![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Kristi on May 18, 2001, at 16:48:18
Hi,
I am new to the board.. well, not exactly new but first time posting anyway.
I really haven't had to ask too many questions because by searching the posts, most of them are answered for me.
But what I really wish to know... I have had zero luck with AD's. Yuck, I seem to have the worst side effects with all that I've tried. Actually, through therapy and other odd ball ways... I am less depresed and seem to be enjoying life much better. But the one thing I'm having problems with is motivation. Don't have it. Want it. Badly. Is there anything I can take that can just put a little "kick in my step?" It's frustrating. I'm tired all the time... I have had a complete overhall on my body trying to find a reason for this... I am slightly anemic... but that's about all I've found. Any advice? Thanks in advance. Oh, I also want to add... just because... but James, Cam, Sal, Elizabeth, Shelli, Jay... and so many others.... you do a great job in helping people.. and from an observer standpoint.. I just wanted you to know you have answered so many of my questions and you just seem, well, so altogether helpful. It takes a great person to come on this board and provide information for people in need. Very unselfish. I just see so many people getting attacked lately... that I just wanted to say something positive to you guys... and oh.. p.s. you handle it so well. Not sure I could do the same. Take care all, Kristi :-)
Posted by Glenn Fagelson on May 18, 2001, at 17:04:18
In reply to Anyone?, posted by Kristi on May 18, 2001, at 16:48:18
> Hi,
> I am new to the board.. well, not exactly new but first time posting anyway.
> I really haven't had to ask too many questions because by searching the posts, most of them are answered for me.
> But what I really wish to know... I have had zero luck with AD's. Yuck, I seem to have the worst side effects with all that I've tried. Actually, through therapy and other odd ball ways... I am less depresed and seem to be enjoying life much better. But the one thing I'm having problems with is motivation. Don't have it. Want it. Badly. Is there anything I can take that can just put a little "kick in my step?" It's frustrating. I'm tired all the time... I have had a complete overhall on my body trying to find a reason for this... I am slightly anemic... but that's about all I've found. Any advice? Thanks in advance. Oh, I also want to add... just because... but James, Cam, Sal, Elizabeth, Shelli, Jay... and so many others.... you do a great job in helping people.. and from an observer standpoint.. I just wanted you to know you have answered so many of my questions and you just seem, well, so altogether helpful. It takes a great person to come on this board and provide information for people in need. Very unselfish. I just see so many people getting attacked lately... that I just wanted to say something positive to you guys... and oh.. p.s. you handle it so well. Not sure I could do the same. Take care all, Kristi :-)Hi Kristi,
I suffer from depression and lately I too
have been suffering from a lack of motivation.
Not only do I take anti-depressants, but I take
Synthroid because my thyroid is low. I think
I am going to see my doctor because I may need
to take more Synthroid. Has your doctor
checked you for hypothyroidism?
Glenn
Posted by Kristi on May 18, 2001, at 17:20:32
In reply to Re: Anyone?, posted by Glenn Fagelson on May 18, 2001, at 17:04:18
Yeah.. I was checked for that. First thing actually, because that runs in my family(not saying it's genetic, have no clue). Is it not totally horrible being this fatigued???? I hate this feeling.... and I think I'm doing everything right... I eat well, exercise, etc... thats the most discouraging part of all!!! Ugh... thanks glenn. Kristi p.s. I'm sorry your dealing with it too. "I feel your pain." :-)
> > Hi,
> > I am new to the board.. well, not exactly new but first time posting anyway.
> > I really haven't had to ask too many questions because by searching the posts, most of them are answered for me.
> > But what I really wish to know... I have had zero luck with AD's. Yuck, I seem to have the worst side effects with all that I've tried. Actually, through therapy and other odd ball ways... I am less depresed and seem to be enjoying life much better. But the one thing I'm having problems with is motivation. Don't have it. Want it. Badly. Is there anything I can take that can just put a little "kick in my step?" It's frustrating. I'm tired all the time... I have had a complete overhall on my body trying to find a reason for this... I am slightly anemic... but that's about all I've found. Any advice? Thanks in advance. Oh, I also want to add... just because... but James, Cam, Sal, Elizabeth, Shelli, Jay... and so many others.... you do a great job in helping people.. and from an observer standpoint.. I just wanted you to know you have answered so many of my questions and you just seem, well, so altogether helpful. It takes a great person to come on this board and provide information for people in need. Very unselfish. I just see so many people getting attacked lately... that I just wanted to say something positive to you guys... and oh.. p.s. you handle it so well. Not sure I could do the same. Take care all, Kristi :-)
>
> Hi Kristi,
> I suffer from depression and lately I too
> have been suffering from a lack of motivation.
> Not only do I take anti-depressants, but I take
> Synthroid because my thyroid is low. I think
> I am going to see my doctor because I may need
> to take more Synthroid. Has your doctor
> checked you for hypothyroidism?
> Glenn
>
Posted by JahL on May 18, 2001, at 18:21:34
In reply to Anyone?, posted by Kristi on May 18, 2001, at 16:48:18
> >I have had zero luck with AD's.
You too?
> > Actually, through therapy and other odd ball ways...
:-)
> >. But the one thing I'm having problems with is motivation. Don't have it. Want it.
Me too. It's a killer for me. I think it's especially bad if you have a lot of ambition within you.
> > Is there anything I can take that can just put a little "kick in my step?"
M$ question. Could be that yr fatigue is just a prominent symptom of unresolved depression (my gut instinct fwiw). My first instinct was thyroid, but you seem to have that covered (tho' I'm sure you're aware that there is currently disagreement over just what constitutes 'normal' labs.)
What's yr official dx? Have you tried anything besides ADs (AEDs, APs, stims,etc)? Psychiatrist or psychologist?
> >It's frustrating.
Ain't it just? ;0)
J.
Posted by Kristi on May 18, 2001, at 19:24:22
In reply to Re: Anyone? » Kristi, posted by JahL on May 18, 2001, at 18:21:34
J,
First off.... thanks for your response. You have this witiness(that spelling looks off) about you that I admire.
I love your little smiley when I said I've been doing better with therapy and odd balls ways. Been there?
And yes... that is the worst part.... I do have the ambition to do things.... but I can't seem to get off my butt and do them! I mean, I still work, but as far as anything beyond.....
