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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by mair on November 19, 2001, at 12:03:36
In reply to Re: Primal Screem therapy » paxvox, posted by Kristi on November 19, 2001, at 10:00:12
> My current therapist I think subscribes to the theory that anger and depression are related. She thinks my depressive responsives are frequently adaptations to avoid expressing anger. Ultimately anger does get turned inward either because I find a way to blame myself or because I fault myself for not dealing with the anger and allowing the depressive response. Either was I can't win.
I had a psychiatrist years ago who thought I ought to invest in a whole bunch of very cheap dishes which I could throw against my basement wall to diffuse my anger. The whole idea was just too strange for me to take it seriously.
Mair
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Posted by mist on November 19, 2001, at 13:02:39
In reply to Whatever happened to anger turned inward?, posted by mist on November 19, 2001, at 0:38:49
One of the reasons I asked the question was that since use of anti-depressants became more widespread I hear much less discussion about emotions in relation to depression. Chemical and cognitive approaches seem the most common.
I don't find cognitive techniques helpful (at least not methodical ones as in the book Feeling Good). Just because I change the words I'm thinking doesn't change my feeling about something.
While I hope to find a medication that will help alleviate my depression, I don't want to overlook the role that emotions and how one handles or processes them play in the condition.
For me, depression often follows from a sense of powerlessness in a situation. I'm not sure if it's the hopelessness or the possible unexpressed anger about it that's the problem.
I'm not sure how "turning anger inward" works, either. What actually goes on when someone does that and why does it lead to depression? Is depression a way of just shutting everything down so nothing happens?
I have also heard that anxiety can be a sign of unexpressed anger.
Posted by sar on November 19, 2001, at 13:51:52
In reply to Re: Whatever happened to anger turned inward?, posted by mist on November 19, 2001, at 13:02:39
> I have also heard that anxiety can be a sign of unexpressed anger.a pdoc told me this weekend that anxiety is often the result of fear of losing control.
i didn't find cognitive approaches much help, either...but here's what that same pdoc told me: change your actions, and your feelings will then change. will different feelings, your thoughts will change.
essentially, Mist Is as Mist Does.
interestingly enough, the Dalai Lama gives pretty much the same formula in his teachings.
i *just* learned about all of this, so i write it only as a bit of news, i'm putting no guarantees on it!
Posted by paula on November 19, 2001, at 16:01:40
In reply to Re: Whatever happened to anger turned inward? » mist, posted by paxvox on November 19, 2001, at 9:25:34
Pax,
Your comment about problem addiction got me to
thinking. You're absolutely right, of course,
that one's gotta recognize a problem before
anything can be done about it. I think part of
it--at least for me--is realizing that the problem
CAN be solved. I always thought that I had a
problem, but it never ever occurred to me (until
very recently) that anything could be done about it
other than pulling myself up by the bootstraps with
brute force.This is rather tangential to the discussion at hand,
but I thought I'd throw it in there anyway.--paula
< snip >
> I guess it's like an addiction; until YOU are ready to face the fact that YOU have a problem, you will never resolve it.
>
> PAX
Posted by mist on November 19, 2001, at 18:01:36
In reply to Re: Whatever happened to anger turned inward? » mist, posted by sar on November 19, 2001, at 13:51:52
> i didn't find cognitive approaches much help, either...but here's what that same pdoc told me: change your actions, and your feelings will then change. will different feelings, your thoughts will change.
>
> essentially, Mist Is as Mist Does.
>
> interestingly enough, the Dalai Lama gives pretty much the same formula in his teachings.
