![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Trotter on October 31, 2008, at 18:59:52
I have spent a lot of time studying the nature of happiness. This has been motivated by a desire to be more happy (as in not depressed), but also because it is in my personality to want to understand things.
In my research I have indentified a paradox between desire and acceptance. Desire leads to purpose, meaning, goals, passion and energy, all of which can contribute to a sense of happiness. On the other hand, acceptance, as in feeling satisfied with oneself and one's world also gives one a sense of happiness. Yet there is much conflict between the two. A highly motivated, passionate person will have great difficulty feeling contentment, and vice versa.
Trotter
Posted by Phillipa on October 31, 2008, at 21:08:30
In reply to Desire versus Acceptance, posted by Trotter on October 31, 2008, at 18:59:52
Trotter been both in my life seriously liked the contentment more as it was rather relaxing. Just to read a book not want more was a good feeling just an example. Phillipa
Posted by obsidian on November 1, 2008, at 0:02:58
In reply to Desire versus Acceptance, posted by Trotter on October 31, 2008, at 18:59:52
sounds kind of buddhist....
but yes, that is a huge struggle
just being ok with what I've got is a hard thing for me to do
and dealing with all the pain for what I haven't had
but I'm not sure I want to be ok with what I haven't had
I don't think it's ok, not for me and not for anyone else eithersometimes I can feel acceptance, in certain circumstances
hope you find some type of middle road :-)
Posted by antigua3 on November 1, 2008, at 5:56:44
In reply to Desire versus Acceptance, posted by Trotter on October 31, 2008, at 18:59:52
I agree with what you've written. But I just want to add that happiness can come with acceptance. Acceptance doesn't have to mean just settling for everything you have, but it can help let some issues recede a bit, and sometimes, before you know it, you find that you are actually happy.
I think it's the letting go part that's important to me. To do what I can to change, and to understand that there are just some things I can't, like what my childhood was like.
So, I think acceptance can lead to happiness, as long as we still work on the big things, too.
antigua
Posted by Nadezda on November 1, 2008, at 9:24:46
In reply to Re: Desire versus Acceptance » Trotter, posted by obsidian on November 1, 2008, at 0:02:58
Hey, obsidian--
I totally identify with your not wanting to be okay with what you haven't gotten. No one would ever ask -- or expect-- you to be. You don't need to, to get to a much better place.
What needs to happen-- I say this only because I've come, too, from a position where I felt very intensely that things never could or would be okay, because of all that I'd missed out on-- is that over time, your T will be able to give you enough-- and help you find enough in other places in your life-- that it won't any more be a matter of being okay with what you didn't get.
What happened won't ever be okay-- but, even though now it seems overwhelming, you'll over time, find that it's receding in importance, and that other things are coming into view-- things that offer a great deal, and are so much more present and valuable now-- at this moment in your life-- than the old past, which you really don't need to live in the shadow of.
So while I would never want you to accept what happened as okay it doesn't that things for you-- and in you-- can never be okay. This is just a hard time, during which things are changing in ways that you aren't yet aware of, but that I feel you'll become able to use over time. From my own experience, although sometimes the process is difficult, it really does make a difference and things really do change.Nadezda
Posted by Nadezda on November 1, 2008, at 9:32:13
In reply to Re: Desire versus Acceptance » Trotter, posted by antigua3 on November 1, 2008, at 5:56:44
I don't think happiness or acceptance are static, or become states that reign without any interruption-- I think they're progressive, momentary, and evolving--intertwined with the progressive, momentary and evolving experiences that can evoke, or dissipate, them.
You can be more or less in a mind to accept or to join experience with resistance or refusal. But the waves of these emotions, or attitudes, can be always succeeding one another, and interacting.
So I don't find them so much contradictory, or opposed, as potentially building on one another and mutually supporting. Sometimes both desire and happiness can be impaired, but I think they can also nurture one another, and create excitement and vitality.
If one's disappointment or inability to find adequate objects for desire becomes too intense, it could destroy one's ability to desire, and to accept. To the extent that desire leads inevitably to disappointment, it can become destructive-- but only if the disappointments are too crushing-- which I suppose is always a risk with desire.
Nadezda
Posted by turtle on November 1, 2008, at 11:02:16
In reply to Desire versus Acceptance, posted by Trotter on October 31, 2008, at 18:59:52
I don't necessarily view these concepts as exclusive opposites.