I guess my problem could be as a result of unresolved depression. Quick self assesment of me. I lost my mom to suicide last year... depression definately runs in my family. And oh yes.... was very depressed over that. First think I did was see a pdoc. That's when I started getting prescribed AD's. They all seem to take away much of the little things I enjoy so much... ie.. sleeping(ha ha), energy, feeling "healthy"... I mean that as far as naseau and constipation, etc. So I went off those. They didn't really seem to help me tho anyway. All I really noticed(tried 4) were the side effects.
As far as stimulants.... haven't tried. I guess I am terrified of taking the chance because of certain risks. Are there any stimulants that you don't have to take religiously every day? I'm afraid of that every day thing.. for reasons I'm not totally sure of but have an idea. My brothers are both street drug users... and I've seen them slowly go downhill.. and my mother, god rest her soul, was on Ad's.... sister on prozac.. and she seems happy... but not really "her"... I guess it could be seeing what drugs do to the people closest to my heart that brings on this fear.
I do see a psychologist twice a week. Major help there.
I guess I really have never been given an official dx. I guess the pdoc was pretty much assuming I was depressed... hence the ad's. But they seemed to worsen that.
I'm very lucky in the way that I have many friends.... people are always telling me I smile to much.... :-) But I really do like "life." Granted, on some days I'm sure I'll feel the opposite, but in general.
I just can't get out of this slump that I am so Tired. I hear alot about chronic fatigue syndrome. I guess that could be a logical conclusion... but i'm again afraid that will mean drugs with horrible side effects for life. Anyway, there is the jist. Thanks for responding. :-) Kristi
Posted by JahL on May 18, 2001, at 20:14:43
In reply to Re: Anyone? » JahL, posted by Kristi on May 18, 2001, at 19:24:22
> > I love your little smiley when I said I've been doing better with therapy and odd balls ways. Been there?Got the T-shirt. It was the 'odd-ball' bit. It's how I tend to rgd psychotherapy & many of its exponents(some of the most socially dysfunctional individuals I have come across have been therapists!).
> > I guess my problem could be as a result of unresolved depression. Quick self assesment of me. I lost my mom to suicide last year...
Sorry. Can't have helped. Increase in depression due to this=increase in symptoms, of which one is fatigue?
> >depression definately runs in my family. And oh yes.... was very depressed over that. I started getting prescribed AD's. They didn't really seem to help me tho anyway. All I really noticed(tried 4) were the side effects.
Same. ADs have *worsened* my condition.
> > Are there any stimulants that you don't have to take religiously every day?
Not that I'm aware of. I'm not sure stims are yr next port of call. Using amphetamines for 'energy' is generally a bad call (& I speak as a former base-head).
> > My brothers are both street drug users...
Me & my 2 brothers all have a propensity to 'abuse' substances, mostly alcohol in their case, everything in mine! (only touch pot now)
> >and I've seen them slowly go downhill.. and my mother, god rest her soul, was on Ad's.... sister on prozac..
Looks like a strong biological element to yr depression. Suggests to me that physical (ie meds) as well as psychological treatment is in order.
> > I have many friends.... people are always telling me I smile to much.... :-)
I used to have a couple of female friends constantly taking the p*ss because I *never* smile. Except in print :-)
> >I am so Tired. I hear alot about chronic fatigue syndrome. I guess that could be a logical conclusion...
Hadn't thought about that. Could be worth checking out. Wld involve meds tho'.
The only other thing that crosses my mind is some kind of soft Bipolar, given the family history, substance abuse & *worsening* on ADs. I'm just relating things to my own case. Me, & a lot of my family seem plain old depressed (but have the substance abuse, agitation, explosive tempers that can be BP symptoms), but my brief episodes of r. cycling & hypomania on SSRIs cld suggest soft BP III. Anyway, ignore my armchair analysis. The point I'm getting to is; have you tried mood-stabilizers? They provide me with a safety-net & improve my cognition a little. A lot of AD-failure people report benefit from AEDs.
Just a coupla ideas to bounce off yr pdoc.
J
Posted by Glenn Fagelson on May 18, 2001, at 20:57:05
In reply to Anyone?, posted by Kristi on May 18, 2001, at 16:48:18
> Hi,
> I am new to the board.. well, not exactly new but first time posting anyway.
> I really haven't had to ask too many questions because by searching the posts, most of them are answered for me.
> But what I really wish to know... I have had zero luck with AD's. Yuck, I seem to have the worst side effects with all that I've tried. Actually, through therapy and other odd ball ways... I am less depresed and seem to be enjoying life much better. But the one thing I'm having problems with is motivation. Don't have it. Want it. Badly. Is there anything I can take that can just put a little "kick in my step?" It's frustrating. I'm tired all the time... I have had a complete overhall on my body trying to find a reason for this... I am slightly anemic... but that's about all I've found. Any advice? Thanks in advance. Oh, I also want to add... just because... but James, Cam, Sal, Elizabeth, Shelli, Jay... and so many others.... you do a great job in helping people.. and from an observer standpoint.. I just wanted you to know you have answered so many of my questions and you just seem, well, so altogether helpful. It takes a great person to come on this board and provide information for people in need. Very unselfish. I just see so many people getting attacked lately... that I just wanted to say something positive to you guys... and oh.. p.s. you handle it so well. Not sure I could do the same. Take care all, Kristi :-)Kristi, this is Glenn again. It sounds like
you may be more in a state of grief rather
than depression. There is a difference, you know. Or it could be a combination of both.
For the past few months, I have been seeing
a hypnotherapist; for the first time in my life, I feel like I may be rising above my illness. Have you ever thought of trying hypnosis for your condition?
Posted by PuraVida on May 18, 2001, at 23:16:07
In reply to Re: Anyone? » Kristi, posted by Glenn Fagelson on May 18, 2001, at 20:57:05
I've tried hypnotherapy also, and it worked well in conjunction with meds and therapist's visits. I think the best part is the visualization. Unfortunatley not covered by insurance, so I've had to quit going for now... Maybe after bing reminded that it did work to get me in a more positive, motivated state of mind, I might need to go back -
Liz
> For the past few months, I have been seeing
> a hypnotherapist; for the first time in my life, I feel like I may be rising above my illness. Have you ever thought of trying hypnosis for your condition?
