![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 39. Go back in thread:
Posted by Damos on May 10, 2005, at 16:49:41
In reply to For Sunny: Please EVERYONE contribute, posted by PM80 on May 10, 2005, at 12:01:49
I love our Sunny just because she is. She has the power to make me laugh and cry, to make my heart ache and break, to make me want to be better and more than I am, to reach out and give her the biggest hugs imaginable, to make me proud to know her, and just so much else besides.
((((Sunny))))
Posted by Dinah on May 10, 2005, at 20:35:24
In reply to For Sunny: Please EVERYONE contribute, posted by PM80 on May 10, 2005, at 12:01:49
Sunny, I always enjoy your input. Your posts are not only insightful and sensitive, but also quite sensible. You've got an awful lot to offer the world.
Posted by Tamar on May 11, 2005, at 6:51:10
In reply to Re: For Sunny: Please EVERYONE contribute, posted by Dinah on May 10, 2005, at 20:35:24
I love Sunny because she is generous and wise. Her posts to me always make me feel valued, and I get a lot out of her posts to other people too.
((((Sunny))))
Posted by sunny10 on May 11, 2005, at 9:42:11
In reply to Re: For Sunny: Please EVERYONE contribute, posted by Tamar on May 11, 2005, at 6:51:10
why is it that no one IRL sees me the way you guys do????
Posted by partlycloudy on May 11, 2005, at 10:28:59
In reply to Re: now you've made me cry...., posted by sunny10 on May 11, 2005, at 9:42:11
> why is it that no one IRL sees me the way you guys do????
This is a magical place where our true selves can shine. I think the anonymity of Babble helps us there in feeling more free to express ourselves. IRL there are too many distractions - visual, auditory, you name it - and it's harder to see the Sunny that we can see and appreciate so very clearly here.
Perhaps you might want to print this thread out and tape it up where you can be reminded how many people out there know how special and valued you are.
Posted by sunny10 on May 11, 2005, at 12:14:53
In reply to Re: now you've made me cry.... » sunny10, posted by partlycloudy on May 11, 2005, at 10:28:59
how pathetic IS it that we live in a world in which we are not free to be ourselves?
That we have to live in a world where we are afraid to be ourselves?
How did the world become this way?
Posted by partlycloudy on May 11, 2005, at 14:09:02
In reply to Re: PC, posted by sunny10 on May 11, 2005, at 12:14:53
> how pathetic IS it that we live in a world in which we are not free to be ourselves?
>
> That we have to live in a world where we are afraid to be ourselves?
>
> How did the world become this way?I know, it's pretty bad, isn't it? I suppose I could call it a "Western" cultural thang, or an American Puritan holdover from the Mayflower, lol. Still, I feel lucky to have found this place where we can be ourselves.
pc
Posted by sunny10 on May 11, 2005, at 15:41:53
In reply to Re: PC » sunny10, posted by partlycloudy on May 11, 2005, at 14:09:02
Posted by AuntieMel on May 11, 2005, at 16:23:43
In reply to For Sunny: Please EVERYONE contribute, posted by PM80 on May 10, 2005, at 12:01:49
Because Sunny isn't shallow. She thinks about things before reacting (most of the time). Because she cares and is learning to care about herself.
Posted by AdaGrace on May 11, 2005, at 17:47:52
In reply to Re: For Sunny: Please EVERYONE contribute, posted by AuntieMel on May 11, 2005, at 16:23:43
I am starting to understand the "not giving up" thing. I recalled the other day that I was repeated asked to "not give up" on a certain someone. And I didn't. I look back now and I realize that I gave him everything I could, including as many chances that he asked for. In the end, he was the one who gave up. Sadly though I still haven't. We don't speak, I haven't heard from him since February, and that cold message still stings, but I haven't given up hope that one day we will be together, if only for companionship and nothing more. I have to feed this fantasy, because to let the dream die means I die as well.
So therefore, I have an announcement to make. Sunny, I admire what you are doing. To instill faith in the untrustable is something not many would or could do. I understand how much you love this man.
