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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 38. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Help on October 4, 1999, at 20:25:24
All Alone.
Posted by Phil on October 4, 1999, at 20:37:24
In reply to WHY?, posted by Help on October 4, 1999, at 20:25:24
> All Alone.
Help, Wish I had the answer...spend almost all my non-work time the same way. Why....usually fear. Of what? I don't know what. Tides turn.
Phil
Posted by Help on October 4, 1999, at 22:28:01
In reply to Re: WHY?, posted by Phil on October 4, 1999, at 20:37:24
What if there is nothing else but all alone? Then WHY?
> > All Alone.
>
> Help, Wish I had the answer...spend almost all my non-work time the same way. Why....usually fear. Of what? I don't know what. Tides turn.
>
> Phil
What if there is nothing else but all alone?
Posted by Dee on October 4, 1999, at 23:15:14
In reply to WHY?, posted by Help on October 4, 1999, at 20:25:24
> All Alone.
I've come to this board crying for help, crying for someone to listen to me, someone to understand... Is what we really want someone who can understand us, to whom we could cry out the pain that is undescribable. ‘Who, if I cried out would hear me among the Angel's hierarchies...' as Rilke put it. I know someone does - not an angel, but we must take turns to be angels for each others, because we, and we alone, can relate to the full range of pain when someone cries a single word:'Help'.As long as we are able to express that word, we can express our full pain, our entire hopelessness that sometimes seems to continue from eternity to eternity, and how tired we are, how distant and separate we sometimes feel, how we are sometimes afraid to cry out because we fear that if we start we won't be able to stop.
This will pass, as it must. And perhaps you must go through what you are going through right now so that when I, or someone else cries help, you can be an angel.
I'll be checking this post, hoping to hear from you.
This will pass.Dee
Posted by Dee on October 4, 1999, at 23:19:42
In reply to Re: WHY?, posted by Dee on October 4, 1999, at 23:15:14
> > All Alone.
>
>This was supposed to be the beginning of my previous post but I meesed it up - Better late than never:
I don't ask that any more. I find that ‘WHY' is a question that can never be answered. Every child knows that, and naively asks the question that each answer brings up. There is a chain of causality that apparently is none of our business.Or maybe the problem is in the question, that we assume that there is an original cause. We just grow out of this earth and spend some time, like leaves come out of the tree. Why? Why tree in the first place? I once wrote that the ultimate question cannot be asked, and the answer to that question is silence. That was one of my more poetic moments.
I feel lonely, too. We all do, I guess. Maybe we have been conditioned to expect something that just isn't there, and of frustration of not being able to capture that which cannot be captured we do not notice what is there for us.
Posted by Noa on October 5, 1999, at 4:29:57
In reply to Re: WHY?, posted by Dee on October 4, 1999, at 23:19:42
> > > All Alone.
1. We're here.2. When I find myself asking "why?" it usually means there is a subtext statement of self blame. I find that if I can suspend the need to have an answer to the "why?", it helps, because it interrupts the self-blaming a bit. Like Dee said, maybe there is no answer.
Posted by Help on October 5, 1999, at 7:27:09
In reply to Re: WHY?, posted by Noa on October 5, 1999, at 4:29:57
May be. May be there is no reason great enough to justify the pain. May be there is no help. May be there is only all alone.
Posted by diane on October 5, 1999, at 9:21:50
In reply to Re: WHY?, posted by Help on October 5, 1999, at 7:27:09
> May be. May be there is no reason great enough to justify the pain. May be there is no help. May be there is only all alone.
