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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Susan J on April 26, 2004, at 13:34:34
Hiya, everyone.
Was over my parents' briefly this weekend. I was eating an apple, and asked my mother if I was supposed to give the core of the apple to her dog, she said yes. (The dog was begging HUGE). I walked over to him and called out to my mother, "Does he get the whole core?" She said yes.
So I gave him the whole core. Well, that wasn't the right thing to do, Mom usually gives him the core cut up in pieces. I know my question wasn't clear enough. But she started yelling at me because the dog carried it over to the living room rug and proceeded to eat it, dropping bits of apple on the rug. This drove my mother nuts and she was yelling at me, saying I was stupid that I should have known to cut up the core. The dog is 110 pounds, I didn't think a whole apple core would hurt him. She was so upset, she was almost crying, wailing "Oh, SUSAN!"
Anyway, I told her I understood she was upset, that I was sorry, that I'd clean up any mess the dog left on the rug, and I asked her to please not yell at me. She went off on that, almost in a hysterical tone of voice, "I don't have the right to express frustration in MY OWN HOUSE?"
I told her she had every right to express frustration in her own house, that I understood *why* she was upset, but please don't yell at me. Then she said, which is was she ALWAYS says, that I'm just TOO SENSITIVE.
I KNOW I'm very sensitive, so I have doubts about whether it was OK to stand up for myself, which is how I saw it. And her yelling at me puts me in a bad mood for a few hours, at least, after she does it. And she got upset with me again for being in a lousy mood.
I've asked my therapist this same thing before. Does my mother have a right to yell AT me? I'm 37. Was I disrespecting her by asking her not to yell at me? She kept repeating that it was her house. To me, I was only trying to get minimal respect for myself, I wasn't trying to minimize how upset she was.
Am I too sensitive? Was it OK to ask her to not yell at me? There was no doubt she wasn't just mad at the situation, she was mad at *me.*
?
Thanks for any input you have.
Doubting, Low-Self-Esteem Susan
Posted by coral on April 26, 2004, at 13:52:11
In reply to Mother Question - Was I Right or Was I Wrong?, posted by Susan J on April 26, 2004, at 13:34:34
Dear Susan,
Would she have yelled at any other adult (non-family?)
Some people think that it's okay to not maintain manners when speaking with family members. Personally, I hold just the opposite view. I attempt to treat the people I love as best as I possibly can. In the heat of an argument, tempers and voices do rise, but over an apple core? Are there other frustrations she's not expressing that are coming out in this incident?
Barring other major frustrations in the family (illness, grief, financial, etc.,)I would consider someone yelling at me inappropriate and even more inappropriate, not realizing the error.
Coral
Posted by Penny on April 26, 2004, at 14:03:00
In reply to Mother Question - Was I Right or Was I Wrong?, posted by Susan J on April 26, 2004, at 13:34:34
You ABSOLUTELY have the right to stand up for yourself, regardless of WHOSE house you are in. You are NOT 10 years old anymore - you are an adult, and you don't have to take that kind of verbal abuse, which, Susan, is what that is. I know b/c my dad does the same thing.
My recommendation? Next time, if that happens again, leave. Just walk out. Because it's unacceptable behavior on her part. Yes, she has a right as a human being to express her frustration, whether in her house or not. But she does NOT have a right to belittle you (saying you were stupid, etc.).
Repeat after me: My mother does NOT have a right to belittle me in any way. I am NOT a child anymore! I don't have to take this anymore!
I have what I call my "24-hour-rule" with my father, Susan. The first 24 hours I spend with him (after not seeing him for a long while) is like the "honeymoon phase", meaning he refrains from hurtful remarks. However, as soon as that first 24 hours has passed, my father seems to change into another person - he feels a need to berate and belittle me. Well, after an argument a few years ago that left me feeling hurt and angry, I decided that I can't spend more than 24 hours at a time with my father. Which means I don't visit my parents, except for day trips. Fortunately, I don't live near them, so I have plenty of excuses for not visiting. But I talk to them on the phone.
I'm sorry you had to deal with this. I can totally relate - I've been told I'm "too sensitive" more times than I can count. Crying or feeling hurt when I was yelled at by my parents was unacceptable.