When Passion is set up as an opposite of Acceptance, it makes Acceptance feel like "settling for less". There is another way of looking at acceptance - "opening to all".When I look at the history of the relationships throughout my life, for the most part I always maintain quite a bit of distance. (I'm working on this in therapy.) There was one relationship though that stands out from the others in it's intensity and closeness. It was an unconventional relationship, and I knew I was going to get hurt. A huge shift occurred in me. It was only through complete acceptance (being open, absorbing everything, not trying to change the situation, accepting both the intensely good and the intensely painful) that I was able to experience the passion. I learned that you can't exclude the pain without also excluding the good things. I also learned to allow opposite truths to both exist at the same time.
To some extent I see "desire to be happy" as flawed in that it is focused on only allowing the good. I see Acceptance as allowing *all* to be, absorbing and opening to it all. In giving up the struggle to exclude the painful you also find a way to open the door to the Passion.
Posted by Trotter on November 1, 2008, at 16:05:20
In reply to Desire versus Acceptance, posted by Trotter on October 31, 2008, at 18:59:52
I am so glad to find that others find the topic of desire and acceptance interesting enough to contribute to this thread. From my perspective I see it as tremendously important, and perhaps central to any meaningful improvement in the quality of my life.
The points of view already raised show a keen appreciation of the issues involved. In my opinion all the views expressed have been insightful, even those seemingly opposed to each other. I have been playing around with this for quite a while now and have not reached any simple solution - probably because there isn't one.
This process has made me more conscious of desire/purpose, acceptance/contentment in my day to day life. I have found this helpful to better appreciate the feelings and emotions involved. For example at this very instant in time I consider myself to be relatively happy. This subjective happiness is made up largely of feelings of excitement and optimism stimulated by my desire (to understand this issue) and fuelled by positive feedback (your posts), but also a feeling of connection (with you guys!).
Trotter
Posted by happyflower on November 1, 2008, at 16:47:48
In reply to Desire versus Acceptance, posted by Trotter on October 31, 2008, at 18:59:52
WOw, this is a good subject. It is hard to know if you have all you can have in your life, sometimes I wonder if there is something better.
But I think there is a level of acceptance of medium happiness you can find within yourself. But people are always changing and growing, so I am sure the medium level moves with that.
Posted by Daisym on November 1, 2008, at 17:22:49
In reply to Re: Desire versus Acceptance, posted by happyflower on November 1, 2008, at 16:47:48
I agree that these are not mutually exclusive concepts. Can we look at these things from the dual pieces of our brain? Our left brain may accept what is true and real and unchangeable. Our right brain flares with emotion - that passion to get, to fight and or the change things. I'd like to throw in here that I think happiness and acceptance go well together - though neither are static states - and that Joy and Desire go well together. When you "get" what you have desired, there is a surge of joy that is beyond happiness. It doesn't last as we then begin to desire the next thing - it is human nature.
I wrestle with a different question around this: Is it better to strive for happiness or "not being unhappy." They are very different states - and I think "not being unhappy" is close to the acceptance you speak of. I think achieving peace within myself might lead to not being unhappy. And yet, I think I was just born to be one of those people who says, "hey, wait a minute. If I do this, then that gets better. So I don't have to accept that as a reality. I can use myself as an agent of change." Which often leads to huge disappointment but great joys as well.
Do you talk about this in therapy? (anyone?) It is a great existential topic.
Posted by Trotter on November 1, 2008, at 23:29:48
In reply to Desire versus Acceptance, posted by Trotter on October 31, 2008, at 18:59:52
In a quiet Mexican fishing village, an American who was on vacation saw a local fisherman unloading his catch. He decided to approach him.
The American asked the fisherman, why are you finishing your day so early?
The Mexican replied Oh Senor, I have caught enough to feed my family and a little extra to sell for today. It is now time to go for lunch with my family and have a siesta. In the afternoon, I can play with my kids. In the evening, I will go to the cantina, drink a little tequila and play the guitar.
The business professor was horrified at the fishermans lack of motivation to succeed. He answered, If you stay out at sea until late afternoon, you will easily catch twice as much fish. You can sell the extra, save up the money and in six months, maybe nine, you will be able to buy a bigger and better boat, and hire some crew.