"All alone" is an illusion. You are not alone. If at all possible,
get yourself to a 12-step meeting of some sort - Codependents
anonymous, adult children of alcoholics, something like that.
there are people out there who will support and listen to you.
it costs nothing. you can connect with other people. these
groups saved my life. later, i got hooked up with a psychologist
and a psychiatrist...but the first step was getting connected to
people who were going through what i was going through.the purpose of your life will start to unfold...it's a lifelong
process, always changing.if you feel so hopeless that you want to give up, please
please call a hotline or a friend or a coworker and
tell them what you feel. you're not in a position to
decide whether life is worth living or not. first get
some help. then decide if life is worth living.respectfully,
diane
Posted by Racer on October 5, 1999, at 11:48:52
In reply to Re: WHY?, posted by Help on October 5, 1999, at 7:27:09
> May be. May be there is no reason great enough to justify the pain. May be there is no help. May be there is only all alone.
Usually, I would erase the post I'm answering, but I think you need to read your words again. They're so very sad.
Here's a scrap of poetry for you:
They say my verse is sad,
No wonder,
Its narrow measure spans
Tears of eternity and sorrow,
Not mine, but man's.That's from A.E.Housman, a poet whose verse always helps me put my pain in perspective.
As for what you're feeling right now, I have felt something that may be similar. A few months ago I was posting here that I was terrified, because I wanted nothing more than to kill myself, but knew that wasn't really what I wanted. I wanted the pain to go away, and thought it never could. I couldn't bear the pain and the loneliness. I had no hope of anything ever getting better, because my life was much too awful to bear.
Guess what? New meds and I was able to lift up my eyes from the shadows, and see that there had been people around me all the time, but they didn't know how to reach me. Not only that, the cure for my loneliness wasn't to show others how to reach out to me, but to reach out for them myself. Yesterday I called my boss at home and told her I was dropping by, and did. Guess what? She was happy that I did. She was flattered that I made the effort, rather than forcing her to reach out to me.
But the real answer here is that my depression was destroying any hope of seeing the world in perspective. All I could see was the pain and loneliness in front of me. All I could feel was despair. The new meds fixed the depression, allowing me to fix the rest of my life - or at least start to fix it.
You know what else? I recently met a man. He's something special, and I hope that we'll be together for the rest of my life. Even if we aren't, I'm feeling so good with him right now that anything is worth it. If I had killed myself, if I hadn't held on (with much help here from others on this board), I would never have experienced this sensation. I would have ended my suffering in a moment of pain and despair, without ever having tasted the joy possible in life. What a tragedy that would have been.
None of this would have made a difference to me when I was depressed, of course. I only hope that it offers to you a sense that you're not as alone as you may believe. No, we're not in your living room with you, but we ARE here. Lean on us, and let us try to help. We have mostly experienced similar states, and we want to help in any way we can.
Posted by allison on October 5, 1999, at 17:35:58
In reply to Re: WHY?, posted by Help on October 5, 1999, at 7:27:09
May be there is only all alone.
Sometimes, for me, there is only all alone. Sometimes the pain comes in great waves. They knock me down. I feel there is nothing but all alone and I think things will never change. But in the back of my mind I know I have to wait and see. Because when I wait those feelings out, sometimes I'll come up feeling like -- hey, I'm OK afterall, at least for today or a few days. Maybe a week. Sometimes it takes everything I've got inside of me, but when that great darkness comes, I reach out to somebody and try to make some sort of contact. A phone call. A letter. Sometimes I write it all out in a journal just to expel at least part of it from me. Sometimes this doesn't work, but usually it does. When things get really really bad, I go to bed because I know that's a safe place to weather the storm. Ok, I'm treading water. Hell, I've been treading water for two years now, waiting for life to calm down, and for therapy and meds to kick in enough to make this tide change for good. But for now, those feelings come and go. When they come, I know I'm not thinking straight. I know it's not the time to make any sort of big, final decision. I let myself off the hook in answering the big questions, figuring I can take them up again when things aren't so very dark. It's all I can offer. But please know you're not alone here.
Posted by Dee on October 5, 1999, at 22:51:05
In reply to WHY?, posted by Help on October 4, 1999, at 20:25:24
> All Alone.