Posted by Kristi on May 18, 2001, at 23:36:49
In reply to Re: Anyone? » Kristi, posted by Glenn Fagelson on May 18, 2001, at 20:57:05
Ya know.... I have thought of that. Everytime I bring it up I get laughed at. :-) It does good for you? What does it entail? I know, pretty vague question. Tx, Kristi
> > Hi,
> > I am new to the board.. well, not exactly new but first time posting anyway.
> > I really haven't had to ask too many questions because by searching the posts, most of them are answered for me.
> > But what I really wish to know... I have had zero luck with AD's. Yuck, I seem to have the worst side effects with all that I've tried. Actually, through therapy and other odd ball ways... I am less depresed and seem to be enjoying life much better. But the one thing I'm having problems with is motivation. Don't have it. Want it. Badly. Is there anything I can take that can just put a little "kick in my step?" It's frustrating. I'm tired all the time... I have had a complete overhall on my body trying to find a reason for this... I am slightly anemic... but that's about all I've found. Any advice? Thanks in advance. Oh, I also want to add... just because... but James, Cam, Sal, Elizabeth, Shelli, Jay... and so many others.... you do a great job in helping people.. and from an observer standpoint.. I just wanted you to know you have answered so many of my questions and you just seem, well, so altogether helpful. It takes a great person to come on this board and provide information for people in need. Very unselfish. I just see so many people getting attacked lately... that I just wanted to say something positive to you guys... and oh.. p.s. you handle it so well. Not sure I could do the same. Take care all, Kristi :-)
>
> Kristi, this is Glenn again. It sounds like
> you may be more in a state of grief rather
> than depression. There is a difference, you know. Or it could be a combination of both.
> For the past few months, I have been seeing
> a hypnotherapist; for the first time in my life, I feel like I may be rising above my illness. Have you ever thought of trying hypnosis for your condition?
Posted by Kristi on May 18, 2001, at 23:37:40
In reply to Re: Anyone?, posted by PuraVida on May 18, 2001, at 23:16:07
How expensive?
> I've tried hypnotherapy also, and it worked well in conjunction with meds and therapist's visits. I think the best part is the visualization. Unfortunatley not covered by insurance, so I've had to quit going for now... Maybe after bing reminded that it did work to get me in a more positive, motivated state of mind, I might need to go back -
>
> Liz
>
>
>
> > For the past few months, I have been seeing
> > a hypnotherapist; for the first time in my life, I feel like I may be rising above my illness. Have you ever thought of trying hypnosis for your condition?
Posted by Glenn Fagelson on May 19, 2001, at 1:07:32
In reply to Re: Anyone?-Glenn, posted by Kristi on May 18, 2001, at 23:36:49
> Ya know.... I have thought of that. Everytime I bring it up I get laughed at. :-) It does good for you? What does it entail? I know, pretty vague question. Tx, Kristi
> I am sorry to hear that you were laughed at
for bringing up the subject of hypnosis. I
believe it has helped me in conjunction with medication. There is nothing scary about hypnosis; my doctor puts me in a state of deep
relaxation. Once I am totally relaxed; he guides me. If I want to look at childhood memories, he helps me by asking specific questions. Eventhough I am
hypnotized, I have total control of myself. My
doctor is merely a guide; he has no power over me
during the hypnosis. He will also give me
post-hypnotic suggestions for insomnia,
discouragement, etc,. Many hypnotherapists are
also clinical psychologists. Also, it can be quite
expensive. I am looking into other alternative
methods for treating depression as well.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Hi,
> > > I am new to the board.. well, not exactly new but first time posting anyway.
> > > I really haven't had to ask too many questions because by searching the posts, most of them are answered for me.
> > > But what I really wish to know... I have had zero luck with AD's. Yuck, I seem to have the worst side effects with all that I've tried. Actually, through therapy and other odd ball ways... I am less depresed and seem to be enjoying life much better. But the one thing I'm having problems with is motivation. Don't have it. Want it. Badly. Is there anything I can take that can just put a little "kick in my step?" It's frustrating. I'm tired all the time... I have had a complete overhall on my body trying to find a reason for this... I am slightly anemic... but that's about all I've found. Any advice? Thanks in advance. Oh, I also want to add... just because... but James, Cam, Sal, Elizabeth, Shelli, Jay... and so many others.... you do a great job in helping people.. and from an observer standpoint.. I just wanted you to know you have answered so many of my questions and you just seem, well, so altogether helpful. It takes a great person to come on this board and provide information for people in need. Very unselfish. I just see so many people getting attacked lately... that I just wanted to say something positive to you guys... and oh.. p.s. you handle it so well. Not sure I could do the same. Take care all, Kristi :-)
> >
> > Kristi, this is Glenn again. It sounds like
> > you may be more in a state of grief rather
> > than depression. There is a difference, you know. Or it could be a combination of both.
> > For the past few months, I have been seeing
> > a hypnotherapist; for the first time in my life, I feel like I may be rising above my illness. Have you ever thought of trying hypnosis for your condition?
Posted by Kristi on May 19, 2001, at 3:19:22
In reply to Re: Anyone?-Glenn » Kristi, posted by Glenn Fagelson on May 19, 2001, at 1:07:32
That really does sound interesting, and something I just might look into. I don't think i want to dig to deep into my child hood...... very strange.. I found out last year that I lived with my grandparents until I was 11 years old.... now 31.. and I DON'T EVEN REMEMBER IT. Strange huh? I always assume... if I repressed that many years of my life... it might be better to keep them there... if ya know what I mean. But could this stuff actually like.... gosh I can't even think of a word,.... kind of... um.... :-) talk you into being motivated?
> > Ya know.... I have thought of that. Everytime I bring it up I get laughed at. :-) It does good for you? What does it entail? I know, pretty vague question. Tx, Kristi
>
>
> > I am sorry to hear that you were laughed at
> for bringing up the subject of hypnosis. I
> believe it has helped me in conjunction with medication. There is nothing scary about hypnosis; my doctor puts me in a state of deep
> relaxation. Once I am totally relaxed; he guides me. If I want to look at childhood memories, he helps me by asking specific questions. Eventhough I am
> hypnotized, I have total control of myself. My
> doctor is merely a guide; he has no power over me
> during the hypnosis. He will also give me
> post-hypnotic suggestions for insomnia,
> discouragement, etc,. Many hypnotherapists are
> also clinical psychologists. Also, it can be quite
> expensive. I am looking into other alternative
> methods for treating depression as well.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > > Hi,
> > > > I am new to the board.. well, not exactly new but first time posting anyway.
