34
I think one big trick is to do what you don't feel like doing. Just want to sit around? Get moving. Feel like shutting yourself off? Go to a movie or call someone. Do the opposite of what your mind tells you.
Posted by linkadge on November 9, 2010, at 19:44:21
In reply to Re: Exercise, posted by hopefullynow on November 9, 2010, at 10:09:45
>I have the opposite problem, when i exercise a >lot, I feel exhausted and moody all day, i sleep >awfull and the next day i barely can do basic >tasks.could be exhausted adrenals?
If I am physically depleated and stressed out, exercise can somtimes make things worse. When I get in the zone, however, exercise is fun and it is as if my legs just carry me (i.e. effortless). If I feel depleated on a particular day, I do walking instead.
I can totally go overboard though. If I run too much, it does make things worse and my insomnia and anxiety does worsen. Its hard for me to know when to stop as it is easy for me to get addicted to running.
Its getting that sweet spot of exericse each day where it starts to feel physically good, not bad and its not a chore, but something I look forward to. In that sweet spot my mood, anxiety, cognition and sleep are improved.
Linkadge
Posted by Bob on November 9, 2010, at 20:01:13
In reply to Re: Exercise, posted by hopefullynow on November 9, 2010, at 10:09:45
> I have the opposite problem, when i exercise a lot, I feel exhausted and moody all day, i sleep awfull and the next day i barely can do basic tasks.could be exhausted adrenals?This is my problem as well. Physical activity just seems to really mess me up.
Posted by Phillipa on November 9, 2010, at 20:18:49
In reply to Re: Exercise, posted by linkadge on November 9, 2010, at 19:44:21
Link exactly how it used to be for me. And walking you are very wise to know when walking is appropriate. When in the zone you are so engrossed you just want more and more. I understand. Phillipa
Posted by morgan miller on November 9, 2010, at 20:51:03
In reply to Re: Exercise » hopefullynow, posted by Bob on November 9, 2010, at 20:01:13
>
> > I have the opposite problem, when i exercise a lot, I feel exhausted and moody all day, i sleep awfull and the next day i barely can do basic tasks.could be exhausted adrenals?
>
> This is my problem as well. Physical activity just seems to really mess me up.There may be a reason for this that you may be able to get to the bottom of. Hopefully you do get to the bottom of this and are able to treat it, so that you may get back to enjoying and benefiting from exercise.
Posted by Phillipa on November 9, 2010, at 21:28:30
In reply to Re: Exercise, posted by morgan miller on November 9, 2010, at 20:51:03
Seems to me that there are medical causes as well as nutritional ones as well as mental that cause all these symptoms. Going to post thread on combining medication, health, nutrition as all seem to be interrelated after reading for a few weeks. Here of diet, supplements, and hormones, adrenals are one, and thyroid, chronic fatigue as being factors that create well bodies. Check it out. Doesn't matter if agree or disagree. Just your voices being heard. And my endo doesn't test for adrenal fatigue just adrenal function as an added note. I do know off topic but in about posts some have been mentioned. Phillipa
Posted by Zyprexa on November 9, 2010, at 22:03:33
In reply to Exercise -, posted by huxley on November 8, 2010, at 19:59:05
Exercise is an AD. I exercise and feel great afterwards. Just wish I could do it more often.
Posted by Hombre on November 9, 2010, at 22:59:50
In reply to Re: Exercise, posted by Phillipa on November 9, 2010, at 21:28:30
Very inspiring posts by Phillip and others about doing what they can, and working around physical problems to add activity to their arsenal against depression.
When I start to get down, I often feel "disconnected" from my body. And the last thing I want to do is exercise, because I feel so tired to begin with. If you have an exercise buddy nearby, they can sometimes gently persuade you to get out the door, and usually after five minutes or so you're glad you did. But getting out the door is the hard part.
Sometimes mindful movement can be a better way to see physical activity vs. all the baggage that goes with "exercise", such as appearance, not being "sporty", etc. I am not naturally athletic, sporty, fit, or coordinated. That's OK, I don't mind looking a bit foolish if it helps me to feel better.
