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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Racer on September 9, 2001, at 14:09:45
Weird, isn't it? Recently several people have mentioned an old lover of mine, someone I hadn't thought of in years. Almost 20 years, actually. Then I wrote to him, and he wrote back. He'd like to meet, and I'd like to see him, too, but I have some -- terrors, actually, but let's call them "concerns", eh?
For one thing, I'm involved with someone now who is wonderful, tries so hard to be understanding of my depression, pushes me to keep going when I need it, helps me set limits on how far down I can sink before really fighting back, and shares many of my interests. That sounds more like a nursemaid than a lover, but I've never laughed so much with anyone in my life. The stupidest things can set us off, and I've never been with anyone who recognized all my jokes, even if he doesn't always get them. We do have problems, though, and one of those problems is jumping up in a big way over this situation.
See, the old lover was exciting. Sexually exciting. No man has ever excited me so much before or since. Don't ask me what made the difference, since other men have done what he did, it's just that it only felt good with him. I'm excited and satisfied by my current love, but only when we actually make love -- which hasn't been for more than six months now! I've tried to initiate things, I've tried to talk about it, I've told him that I have a problem with this, but he says he's just so stressed from work, that it's not me, etc. Every time work calms down a bit, another crisis comes up for him. He denies anything else is going on, but something else is obviously going on. Not in the sense of another lover, that I trust. But something inside him, and I can't convince him to discuss it with me.
Anyway, the problem is that I am truly in love with this man. I want to spend the rest of my life with him, forsaking all others. On the other hand, I'd love to see the old lover, catch up, throw back a few beers and belt out a few chorusses of "Those Were The Days" together. I don't think he'd be interested in trying to relive those knee-weakening encounters, hell, I don't even know if he was ever excited by me nearly as much as I was by him! I'm just afraid that I'm going to come home crying over what was and can never again be.
Damn, someone say something, please? In the end, I'll doll myself up (as well as I can these days), have a cup of coffee or a lunch with the OL, and come home ready to cook and clean and care for my True Love.
Maybe my real question is what the hell do I do with the man I have and love now? He's out of town right now, but when he comes back I'm going to suggest strongly that we see a marriage counselor or a sex counselor. He says all sorts of things, but won't DO anything. I'm so frightened that I'll find he doesn't really want me. Maybe that's why I haven't pushed so far.
Argh! Thank God for people who understand these thoughts and fears. Thank you all, and Thank Bob, too, I guess. I'll be waiting to hear everyone's input, and watching Finian's Rainbow, with Tommy Steele, while I wait. Petula Clark really was lovely, wasn't she?
Posted by Phil on September 9, 2001, at 17:26:54
In reply to Sex, committment, old lovers, regrets -- all that, posted by Racer on September 9, 2001, at 14:09:45
You're kind of in a vulnerable spot and seeing an old flame now is gonna be putting yourself, possibly, in a place you may not want to go.
What would you advise a best friend or a niece do?
Try to do that.Disclaimer: I am not, never have been, and probably never will be an expert on any affairs of the heart. That's why I have a cat. He's pissed at me too but I really wasn't petting another cat.
Good to hear from you Racer
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 9, 2001, at 17:40:51
In reply to Re: Sex, committment, old lovers, regrets -- all that, posted by Phil on September 9, 2001, at 17:26:54
> I'd say you have to "fix" what's going on in your current relationship before even considering seeing an old flame. And then still don't do it.
Sometimes I think we humans like to torture ourselves, perhaps to remind us we're alive? (I've been through a similar experience).
Good luck.
- K.
Posted by Racer on September 9, 2001, at 18:34:31
In reply to Re: Sex, committment, old lovers, regrets -- all that, posted by Phil on September 9, 2001, at 17:26:54
> Disclaimer: I am not, never have been, and probably never will be an expert on any affairs of the heart. That's why I have a cat. He's pissed at me too but I really wasn't petting another cat.
My cat's pissed at me, too, but that's not because of the OL thing. He's just got an unhappy inner kitten. He came from a dysfunctional litter.
And for the record: I don't want to rekindle anything with this fellow! I'd like to see him because of something that happened way back when, but I think I know that it can't be that way ever again. He's not "Like Us", in so many ways. My SO and I are both brainiacs, which is probably why he can deal with the depression. We share interests in science, tech, history, etc; things this other guy isn't involved in. I know that teenage gropings are nothing compared to mature commitments.