> > > > I really haven't had to ask too many questions because by searching the posts, most of them are answered for me.
> > > > But what I really wish to know... I have had zero luck with AD's. Yuck, I seem to have the worst side effects with all that I've tried. Actually, through therapy and other odd ball ways... I am less depresed and seem to be enjoying life much better. But the one thing I'm having problems with is motivation. Don't have it. Want it. Badly. Is there anything I can take that can just put a little "kick in my step?" It's frustrating. I'm tired all the time... I have had a complete overhall on my body trying to find a reason for this... I am slightly anemic... but that's about all I've found. Any advice? Thanks in advance. Oh, I also want to add... just because... but James, Cam, Sal, Elizabeth, Shelli, Jay... and so many others.... you do a great job in helping people.. and from an observer standpoint.. I just wanted you to know you have answered so many of my questions and you just seem, well, so altogether helpful. It takes a great person to come on this board and provide information for people in need. Very unselfish. I just see so many people getting attacked lately... that I just wanted to say something positive to you guys... and oh.. p.s. you handle it so well. Not sure I could do the same. Take care all, Kristi :-)
> > >
> > > Kristi, this is Glenn again. It sounds like
> > > you may be more in a state of grief rather
> > > than depression. There is a difference, you know. Or it could be a combination of both.
> > > For the past few months, I have been seeing
> > > a hypnotherapist; for the first time in my life, I feel like I may be rising above my illness. Have you ever thought of trying hypnosis for your condition?
Posted by Marie1 on May 19, 2001, at 10:36:38
In reply to Re: Anyone?-Glenn, posted by Kristi on May 19, 2001, at 3:19:22
Kristi,
Your history sounds similar to mine (I lost mother and a brother to suicide), but I do respond to ADs (prozac). I also understand and can relate completely to your feeling of "don't go there..." regarding your childhood. I am DEFINITELY no expert in the field, but I think you might reconsider getting help for repressed memories. It's quite possible the things you may be stuffing inside are causing your depression and feelings of being non motivated. I feel the same way; my attitude is "why bother? life sucks and then you die....". I've always been somewhat sexually repressed (had an inkling of it probably stemming from my childhood) but never wanted to deal with it. Due mainly to the persistence of my pdoc, I'm beginning to deal with it, and while I hate it and it's painful, I'm starting to see how the traumas in the past can f**k up your life. And it's not too late to change things. I apologise if I've made assumptions here that I shouldn't have about your life; obviously I don't know you and could be way off base here. Please forgive me if that's the case.
Marie
> That really does sound interesting, and something I just might look into. I don't think i want to dig to deep into my child hood...... very strange.. I found out last year that I lived with my grandparents until I was 11 years old.... now 31.. and I DON'T EVEN REMEMBER IT. Strange huh? I always assume... if I repressed that many years of my life... it might be better to keep them there... if ya know what I mean. But could this stuff actually like.... gosh I can't even think of a word,.... kind of... um.... :-) talk you into being motivated?
Posted by Kristi on May 19, 2001, at 13:02:24
In reply to Re: Anyone?-Kristi, posted by Marie1 on May 19, 2001, at 10:36:38
Please.... never apologize, at least to me. :-) for advice. I'll welcome anything. You know... I KNOW that is true.. I know that finding out the things that did happen to me in my childhood could definately help things I currently feel.. or ways I currently act.
For an example.... my grandfather supposedly locked me in a cole bin everyday(he was a cole miner. This was told to me by my brother) for hours on end because he didn't like "woman". I am soooooooo terrified what else he or she may have done,.. it seems like it would have to be so extreme for me to block out so many years. That's the only reason it makes me skeptical to bring it back. Would knowing cause MORE depression? Or aid in helping? It's like a double edge sword to me and I go back and forth.
HMMM..... lightbulb going off. Glenn, if your reading this.... this could be the reason why my family(esp my parents) laugh at me when I talk about doing this.
How I envy you that you came to grips with your past.. was this the same kind of thing? Have you repressed it or remember it? My life from 13 till 18 was what unfortunately seems the typical now... lived with my dad, didn't know my mother... and my father was like one of the "boot camp" intstructors, worse......... But... I do want to be "responsible" in helping myself.... maybe I definately need to look at it further. I think I'm going to have to develop a lot of courage....
Thanks for your post and thoughts... I am very sorry for your losses! It's awful. Take care,
Kristi
> Kristi,
>
> Your history sounds similar to mine (I lost mother and a brother to suicide), but I do respond to ADs (prozac). I also understand and can relate completely to your feeling of "don't go there..." regarding your childhood. I am DEFINITELY no expert in the field, but I think you might reconsider getting help for repressed memories. It's quite possible the things you may be stuffing inside are causing your depression and feelings of being non motivated. I feel the same way; my attitude is "why bother? life sucks and then you die....". I've always been somewhat sexually repressed (had an inkling of it probably stemming from my childhood) but never wanted to deal with it. Due mainly to the persistence of my pdoc, I'm beginning to deal with it, and while I hate it and it's painful, I'm starting to see how the traumas in the past can f**k up your life. And it's not too late to change things. I apologise if I've made assumptions here that I shouldn't have about your life; obviously I don't know you and could be way off base here. Please forgive me if that's the case.
>
> Marie
>
> > That really does sound interesting, and something I just might look into. I don't think i want to dig to deep into my child hood...... very strange.. I found out last year that I lived with my grandparents until I was 11 years old.... now 31.. and I DON'T EVEN REMEMBER IT. Strange huh? I always assume... if I repressed that many years of my life... it might be better to keep them there... if ya know what I mean. But could this stuff actually like.... gosh I can't even think of a word,.... kind of... um.... :-) talk you into being motivated?
Posted by Glenn Fagelson on May 19, 2001, at 16:00:41
In reply to Re: Anyone?-Glenn, posted by Kristi on May 19, 2001, at 3:19:22
>
>
> That really does sound interesting, and something I just might look into. I don't think i want to dig to deep into my child hood...... very strange.. I found out last year that I lived with my grandparents until I was 11 years old.... now 31.. and I DON'T EVEN REMEMBER IT. Strange huh? I always assume... if I repressed that many years of my life... it might be better to keep them there... if ya know what I mean. But could this stuff actually like.... gosh I can't even think of a word,.... kind of... um.... :-) talk you into being motivated?