Now, having said that, I also understand others aprehension about your SO and the fear they have for you and your safety. It's a natural feeling to be worried about someone who seems to be jumping out of the frying pan into the fire. I know I feel that way towards you as well. But I just wanted to say that even though I feel it is very possible that this man will hurt you again in the future, I realize and understand why you are doing what you are doing. Who knows right? Who really knows but you and him......
Posted by sunny10 on May 12, 2005, at 8:47:57
In reply to Re: Synny » AuntieMel, posted by AdaGrace on May 11, 2005, at 17:47:52
In response, particularly to this...
> It's a natural feeling to be worried about someone who seems to be jumping out of the frying pan into the fire. I know I feel that way towards you as well. But I just wanted to say that even though I feel it is very possible that this man will hurt you again in the future, I realize and understand why you are doing what you are doing. Who knows right? Who really knows but you and him......>
I am counting on the T to know! I have already met with the T who will help both of us individually for anger mgmt, and then bring us together for couples counselling. I have told this T that I have serious trust issues at this point and that I am counting on him to help me see whether my SO is really committted to make things work with me IN A NON-MANIPULATIVE WAY or not. Of course the T said that he will help me figure that out and that he doesn't believe in charging money for couples counselling that is never going to result in a happy couple!I am truly not going in blind, here... I am relying on a professional, licensed psychologist.
Obviously, I do not live in a vacuum- I know about the cycles of abuse, Narcissists, et cetera.
I absolutely want to be sure that I am not planning a life with one of them. That's precisely why I'm bringing in the professional!Does that make anyone feel any better about my safety? To some exent, I AM jumping from the pan into the fire (maybe towards a truth that I don't want to see)... but I've got a fireman (the anger mgmt T) lined up to put it out if the fire spreads instead of going out on its own, and an EMT on standby to help me deal with yet another loss in my life if this doesn't work out with my SO (separate T).
Can you think of any safer way for me to get the answer I seek (one way of the other)?
If I don't try, I will feel as if I failed- I will also wonder for the rest of my life if I threw away slightly damaged goods that would have been perfect for me had they been repaired...
Posted by AdaGrace on May 13, 2005, at 9:21:11
In reply to Re: Synny » AdaGrace, posted by sunny10 on May 12, 2005, at 8:47:57
First of all please forgive my typo of your name......sounds like SIN ny.....LOL
I understand what you are saying and I think you have taken a positive, intelligent approach. Just because I am a pesamist at times, does not mean I am right, nor should you or anyone listen to me. I really think what I was trying to say was that sticking it out, is your choice not mine.
I don't think I would be any different actually. Giving up without exhausting all avenues would definitely make me wonder "what if".
I think a lot of you, you know, and I don't want to see you get hurt, but in the same sense, I don't want you to miss out on an oppotunity for true happyness.
AdaGrace
Posted by sunny10 on May 13, 2005, at 10:19:59
In reply to Re: SynnyWho Is That???? » sunny10, posted by AdaGrace on May 13, 2005, at 9:21:11
sometimes I FEEL "sinny"... typo didn't bother me at all !!!
You're in my thoughts and prayers, too, Gracie!!!
Whatever will be will be....except I won't end up murdered!!! Thus the taking action part!!!
Thanks for caring, I know that's why you guys caution me.
If my best interests weren't in your thoughts, you wouldn't reply at all- I know that.
I'm not upset that everyone is cautioning me; I am very comforted to know that there are people out there who care.
I love you guys, too!!!
-sunny10
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 13, 2005, at 16:30:46
In reply to Sunny » 10derHeart, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 10, 2005, at 16:08:26
> You always seem to have a kind word and time for anyone who needs it, no matter what you yourself are going through. And you are the same exact age as I am too!
Actually, that's not true, you have a kind word for everyone but me, you tell me to be nice..
Miss Bossypants! You think you are soooo big.(There do you feel like a big sister now?)
*grin*
Posted by sunny10 on May 17, 2005, at 9:39:49
In reply to Re: Sunny, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 13, 2005, at 16:30:46
more like a fool....
more and more lately...
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 17, 2005, at 14:43:19
In reply to Re: » Gabbi-x-2, posted by sunny10 on May 17, 2005, at 9:39:49
> more like a fool....
>
> more and more lately...Ummm....