>
> i *just* learned about all of this, so i write it only as a bit of news, i'm putting no guarantees on it!sar, this sounds interesting as an approach to try although I don't entirely understand it. I wonder what type of actions they're referring to? -mist
Posted by mist on November 19, 2001, at 18:22:10
In reply to Whatever happened to anger turned inward?, posted by mist on November 19, 2001, at 0:38:49
The thing that's helped me clear up anger is having heated verbal fights with people I'm angry at. I noticed as a child I felt much better after fighting (not physically--I mean huge, angry arguments) with family members. The problem is, there are social/interpersonal repercussions to doing that in most relationships and situations, so I don't do very often if at all anymore. (Not that I ever did a lot.) The society overall isn't accepting of interpersonal fighting,—it's viewed as destructive and antisocial. If people accepted it more for what it was and didn't read terrible meanings into it I think it would be useful for clearing up backlogged anger. Hitting a pillow and that type of thing doesn't do it for me.
Posted by Mair on November 19, 2001, at 19:43:44
In reply to Re: Whatever happened to anger turned inward? » mist, posted by sar on November 19, 2001, at 13:51:52
>
>" i didn't find cognitive approaches much help, either...but here's what that same pdoc told me: change your actions, and your feelings will then change. will different feelings, your thoughts will change."
>
> My psychiatrist of a few years ago said something which I think is similar. It was something like with people who are depressed, positive actions lead to insight not the reverse. I'm probably not stating this well. I also wish I had questioned him more carefully because I'm not sure I understand it now, but I was much too depressed then to follow up with anything.Mair
Posted by Dinah on November 19, 2001, at 20:21:32
In reply to Re: Whatever happened to anger turned inward? » mist, posted by sar on November 19, 2001, at 13:51:52
> i didn't find cognitive approaches much help, either...but here's what that same pdoc told me: change your actions, and your feelings will then change. will different feelings, your thoughts will change.
>
> essentially, Mist Is as Mist Does.
>
> interestingly enough, the Dalai Lama gives pretty much the same formula in his teachings.
>
> i *just* learned about all of this, so i write it only as a bit of news, i'm putting no guarantees on it!That theory has never held true for me, although I've based a good part of my life on it. That's why I call myself an "as if" person. But hopefully YMMV.
Posted by paxvox on November 19, 2001, at 20:51:08
In reply to Re: Whatever happened to anger turned inward? » paxvox, posted by paula on November 19, 2001, at 16:01:40
Paula, I'm glad you had that epiphany regarding "problems". I really think, that though seemingly obvious, that thought passes many of us by as "too simple". Others would rather wallow in their pain, as it is a "known evil" as opposed to an unknown future if they should try to change their behavior. We have all gone down that road during our lives, I suspect.
For me, I find an area that I can admit I am not where I should be, or want to be, then set goals, albeit sometimes small, toward getting there.
Good luck in your journey,
PAX
Posted by wendy b. on November 19, 2001, at 23:15:22
In reply to discharging anger, posted by mist on November 19, 2001, at 18:22:10
> The thing that's helped me clear up anger is having heated verbal fights with people I'm angry at. I noticed as a child I felt much better after fighting (not physically--I mean huge, angry arguments) with family members.
Yes, I think this is true, a lot of energy gets discharged in a strong verbal fight. Children have fewer inhibitions about letting off steam, and it does feel good, it's a real physical release. To describe the mechanism is tricky: I think the anger, or repressed feelings, or feelings we were never allowed to express, are bottled up, as they say, and then the bottle can't hold any more, and the cork pops off and it all comes shooting out. (sorry to mix the champagne and penile analogies here, but what the hey...) It's a law of physics as well, the body trying to find equilibrium.
>The problem is, there are social/interpersonal repercussions to doing that in most relationships and situations, so I don't do very often if at all anymore.I think as adults, it's obviously less socially acceptable. I can tell you, from being on both sides - the side doing the angry blasting, and the side getting hit with it - that it doesn't accomplish much. As adults, we have to find better ways.