Thanks for the response, and especially for the smile about the cat. I have an infestation of them, so I do understand the issues involved there!
Now, anyone out there faced the "healthy partner doesn't want sex while the dysfunctional one is climbing the walls" routine? What happened? Is there any hope for me? Sexually, that is?
>
> Good to hear from you RacerThanks, my little Phil O'Dendron. It's always nice to be welcomed back! And believe me, it makes such a difference!
Posted by susan C on September 9, 2001, at 18:40:03
In reply to Re: Sex, committment, old lovers, regrets -- all that, posted by Krazy Kat on September 9, 2001, at 17:40:51
Mmmmmm, it took me YEARS to get over my 'old lover' relationship...in my head...and all those things you said...25 years later, he called me...saw my name in the college alumni list and wondered, is it really?....called me up....25 years....I had been with spouse....just like you describe...caring devoted....but I had gotten over him, my first flaming love. He had gone off, married someone who also knew how to sail (I didn't) lived on a remote island they both taught school and had four kids. He is now divorced and living on his boat. At one point in the conversation, he reflectively said, 'you really loved me then didn't you?' Yes, I said, I did, I still care for you, and I am in a relationship with a person who, for the last many many years has stood by me and cared for me as I have been very ill. Through good times and bad. At the end of this conversation, we exchanged addresses, phone numbers, mumbling something about being in touch. I have lost all his numbers, I would never go to see him, because years ago I figured out why it was a good thing he dumped me. After I hung up the phone, I realized he had never changed. And that I am very fortunate to be with who I am with. It took a lot of soul searching to get to this place. No matter how good the physical relationship was, it wasn't as good as the package is now.
Thank you for sharing your intimate reflection. It had me stop and remember a similar moment in time. I had to take time to think and write it down for you.
Susan C
Mouse with a past
> > I'd say you have to "fix" what's going on in your current relationship before even considering seeing an old flame. And then still don't do it.
>
> Sometimes I think we humans like to torture ourselves, perhaps to remind us we're alive? (I've been through a similar experience).
>
> Good luck.
>
> - K.
Posted by JennyR on September 9, 2001, at 19:09:31
In reply to Re: Sex, committment, old lovers, regrets -- all that, posted by susan C on September 9, 2001, at 18:40:03
I had e-mail contact with my first love from junior high and high school. We were incredibly compatible but stayed friends because we thought if we became a couple that early that would be it for life and we would miss out on so much of life. We made a pact that when we were 30 or 40 if we hadn't found anyone to marry, we'd get married. In college we got out of touch. I'm turning 44 now. About a year ago I looked him up, did a web search, found his website and e-mail address. He's still single. I'm married for 17 years. We corresponded for a while til I saw what he was STILL doing with every woman he meets, holding back, afraid to commit, then wondering why he's single. He got pissed at me for giving advice (maybe I did overstep) and he also said the things I was recalling meant more to me than they to him and he didn't even remember the pact. We're out of touch and I wish I hadn't reached out. Just another thing to be sad about.
Anyway, on the sex thing with your current boyfriend, here's some unsolicited advice. Don't under-estimate the importance of the lack of sex on his part. I lived a virtually sexless marriage for most of my marriage because of my husband's hang-ups. He started the boycott on our honeymoon. It is all about issues about manhood, masculinity, the father who divorced his mother to be a playboy, the time he caught his mother and stepfather "doing it" and he thought he was hurting her, etc, etc, etc.
Bottom line is it did a whole lot to make me very, very unhappy for many years. We're a little back into the swing of things the last couple of years, but this area was way more satisfying in prior relationships. It would be nice to think sex doesn't matter, but it can be something that really binds you or is a real source of resentment and problems.
Posted by Mair on September 9, 2001, at 21:38:04
In reply to Re: Sex, committment, old lovers, regrets -- all that, posted by JennyR on September 9, 2001, at 19:09:31
> Racer - how would you feel if your current SO got together with one of his old girlfriends? You say you want to get together to work something out, but IMHO nothing really gets worked out years later. I see you having very little to gain and much to lose.
Good to have you back.
Mair (formerly ksvt)
Posted by Wendy B. on September 9, 2001, at 21:59:23
In reply to Sex, committment, old lovers, regrets -- all that, posted by Racer on September 9, 2001, at 14:09:45
I think these issues come up to teach us lessons, sometimes right when we most need them.