You wanna talk about that a bit? Sounds like it might do you some good to express yourself.
Lar
Posted by sunny10 on May 17, 2005, at 14:46:21
In reply to Re: » sunny10, posted by Larry Hoover on May 17, 2005, at 14:43:19
Posted by Damos on May 17, 2005, at 17:04:47
In reply to Re:there are no words today, but thanks (nm) » Larry Hoover, posted by sunny10 on May 17, 2005, at 14:46:21
Thought you might need a hug. Was actually wondering how you were doing and hoping things were okay. Anything, anytime - just shout.
XOXOXOXO
Damos
Posted by sunny10 on May 18, 2005, at 9:33:02
In reply to ((((((((((Sunny10)))))))))) » sunny10, posted by Damos on May 17, 2005, at 17:04:47
thanks for the hug.
Everything is the same as last week.
I am just so tired of being locked into a state of waiting.
I have promised to give my SO this time (until June 15th) to gather his own thoughts and not talk about "the future of us", but it is so hard to bite my tongue when he says things that are ambiguous.
He says things like, "we should also check out Texas by the beaches- we don't have to move to Hawaii to live at the beach and have great weather year 'round", to "we should go back to Rehobeth Beach this summer- we really liked it there last year", to "I can only deal with the actual beach for a couple of hours, then I want to show off and take my beautiful woman off the beach to make love and everyone will be jealous", to "it's really great that I can work my schedule around my new rock climbing partner. He has family obligations, but now there's only one family to schedule around instead of two".
Any of those statements could be taken any number of ways, both positive and negative (though the last one can only be positive if it was a test to see if I would react- he needs to feel loved, too) but I can't ask questions- I've been asked to give him time. And since I know that he HAS these anger management issues BECAUSE he's got so much on his mind, it wouldn't help if I bent my own promised boundary.
That's the downside to boundaries.... sometimes they tie your hands. But it is important to me to be a person of my word. How can I expect HIM to keep promises if I can't?!?
So I wait. I wait to see if he is really going to keep his promise of going to the therpaist. If he can go with an open mind, he WILL get help, he WILL get some help in dealing with the fact that he gave up his entire lifestyle of the preceding twelve years. It was his choice to make these changes, (he knows that he has outgrown this lifestyle) but we all know that change is hard- even if we know we need it.
He makes 15 dollars less per hour. He no longer sees the friends that he saw EVERY EVENING. He doesn't "shoot over to Boulder for a concert with his buddies" a couple of times a month, doesn't hang out with buddies to "do recreational drugs". We are talking MAJOR lifestyle changes, here, and he doesn't talk about them with me- probably because he thinks that I will feel either at fault because he moved here "for me" or, at the very least, under pressure to "replace" what he has lost in some way.
But the upshot is that either way, I'm the one that deals with the repercussions of the emotions that bottle up inside of him. I'd prefer to hear him talk and deal with the "feel guilty or not" scenario than get strangled when he's drunk!!!
I'd rather have him talk to a professional to help him deal with it!
So- I made that "time boundary" to make him feel safe and to give myself some time, too. Now I have to deal with not needing as much time as he- but needing answers. Answers that HE can probably not answer, anyway- but the therapist will, as we are seeing the same one for the purpose of turning individual therapy into couples therapy ONLY IF the T determines that my SO is NOT just a manipulator. I have found that I am not a very good judge of character when it comes to my love life. I need to let the professionals make the distinction this time. Because I love my SO, but, other than a rare few, everyone is telling me to drop him like a hot potato. Oh well...time will tell.
I am just hating the waiting. I am as alternately paranoid and loving as I was this time last month...
Waiting, waiting...
Posted by damos on May 19, 2005, at 2:54:35
In reply to Re: ((((((((((Damos)))))))))), posted by sunny10 on May 18, 2005, at 9:33:02
> thanks for the hug.
Hey, it was my pleasure. Sorry it wasn't IRL as you could probably use it by the sound of things.
> Everything is the same as last week.
>
> I am just so tired of being locked into a state of waiting.I'm sorry to hear that, waiting really sux, especially when it feels like your whole life is on hold.