Strangest thing I've found: This is not a fact. With my 20/20 hindsight I can tell that it was not that I was unloved, or able to give or receive love, that there is nothing inherently unlovable in me. It is an inbalance of my neurotransimitters that makes me think so. THIS IS NOT A FACT! It is just a feeling, a ghost that has come alive in my head and makes me feel bad about myself. But that ghost is stuck in MY mind, other people cannot see it, or listen to it. Mine is gone with medication, and I am stunned as I suddenly notice that I am having converstaions with people! Like I never thought I could, that people are starting to call my house to have a chat. Just now I sat down with someone to have a cup of tea and a long talk, after spending all winter insolating, alone. Thinking there cannot possibly be anything for me out there... Nothing, nothing at all. The ghost still occasionally raises its ugly voise but I mostly find its sqwaks impotent and pitiful.
I've found that we are never alone...
and you are not alone, not his moment, we are all with you.
Love
Dee
Posted by Bob on October 6, 1999, at 0:02:45
In reply to Re: WHY?, posted by Help on October 5, 1999, at 7:27:09
> May be. May be there is no reason great enough to justify the pain. May be there is no help. May be there is only all alone.
Why would you want to justify pain? There is no reason you were meant to be in pain. There is no reason you were meant to be alone. Why? You are not _meant_ to be either of those, that's why.
So stop trying to justify it.
Help starts with number one. If you're looking for a reason as to why pain is a just and proper burden for you to bear, then some small part of you, at the least, has accepted being a victim. Don't let your pain turn you into some helpless victim, passively accepting your "due". If you want help, then you have to grab it.
But you already know that ... you came to this board and spoke up, didn't you?
That is a good start. You came here and rather eloquently asked for help with a word and a nickname. So, what are you going to do next? Some of your friends here on this board have some good suggestions. Pick one and do it.
"Help" may be the best name for you. Maybe you meant it as a cry, but it is also your own answer. If alone is what you believe yourself to be, then you must be the Help you need.
We can offer advice and a sympathetic ear. We understand, maybe unlike anyone around you (or so you may believe), because we've been in the same dark place (and maybe not all that long ago).
But Help, you've gotta do the work for yourself.
No apologies, no surrender
Bob
"Every year it's the same
and I feel it again
I'm a loser, no chance to win.
Leaves caught falling
Comedown is calling
Lonliness starts sinking in
But I'm one
I am one
And I can see
that this is me
and I will be
You'll all see
I'm the one"
-- Pete Townsend
Posted by dj on October 6, 1999, at 1:17:55
In reply to There is no "why", posted by Bob on October 6, 1999, at 0:02:45
Bob,
You're in a scrappy mood tonight, my man, by the tenor of your postings. Looks good on you!
Further to your very eloquent comments to HELP he/she might want to consider the buddhist viewpoint which differentiates between pain and suffering. Pain is just pain, and suffering comes from not letting go of the pain or the pleasure for that matter. ie. -- always expecting things to be different than they are rather than accepting and dealing with them as they are. What is, is, as Janice and others would say. And as some teens put it, get over it!
So from my understanding of the buddhist perspective you need to quit nurturing your pain to lessen and perhaps let go of your suffering. Easier said than done but there have been many helpful suggestions made to you. So get over it and get on with it. Self pity can be very addicing, as I know only too well, but so can self affirmation, or so I am told... ; > !
> > May be. May be there is no reason great enough to justify the pain. May be there is no help. May be there is only all alone.
>
> Why would you want to justify pain? There is no reason you were meant to be in pain. There is no reason you were meant to be alone. Why? You are not _meant_ to be either of those, that's why.
>
> So stop trying to justify it.
>
> Help starts with number one. If you're looking for a reason as to why pain is a just and proper burden for you to bear, then some small part of you, at the least, has accepted being a victim. Don't let your pain turn you into some helpless victim, passively accepting your "due". If you want help, then you have to grab it.