He continued, In another year or two, you will have the capital to buy a second fishing boat and hire another crew. If you follow this business plan, in six or seven years, you will be the proud owner of a large fishing fleet.
Just imagine that! Then you can move your head office to Mexico city, or even to L.A. After only three or four years in LA, you float your company on the stockmarket giving yourself, as CEO, a generous salary package with substantial share options. In a few more years listen to this! you initiate a company share buy-back scheme, which will make you a multi-millionaire! Guaranteed!
The American got very excited at the prospect himself. He said, I definitely know these things. Im a well known professor at the US Business School.
The Mexican fisherman listened intently at what the animated American had to say. When the professor had finished, the Mexican asked him, But, Senor Professor, what can a person do after getting millions of dollars?
Now, the American professor hadnt thought that far. He was taken aback by the question.
So he quickly figured out an answer Amigo! With all that dough, you can retire. Yeah! Retire for life! You can buy a little villa with a picturesque fishing village like this one, and purchase a small boat for going fishing in the morning, You can have lunch with your wife every day, and a siesta in the afternoon, with nothing to worry you. In the afternoon, you can spend quality time with your kids, and after dinner in the evening, play guitar with your friends in the cantina, drinking tequila. Yeah, with all the money, my friend, you can retire and take it easy.
Puzzled with the Americans suggestion, the Mexican fisherman replied, but, Senor Professor, I do that already!
Posted by Trotter on November 2, 2008, at 11:34:33
In reply to Re: Desire versus Acceptance » Trotter, posted by obsidian on November 1, 2008, at 0:02:58
> sounds kind of buddhist....
I have a Buddhist therapist, and certainly my thinking has been influenced by Buddhist philosophy.
> but yes, that is a huge struggle
> just being ok with what I've got is a hard thing for me to do
> and dealing with all the pain for what I haven't had
> but I'm not sure I want to be ok with what I haven't had
> I don't think it's ok, not for me and not for anyone else eitherSounds like you are suffering from feelings of lack. IMO feeling lack is the source of our desire for things, or for things to be different. Lack is the dark side of desire. The more lack that is felt, the less contentment is possible.
I am not suggesting to just blindly accept everything. Often it is appropriate to want change. But if change is not practical, like with things that have happened in the past, the better able you are to accept and be 'okay' with the past the happier you will feel. It may be a case of accepting what happened as wrong and unfair, but that you are still okay, and you still have opportunities for happiness. I mean, what does it really take to feel okay? Not much really. If we are alive, then we have the capacity to accept our situation as okay. Being okay doesn't have to be a relative term, just an attitude.
> sometimes I can feel acceptance, in certain circumstances
Yes, it isn't a black and white thing we either have or don't have. It certainly depends on circumstances. Some things we can accept more easily than others.
> hope you find some type of middle road :-)
Yes, I am thinking the best approach is probably middle of the road. I am not Buddhist, but I see acceptance and contentment as very desirable for happiness.
Trotter
Posted by Trotter on November 2, 2008, at 11:42:48
In reply to Re: Desire versus Acceptance » Trotter, posted by antigua3 on November 1, 2008, at 5:56:44
Hi Antigua,
> I agree with what you've written. But I just want to add that happiness can come with acceptance. Acceptance doesn't have to mean just settling for everything you have, but it can help let some issues recede a bit, and sometimes, before you know it, you find that you are actually happy.
I absolutely agree.
> I think it's the letting go part that's important to me. To do what I can to change, and to understand that there are just some things I can't, like what my childhood was like.
Yes, letting go of the need for things to be different, and having the wisdom to know what is worthwhile to change.
> So, I think acceptance can lead to happiness, as long as we still work on the big things, too.
> antiguaI see acceptance as a pretty big thing, but I agree there are other big things, like love, optimism and purpose.
Trotter
Posted by Trotter on November 2, 2008, at 12:26:25
In reply to Re: Desire versus Acceptance, posted by Nadezda on November 1, 2008, at 9:32:13
Hi Nadezda,
> I don't think happiness or acceptance are static, or become states that reign without any interruption-- I think they're progressive, momentary, and evolving--intertwined with the progressive, momentary and evolving experiences that can evoke, or dissipate, them.
Yes, our feelings and emotions are always changing and getting mixed up together, depending on experiences. We are not designed to be happy or content all the time.