> I have promised to give my SO this time (until June 15th) to gather his own thoughts and not talk about "the future of us", but it is so hard to bite my tongue when he says things that are ambiguous.So what, that'll be around 2 months he's had to get his act together. Even for a bloke you'd think that that'd be long enough. At least it should be long enough for to make a decision not to muck someone else around while you get your act together.
> He says things like, (1)"we should also check out Texas by the beaches- we don't have to move to Hawaii to live at the beach and have great weather year 'round", to (2)"we should go back to Rehobeth Beach this summer- we really liked it there last year", to (3)"I can only deal with the actual beach for a couple of hours, then I want to show off and take my beautiful woman off the beach to make love and everyone will be jealous", to (4)"it's really great that I can work my schedule around my new rock climbing partner. He has family obligations, but now there's only one family to schedule around instead of two".Hmmm, gotta say I don't much like the sound of (3) as it kinda makes it sound as though you're there just to support his self image and ego. The others are kinda confusing too - nothing quite like mixed messages to add insult to injury.
> Any of those statements could be taken any number of ways, both positive and negative (though the last one can only be positive if it was a test to see if I would react- he needs to feel loved, too) but I can't ask questions- I've been asked to give him time. And since I know that he HAS these anger management issues BECAUSE he's got so much on his mind, it wouldn't help if I bent my own promised boundary.
Whoa!!!! Now hang on just a minute. He has anger management issues because he has anger management issues. The stuff that's on his mind only exacerbates and/or triggers the anger off. The way he does or doesn't deal with stuff is separate to the stuff - okay. Please forgive me if I get preachy here, I care is all.
I do think you've got the right to express confusion at the mixed messages, since he's the one bring up plans for the future when 'you're not talking about the future.' And if he's just trying to bait you with some of the comments, well that's just as low act all things considered and you deserve better.
> That's the downside to boundaries.... sometimes they tie your hands. But it is important to me to be a person of my word. How can I expect HIM to keep promises if I can't?!?
>
> So I wait. I wait to see if he is really going to keep his promise of going to the therpaist. If he can go with an open mind, he WILL get help, he WILL get some help in dealing with the fact that he gave up his entire lifestyle of the preceding twelve years. It was his choice to make these changes, (he knows that he has outgrown this lifestyle) but we all know that change is hard- even if we know we need it.Sounds like espoused theory and theory in use to me. I say one thing cause that's what I know people want to hear (espoused theory), but I continue to act in ways that conflict with my words because that's the way I really want to be (theory in use), and everyone should just get used to it. I work with a bunch of them. The longer he puts it off, well you know the answer.
> He makes 15 dollars less per hour. He no longer sees the friends that he saw EVERY EVENING. He doesn't "shoot over to Boulder for a concert with his buddies" a couple of times a month, doesn't hang out with buddies to "do recreational drugs". We are talking MAJOR lifestyle changes, here, and he doesn't talk about them with me- probably because he thinks that I will feel either at fault because he moved here "for me" or, at the very least, under pressure to "replace" what he has lost in some way.He didn't do anything "for you" okay. He did what he wanted to - no-one forced him to. Maybe all he really chose to do was run from one thing he wasn't prepared to deal with into another where all that stuff is creating another situation that he's not really prepared to deal with, other than by using the same broken processes. Don't know, can't judge.
> But the upshot is that either way, I'm the one that deals with the repercussions of the emotions that bottle up inside of him. I'd prefer to hear him talk and deal with the "feel guilty or not" scenario than get strangled when he's drunk!!!Responsibility - the ability to choose your response. Getting drunk and/or violent is irresponsible in the extreme as is prejudging someone elses response to something and then *beating* them up about what you've decided.
> I'd rather have him talk to a professional to help him deal with it!
>
> So- I made that "time boundary" to make him feel safe and to give myself some time, too. Now I have to deal with not needing as much time as he- but needing answers. Answers that HE can probably not answer, anyway- but the therapist will, as we are seeing the same one for the purpose of turning individual therapy into couples therapy ONLY IF the T determines that my SO is NOT just a manipulator. I have found that I am not a very good judge of character when it comes to my love life. I need to let the professionals make the distinction this time. Because I love my SO, but, other than a rare few, everyone is telling me to drop him like a hot potato. Oh well...time will tell.