I think Phil is right, you don't want to see this other guy right now, not when your current relationship is causing you so much, umm, frustration. Seeing Mr. Old Flame is going to bring back all the passionate moments, and you'll go home to the significant other with a lot of resentment, which sounds like it's building anyway.
So take care of your own house and your own problems first... You may be able to see the old flame sometime, but it sounds like the time is not now.
The lesson? You don't have to settle for less than what you want, but you have to know what you want first. Take your man to therapy with you, and if that helps the two of you find your sex life again ('oh, it's right here under this pile of laundry...!'), great. Sometimes I think couples have to be reminded of why they loved each other in the first place, or they're not communicating well & the therapist might be able to help them with that. If he won't go, you'll have to decide whether sex is a make-or-break issue for you. For some people, it's not. IMHO, it is a make-or-break, definitely, but I know all couples don't feel the same.
You sound like a woman who understands her sexuality and finds it an important part of life. If you deny yourself a sex life that is exactly what you want, you will be doing harm to yourself. You are a real woman, and real women have needs! I have no doubt your depression will feed off this situation, & as you've hinted, it has already. I can imagine what it has done to your self-esteem... which is why you might have considered seeing the old flame again, because you may want to see if you're still attractive to somebody. But I believe that you are... I don't know you, but remember your posts from a while back, and wish you the best in this challenging time in your life. Hope your depression is under control for now, too --
Yours,
Wendy
> Weird, isn't it? Recently several people have mentioned an old lover of mine, someone I hadn't thought of in years. Almost 20 years, actually. Then I wrote to him, and he wrote back. He'd like to meet, and I'd like to see him, too, but I have some -- terrors, actually, but let's call them "concerns", eh?
>
> For one thing, I'm involved with someone now who is wonderful, tries so hard to be understanding of my depression, pushes me to keep going when I need it, helps me set limits on how far down I can sink before really fighting back, and shares many of my interests. That sounds more like a nursemaid than a lover, but I've never laughed so much with anyone in my life. The stupidest things can set us off, and I've never been with anyone who recognized all my jokes, even if he doesn't always get them. We do have problems, though, and one of those problems is jumping up in a big way over this situation.
>
> See, the old lover was exciting. Sexually exciting. No man has ever excited me so much before or since. Don't ask me what made the difference, since other men have done what he did, it's just that it only felt good with him. I'm excited and satisfied by my current love, but only when we actually make love -- which hasn't been for more than six months now! I've tried to initiate things, I've tried to talk about it, I've told him that I have a problem with this, but he says he's just so stressed from work, that it's not me, etc. Every time work calms down a bit, another crisis comes up for him. He denies anything else is going on, but something else is obviously going on. Not in the sense of another lover, that I trust. But something inside him, and I can't convince him to discuss it with me.
>
> Anyway, the problem is that I am truly in love with this man. I want to spend the rest of my life with him, forsaking all others. On the other hand, I'd love to see the old lover, catch up, throw back a few beers and belt out a few chorusses of "Those Were The Days" together. I don't think he'd be interested in trying to relive those knee-weakening encounters, hell, I don't even know if he was ever excited by me nearly as much as I was by him! I'm just afraid that I'm going to come home crying over what was and can never again be.
>
> Damn, someone say something, please? In the end, I'll doll myself up (as well as I can these days), have a cup of coffee or a lunch with the OL, and come home ready to cook and clean and care for my True Love.
>
> Maybe my real question is what the hell do I do with the man I have and love now? He's out of town right now, but when he comes back I'm going to suggest strongly that we see a marriage counselor or a sex counselor. He says all sorts of things, but won't DO anything. I'm so frightened that I'll find he doesn't really want me. Maybe that's why I haven't pushed so far.
>
> Argh! Thank God for people who understand these thoughts and fears. Thank you all, and Thank Bob, too, I guess. I'll be waiting to hear everyone's input, and watching Finian's Rainbow, with Tommy Steele, while I wait. Petula Clark really was lovely, wasn't she?
Posted by sar on September 10, 2001, at 1:27:20
In reply to Re: (...) all that » Racer, posted by Wendy B. on September 9, 2001, at 21:59:23
just wanted to add my 2 cents...
if you love your SO so much, wouldn't it serve you best to be completely honest with him? in a conversational, heart-to-heart way of course, but, you could ask--
what happened to our sex life?