>
> You can be more or less in a mind to accept or to join experience with resistance or refusal. But the waves of these emotions, or attitudes, can be always succeeding one another, and interacting.True.
> So I don't find them so much contradictory, or opposed, as potentially building on one another and mutually supporting.
I don't believe desire and acceptance are opposites, but I do believe they work in opposition to one another. The more one desires something, or things to be different, the less one is accepting things as they are, and the less contented one can be.
However I do believe that desire and contentment can be mutually supporting. For example one can strive to achieve things during the day, and provided one has been sufficiently successful, one can then reflect on those achievements and stimulate contentment in the evening. Of course the trick is to be satisfied with the level of success achieved, and not instead focus on what is still to be done.
>
>Sometimes both desire and happiness can be impaired,Yes, I'm familiar with this condition :).
>
>but I think they can also nurture one another, and create excitement and vitality.Yes, desire does create excitement and vitality. I tend to call this happiness too, but it is altogether a different flavor of icecream to contentment. Which flavor do you prefer? I like both, but perhaps I am being too greedy. :)
>
> To the extent that desire leads inevitably to disappointment, it can become destructive-- but only if the disappointments are too crushing-- which I suppose is always a risk with desire.Yes. The motivational speakers say dare to dream. Shoot for the stars. Certainly if you want to be successful it pays to aim high and build strong desire. But the higher you aim the more likely you will ultimately fail. Look how many depressed successful people there are in all fields of endeavour. The problem with strong desire is that one is rarely 100% successful in gaining the object of one's desire. Most of the time we are totally or partially unsuccessful, and this certainly does not bring happiness.
I'm not saying desire is bad. But I do believe that without at least a balancing amount of acceptance, one will not be very happy.
Trotter
Posted by Trotter on November 2, 2008, at 13:02:55
In reply to Re: Desire versus Acceptance, posted by turtle on November 1, 2008, at 11:02:16
Hi Turtle,
>
> When Passion is set up as an opposite of Acceptance, it makes Acceptance feel like "settling for less".If one has a persistent feeling that one is "settling for less", then one is not truly accepting the situation, at least not from an emotional perspective. One can make a conscious decision to accept a situation and still not accept it emotionally. If one feels one is settling for less, then one is feeling lack, and this will certainly not encourage contentment. BTW, I do believe passion works in opposition to acceptance, which is a potential problem.
>
>There is another way of looking at acceptance - "opening to all".Yes, I agree an attitude of being "open to all" does encourage acceptance and therefore contentment.
>
> When I look at the history of the relationships throughout my life, for the most part I always maintain quite a bit of distance. (I'm working on this in therapy.) There was one relationship though that stands out from the others in it's intensity and closeness. It was an unconventional relationship, and I knew I was going to get hurt. A huge shift occurred in me. It was only through complete acceptance (being open, absorbing everything, not trying to change the situation, accepting both the intensely good and the intensely painful) that I was able to experience the passion. I learned that you can't exclude the pain without also excluding the good things. I also learned to allow opposite truths to both exist at the same time.Sounds like a submissive relationship. Some people find happiness in this form of relationship. In fact it is normal for women to be totally submissive in some cultures. Provided one exercises complete acceptance, this can certainly be a path to happiness. However it does make one very dependent on one's partner.
>
> To some extent I see "desire to be happy" as flawed in that it is focused on only allowing the good. I see Acceptance as allowing *all* to be, absorbing and opening to it all. In giving up the struggle to exclude the painful you also find a way to open the door to the Passion.Nice approach. Take the good with the bad.
Trotter
Posted by Trotter on November 2, 2008, at 13:12:09
In reply to Re: Desire versus Acceptance, posted by happyflower on November 1, 2008, at 16:47:48
Hi happyfower,
> WOw, this is a good subject. It is hard to know if you have all you can have in your life, sometimes I wonder if there is something better.
Yes, I think it is our nature to want things to be better than they are. This wanting causes discontent, which is not good, but if one didn't want things to get better, then one would not be motivated to change things for the better. This presents us with an ongong challenge I think. What to improve/change, and what to accept.
Trotter
Posted by Trotter on November 2, 2008, at 14:11:46
In reply to Re: Desire versus Acceptance, posted by Daisym on November 1, 2008, at 17:22:49
Hi Daisym,
Great post!