>
> I am just hating the waiting. I am as alternately paranoid and loving as I was this time last month...
>
> Waiting, waiting...I really feel for you Sunny. It's a lot to carry on your own and still get on with living as best you can. I'm proud and amazed by you, and I'd happily telepathetically transport myself to your couch and wait with you anytime if it helped.
Take care sweet girl. Hoping for good things for you
XOXOXOX
Damos
Posted by sunny10 on May 19, 2005, at 9:57:39
In reply to Re: Waiting, Waiting........ » sunny10, posted by damos on May 19, 2005, at 2:54:35
yes, the mixed messages are the worst part, I think... But then, maybe I overanalyze things...lots of other things were discussed over two nights and a day and a half... these are what stick in my mind. But I know it's a slightly faulty mind, you see!
The Time Will Tell thing you mentioned- "the longer it takes..." well, I have imposed a cut-off time for myself... I told him that, yes, I would wait until he moved into his own place. And that he could make his first appointment right after he moves.
But I DIDN'T tell him that I am only giving him until the 15th to make that appointment. That's my own personal cutoff. If he hasn't made one by then, than he is obviously not as committed to this relationship as I am.
He ALSO doesn't know that I have ordered a hair analysis drug testing kit. He gave me a reason to not trust him when he said that he wasn't doing drugs anymore (then turned out he was- over three months ago, twice), so the only way I will know if I can trust him again is to test his hair. The drinking too much thing started after the drug incidents. Substituting one high for another has occurred to me. So has self-medicating.
He wears it very short (I cut his hair for him with the clippers), so his current hair will show whether or not he has used in the last month or so. He has it continually buzzed, so it will be safe to assume that he doesn't have any hair left that was on his head three months ago when I caught him.
I know this sounds like I should just give up on him- gee, sunny10, sounds like you can't trust him so what are you waiting for? But the truth is that I HAVE been known to be paranoid and disbelieving in the past and proven wrong...If he WAS drinking too much to substitute for the coke, then I am wrong- maybe I haven't heard him sniffing in the bathroom (there's an exhaust fan in there- a really loud one, too) hard to say if I actually hear something or I'm hearing what I think I might hear instead of what is actually there to be heard). I believe my pain at being deceived has caused some paranoia. I have gone looking for proof since finding it those two times and come up with nothing, so there is a chance that I AM paranoid, not just paranoid about being paranoid, if you see what I mean. (What has happened to me? I used to make sense...)
I am hoping that I can prove myself wrong, here, and that I can trust my judgement when it comes to my SO's character. But I DON'T trust my judgement...I don't know whether I'm paranoid but right about his moral character, or if he really can't be trusted and my judgement is impaired. If the test comes out positive, then I can't trust my character judgement and will walk away- straight to the therapist's chair! And if it comes out negative, I will STILL walk to my therapist's chair to discuss paranoia...
I AM thinking about ME and what is in my best interest, don't worry.
Yes, he's got issues- so do I. If I was perfectly well-adjusted, I wouldn't have come looking for support at Babble!!
On the other hand- wouldn't it be so great to not think at all and just give away my cat, sell my belongings and just take a plane to your place after a stop at Susan47's????
Ah, the power of a great daydream...The curse of overdeveloped "fight or flight" instinct.
Only problem with it is that everywhere I go; there I am...
Better learn to stay put and deal with who I am and try to learn to like myself, trust myself, and take care of myself...
From the steps I outlined for you above, I think it's pretty clear that I am at least trying to take care of myself, trust myself, and therefore like myself... What the actual outcome will be? Well, that I don't know yet... The jury is still out on that one!
I'm just doing the best that I can...
((((((Damos))))))
Posted by Damos on May 19, 2005, at 18:21:11
In reply to Re: Waiting, Waiting........ » damos, posted by sunny10 on May 19, 2005, at 9:57:39
Funny isn't it. We can put up with people who are consistantly horrible, mean etc, but the one thing most people find really difficult to deal with is people who are inconsistent in their words and actions, you know they swing between nice one minute and horrible the next.