--and--
i'm curious in seeing this old flame of mine. how would that make you feel?
my *own* experience--the only boyfriend who i've had who turned sex down turned out to be *gay.*
the best lay of my life was kind of a *dork.* amazing sex ain't enough to keep things working.
my current boyfriend isn't the best lay ever, but i'm so crazy about him that i extract the most pleasure from him...
old flames can bring up alot of weird feelins too, anywhere from passion to anger to both...
if you want to keep things smooth and kosher, i'd sit the SO down for a huge talk.
good luck,
sar
Posted by Racer on September 10, 2001, at 6:02:46
In reply to Re: (...) all that..from a young'un...Racer, posted by sar on September 10, 2001, at 1:27:20
> i'm curious in seeing this old flame of mine. how would that make you feel?
Actually, my SO knows all about the OL thing. Not the part about OL being the most physically overwhelming man I've ever encountered, but the part about being in touch and getting together. Just wanting to set that part straight! I'm not 'cheating', in the sense that I wouldn't keep something like this from my SO.
And someone said something about my feelings about my SO being in touch with an OL of his own: he is! His longest SO before me is still a friend of his, someone I know he cares about deeply, and I encourage that. My SO is also friends with my last SO, and actually *begged* him to come to my mother's for Christmas last year! We both think that the friendships we've made in earlier years are valuable, and that if the other can maintain a friendship with an OL, that's all to the good. After all, if the ex is the devil incarnate, what were we doing with that person to begin with??? At least, that's the way it's been for us.
So, the big issues for me are just all the memories, I guess, and the desire to be the girl I was when I was with this fellow. That, and to experience that overwhelming bliss of this OL making love to me. Mind you, I know that it wouldn't be the same. I know that there are only disappointments in that sort of thing. I also know that my SO would be hurt, and I would never want to hurt him.
Hell, I don't know. I do know that I will not do anything as stupid as going to bed with this guy. I do know that I'm in love with my SO, and that we can overcome his hangups -- if he is willing. I also know that the lack of sex is a make or break for me. If he's not willing to work on it, well, that's a deal breaker. I think he'll work on it, but I'll have to make clear that it's a "do it now, or regret it later" sort of thing.
Thanks, everyone, for your thoughts and support.
Posted by Shar on September 11, 2001, at 11:53:42
In reply to Sex, committment, old lovers, regrets -- all that, posted by Racer on September 9, 2001, at 14:09:45
Hi, Racer--
Good to see that Moniker again!Do you and your SO have ANY kind of physical closeness? Hold hands while walking, snuggle in bed, pat butts, hugs of different kinds, arm around shoulder, sit close on the sofa?
Those kind of things? I think that might reveal the extent of the issue. IE, is it sex or closeness in general.
Also, think very hard about what was going on very close to the time this started. When he made the first "I'm too stressed" comment, what was happening between the two of you specifically? Getting ready to take a trip? Mundane life (work, home, work, home)? Someone yelled at someone? You got a new cat? What?
That can be VERY helpful in understanding the situation. It is a rare event that our behaviors are completely internally motivated; without exception we either give physical cues or there is an activating event in the environment (no matter how seemingly small, or unimportant it may seem).
Usually, an event takes us somewhere else (ie, to the past), reminds us of something, and then we have the old behavior in the present situation. I still have to watch that very carefully. I can do an instantaneous regression into the past, that is sparked by some very innocent things people do, and then my behavior in the present is what I did to defend myself in the past. If I can stay in the present, my life is much smoother.
Oh, and it is very likely that he may not make the connection between the past and what is going on now. It won't do any good, I bet, to ask him what past event is involved in his behavior. Or, what activated his current hiatus on sex.
Wow, I was on a roll with this long answer! Probably more than you wanted, but there it is. I hope you are enjoying the hell out of the positive parts of this relationship. Sounds like you are! Good!
xo
Shar/Rosebud
> Weird, isn't it? Recently several people have mentioned an old lover of mine, someone I hadn't thought of in years. Almost 20 years, actually. Then I wrote to him, and he wrote back. He'd like to meet, and I'd like to see him, too, but I have some -- terrors, actually, but let's call them "concerns", eh?