I have recently been yelled at by both my sister and my stepfather, because they were UNABLE to come out with how they really felt about a situation (my parents moving to a smaller house). We're older now, I'm 41, sister's 43, stepfather's 65 - and I'm still getting yelled at... They were over-emotionally reacting to my saying I didn't think my parents were 'ready' to move yet. That's all I said, no accusations, no guilt, no judgement. After 8 years in therapy, I feel myself to be much better at being clear about what I think, what I want, and what I don't want. Without stepping on anyone's feelings, or being 'brutally honest.' I've worked hard at learning how to express myself in a fair way to my family. And I get frustrated that they aren't spending any energy at learning to do the same thing. We'd all get along so much better if others did some work on it besides just me...
>(Not that I ever did a lot.) The society overall isn't accepting of interpersonal fighting,—it's viewed as destructive and antisocial.Most people just can't take being blasted. It's like getting hit broadside with a big piece of sheet-metal. It reverbs... Personally, I have found it instructive to be in group therapy, where if it works, you all have a safe, supportive environment in which to say things you might not feel able to in the 'outside' world. It's a place to practice what to do outside the group, if that makes any sense. This bulletin board helps people do that, and it's why I like it so much. I've only been going to formal group therapy for a couple of months, so I'm no expert. But I do feel a change in myself, that the anger and anxiety have found a better place, or have been put right, finally, even though it's late in life.
>If people accepted it more for what it was and didn't read terrible meanings into it I think it would be useful for clearing up backlogged anger. Hitting a pillow and that type of thing doesn't do it for me.There are some types of therapy where yelling at others is ok, but I think it would have to take place in a very controlled environment. I guess psycho-drama is like this. I like Kristi's suggestion of yelling in the car (alone) at the top of your lungs, where no one can hear you, it's great! Used to do it all the time when I lived with my OCD husband...
So, Mist, just my two little cents... Hope you find a beneficial way to get it all out... Several threads here lately have to do with some of the issues you raised.
Best,
Wendy
Posted by Mitch on November 19, 2001, at 23:22:19
In reply to Re: Primal Screem therapy » paxvox, posted by Kristi on November 19, 2001, at 10:00:12
Hi Kristi and Pax,
I remember living all of my teenage years in a remote rural area where there was a commune a few miles from our cabin. My sister and I jumped in my '68 Chevy BelAir and decided to drop in for a visit in '76 (my sophomore year in high school). They were "doing" Primal Scream Therapy there at the commune. We were told by the guide (the head of the commune) to not worry about any sounds you heard from there (therapy in progress). There is supposed to be some body of thought and structure to it-I wonder where that info is now??
Mitch
> Its funny...... but let me tell you it works!!!!!
> I get into my car after work and just keep screeming as loud as I can..... my energy depletes and I'm in for a nice nap. :-)
>
> I am currently on my way to an IRS audit. I bet I'll do a lot of screeming on my way home from that!!
> Anyway... I believe a lot of my anger and depression is because I've brought it inward. But that was the way I was raised. If I wore my feelings on my sleeve... I was weak. When I started therapy I amazed myself at the things that came out. Anyway, my 1 cent...
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> > Oh, indeed yes! That explains many people's depression. These are the one's who *maybe* CAN help themselves by getting counselling help. Other emotions turned inward can also cause depression; essentially ANY emotion bottled up is not a good thing. That is why a catharsis every now and again can be a good thing. Primal scream therapy? I have heard of stranger things. Also, it can be repressed memories, not necessarily anger, but guilt etc... that can make one ill. My wife is particularly adept at doing that, yet refuses to go to counselling with me. I guess it's like an addiction; until YOU are ready to face the fact that YOU have a problem, you will never resolve it. But back to your inquiry, anger retention can be easily resolved if that is causing your problem. However, your anger may just be a manifestation of a deeper problem or issue, and may be just the most visible emotion.
> >
> > PAX
Posted by Shar on November 19, 2001, at 23:42:27
In reply to Re: Whatever happened to anger turned inward?, posted by mist on November 19, 2001, at 13:02:39
I still believe anger turned inward is very related to depression, and turning emotions inward is still something I have to watch out for. In the simplest terms, turning inward is the difference between suicide and homicide.