Ahhh yes, over analysing, now there's a familiar concept - way too familiar. My particular trick was (is) to turn everything someone does back into analysis of what I did to cause them to be tlike that. Just know that your mind will want to really latch onto stuff that fits into existing patterns, and once it;s got those sorted it'll work on trying to squeese the rest into something familiar to - which surprisingly requires a little distorting and reinterpretting of events to make them fit. So don't beat yourself up too much about it. One of the reasons we make consistently bad choices is because it becomes a pattern that we seek because of it's familiarity. Yep, even though it's painfull. Kinda like the self is saying, "I am pain and suffering, so I need to have that to be real."
I'm glad you've set an internal limit to your suffering on this one. Being prepared for the worst isn't giving up - not in any way. It's the self protection people like us need to do sometimes. We shouldn't have to, but we need to. Never having submitted myself to therapy I honestly don't know how I would be in his place. I probably wouldn't go, but I would have told you that straight up. If I really loved you and wanted this to work, I probably would have agreed to go to couples therapy to at least to give it a chance. You would have known I wasn't exactly thrilled about the idea though. I'm nearly 41 and am only just beginning to learn to talk about myself, don't do it much but am getting better. Part of it in my case is thinking that you're so pathetic that no-one would be interested in the first place, and never having been asked as a kid and actively encouraged not to express any sort of feeling or emotion. I think part of my not going is harm minimisation of sorts. It's as though the labels and processes and stuff that are likely to come out of it will just add more grist to the mill by making me believe other things about myself or see myself in more ways that only and to the problems. Not that I think I can fix everything myself or that I don't need it.
The paranoia and trust stuff is tuff, especially if you're carrying past stuff into the present. You can only judge yourself and him by what is happening now. To be trusted you first have to be trustworthy. I couldn't do the drug testing thing, but I'm not in your position and haven't been through what you have in your life and this relationship, and haven't ever been with a drug user. If it's something you feel you need to do and you're internally okay with it and it's ramifications, then do what you need to do. Personally, the fact that I doubted someone that much would be enough. But I aint you, and no matter what I won't think any less of you. Just try to stay in awareness and focused on the moment to stave off the paranoia. If he's in the bathroom, try to focus not on what might or might not be happening in there, but on what you are doing. One of the methods I use when I find myself going of on other mental tracks is to label. It's really silly but it does actually help. For example if my attention is drawn to the sound of a car outside I'll say to myself 'Listening, Listening, Listening' and I'll mentally label every motion for simple things like drinking a cup of coffee, "Reaching, grasping, holding, lifting, sipping, swallowing...." and if I'm eating or drinking or whatever I try to experience it with my whole being. It's really hard at times but I know the way I am with people is much better now as I try to be completely there, not physically there and mentally and emotionally somewhere else. Loving and past hurts automatically mean our judgement is impaired, so agsin don't beat yourself up too much. We want to believe what we want to believe, regardless whether it's good or bad for us in the long run. I still don't believe that M******* is a bad person, I still love her very much 22 years on. But she is trouble, danger, hurt and pain for me and I had to let it go. It took a long, long time to accept it no matter how much I wanted the truth to be different I couldn't make it so. The worst part is I always knew it deep down inside but did everything I could to deny and distort it. Last nights episode of lost brought it back to me when Boon had the experience of imagining his sister dead and Lock asked how he felt, he said relieved. Sadly that's how I feel now that M and I hadly talk or anything - relieved. G*d I hate admitting that, it really hurts. BTW M was also one for never admitting that she'd ever done anything that hurt anyone and constantly making dreams for the next big thing - stilll is by all accounts - her son and I are still pretty close. Sad to think he considers me the only stable male figure in his life.
BTW, I don't honestly think there is such a thing as perfectly well-adjusted. I think it's a myth, and like they say faulty foundations make for unsound buildings. And most of foundations due to parental and other influences as we were growing up seems to have undermined many of our foundations. But like with old building you can shore 'em up and re-stump them or put in new piers. It's a lot of work but it can be done.
Yeh, it would be nice to have a visitor, my housemate would go apoplectic but what else is new. Funny, I have the same problem about being everywhere I go - what's with that???