>
> For one thing, I'm involved with someone now who is wonderful, tries so hard to be understanding of my depression, pushes me to keep going when I need it, helps me set limits on how far down I can sink before really fighting back, and shares many of my interests. That sounds more like a nursemaid than a lover, but I've never laughed so much with anyone in my life. The stupidest things can set us off, and I've never been with anyone who recognized all my jokes, even if he doesn't always get them. We do have problems, though, and one of those problems is jumping up in a big way over this situation.
>
> See, the old lover was exciting. Sexually exciting. No man has ever excited me so much before or since. Don't ask me what made the difference, since other men have done what he did, it's just that it only felt good with him. I'm excited and satisfied by my current love, but only when we actually make love -- which hasn't been for more than six months now! I've tried to initiate things, I've tried to talk about it, I've told him that I have a problem with this, but he says he's just so stressed from work, that it's not me, etc. Every time work calms down a bit, another crisis comes up for him. He denies anything else is going on, but something else is obviously going on. Not in the sense of another lover, that I trust. But something inside him, and I can't convince him to discuss it with me.
>
> Anyway, the problem is that I am truly in love with this man. I want to spend the rest of my life with him, forsaking all others. On the other hand, I'd love to see the old lover, catch up, throw back a few beers and belt out a few chorusses of "Those Were The Days" together. I don't think he'd be interested in trying to relive those knee-weakening encounters, hell, I don't even know if he was ever excited by me nearly as much as I was by him! I'm just afraid that I'm going to come home crying over what was and can never again be.
>
> Damn, someone say something, please? In the end, I'll doll myself up (as well as I can these days), have a cup of coffee or a lunch with the OL, and come home ready to cook and clean and care for my True Love.
>
> Maybe my real question is what the hell do I do with the man I have and love now? He's out of town right now, but when he comes back I'm going to suggest strongly that we see a marriage counselor or a sex counselor. He says all sorts of things, but won't DO anything. I'm so frightened that I'll find he doesn't really want me. Maybe that's why I haven't pushed so far.
>
> Argh! Thank God for people who understand these thoughts and fears. Thank you all, and Thank Bob, too, I guess. I'll be waiting to hear everyone's input, and watching Finian's Rainbow, with Tommy Steele, while I wait. Petula Clark really was lovely, wasn't she?
Posted by Racer on September 12, 2001, at 1:19:23
In reply to Re: Sex, committment, old lovers, regrets -- all that » Racer, posted by Shar on September 11, 2001, at 11:53:42
> Hi, Racer--
> Good to see that Moniker again!
>
> Do you and your SO have ANY kind of physical closeness? Hold hands while walking, snuggle in bed, pat butts, hugs of different kinds, arm around shoulder, sit close on the sofa?That's what's so horrible about this: yes, we have closeness: but only when there's NO chance whatsoever of it leading to sex. He'll cuddle me in the kitchen. He pets my bottom the way he does the cat's every morning while I cook, but only if it's a weekday when we have to go to work. He gets big when he sees me naked IF we're already late somewhere.
What happened when this started? Three things: my cousin/brother and his wife got pregnant. I had a miscarriage which I worked hard not to let him know about. (I know, but I didn't even tell him I was pregnant -- knowing it would end so soon. That's my tragedy: I want children so much, but have miscarried so many times I won't even say I'm pregnant until I've passed the ninth week) And I had an orgasm that shook the world. (His last girlfriend told him that he was the only reason she didn't like sex. He's told me that he never managed to bring a woman to orgasm before me -- he's almost 40 -- so I suppose he's a little intimidated by a responsive woman.)
My therapist and I have discussed this. I really do think he's a bit afraid of my sexual responsiveness. Mind you, my ex told our marriage counselor that he didn't like sex with me because I came too easily -- he wanted more of a challenge!!!! She laughed at him, told me half of her clients wanted to meet me, the other half wanted to BE me. Anyway, I can understand that he might be overwhelmed by me, but still -- that's his problem. My problem is that I'm in love with a man who won't touch me in a sexual way and I really, really want sex. Hell, I don't even care if it's got the "L" word involved! I'm climbing the damn walls here, and my vibrator just ain't cutting it!
Thanks for listening.
And for the lumpish cntingent: I lost my cookies and my bookmarks and can't find the compass points to get back there. Is it still there?
This is the end of the thread.
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