>
Posted by Bob on October 6, 1999, at 11:02:31
In reply to Re: There is no "why", posted by dj on October 6, 1999, at 1:17:55
Knowing ignorance is strength.
Ignoring knowledge is sickness.If one is sick of sickness, then one is not sick.
The sage is not sick because he is sick of sickness.
Therefore, he is not sick.
Posted by Dee on October 6, 1999, at 11:53:24
In reply to Tao Te Ching, verse 71, posted by Bob on October 6, 1999, at 11:02:31
S. Mitchell's translation:
Notknowing is true knowledge.
Presuming to know is a disease.
First realize that you are sick;
then you can move toward health.The Master is her own physician.
She has healed herself of all knowing.
Thus she is truly whole.
Posted by phyl on October 6, 1999, at 17:32:38
In reply to Re: WHY?, posted by Help on October 5, 1999, at 7:27:09
> May be. May be there is no reason great enough to justify the pain. May be there is no help. May be there is only all alone.
Why--This page http://mentalhelp.net/samaritans/textfry.htm made sense to me when I felt that there wasn't any help. I'm not even sure who the fella is but he spoke of the despair and nothingness I've felt. There are people to talk to even when we feel like we are all alone.
You don't have to make sense of it all. This board is a wonderful place to test the waters of sharing our pain with others who DO understand. No one knows exactly what it is that you are feeling but perhaps typing out a tiny bit of that nothingness you feel will allow us to relate. I know that I've felt the pointlessness of it all many, many, many times. I'm still here, thanks in part to finding others like me who can understand my despair, my ups and downs, my most painful moments. I've found this help by reading the posts on this board, in books like On the Edge of Darkness--Kathy Cronkite, by calling anonymous numbers where the trained people on the other end of the line are there specifically to listen to me in my darkest hours...helping me through to that speck of light that has always come, even when I didn't believe it ever would.
I don't claim to have answers...I can only offer pieces of the path I have traveled in hopes that maybe it will strike a chord of recognition and maybe even give the gift of a glimmer of hope. I've spent years in and out of the deepest, most painful place one can imagine and yet--I am still here. I am gently holding you in my heart with the tender care that others(often strangers) showed me in my times of utter despair. My heart is with you. --phyl
Posted by Noa on October 6, 1999, at 22:03:05
In reply to Re: WHY?, posted by phyl on October 6, 1999, at 17:32:38
This may be just semantics, but I tend to understand the words "self pity" or "feeling sorry for oneself" differently than most people do. To me it is not a bad thing. But to blame oneself, which is what many of us do when we experience pain, ah, that is the thing to avoid. That is the suffering.
Posted by Noa on October 6, 1999, at 22:07:01
In reply to Re: WHY?, posted by phyl on October 6, 1999, at 17:32:38
The two translations somehow reminded me of the old story of the computer translation of the proverb "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" from English to Russian and back to English. APparently it came back as "The vodka is tasty but the meat is rotten".
Posted by Bob on October 6, 1999, at 23:35:08
In reply to Re: WHY? 2) silly post, posted by Noa on October 6, 1999, at 22:07:01
> The two translations somehow reminded me of the old story of the computer translation of the proverb "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" from English to Russian and back to English. APparently it came back as "The vodka is tasty but the meat is rotten".
While funny, I don't think it's all that silly. It gets to the heart of the matter. Meaning shifts from moment to moment. The "true" answer to Why? right here, right now isn't written in stone, but rather (as Sting put it) "on the surface of a lake."
Back to the computer metaphor:
The first version of the Newton (Apple's PDA that brought handwriting recognition to the, uh, well, technophiles ... yeah) had a recognition program that also tried to spellcheck for you automatically -- not only did it take a stab at turning your scribbles into computer text, it tried to figure out what you really meant to write. So, someone wrote in the poem Jabberwocky to see what would come out. The result was a new poem called "Tablespoons" ... "Oh fractious day! Cartoon! Cathay! He chortled in his joy"GIGO ... garbage in, garbage out.