My take on the emotional side of turning inward, is that very little gets conveyed--anger, love, sadness, etc.--and ultimately we start feeling helpless and hopeless, and my favorite, trapped.
So, we might twist off occasionally and unload, but if we don't learn to deal with those emotional things we have less of a chance to start approaching life in a more effective way. And emotions don't stay in no matter how hard we stuff them--they come squirting out in all directions.
I think maybe in clinical depression--when someone who has never had any trouble with depression gets hit with a major depressive episode--is probably the main type that is primarily chemical.
Shar
> One of the reasons I asked the question was that since use of anti-depressants became more widespread I hear much less discussion about emotions in relation to depression. Chemical and cognitive approaches seem the most common.
>
> I don't find cognitive techniques helpful (at least not methodical ones as in the book Feeling Good). Just because I change the words I'm thinking doesn't change my feeling about something.
>
> While I hope to find a medication that will help alleviate my depression, I don't want to overlook the role that emotions and how one handles or processes them play in the condition.
>
> For me, depression often follows from a sense of powerlessness in a situation. I'm not sure if it's the hopelessness or the possible unexpressed anger about it that's the problem.
>
> I'm not sure how "turning anger inward" works, either. What actually goes on when someone does that and why does it lead to depression? Is depression a way of just shutting everything down so nothing happens?
>
> I have also heard that anxiety can be a sign of unexpressed anger.
Posted by sar on November 20, 2001, at 0:15:00
In reply to Re: Whatever happened to anger turned inward? » sar, posted by mist on November 19, 2001, at 18:01:36
> sar, this sounds interesting as an approach to try although I don't entirely understand it. I wonder what type of actions they're referring to? -mistsimply, as the Dalai puts it, :), good conduct. for instance, if you are stealing lipsticks from the store you will have negative feelings and thoughts. if you give a ride to a friend in need, this will lead to you feeling good (selfish altruism?).
the only example i can offer is that i've recently been tutoring small children on phonics and simple reading. these children make me laugh, they bring me joy, and they are happy to see me. i am happy that i am making them happy and, in some small way, helping them with their studies.
when i make offhanded insults to my family, steal a beer, neglect or harrass a friend, i feel poorly.
isn't the simplicity of this amazing? i'm not saying that good conduct--as our great Dalai puts it--can eradicate depression; i just think it can lead to those little bursts of joy or satisfaction. years ago, i heard a special on NPR about depression, and they said that no one is "happy all the time"--you cannot strive for happiness--the most you can do is compile as many moments as joy as possible.
this has stuck with me for years.
Posted by sar on November 20, 2001, at 0:16:59
In reply to Re: Whatever happened to anger turned inward?- Sar, posted by Mair on November 19, 2001, at 19:43:44
> >
> > My psychiatrist of a few years ago said something which I think is similar. It was something like with people who are depressed, positive actions lead to insight not the reverse. I'm probably not stating this well. I also wish I had questioned him more carefully because I'm not sure I understand it now, but I was much too depressed then to follow up with anything.
>
> Mairdear Mair,
i think you stated your thoughts well. see my above post to Mist...that pretty much sums up what i think...
Posted by mist on November 20, 2001, at 0:17:31
In reply to Re: discharging anger, posted by wendy b. on November 19, 2001, at 23:15:22
Wendy, thanks for your post. I'm sorry about the reaction you got from your family members in the situation you mentioned! I wanted to clarify something, which is that one-sided blasting of one party to another isn't what I meant. I meant fighting where both sides are equally involved. These kinds of fights kind of escalate. The physical analogy is one person gives the other a little push, the other pushes back maybe a tiny bit harder, the first one shoves the other one with more force (angry energy) and it builds—but they are both equally and willingly participating. If this is done (its verbal equivalent, of course) without things being said that are meant to destroy the other person's self-esteem, on an occassional basis it can serve the purpose of clearing the air and releasing anger. But both sides have to be comfortable with it and immediately drop the anger after it's over (which is easier to do when one doesn't hold the belief that fighting is always a terrible thing and anyone who fights with them is not their friend, etc.)As for me, I don't know if I have a lot of anger or not at this point, although maybe that's because it's all "turned inward" and just making itself known through my depression.