> >
> Dear Kristi,The hypnotherapy can increase your motivation; As far as going back into the past,
my hypnotherapist gave me this metaphor comparing
the computer to the psyche. "No matter how much
you try to change the software on your computer,
it won't change until you fix the hardware."
> However, I can understand how you feel about
looking at childhood memories and opening up a
whole can of worms. I can tell you more about
hypnosis and other alternative methods for depression. Would you like to e-mail me and we can talk more on this subject? You sound like a very interesting person. My e-mail address is
glennfagelson@home.comGlenn
>
>
>
>
> > > Ya know.... I have thought of that. Everytime I bring it up I get laughed at. :-) It does good for you? What does it entail? I know, pretty vague question. Tx, Kristi
> >
> >
> > > I am sorry to hear that you were laughed at
> > for bringing up the subject of hypnosis. I
> > believe it has helped me in conjunction with medication. There is nothing scary about hypnosis; my doctor puts me in a state of deep
> > relaxation. Once I am totally relaxed; he guides me. If I want to look at childhood memories, he helps me by asking specific questions. Eventhough I am
> > hypnotized, I have total control of myself. My
> > doctor is merely a guide; he has no power over me
> > during the hypnosis. He will also give me
> > post-hypnotic suggestions for insomnia,
> > discouragement, etc,. Many hypnotherapists are
> > also clinical psychologists. Also, it can be quite
> > expensive. I am looking into other alternative
> > methods for treating depression as well.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > > I am new to the board.. well, not exactly new but first time posting anyway.
> > > > > I really haven't had to ask too many questions because by searching the posts, most of them are answered for me.
> > > > > But what I really wish to know... I have had zero luck with AD's. Yuck, I seem to have the worst side effects with all that I've tried. Actually, through therapy and other odd ball ways... I am less depresed and seem to be enjoying life much better. But the one thing I'm having problems with is motivation. Don't have it. Want it. Badly. Is there anything I can take that can just put a little "kick in my step?" It's frustrating. I'm tired all the time... I have had a complete overhall on my body trying to find a reason for this... I am slightly anemic... but that's about all I've found. Any advice? Thanks in advance. Oh, I also want to add... just because... but James, Cam, Sal, Elizabeth, Shelli, Jay... and so many others.... you do a great job in helping people.. and from an observer standpoint.. I just wanted you to know you have answered so many of my questions and you just seem, well, so altogether helpful. It takes a great person to come on this board and provide information for people in need. Very unselfish. I just see so many people getting attacked lately... that I just wanted to say something positive to you guys... and oh.. p.s. you handle it so well. Not sure I could do the same. Take care all, Kristi :-)
> > > >
> > > > Kristi, this is Glenn again. It sounds like
> > > > you may be more in a state of grief rather
> > > > than depression. There is a difference, you know. Or it could be a combination of both.
> > > > For the past few months, I have been seeing
> > > > a hypnotherapist; for the first time in my life, I feel like I may be rising above my illness. Have you ever thought of trying hypnosis for your condition?
Posted by shelliR on May 19, 2001, at 20:37:26
In reply to Anyone?, posted by Kristi on May 18, 2001, at 16:48:18
Kristi, I wanted to write two things to you in response to what you are telling us .
First, about chronic fatigue syndrome: it is not just tiredness and lack of motivation. It almost always includes swollen glands and a sore throat, and other symptoms of infection. So I doubt that is what you have, unless you have those symptoms.
Second, about dealing with repressed memories. You may decide now that you don't want to go searching after past memories, but my experience personally, and in knowing a lot of sexual and physical abuse survivors, is that eventually the memories come after you. Sometimes it seems out of nowhere and sometimes it is precipitated by something specific, e.g., having a daughter the same age as you were when you were abused.
I would say for sure that you need to talk to someone about what you are feeling right now. A psychologist might be a good choice because they would not be pushing meds directly on you (although they might want you to go to a psychiatrist for a consultation.)
I would not try to force memories to come up. They became repressed to protect you, and now even though you don't need that protection in the same way, you don't want to flood yourself with more than you can handle. Memories sort of have a life of their own. But when they come up, I would not push them back down either. I would anticipate for you that memories may come up eventually, and I would hope that you were working with someone who specializes that that field. Many specialists in trauma are now working with EMDR (you can find it on the web) rather than hypnosis, to process memories.
You might want to read some articles or books by Judith Herman-MD from Harvard. She has a rather simple and elegant way of describing what happens when repressed memories emerge, and what type of treatment is needed. She deals not only with victims of childhood abuse, but also political prisoners and war veterans. I believe she thinks it is important for everyone with a trauma background to both know their story and share their story (with a group or therapist, not with everyone you meet.) If you do a search, you'll come up with some stuff of hers on the web.
Good luck to you, Shelli
Posted by Marie1 on May 20, 2001, at 10:07:45
In reply to Re: Anyone?-Kristi » Marie1, posted by Kristi on May 19, 2001, at 13:02:24
Hi Kristi,
I'm glad my previous post didn't offend you; around here it's not safe to assume anything when responding to people :)!!
In answer to your questions, I *don't think* I've repressed alot of stuff from childhood, but as I posted on the psb board, I am feeling like I never know whats going to come out in therapy these days. I only began seeing a psychiatrist because I developed major depression (I had dysthymia for years), and since pdocs can prescribe, I thought that was the logical choice for help. I really didn't think I needed analysis, but was intrigued by the therapy so I kept going. I do have multiple substance abuse problems (which I never really saw as "problems") and we have been working on that. I very recently "remembered" the sexual abuse, but "remembered" isn't exactly the right word. It's hard to explain, but I *knew* somewhere inside, somehow, that this had happened, but yet was shocked by actually thinking and admitting it. Does that make sense? I'm still grappling with it myself.
I always thought that my depression was purely biological, but now I'm seeing that things that happened to me in my past may have contributed to the biological tendency toward depression. (I think this is called "double" depression). To be honest with you, I'm not sure yet where to go with this newfound revelation, but I guess coming to terms with it is better than not, and at least answers some questions that I had about my sexuality. Whatever you decide to do now about your past, I sincerely wish you the best. If you decide to explore it, know you aren't alone - apparently there are many of us dealing with these things. Keep posting here, maybe we can help each other through this awful process.Marie
p.s. Isn't self deception the best?! :)
Posted by Kristi on May 20, 2001, at 13:56:23
In reply to Re: Anyone?-Kristi » Kristi, posted by Marie1 on May 20, 2001, at 10:07:45
Hi!