Anyway - as an adult, Susan, you certainly have the right to ask your mother to not yell at you. It is a matter of respect. If you show your mother respect, she should show you respect in return. If she refuses, you don't have to put up with that. You can tell her matter-of-factly, in a respectful way, that you feel she is disrespecting you by speaking to you in that manner and that she can express her frustration without yelling, or you will leave. And then follow through.
But don't allow your mom to continue treating you like a child (not that parents should speak to their children that way, regardless of their ages).
P
Posted by Susan J on April 26, 2004, at 14:27:04
In reply to Re: Mother Question - Was I Right or Was I Wrong?, posted by coral on April 26, 2004, at 13:52:11
>
> Would she have yelled at any other adult (non-family?)
<<Nope, I was thinking of that, too. She would always maintain appearances in front of friends or guests, regardless of how miserable she was.> Barring other major frustrations in the family (illness, grief, financial, etc.,)I would consider someone yelling at me inappropriate and even more inappropriate, not realizing the error.
<<That's the main problem, I think. She's miserable. She's inherited a dog from my brother and she just HATES dogs, but she thinks it's cruel to find the dog another home. I know it's painful to do so, but I told her the pain of that is less than dealing with the frustration and misery every day. I even volunteer with a pet rescue, so I know how to find the dog a good loving home....I can't help get rid of my mother's misery, but I'm glad to know you guys think it's OK to stand up for myself. I did it as politely as I could.
Thanks!
>
> Coral
Posted by Susan J on April 26, 2004, at 14:31:05
In reply to Re: Mother Question - Was I Right or Was I Wrong? » Susan J, posted by Penny on April 26, 2004, at 14:03:00
>>you don't have to take that kind of verbal abuse, which, Susan, is what that is. I know b/c my dad does the same thing.
>>Yeah, I kind of think it *is* verbal/emotional abuse, but god if I said that to her, she'd FLIP OUT!I mean, in my romantic relationships, or relationships with friends, I *never* yell and don't tolerate others yelling at me. I'll discuss stuff until I'm blue in the face, but the moment someone raises their voice and/or belittles me, that's it. I totally shut down and I'm no good.
> My recommendation? Next time, if that happens again, leave. Just walk out.
>>Almost got to that point, but fortunately she said she was sorry. I don't think she *felt* sorry, was just saying it to stop the argument, but I let it rest. I just kept sitting there wondering what was more important, a fricking (cleanable) rug or a relationship?Thanks for the support. :-) I live near my parents and see them often, or I would adopt some coping strategies like yours. Most of the time, it's OK with my mother. Just sometimes things get weird. And more hurtful than she understands.
Posted by TexasChic on April 26, 2004, at 14:37:34
In reply to Mother Question - Was I Right or Was I Wrong?, posted by Susan J on April 26, 2004, at 13:34:34
You ALWAYS have the right to stand up for yourself. I've had the same situation with my mother, and I know it's very very hard. The whole guilt trip thing when you do stand up to her is manipulation pure and simple. The thing is, you feel guilty because you're 'supposed' to respect you parents. But parents are people too, and they CAN be wrong sometimes. If anyone ever treats you in a way you don't feel is right, there is no reason you can't address it. If they have a problem with it, it's THEIR problem not yours. I would suggest talking to your mom when she is in a pretty good mood, and tell her you don't deserve to be treated with disrespect no matter what the circumstances. Then map out some ways that she can express her feelings that are acceptable to you. Tell her if she continues with the yelling and doesn't at least try this, you will have to leave. Then you'll probably have to leave a half a dozen times before she stops freaking out about it. But if she's not too unreasonable and she really wants too see you, she just might come around. Anyway, that's my two cents.
Posted by Susan J on April 26, 2004, at 14:43:02
In reply to Re: Mother Question - Was I Right or Was I Wrong?, posted by TexasChic on April 26, 2004, at 14:37:34
I know! It's like it's inherently disrespectful to my mother to call her on that type of behavior. Totally makes me feel like a child again. Only she can do that. Really bothersome.
She was really upset that I said something, too, which didn't make it any easier. But it's really not worth it. I've learned to be angry, enraged even, at a situation and NOT at a person.....she can, too, I think.
Thanks.
Funny how so many of us on this board have a similar type of problem......