Posted by sar on November 20, 2001, at 0:18:20
In reply to Re: Whatever happened to anger turned inward?- Sar, posted by sar on November 20, 2001, at 0:16:59
Posted by sar on November 20, 2001, at 0:23:15
In reply to Re: Whatever happened to anger turned inward? » sar, posted by Dinah on November 19, 2001, at 20:21:32
dear Dinah,
what do you mean by an "as if" person?
sometimes i do good things and end up feeling like stale white bread. one of my favorite authors, Charles Bukowski, didn't feel good unless he felt bad.
personally--i have to choose carefully with actions...i enjoy teaching and entertaining. working in a soup kitchen would probably piss me off.
this is a new principle for me, one i intermittently use by trial-and-error.
what makes you feel good? what brings you joy?
Posted by sar on November 20, 2001, at 0:29:05
In reply to Re: Primal Screem therapy » Kristi, posted by Mitch on November 19, 2001, at 23:22:19
once again, i must bring up the writings of Armistead Maupin, a novelist who wrote with true humor about the kitschy stuff of the seventies and early eighties--including Primal Scream Threapy and something called "est" WHICH I'VE YET TO FIND A DEFINITION FOR...anyway, Maupin is a good read for depressives because he's funny and an easy read, plus his novels come in a series so you're not disappointed when one ends...he may not be a definitive literary genius, but he's a hilarious social commentator and quite captivating...in one of his books he describes some sort of man-retreat involving primal screaming and such...it's such a scream!
love,
sar
Posted by Phil on November 20, 2001, at 6:55:22
In reply to Whatever happened to anger turned inward?, posted by mist on November 19, 2001, at 0:38:49
Posted by Dinah on November 20, 2001, at 8:52:42
In reply to Re: Whatever happened to anger turned inward? » Dinah, posted by sar on November 20, 2001, at 0:23:15
> dear Dinah,
>
> what do you mean by an "as if" person?I have heard the theory of doing the actions and the feelings and thoughts will follow described like this. If you and your husband are having trouble, act as if everything were great. Presumably in time, he will respond to this treatment and both of your feelings will improve towards one another.(It will break the cycle you are in.) Or if you feel nervous about a meeting, act as if you are confident and you will feel more confident. Or if you are feeling empty, do something good for someone else and it will bring feelings of purpose to you. Or if you are having trouble feeling pleasure or joy, act as if you are still having loving feelings towards your dogs (for a personal example). Pick them up, cuddle them, enjoy their softness, do all the things you would do if you felt OK. You will get the good feelings that come from the actions. I've just never found this to be true for me, although heaven knows I've tried. So I do act "as if" but I feel that there is nothing under the acting, hence the "as if" person.
> this is a new principle for me, one i intermittently use by trial-and-error.
>
> what makes you feel good? what brings you joy?At the moment I'm afraid nothing brings me joy. Being alone, reading, taking hot baths help me feel relaxed and comfortable.
I really shouldn't have posted as I did. I didn't mean to be discouraging. Intellectually I still believe in the as if theory. It may well work very well for you and is certainly worth trying. If nothing else, it makes life easier since acting as if makes interpersonal relationships easier.
Posted by Mitch on November 20, 2001, at 9:35:56
In reply to Re: Primal Screem therapy--kristi and pax, posted by sar on November 20, 2001, at 0:29:05
Posted by mist on November 20, 2001, at 10:38:01
In reply to Re: Whatever happened to anger turned inward? » mist, posted by sar on November 20, 2001, at 0:15:00
sar, I think treating people well and helping them can be gratifying but I guess for me not enough to change the way I feel overall. Regardless of what I do, there's a bottomless pit of depression and anxiety under all my actions and moments. -mist
> > sar, this sounds interesting as an approach to try although I don't entirely understand it. I wonder what type of actions they're referring to? -mist
>
> simply, as the Dalai puts it, :), good conduct. for instance, if you are stealing lipsticks from the store you will have negative feelings and thoughts. if you give a ride to a friend in need, this will lead to you feeling good (selfish altruism?).