I wrote you back on the other board... psycho social... so go on over if ya can. :-) I kind of having a feeling it was going to be re-directed there anyway. Thanks... Kristi
> Hi Kristi,
>
> I'm glad my previous post didn't offend you; around here it's not safe to assume anything when responding to people :)!!
> In answer to your questions, I *don't think* I've repressed alot of stuff from childhood, but as I posted on the psb board, I am feeling like I never know whats going to come out in therapy these days. I only began seeing a psychiatrist because I developed major depression (I had dysthymia for years), and since pdocs can prescribe, I thought that was the logical choice for help. I really didn't think I needed analysis, but was intrigued by the therapy so I kept going. I do have multiple substance abuse problems (which I never really saw as "problems") and we have been working on that. I very recently "remembered" the sexual abuse, but "remembered" isn't exactly the right word. It's hard to explain, but I *knew* somewhere inside, somehow, that this had happened, but yet was shocked by actually thinking and admitting it. Does that make sense? I'm still grappling with it myself.
> I always thought that my depression was purely biological, but now I'm seeing that things that happened to me in my past may have contributed to the biological tendency toward depression. (I think this is called "double" depression). To be honest with you, I'm not sure yet where to go with this newfound revelation, but I guess coming to terms with it is better than not, and at least answers some questions that I had about my sexuality. Whatever you decide to do now about your past, I sincerely wish you the best. If you decide to explore it, know you aren't alone - apparently there are many of us dealing with these things. Keep posting here, maybe we can help each other through this awful process.
>
> Marie
> p.s. Isn't self deception the best?! :)
Posted by Kristi on May 20, 2001, at 14:48:14
In reply to Re: Anyone? » Kristi, posted by shelliR on May 19, 2001, at 20:37:26
> Kristi, I wanted to write two things to you in response to what you are telling us .
> First, about chronic fatigue syndrome: it is not just tiredness and lack of motivation. It almost always includes swollen glands and a sore throat, and other symptoms of infection. So I doubt that is what you have, unless you have those symptoms.
You are right! I don't have any of those symtoms. Thanks... can probably rule that out!
> Second, about dealing with repressed memories. You may decide now that you don't want to go searching after past memories, but my experience personally, and in knowing a lot of sexual and physical abuse survivors, is that eventually the memories come after you. Sometimes it seems out of nowhere and sometimes it is precipitated by something specific, e.g., having a daughter the same age as you were when you were abused.
Would you say you benifit by "un" repressing your memories?
> I would say for sure that you need to talk to someone about what you are feeling right now. A psychologist might be a good choice because they would not be pushing meds directly on you (although they might want you to go to a psychiatrist for a consultation.)
I really do have a good therapist. I need to search for a psychologist tho I think, to go a step or two deeper. And your right... no med pushing.. altho I have been to some pdoc's and did try what they suggested, but to no avail. What I did try... prozac, effexor, and celexa. All just seemed to make everything worse. As I was saying tho, I really like my therapist.. and she has helped with my mother's suicide.. and we have been recently talking about my childhood and she TRIES to get things about of me, but they just aren't there to give. That's why I think I may need to switch to a psychologist. Probably more training and possible better to "get things out of me" or spark memories?! Just thinking that may have a few more tricks for this.> I would not try to force memories to come up. They became repressed to protect you, and now even though you don't need that protection in the same way, you don't want to flood yourself with more than you can handle. Memories sort of have a life of their own. But when they come up, I would not push them back down either. I would anticipate for you that memories may come up eventually, and I would hope that you were working with someone who specializes that that field. Many specialists in trauma are now working with EMDR (you can find it on the web) rather than hypnosis, to process memories.
Wow.... I had no idea about the specialists in trauma that can help process memories. I will without a doubt look into that one.
If I did decide to go the hypnosis route... I would definately do some major research on a doctor. Still don't know what to do.. and you do have a good point... maybe forcing them out isn't the right thing to do... who knows, I go back and forth everyday. I wish they would just surface on their own.. make my decision easier. :-) boy how we are always looking for the easy way out.
> You might want to read some articles or books by Judith Herman-MD from Harvard. She has a rather simple and elegant way of describing what happens when repressed memories emerge, and what type of treatment is needed. She deals not only with victims of childhood abuse, but also political prisoners and war veterans. I believe she thinks it is important for everyone with a trauma background to both know their story and share their story (with a group or therapist, not with everyone you meet.) If you do a search, you'll come up with some stuff of hers on the web.
Thanks. I will definatly look into Judith. I am quite interested in hearing about how people have dealth with repressed "blockings" surfacing. I'll do the search... and again... thank you for your response and help. By the way... in your OPINION... after hearing a little about my story, do you think I should look into med's more? Or do you think this could all be resolved through therapy? Just your opinion.. I read many of your posts and you seem quite knowledgable and intelligent. Thanks again!Take care, Kristi
Posted by Kristi on May 20, 2001, at 14:52:29
In reply to Re: Anyone?, posted by PuraVida on May 18, 2001, at 23:16:07
> I've tried hypnotherapy also, and it worked well in conjunction with meds and therapist's visits. I think the best part is the visualization. Unfortunatley not covered by insurance, so I've had to quit going for now... Maybe after bing reminded that it did work to get me in a more positive, motivated state of mind, I might need to go back -
>
> LizThanks for your input Liz.. Much appreciated! Can I ask what kind of med's you are taking in conjuction with the therapy?
Posted by Kristi on May 20, 2001, at 14:54:31
In reply to Re: Anyone?-Kristi-Marie......, posted by Kristi on May 20, 2001, at 13:56:23
I am sorry I am taking up so much space on here.. I feel bad.. but you have all been soooooooo helpful! Thanks for all the responses and help. Your the best. To think strangers can care so much totally restores my faith in humanity. :-)
Thanks,
Kristi
>
>
> Hi!
> I wrote you back on the other board... psycho social... so go on over if ya can. :-) I kind of having a feeling it was going to be re-directed there anyway. Thanks... Kristi
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hi Kristi,
> >
> > I'm glad my previous post didn't offend you; around here it's not safe to assume anything when responding to people :)!!