Posted by Dinah on April 26, 2004, at 17:19:47
In reply to Mother Question - Was I Right or Was I Wrong?, posted by Susan J on April 26, 2004, at 13:34:34
My father yells. My mother yells a bit. They yell a *lot* at each other, and at my brother. When they start yelling, I leave. I don't argue, or discuss the matter. They like to yell, I don't like to be around yelling. They are free to yell to their hearts content. I am free to remove myself from the environment.
I wish I could work out such a reasonable solution to my other problems with them. :)
Posted by noa on April 26, 2004, at 18:20:05
In reply to Mother Question - Was I Right or Was I Wrong?, posted by Susan J on April 26, 2004, at 13:34:34
When it comes to stuff like this, I'm a bit of a pessimist---I've learned you can't teach an old dog new tricks (pun certainly very welcome but not premeditated, I promise!).
Here you are trying over and over again to deal with her rationally and civilly but you can't win.
Either, she is going to always be like this. OR, at the very least, she wasn't going to get rational any time quick, so as admirable as your valiant attempts at reasoning and civil discussion with her, maybe it would be best to just walk away, cuz nothing was going to work.
How easy it is for me to say this to you--haha--cuz in this case, it's not MY mother. With my own mother, I am not so sane!!
There is the saying, "if it's not one thing, it's your mother".
Sorry you have to deal with this. To sum up...NO, you don't deserve to be yelled at.
Posted by noa on April 26, 2004, at 18:28:38
In reply to Re: Mother Question - Was I Right or Was I Wrong? » coral, posted by Susan J on April 26, 2004, at 14:27:04
>>That's the main problem, I think. She's miserable. She's inherited a dog from my brother and she just HATES dogs, but she thinks it's cruel to find the dog another home. I know it's painful to do so, but I told her the pain of that is less than dealing with the frustration and misery every day. I even volunteer with a pet rescue, so I know how to find the dog a good loving home....
OK, so she gets herself into rather impossible situations--very self-defeating, setting herself up with this dog (even though you can find a more than suitable home, like you offered), perhaps she's even got a touch of martyrdom there maybe? Or maybe--is this the brother whose marriage just broke up rather traumatically? Maybe she holds on to the dog hoping that the marriage will be repaired and things will go back to "normal" (if there ever was a 'normal')?
And then in the interaction you describe, she was making it impossible for you to resolve the tension that occurred there between you.
ARGGGHHH. The kind of thing that drives me nuts.
And let me repeat--you don't deserve to be yelled at, even by your mother.
Posted by Pathur on April 26, 2004, at 20:43:25
In reply to Mother Question - Was I Right or Was I Wrong?, posted by Susan J on April 26, 2004, at 13:34:34
Hi Susan J,
If I may be so bold I would like to reccommend a book that I am in the midst of reading. I heard about it on the radio and the title " You are what You say, the proven program that uses the power of language to combat sress, anger, and depression " by Matthew Budd,M.D. and Larry Rothstein,Ed.D. sounded intriguing, ( I missed the actual interview ) so I ordered the book online. Over the past year I've been working on some personal relationship issues and have read a varitey of books, but this book by far has made the most sense, its has a workbook element to it which I have not started but the substance has to do with the very situation you have described. I'm not a star at book reports so I am posting the Amazon Link, and a Google search brings up other interesting links. I can't reccommend this book enough.http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812929624/drbobsvirte00-20
Posted by gardenergirl on April 27, 2004, at 1:27:50
In reply to Mother Question - Was I Right or Was I Wrong?, posted by Susan J on April 26, 2004, at 13:34:34
Sorry for the brevity of my answer, but you had every right to ask her not to yell at her, regardless of where you were. It sounds like you did everything within your power to diffuse the situation, so her yelling and getting upset about your request is her stuff.
((((((SusanJ)))))) Special fondness as we are the same age...
gg
Posted by Susan J on April 27, 2004, at 8:55:09
In reply to Mother Question - Was I Right or Was I Wrong?, posted by Susan J on April 26, 2004, at 13:34:34
Thanks, guys. Yes, my mother takes on way more than she can handle, she *is* a bit of a martyr, and she's 63, so I doubt there's much chance of changing now, I think she's most comfortable with how life is for her right now, even though *I* can see she's miserable.
I hope it doesn't end up with my walking out of the house, although I almost did that.