> I'd like to throw in here that I think happiness and acceptance go well together - though neither are static states - and that Joy and Desire go well together. When you "get" what you have desired, there is a surge of joy that is beyond happiness. It doesn't last as we then begin to desire the next thing - it is human nature.
I tend to go along with you here. I relate happiness as more in tune with contentment than the pleasureable states created through desire, excitement, positive anticipation, flow, sexual passion etc, although these states certainly involve positive feelings.
Although I agree with you that joy is more commonly experienced when in an excited state, I think maybe you underestimate the potential for joy through contentment. Picture yourself relaxing in a comfortable chair on a porch or balcony, your favorite drink in hand, after a productive day, your children are happily playing in the background, you feel that you are an okay person and that life is good. Can you imagine joy arising from this state of contentment?
>
> I wrestle with a different question around this: Is it better to strive for happiness or "not being unhappy." They are very different states - and I think "not being unhappy" is close to the acceptance you speak of. I think achieving peace within myself might lead to not being unhappy. And yet, I think I was just born to be one of those people who says, "hey, wait a minute. If I do this, then that gets better. So I don't have to accept that as a reality. I can use myself as an agent of change." Which often leads to huge disappointment but great joys as well.I'm certainly wrestling with these issues. There are, however, other sources of happiness than desire. Love/connection is a big one. Helping others works for some people. Having a spiritual dimension. Optimism about the future helps. One can add these to contentment to increase one's level of happiness without needing to engage desire.
Desire and the pursuit of the object of one's desire can come from a dominant feeling of lack. This creates an edgy sort of desire, a sense that one 'needs' to do something for things to be okay. People who operate this way throughout life may become very successful, but remain miserable (like me). If they stop striving to achieve things for too long the lack of contentment causes unhappiness, so they have to find something else to chase.
> Do you talk about this in therapy? (anyone?) It is a great existential topic.
I do discuss it with my therapist.
Trotter
Posted by DAisym on November 3, 2008, at 22:40:13
In reply to Re: Desire versus Acceptance » Daisym, posted by Trotter on November 2, 2008, at 14:11:46
*****Although I agree with you that joy is more commonly experienced when in an excited state, I think maybe you underestimate the potential for joy through contentment. Picture yourself relaxing in a comfortable chair on a porch or balcony, your favorite drink in hand, after a productive day, your children are happily playing in the background, you feel that you are an okay person and that life is good. Can you imagine joy arising from this state of contentment?******
No. Sorry. For me, this state of contentment would give rise to either a worry about what was gonna wreck this ideal scene or it would give space to think about "what is next." I find my joy in doing or writing or creating - not from reflecting or those quiet moments. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate them, I'd feel happy..but they don't just give me that surge of joy. Joy is that feeling that you can, at this moment, do anything and the world is yours to conquer.
Do you think that the pursuit of one's desire could come from a dominant feeling of purpose - not necessarily lack or need?
Posted by Trotter on November 4, 2008, at 18:26:28
In reply to Re: Desire versus Acceptance » Trotter, posted by DAisym on November 3, 2008, at 22:40:13
> No. Sorry. For me, this state of contentment would give rise to either a worry about what was gonna wreck this ideal scene or it would give space to think about "what is next." I find my joy in doing or writing or creating - not from reflecting or those quiet moments. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate them, I'd feel happy..but they don't just give me that surge of joy. Joy is that feeling that you can, at this moment, do anything and the world is yours to conquer.
I appreciate what you are saying. This has largely been my own experience with joy as well, at least through much of my life.
I think most people have great difficulty in reaching a state of contentment. Simply sitting on the porch etc will not bring contentment by itself. Most people will indeed start worrying about what they should be doing or what is wrong with their lives. That is the nature of the self, to worry about needs not being met, and to plan how to meet them. Just sitting there will gradually increase uncomfortable feelings of lack, associated with some needs not being met. Doing something takes one's mind off these unfilled needs and the feelings of lack diminish.
The usual way to 'feel better' and temporarily banish lack is to desire something and get busy planning to achieve it, or take steps to achieve it, or simply dream about it. This creates energy and positive anticipation, which combine to create a feeling of enthusiasm, which you might also describe as joy (energized positive feeling).