> > In answer to your questions, I *don't think* I've repressed alot of stuff from childhood, but as I posted on the psb board, I am feeling like I never know whats going to come out in therapy these days. I only began seeing a psychiatrist because I developed major depression (I had dysthymia for years), and since pdocs can prescribe, I thought that was the logical choice for help. I really didn't think I needed analysis, but was intrigued by the therapy so I kept going. I do have multiple substance abuse problems (which I never really saw as "problems") and we have been working on that. I very recently "remembered" the sexual abuse, but "remembered" isn't exactly the right word. It's hard to explain, but I *knew* somewhere inside, somehow, that this had happened, but yet was shocked by actually thinking and admitting it. Does that make sense? I'm still grappling with it myself.
> > I always thought that my depression was purely biological, but now I'm seeing that things that happened to me in my past may have contributed to the biological tendency toward depression. (I think this is called "double" depression). To be honest with you, I'm not sure yet where to go with this newfound revelation, but I guess coming to terms with it is better than not, and at least answers some questions that I had about my sexuality. Whatever you decide to do now about your past, I sincerely wish you the best. If you decide to explore it, know you aren't alone - apparently there are many of us dealing with these things. Keep posting here, maybe we can help each other through this awful process.
> >
> > Marie
> > p.s. Isn't self deception the best?! :)
Posted by stjames on May 20, 2001, at 17:57:25
In reply to Anyone?, posted by Kristi on May 18, 2001, at 16:48:18
> Hi,
> I am new to the board.. well, not exactly new but first time posting anyway.
> I really haven't had to ask too many questions because by searching the posts, most of them are answered for me.
> But what I really wish to know... I have had zero luck with AD's. Yuck, I seem to have the worst side effects with all that I've tried. Actually, through therapy and other odd ball ways... I am less depresed and seem to be enjoying life much better. But the one thing I'm having problems with is motivation.James here.....
Thank you for thanking me (and others) ! Thank you also for using the archives ! Could you give me some more info ?
1) Tell us every AD you have tried, dose, length of treatment and positive/negative effects
2) Describe your depression and motivation issues
a little more. Like what can or can't you do, what are your thoughts and moods like, how changable are your moods, ect.At the neurological level "motvation" is a noradernergic issue.
James
Posted by shelliR on May 20, 2001, at 19:51:30
In reply to Re: Anyone?--Shelli, posted by Kristi on May 20, 2001, at 14:48:14
Hi Kristie
< Would you say you benefit by "un" repressing your memories? >
I have never been successful in purposefully or totally "un" repressing my memories. My defense system is quite complex. I do not have Dissociative Identity Disorder (MPD), but I do have different personalities --all children inside that hold all the memories. It is sort of their choice whether to share the memories and lately most of them feeling really safe, and say "enough memories!" (BTW, if you met me, you would have no idea that there are personalities inside). There is one personality who holds information that I know about and don't remember (involving my brother) and I think I'm hoping to find have that memory as mine but I feel pretty scared about memories. And I don't see it as my conscious choice exactly. It is often an excruciating process to recall repressed memories, sometimes involving at the beginning uncontrolled flashbacks--where you can't turn the memories off--they are there with all their horror. Then the task in therapy is to learn what is called "containment"--learning to put the memories away when it is not useful to watch them replay again and again and again. I do think if you go through a process of retrieving memories, processing them, then being able to put them in the background again you do come out a healthier, more truely confident person. But it is so hard.
That is why I say I would not go looking for memories. I think you should read all you can on the subject, so that if the memories come, you will be somewhat ready. Again, as I said before, generally something specific will set off the memories. According to studies, most people do not go into therapy to retrieve the memories; they go into therapy after the memories have come up, in order to deal with them. Memories involve four aspects (1) behavior (2) affect; (3)sensation; and (4) knowledge. I think that's what Marie may have been talking about when she said she remembered, but then she really remembered. You can know, for example, that something happened to you (cognition), without remembering what it felt like at the time emotionally (affect) or how your body felt (sensation).
>
> I really do have a good therapist. I need to search for a psychologist tho I think, to go a step or two deeper. <If you have a good therapy he/she might surprise you and be able to go deeper with you, when the material presents itself; I don't know. A good therapist will not try to "get things out of you" because a good therapist will respect your defense system. A good therapist will only follow your lead.
It is when the memories are there that you might need to switch to someone who knows how to work with memories, so you feel as safe as possible during the process.
>
I wish they would just surface on their own.. make my decision easier. :-) boy how we are always looking for the easy way out. >As my therapist would say, "Be careful what you wish for :-).
< after hearing a little about my story, do you think I should look into med's more? Or do you think this could all be resolved through therapy? Just your opinion. >
I think you need to do what feels right for you. I don't think you should be going through horrible psychic pain, if there is a medication that will help you. On the other hand, if you feel more in touch with your process of therapy without medication, that's your choice. I was so severely depressed and anxious that I took medication without a second thought. But I am also very sensitive to medications, so I understand your hesitation.
I think medication is a wonderful thing--it keeps some of us alive. But I'm also thinking there are people like my sister who went on medication after her divorce, quit therapy, has stayed on medication for the last ten years and decided she doesn't care about a lot of things besides her daughter. I think she is someone who would have done better with a short course of medication and a longer course of therapy. It really depends on how you feel. I wouldn't write off meds because you haven't found the right one yet though. But I think that if your depression is not getting in the way of working out things in therapy, and not getting too much in the way of your life, you might wait, and see how therapy plays out.
Since this is a board about medication, you are not likely to get that opintion from too many people, I think. Also, remember you can always change your mind--start taking or stop taking.
Here's a resource on the board about all the studies on repressed memories, which you might want to scan:
http://www.jimhopper.com/memory.I certainly have given you wishy-washy opinions, but your questions are really quite complex and I don't have really one way of looking at this process, except to make it the easiest possible for all abuse survivors.
And please, don't apologize for using the board, that's why it's here!Shelli
Posted by Kristi on May 20, 2001, at 22:50:13
In reply to Re: Anyone? Kristi, posted by stjames on May 20, 2001, at 17:57:25
> James here.....
> Thank you for thanking me (and others) ! Thank you also for using the archives ! Could you give me some more info ?Of course....