It'll never be a good relationship, I just want it to be a neutral, unharmful one.
Thanks again. :-)
Susan
Posted by TexasChic on April 27, 2004, at 10:56:42
In reply to Re: Mother Question - Was I Right or Was I Wrong?, posted by Susan J on April 27, 2004, at 8:55:09
My Mom is totally a martyr and I'm quite certain she has a personality disorder. The thing is I've been living with mine for the last couple of years! But I am moving out within the next couple of weeks after a long battle of her sabatoging my every effort (in moving and in trying to improve my mental health). I'm broke and I don't care. I just know I'm getting out! Yea!
Posted by Susan J on April 27, 2004, at 11:14:47
In reply to Re: Mother Question - Was I Right or Was I Wrong?, posted by TexasChic on April 27, 2004, at 10:56:42
You go! Sometimes being broke is worth it to get away from stuff that's not helpful (to say the least). :-)
> My Mom is totally a martyr and I'm quite certain she has a personality disorder. The thing is I've been living with mine for the last couple of years! But I am moving out within the next couple of weeks after a long battle of her sabatoging my every effort (in moving and in trying to improve my mental health). I'm broke and I don't care. I just know I'm getting out! Yea!
Posted by Emme on April 29, 2004, at 21:47:11
In reply to Mother Question - Was I Right or Was I Wrong?, posted by Susan J on April 26, 2004, at 13:34:34
Hey Susan,
A few quick words before I conk out tonight. I haven't read the other posts in this thread, but my therapist and I have discussed something sort of similar. My therapist's suggestion was that if I was accused of being too sensitive or thin-skinned, that I should say something generally to the effect of "I may be sensitive, Mom, but if you know that, why would you choose to say something that you know will distress me?"
Now you don't sound unreasonably sensitive to me. But I think the point is that it doesn't matter if you are "oversensitive" or not (which is kind of a subjective thing anyway). The point is that she should make a good faith effort to not behave in a way that she knows will be upsetting to you. Especially if it's something like yelling, which *nobody* enjoys. After all, you showed a lot of consideration and tact in responding to *her*.
Let's see...another way of thinking about it....would she think it was okay to yell at dinner guests? Probably not. As family, then, you ought to get at least that much consideration. Sure, people lose their tempers and yell, but the graceful thing to do is apologize for it.
Don't doubt yourself. I'd give you an A+ in tactful "mother management" and for calmly stating your needs. You ready to take on the Middle East yet? :)
I hope you're feeling less stressed.
Emme
> Hiya, everyone.
>
> Was over my parents' briefly this weekend. I was eating an apple, and asked my mother if I was supposed to give the core of the apple to her dog, she said yes. (The dog was begging HUGE). I walked over to him and called out to my mother, "Does he get the whole core?" She said yes.
>
> So I gave him the whole core. Well, that wasn't the right thing to do, Mom usually gives him the core cut up in pieces. I know my question wasn't clear enough. But she started yelling at me because the dog carried it over to the living room rug and proceeded to eat it, dropping bits of apple on the rug. This drove my mother nuts and she was yelling at me, saying I was stupid that I should have known to cut up the core. The dog is 110 pounds, I didn't think a whole apple core would hurt him. She was so upset, she was almost crying, wailing "Oh, SUSAN!"
>
> Anyway, I told her I understood she was upset, that I was sorry, that I'd clean up any mess the dog left on the rug, and I asked her to please not yell at me. She went off on that, almost in a hysterical tone of voice, "I don't have the right to express frustration in MY OWN HOUSE?"
>
> I told her she had every right to express frustration in her own house, that I understood *why* she was upset, but please don't yell at me. Then she said, which is was she ALWAYS says, that I'm just TOO SENSITIVE.
>
> I KNOW I'm very sensitive, so I have doubts about whether it was OK to stand up for myself, which is how I saw it. And her yelling at me puts me in a bad mood for a few hours, at least, after she does it. And she got upset with me again for being in a lousy mood.
>
> I've asked my therapist this same thing before. Does my mother have a right to yell AT me? I'm 37. Was I disrespecting her by asking her not to yell at me? She kept repeating that it was her house. To me, I was only trying to get minimal respect for myself, I wasn't trying to minimize how upset she was.