Perhaps a better take on Why? from a computer perspective is like the old joke about Microsoft Technical Support -- "100% accurate, and completely useless". There are more important questions to ask. Where next? How? When?
(When? Maybe tomorrow ... it's past my bedtime and I still gotta post a new thread.)
Bob
Posted by Racer on October 7, 1999, at 6:22:52
In reply to Re: WHY? 2) silly post, posted by Bob on October 6, 1999, at 23:35:08
The original computer translation was to Japanese and back. "The wine was good, but the meat had spoiled" came back when the phrase went through the translator from English to Japanese and back. That was decades ago, with the first string of AI trials.
As for the meaning issue, while this is supposed to be a silly post, there is a serious side to it. Wittgenstein's word games covers this, but I can't make my brain work enough to try to explain it. Basically, boundaries of meaning are fluid. We must draw them according to our current needs. Philosophical Investigations, section 66 (I think).
As for the language, this is the trouble with it: language is so easy a baby can learn it, yet so complex that a computer can't. Explains a lot about MS's grammar checker, huh?
Posted by Bob on October 7, 1999, at 9:44:56
In reply to Re: WHY? 2) silly post, posted by Racer on October 7, 1999, at 6:22:52
Help, you see where all this has gone?
I'd like to apologize and say I don't mean to make light of your feelings, but having been there and beyond most often the only saving grace is realizing the absolute absurdity of your situation. My life has taken a sudden and somewhat unexpected plunge into hell in the last week, the paranoia is creeping in that its not the rest of the world but, rather, it truly is me who doesn't fit and that the pain and despair and betrayal I've experienced is all well-deserved.
The only thing I can of think at that moment, besides wondering how cool it would be to take a flying leap off the top of the World Trade Center, is how patently absurd this conspiracy theory is. Shit happens. Preferably, there would be a uniform distribution of it throught the population, but it just ain't so. I doubt it's random. But, for me, the only way to avoid it happening is to maneuver yourself above all the sphincters pointed your way. Again, the best way for me to start that process is a good laugh at what's been messing with me.
So, Help, I wish you these things:
1) That you feel welcome with the response that you've received.
2) That you know that even though we've never seen your face nor heard your voice -- all the same, you are our friend.
3) That you've been at least distracted, and preferably laughing as we slide from Why? to semiotics to word games and hermeneutics to misquoting Brits to "the Tao that can be told is not the Eternal Tao". That last bit is my best answer to Why? You can say what you want, but it will never be enough.So laugh at it instead,
No, I mean laugh like you MEAN it.
Bob
Posted by Help on October 7, 1999, at 11:43:33
In reply to Now, just look at what you've done!, posted by Bob on October 7, 1999, at 9:44:56
Sorry, Bob. Feelings behind words in some posts reach deep. The play with words and emotions sends me away. Do not feel the humor. Have used humor all my life to mitigate the sadness. Have used words to distance from the pain. Have never viewed self as victim. Have prepared for the fight every day of my life. Just tired of the humor,words & fight. Glad you are not. Glad to hear other people who are not. Thanks for reaching into my world. It does count. It does make a difference.
Posted by Bob on October 7, 1999, at 11:58:19
In reply to Help, posted by Help on October 7, 1999, at 11:43:33
Then I'll pray that you can find the humor that heals soon. I'm glad to hear that some of the words above have helped.
Be well,
Bob
Posted by Noa on October 7, 1999, at 14:19:49
In reply to Re: Help, posted by Bob on October 7, 1999, at 11:58:19
Re: Why 2) Silly Post....is this related to Y2K?
Posted by Noa on October 7, 1999, at 14:22:09
In reply to Another silly thought, posted by Noa on October 7, 1999, at 14:19:49
Bob, are you ok? You have been sounding a bit revved in the direction of irritable, angry, etc. lately. (Me? I've just been heading in the direction of clanging and non-sequitur).
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