Sounds like we're running parallel programs Sunny. but I think you're being way braver than me.
Just hoping good things come your way. My thoughts, hopes and wishes are with you.
(((((Sunny10)))))
Posted by sunny10 on May 20, 2005, at 13:37:08
In reply to Re: Waiting, Waiting........ » sunny10, posted by Damos on May 19, 2005, at 18:21:11
Brave is not a word that applies here...
stupid might
self-protective might
optimistic might
pessimistic might
analytical might
paranoid might
emotional might
loving might
non-loving mightbut brave doesn't apply...
It MIGHT apply on June 15th... if I have to end the relationship.
You mentioned that therapy wouldn't be an option for you. Would you please read my last post to Dinah about men and respond to it? I'm asking because you mention not being comfortable about feelings and I really want your biased response. Funny favor to ask, isn't it? A biased response?
Yes, last pattern stuff and familiarity sound so much like me, too, that it's scary. I don't WANT to be that person. And I especially don't want to attract the "same" lover over and over. And, yes, I am concerned about having done that with my SO which is why I am trying to "answer to" my paranoia. But I will try the "do anything I can to "not listen". Although I think it's important to me that you understand that I ordered the drug test kit because he deceived me in the past about his use. It is the only thing that I know he lied to me about.
Chemical abusers get out of control and have physically harmed me- and have harmed millions of other people in the world! AND how do you build a future with someone who may overdose the next time they decide to "let go"? They continue to take that chance because "that would never happen to me" is their mantra!
I would like, more than anything, to be wrong. To have that test come back negative. Being able to trust again would be much easier. Because he will have proven himself trustworthy. I will know that I can trust his word- and I don't know that right now. Especially ever since the strangling episode. Experiencing that forced me to "do I really know this person" mode. It forced me to find out whether he needs to deal with his issues to go back to the man I used to know, or if I was always wrong about him. It became imperative to my physical wellbeing as well as my happiness.
Maybe I want to believe desperately in our love. Yes, yes I DO want to believe in our love. But I don't have a great track record of dealing with these things on an emotional level. So this time I am going with the intellectual and logical level.
I got the impression that you feel the drug testing is an invasion of my SO's privacy. If I am projecting here, forgive me, but I must answer this as well.
Committing to a relationship with me in which there would be no drug use takes away the privacy issue. He may not "privately" indulge because he promised me that he wouldn't. And I caught him deceiving me in the past, after which he reiterated that promise to not do anymore drugs. And I asked him if he is doing drugs again now that we do not live together and he said no. I am less testing his drug use than I am testing whether or not he is being truthful.
When I give my word and break it, I expect to need to prove my innocence next time. It is part of making amends to the person I've injured.
-sunny10
Posted by Damos on May 22, 2005, at 17:50:22
In reply to Re: long........ » Damos, posted by sunny10 on May 20, 2005, at 13:37:08
Hey Sunny10,
Sorry to be so long replying - no access to the net over the weekend.
It's always brave to stand and fight for what you believe in - no matter the outcome.
This is a hard one. firstly I have to say to say that in the last 2 & a bit years I've got much better at talking about feelings & stuff, but I 've still got a long way to go. The important thing was accepting that not doing so had done a lot of damage over the years and not only to me.
Thinking about it, what I do with my energetic healer is therapy of sorts. She helps me to speak about stuff and recognise things and work to undo and build anew where required. The funny thing is I chose her totally by intuition and the being able to talk to her is all about trust and faith and not feeling like I'm being classified as this or that and worked accordingly. It's just like 2 people talking. The other one I saw was too and she helped a lot with some relationship stuff. I also have to be honest at this point and say that nothing I have seen IRL or here really fills me with confidence about the value of 'therapy'. I think a while back I said my GP & the P-doc I saw agreed that I would get no value out of therapy until I decided I'd get value out of it. To say I would never go is too strong, because I sense a day not too far off when I will.