>
> Am I too sensitive? Was it OK to ask her to not yell at me? There was no doubt she wasn't just mad at the situation, she was mad at *me.*
>
> ?
>
> Thanks for any input you have.
>
> Doubting, Low-Self-Esteem Susan
Posted by Escher Dementian on April 30, 2004, at 3:36:00
In reply to Re: Mother Question - Was I Right or Was I Wrong? » Susan J, posted by Emme on April 29, 2004, at 21:47:11
Just a note before i conk out, too...
Emme, i SO wholeheartedly applaud your post. All of it.
Infact, i was so relieved and cheered by SO MANY of the above posts regarding this kind of issue (near and dear to me, too~ a lifelong work just to get through it with my own mother also,-and worse) that my printer will need a cool down period after printing the advice posts. i plan to read a few of them every time i have to deal with my mother.Susan J , i SO feel for you in same-boat relativity. Hang in there, you are quite obviously the improvement on the theme~ or bloodline, if you'll forgive my putting it that way. i have a left-banked take on your "sensitivity", your virtue of kindness, and obvious intelligence:
It has come to a Great Strong Spirit such as yourself to be able to bear the pain of the 'sensitivity' in order to change the chain of inheritance of this kind of treatment of daughters. That the 'sensitivity' you bear is a choice to remain informed... that you might hone your drive and gift to all other human beings (and animals, i gather!) by finding Another Better Way to treat others. Notice that you were careful, and even took in feeling persecuted without returning the pain to her. i believe it is people who come into this world like yourself who bring 'the healing' to our bloodlines. Simply by Who you choose to become, given painful treatment. Who but You has been strong enough to remain vulnerable and therefore gentle? Respectful? It's called a virtue, and virtue is always a choice born of and bearing hard work. And by your own existing it, now it exists in the world for the rest of us.
It's just a soul-hunch.And i include this site, with Penny and Dinah, and gg, and noa....etc. in my own Gratitudes before i fall asleep tonight.
Just Thanx',
&Sweet Dreams,
Escher
Posted by Susan J on May 3, 2004, at 9:37:40
In reply to Re: Mother Question - Was I Right or Was I Wrong? » Susan J, posted by Emme on April 29, 2004, at 21:47:11
> "I may be sensitive, Mom, but if you know that, why would you choose to say something that you know will distress me?"
<<I've never thought of it that way before, if it comes up again, I'll try it. :-) Thanks!
> Especially if it's something like yelling, which *nobody* enjoys.
<<I don't like yelling, period, but I could handle it if it hadn't been directly *at* me. You know? I've always made a point of being mad at the situation, *not* the person. Well, I might *hate* the person but I'd never address the problem that way....that make any sense? And I wish my mother could do the same. She had every right to be stressed out over the dog making a mess on her carpet....I just don't wanna be called stupid for it.
Thanks again, hope everything is going well with you. I havent' had much time to look at these boards recently.......take care,Susan
Posted by Susan J on May 3, 2004, at 9:40:59
In reply to Re: Mother Question - Was I Right or Was I Wrong?, posted by Escher Dementian on April 30, 2004, at 3:36:00
>> "sensitivity", your virtue of kindness, and obvious intelligence:
<<Wow! Thanks for all the compliments! Don't know if I deserve them, but they made me smile nonetheless! :-)
>> Notice that you were careful, and even took in feeling persecuted without returning the pain to her.
<<Thank you. Anything I did right didn't come naturally, it was therapy and cool and thoughtful ideas from people here on the boards. This place really can be a lifesaver. Without a doubt a place that helps enhance the *quality* of life...You really made my day. Thanks again, and take care,
Susan
Posted by Emme on May 4, 2004, at 21:07:38
In reply to Emme, I really like that! » Emme, posted by Susan J on May 3, 2004, at 9:37:40
> > "I may be sensitive, Mom, but if you know that, why would you choose to say something that you know will distress me?"
> <<I've never thought of it that way before, if it comes up again, I'll try it. :-) Thanks!My therapist is sharp - she comes up with some great scripts! :)
> <<I don't like yelling, period, but I could handle it if it hadn't been directly *at* me. You know? I've always made a point of being mad at the situation, *not* the person. Well, I might *hate* the person but I'd never address the problem that way....that make any sense?Yeah, that makes sense. I tend to find angry outbursts distressing no matter who they're aimed at, but it's definitely worse when it's directed right at you.