> 1) Tell us every AD you have tried, dose, length of treatment and positive/negative effectsFirst AD was Prozac. I believe I was on 40mg for approx 4 months. I really didn't feel any positive on this one. Negative... major shakiness, to the point where I couldn't even type/write, around the clock. Insomnia, naseau.. I have the least memory of this one since it was farther back.
Next was Effexor XR. Started at 37.5 and worked up to 150mg. Stayed on 150mg for about 2 months. Felt very apathetic. Which I kind of liked... mentally, but psyically no motivation. It leveled out my "emotions". At the time I started the AD's.. after a family suicide.. I just bottomed out... anxiety attacks, crying 24/7. The effexor helped that. But almost to the point where it felt like I didn't have emotion. Then I felt guilty... because It was almost blocking me from some grieving. I know.. sounds weird. I didn't want to grieve, but I did want to grieve. So anyway.... the last month for some reason I was just constantly sick. I couldn't hold anything down. I was down to 92 lbs, my normal weight is usually within 110-115. Dizziness.... I would wake up in the middle of the night and try to walk to the bathroom or whatever and literally run into walls or even fall. Then a rash developed on my neck... that's when I stopped.
Lastly...celexa.... helped the crying.... but I was very agitated.... but tired at the same time. Just an overall "weird" feeling. I only stayed on that for 4 weeks. Then I basically gave up on the AD's.
> 2) Describe your depression and motivation issues
> a little more. Like what can or can't you do, what are your thoughts and moods like, how changable are your moods, ect.
My depression seems to be getting better everyday. I feel less and less "sorry for myself".... no longer thoughts of suicide.. in general feel better... but it doesn't take much to set me off.....
I can do just about anything... but it's a major torchure getting myself to do it. But once I'm doing it, I'm fine. Like work.... dread it, stall, get there... I'm fine. My moods basically are good when I'm around people, and bad when I'm alone. I'm single and 31, and live alone.
> At the neurological level "motvation" is a noradernergic issue.
I'm not sure what that means(sorry).. :-) What's noradernergic? Your probably all laughing at me for having to ask that. J/k.James
Thanks for responding James!
Posted by Kristi on May 21, 2001, at 0:25:23
In reply to Re: Anyone?--Shelli » Kristi, posted by shelliR on May 20, 2001, at 19:51:30
I have never been successful in purposefully or totally "un" repressing my memories. My defense system is quite complex. I do not have Dissociative Identity Disorder (MPD), but I do have different personalities --all children inside that hold all the memories. It is sort of their choice whether to share the memories and lately most of them feeling really safe, and say "enough memories!" (BTW, if you met me, you would have no idea that there are personalities inside). There is one personality who holds information that I know about and don't remember (involving my brother) and I think I'm hoping to find have that memory as mine but I feel pretty scared about memories. And I don't see it as my conscious choice exactly. It is often an excruciating process to recall repressed memories, sometimes involving at the beginning uncontrolled flashbacks--where you can't turn the memories off--they are there with all their horror. Then the task in therapy is to learn what is called "containment"--learning to put the memories away when it is not useful to watch them replay again and again and again. I do think if you go through a process of retrieving memories, processing them, then being able to put them in the background again you do come out a healthier, more truely confident person. But it is so hard.
Wow... you have me floored. So did these memories just kind of pop out of the blue for you? These flashback things.... or where you in a setting, or something else that set them off? Your right... it definately sounds hard,and somewhat terrifying. When you "replay" them... are you consciencely replaying them?
> That is why I say I would not go looking for memories. I think you should read all you can on the subject, so that if the memories come, you will be somewhat ready. Again, as I said before, generally something specific will set off the memories. According to studies, most people do not go into therapy to retrieve the memories; they go into therapy after the memories have come up, in order to deal with them. Memories involve four aspects (1) behavior (2) affect; (3)sensation; and (4) knowledge. I think that's what Marie may have been talking about when she said she remembered, but then she really remembered. You can know, for example, that something happened to you (cognition), without remembering what it felt like at the time emotionally (affect) or how your body felt (sensation).Okay... that somewhat just answered the question I just asked(I should have read a little further.. :-))
> If you have a good therapy he/she might surprise you and be able to go deeper with you, when the material presents itself; I don't know. A good therapist will not try to "get things out of you" because a good therapist will respect your defense system. A good therapist will only follow your lead.
That is probably where she is coming from now.. We have talked in great depth about recent things that have happened.. and every now and then I do bring up how I wonder about my childhood.. and she never questions it to much.... maybe she doesn't think it's the right time yet so to speak.
> It is when the memories are there that you might need to switch to someone who knows how to work with memories, so you feel as safe as possible during the process.
Makes good sense!
As my therapist would say, "Be careful what you wish for :-).
Again..... Makes good sense!
I think you need to do what feels right for you. I don't think you should be going through horrible psychic pain, if there is a medication that will help you. On the other hand, if you feel more in touch with your process of therapy without medication, that's your choice. I was so severely depressed and anxious that I took medication without a second thought. But I am also very sensitive to medications, so I understand your hesitation.
>
> I think medication is a wonderful thing--it keeps some of us alive. But I'm also thinking there are people like my sister who went on medication after her divorce, quit therapy, has stayed on medication for the last ten years and decided she doesn't care about a lot of things besides her daughter. I think she is someone who would have done better with a short course of medication and a longer course of therapy. It really depends on how you feel. I wouldn't write off meds because you haven't found the right one yet though. But I think that if your depression is not getting in the way of working out things in therapy, and not getting too much in the way of your life, you might wait, and see how therapy plays out.My depression really isn't getting in the way as far as working things out in therapy... so yeah.. sounds sound. I shouldn't really worry too much about that if this is working ok for me so far. My only real problem is fatigue.. but I'm sort of conquering that also little by little.
> Since this is a board about medication, you are not likely to get that opintion from too many people, I think. Also, remember you can always change your mind--start taking or stop taking.
>
> Here's a resource on the board about all the studies on repressed memories, which you might want to scan:
> http://www.jimhopper.com/memory.Thanks.... I'll check it out.
> I certainly have given you wishy-washy opinions, but your questions are really quite complex and I don't have really one way of looking at this process, except to make it the easiest possible for all abuse survivors.
> And please, don't apologize for using the board, that's why it's here!
>
> Shelli
Oh.... your advice/opinions were not at all wishy washy. In fact... very much resembled the way I'm thinking about it. I really appreciate it... thanks for taking the time!
This is the end of the thread.
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