Laying on the ground and doing slow, deep breathing is one way I learned to reconnect with my body. If I feel up to it, I start coordinating the tensing and relaxing of my muscles with my breath. E.g. breathe in, tense everything, even my face (this looks hilarious, by the way. best if done with a partner!). Breathe out, relax everything. Then, breathe in, tighten only my legs. Breathe out, relax. Breathe in, tighten my arms, breathe out, relax. I just make it up as I go to suit my mood and energy levels. That way I don't feel like I'm locked into some boring routine. Five to ten minutes is enough, but after that I sometimes feel sassy enough to take on something more ambitious like a push up or two.
With practice, you'll be able to isolate, tense, and relax your muscles at will, even muscles you didn't know existed. You can focus on tension to energize, or focus on relaxing for...relaxation.
I try to use this method while walking and running too. Breathe in through the nose, breathe out through the mouth. Breathe faster for more effort, breathe slower to cool down. That way I distract myself from the voice in my head that is screaming at me because my attention span doesn't take well to repetition.
Posted by bleauberry on November 10, 2010, at 17:30:32
In reply to Exercise -, posted by huxley on November 8, 2010, at 19:59:05
This is a good clue that your depression is opioid based. Serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine may be non-players or minor players in your case.
If that assumption is true, your best choice if you want to take meds is LDN. The best natural supplement would be DLPA, or DPA. LDN and DLPA together work very well. Combined with your exercise, there ya go.
> I am amazed at the level of remission I am getting from simply running.
>
> If I am in a bad place all I need to do is go for a run and a couple of hours later I am feeling great.
>
> I really suggest that anyone who doesnt exercise should give it a shot and carefully notice your mood afterwords.
>
> Not just a casual walk either, that doesnt do it for me. I need to run and push myself and get puffed out etc...
>
> absolutly amazed by my response to it.
Posted by obsidian on November 11, 2010, at 20:55:50
In reply to Exercise -, posted by huxley on November 8, 2010, at 19:59:05
> I am amazed at the level of remission I am getting from simply running.
>
> If I am in a bad place all I need to do is go for a run and a couple of hours later I am feeling great.
>
> I really suggest that anyone who doesnt exercise should give it a shot and carefully notice your mood afterwords.
>
> Not just a casual walk either, that doesnt do it for me. I need to run and push myself and get puffed out etc...
>
> absolutly amazed by my response to it.I'll attest to this. Once upon a time....yes, it worked for me. I got up to about 10 miles a week. and sh*t yes, it is hard to get started, one foot after the other, repeat. just a little further....repeat....just a little further...repeat.
Nike says 'just do it' ;-)
Posted by Hyena on November 13, 2010, at 7:00:19
In reply to Re: Exercise -, posted by Maxime on November 8, 2010, at 21:03:46
> I am glad that you are feeling great. Everytime I see my pdoc he tells me to take up running. Problem is, I am so depressed that I am not motivated. I know that I should just do any way, but it's hard. Did you find it hard to start?
I had the same problem but through trial and error I found a way past it. I spend only about 10 minutes exercising every evening and its more effective than any medication or supplement for keeping my mood up. You don't need to spend hours in the gym. You dont even have to leave your house. The secret is to make it intense. All I do is one exercise like jump jacks or spot running for 1 minute, rest for a minute then repeat. The main thing is to get your heart rate up for the minute of exercise. this is similar to interval training but not even as intense as that. It's easy for me to be motivated with this as it's so short and I feel great after it.
Before this I thought I had to do an hour of lower intensity cardio but to be honest I felt worse after doing that.
You dont have to go all out. Just get your heart pumping and work up a bit of a sweat.
I have been doing this for about a year now and I it has helped hugely. I dont have any problem with motivation anymore. What motivates me is that if I dont exercise then the next day I will sink into a depression.
I used to get jittery after eating certain foods which I think was down to blood sugar problems. The exercise has completely stopped this also.
Hope this helps.Good luck.
Posted by morgan miller on November 13, 2010, at 10:30:01
In reply to Re: Exercise - » Maxime, posted by Hyena on November 13, 2010, at 7:00:19
>You don't need to spend hours in the gym. You dont even have to leave your house. The secret is to make it intense. All I do is one exercise like jump jacks or spot running for 1 minute, rest for a minute then repeat. The main thing is to get your heart rate up for the minute of exercise. this is similar to interval training but not even as intense as that.
This is great advice and it will work for many people. The only problem would be finding the energy to do this. I think with the right medication, and easing one's way into it, this can eventually be a real possibility for many that currently believe it is not possible.
This is the end of the thread.
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