>
> the only example i can offer is that i've recently been tutoring small children on phonics and simple reading. these children make me laugh, they bring me joy, and they are happy to see me. i am happy that i am making them happy and, in some small way, helping them with their studies.
>
> when i make offhanded insults to my family, steal a beer, neglect or harrass a friend, i feel poorly.
>
> isn't the simplicity of this amazing? i'm not saying that good conduct--as our great Dalai puts it--can eradicate depression; i just think it can lead to those little bursts of joy or satisfaction. years ago, i heard a special on NPR about depression, and they said that no one is "happy all the time"--you cannot strive for happiness--the most you can do is compile as many moments as joy as possible.
>
> this has stuck with me for years.
Posted by sar on November 20, 2001, at 12:41:03
In reply to Re: Whatever happened to anger turned inward? » sar, posted by Dinah on November 20, 2001, at 8:52:42
Dinah,
i see what you're saying...that's the Marge Simpson approach--"have a bowl of strawberry ice cream and everything will be all right."
what i really meant--but didn't explain well--is the belief in Good Conduct. being virtuous, i suppose. if there's something wrong with your marrigae, i don't think you should act "as if" everything is okay--i just mean, keep your side of the street clean. keep your behavior kosher.
your marriage could be a disaster, it would be terribly phony to act as if everything were okay--but i think the law of Good Conduct simply means not resorting to anything down 'n' dirty.you are not being discouraging, we're just sharing our views and trying to figure all of this out. i know what you mean about being alone and taking hot baths...i'm pretty much in the same boat. depressed. i've just noticed that dooing "bad" things exacerbates the depression...i went into my volunteer work smelling like a brewery and they gossiped about me, i'm cheating on my boyf...these things make me feel worse.
arrrgghhh...i'm getting way too repetitive, i just don't think anyone should be an "as if" person.
Posted by sar on November 20, 2001, at 12:46:51
In reply to Re: Whatever happened to anger turned inward? » sar, posted by mist on November 20, 2001, at 10:38:01
> sar, I think treating people well and helping them can be gratifying but I guess for me not enough to change the way I feel overall. Regardless of what I do, there's a bottomless pit of depression and anxiety under all my actions and moments. -mist
>
Mist,i think i know what you mean. i am a depressed person who has to swallow 12 pills a day, i just get a little kick every once in awhile, like when i talk to funny old men or when i drink a beer and listen to "farewell song" by janis joplin.
these things do not really assauge the depression, they just make me feel a little better in the moment.
of course, you could be in a much worse spot than me. for many months i felt very broken and teary-eyed, very nihilistic...i hope you're getting some treatment...
sar
Posted by Dinah on November 20, 2001, at 17:06:51
In reply to Re: Whatever happened to anger turned inward? » Dinah, posted by sar on November 20, 2001, at 12:41:03
> Dinah,
> if there's something wrong with your marrigae, i don't think you should act "as if" everything is okay--Hi sar,
That isn't really what I meant. It's not a passive pretense that everything is OK. It's a very active decision to act differently - to not wait until the problems are solved or the other person behaves the way you would like, but to behave in the loving way you would want to feel in a marriage. The idea is that it breaks the unproductive cycle that you get in in a relationship, and encourages positive change. And actually it is a very effective relationship technique, in my experience. As I said, behaving "as if" is good in an interpersonal sense. It just doesn't change my internal feelings.
> arrrgghhh...i'm getting way too repetitive, i just don't think anyone should be an "as if" person.No argument here. :(
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