Sorry, back to what you were saying to Dinah. Yes I think scripting plays a huge part, and it's really hard to want someone to be different after 25 years. I don't honestly believe that changing our behaviour will fundamentally change the other person, it may provide the opportunity for them to act and respond differently, but who they are doesn't change. In my own case, my housemate comes at me with the same stuff over and over and over and gets the same response over and over and over - but never tries any other way, even though my response is "you know I don't respond well to that." Go figure. A different tack or approach surely can't hurt. I'm not getting at what I'm trying to say - it's a face-to-face conversation not a written response thing. Sorry. But I do kind of agree with what you said to Dinah we can get stuck in ruts in the ways we speak and interact with each other and it happens across the specturm of human interractions. Damn it, I'll go back and print it off and try and give you a better answer.
Sunny, hope you didn't get the wrong message about the testing kit thing. What I was trying to say was that I probably wouldn't have done it because of how it would make me feel about me and how I'd got to this point. He gave up his right to privacy a) when he repeated lied & used b) when he hurt you phyically. Your self protection comes first, last and always. As I said before I've never been in you shoes and don't know how I'd be in your place so I'm not judging you in any way. You do what you feel you need to okay. In his place I probably would have submitted to the tests because proving myself to you and regaining your trust would have been so important.
I can only imagine what it's like to be loved so much and by someone who is willing to do so much to make things work. I hope he knows how lucky he is - I really do.
Damos
Posted by Damos on May 23, 2005, at 2:11:23
In reply to Re: long........ » sunny10, posted by Damos on May 22, 2005, at 17:50:22
Hi Sunny,
Let's try again. Having re-read your note a few times now and thought about me and my situations, I have to agree in general with what you said. Also have to say I might go out and buy the book too - can't hurt surely.
I have definitely found that as I have worked on me and how I relate to others, the way they relate to me has changed too. But my proviso - and it's a big one, is that in a 'relationship' both parties have to want to genuinely move things forward. You need to be prepared for the other person to be playing along hoping you'll "snap out of it" soon. You know, the "I'll just humour them for a bit" thing. Personally the relationships I've created in the last couple of years since I've really started to work on me in a conscious way have been significantly better and the old patterns seem to be starting to fall away - slowly. Still there but I can see them now before I stumble into them. The hard part is to change in ways that are true to who you are and how you want to be and that don't compromise you or manipulate the other person in anyway. The biggest problem comes when the other person doesn't want to and sees no reason to change. You know, "this is who I am and if you've got a problem with it then that's your problem." Or they believe that talking the talk is enough. All we can do is provide the opportunity for change within the relationship and take the responsibility for changing ourselves in ways we believe are necessary. I can say that my relationship with my housemate is shot to h*ll and has no hope of redemption for all sorts of reasons, part of which is my growing as a person and them not wanting me to.
As a bloke I can honestly say that the term "emotional intimacy" doesn't mean a lot to me, so there's not much point expecting it or asking for it, and that's really only because it's not something boys/men are brought up doing. Because of this sometimes it's not that we don't want to be "x" we just don't understand what the h*ll "x" is in the language of our experience, and sometimes you're just too damn subtle for us. Like anything, learning to talk about ourselves and our feelings is a steep learning curve and not a comfortable one because we feel clumsy and awkward and incredibly at risk doing it. Not having the words to explain the things doesn't help either and this is not uncommon because we're not used to using that language. That's why I struggle here sometimes and don't respond to threads I want to - I just don't have the words to communicate what's inside. I think if you are in an honest relationship with what Stephen Covey would call and good balance in your "emotional bank account" it could work and work well. If however, you're in a relationship where one party is well and truly overdrawn on the account and there is low - no trust there is a problem, as there is if the other person doesn't acknowledge with genuineness and sincerity that there even is a problem. I think I said it before it's not only that the person knows that what they're doing will hurt you, but that knowing this they still did it anyway, i.e. didn't care enough not to. This doesn't even cover knew it, did it, lied about it, and aren't really sorry for anything other than the disruption to normal programming.
Like you I am giulty of letting people walk all over me for way too long and it's hard to unlearn that. People who we've allowed to do it also tend not to take us seriously when we do either. But we have to try to be what we want to be and have the relationships we want to have and people have to be willing to grow with us or go cause we don't choose to be that person anymore.
My newest friends are ones that I am growing with some I've whom I 've 'known' for a long time but am actually just really getting to know.
We can but try.
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