> And I wish my mother could do the same. She had every right to be stressed out over the dog making a mess on her carpet....I just don't wanna be called stupid for it.
Amen. I hope by now it's blown over a bit. When this sort of thing happens, does it make you really apprehensive about your next visit? Ya know, if everybody were sensitive as you are, the world would be a heck of a lot more peaceful. I hope you realize what a good quality you have.
> Thanks again, hope everything is going well with you. I havent' had much time to look at these boards recently.......take care,I haven't posted much for quite a while. My amygdala is running amok and I'm megastressed about life, the universe, and everything. I sleep erratically. I feel perpetually panicked. I had four interviews this month and I didn't perform very well at them. I gotta get my head together and get a job and a life. Ack.
But other than that I'm doing okay. ;) Is work still a bear for you?
Emme
Posted by Susan J on May 5, 2004, at 8:28:36
In reply to Re: Emme, I really like that! » Susan J, posted by Emme on May 4, 2004, at 21:07:38
>>When this sort of thing happens, does it make you really apprehensive about your next visit?
<<Totally. And I haven't felt that way in a while; makes me feel like a teenager again. NOT a good feeling.>>My amygdala is running amok and I'm megastressed about life, the universe, and everything. I sleep erratically. I feel perpetually panicked. I had four interviews this month and I didn't perform very well at them. I gotta get my head together and get a job and a life. Ack.
<<God, I feel for you. I'm kind of in the same boat. Work has now slowed down tremendously, like I'm not working at all. Which sounds good, but now I have to *face* my real life, and I screwed myself up bad financially over the past 6 months. I get panic attacks just *thinking* about paying bills. Which is pathetic, because if I just managed my money (budget and all), I'd be fine, but it's like I can't even face the thought of it. How wacked is that? My sleep is messed up, and I've got high blood pressure problems for the first time in my life.I wish I had some good advice for ya, other than hang in there. But I can't even fix it for myself. I'll just give you big hugs....
((Emme))
Thinking of you,
Susan
Posted by Emme on May 6, 2004, at 15:40:42
In reply to Life in General » Emme, posted by Susan J on May 5, 2004, at 8:28:36
Hi Susan,
> >>When this sort of thing happens, does it make you really apprehensive about your next visit?
> <<Totally. And I haven't felt that way in a while; makes me feel like a teenager again. NOT a good feeling.I agree. Hey, it's time for Mother's Day this weekend. I'm a bit nervous about going. She's been convinced for 12 years that I have an eating disorder - which I don't - and makes comments every time I see her. She will also continue to pressure me to move in with her. This would be the most practical thing while I'm out of work. But as my pdoc said, my cortisol levels would probably go up. :) On the plus side, she tends to send me back from visits with boxes of Kleenex and 12-packs of toilet paper and boxes of Pepperidge Farm cookies. The toilet paper fixation makes me laugh, but hey, I'm happy to take them!
> <<God, I feel for you. I'm kind of in the same boat. Work has now slowed down tremendously, like I'm not working at all. Which sounds good, but now I have to *face* my real life, and I screwed myself up bad financially over the past 6 months. I get panic attacks just *thinking* about paying bills. Which is pathetic, because if I just managed my money (budget and all), I'd be fine, but it's like I can't even face the thought of it. How wacked is that? My sleep is messed up, and I've got high blood pressure problems for the first time in my life.
Gawd, I feel for you too. I understand the "too panicked to deal" feeling. It sounds like you've got a bit of the "prairie dog syndrome". Things have simmered down enough in one part of your life to allow you to poke your head above ground and have a look around and.....whoa nellie! Freak out time!
I'm sorry to hear you've developed blood pressure problems. I hope it's temporary. Are you getting enough help from your pdoc and/or therapist to aggressively control your anxiety? It really sounds like you're overloaded on worry.
You're in the DC area, right? Time for a stress-releasing trip to the National Zoo? Wish I were close enough to go - I haven't been there in years.
> I wish I had some good advice for ya, other than hang in there. But I can't even fix it for myself. I'll just give you big hugs...
Thanks. :) Megahugs for you too. (((Susan)))
Emme
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