>
> Do you think that the pursuit of one's desire could come from a dominant feeling of purpose - not necessarily lack or need?A very good question. I have been wrestling with this one for a while. I certainly would like to think that one can have purpose without a feeling of lack (of one's needs), but for me it is still an open question.
I believe purpose must be underpinned by desire, or it won't motivate sufficiently to be useful. In fact from an emotional point of view, for all intents and purposes, I classify purpose AS desire. I'm not talking about a stated purpose written on a piece of paper. I mean when you feel purpose.... when it inspires, energizes and provides meaning, then you are actually experiencing the emotion of desire.
So to me, and this is just my opinion based on my own perspective, your question becomes: "Do you think that the pursuit of one's desire could come from a dominant desire - not necessarily lack or need?" Of course this does not make logical sense, but perhaps the underlying question is "Do you think desire/purpose can exist without lack or need?"
My current thinking is that lack, as in the uncomfortable feeling that a need is not being met, is in fact the trigger for desire. If anything, desire amplifies that feeling of lack. Imagine walking into a cafe and spotting a delicious looking cake. You begin to really, really want it. You may even feel you need it so much it hurts. That is desire and lack feeding off themselves. That's not to say desire makes one feel bad, in fact usually quite the reverse. In a healthy mind the positive feelings associated with desire overpower the negative feeling of lack. One could argue that the best antidote for lack is desire. Similarly the best antidote for someone ruminating on how bad life is to get some purpose. Unfortunately depression stifles desire, which explains why depressed people cannot "pull themselves up by their bootstraps".
I think if one feels minimal lack and strong desire then one can experience joy. If one feels persistent or strong lack, and minimal desire (as in motivating desire, not just wishful thinking) then one experiences suffering. Buddhism argues that you can't have one without the other. If you want the joy from desire you will have to endure the suffering from lack, and the balance won't always be in your favour.
I still think you are underestimating the value of contentment. When one is stuck in the lack/desire endless loop, as most people are, one cannot experience true contentment. Is it possible you don't know what you are missing? They have connected Buddhist monks to brain monitoring machines and found that the regions of the brain associated with pleasure are MUCH more activated than in normal people. To me, this indicates they are experiencing joy. Speaking for myself, I have experienced joy on occasions while looking out over my balcony and connecting with nature. The key is to get the focus off the self.
Sorry for the long post. Obviously this is an issue that excites me (strong desire). :) I also appreciate that these are only my personal views, and in some respects I may be quite wrong. It is a work in progress. I hope I am not coming across as an arrogant know-it-all. I certainly don't feel that way. In fact I feel quite distressed at times by my lack of understanding with regards this subject.
What do you think?
Trotter
Posted by Trotter on November 16, 2008, at 13:41:15
In reply to Desire versus Acceptance, posted by Trotter on October 31, 2008, at 18:59:52
I just read a really interesting book by Jill Bolte Taylor Ph.D called "My Stroke of Insight". Jill is a neuroanalyst who suffered a stroke, where she lost the function of the left side of her brain. She eventually recovered, but for a long time she lived virtually entirely in the right side of her brain.
She experienced great inner peace and joy. She described it as nirvana. She felt as one with everything. Full of love and peace. She couldn't talk or think logically, but she was in heaven. This is the state the Buddhists aim for, but few actually achieve.
Over the eight years after the stroke she gradually recovered the left side of her brain, but tiny bit by tiny bit. All her memories and 'programming' gradually came back on line, much of it she did not like. As much as she could she chose what parts of her 'old self' she wanted to embrace, and rejected the rest.
Basically the left side of the brain is where the self is located, where all the mind chatter, judging, and analysis goes on. The right side is more pictures, impressions, living in the present moment. What is really interesting is that true happiness resides in the right side, and you don't have to do anything to experience it. One just has to access the right brain to be happy. Of course the problem is with most of us the left side of the brain is more dominant, so we experience little happiness. The left brain is great at getting us what we want/need, but it does not allow us to be lastingly happy.
How does all this relate to the original topic I brought up - the perceived conflict between desire and acceptance? Well the ego is located in the left brain, and it wants wants wants. It is never satisfied for long. To access more of the right side of the brain one needs to loosen ego's grip, and one's attachment to ego's needs. This is more an attitude of acceptance. Fuelling one's desires will tend to activate more of the left side of the brain, while an attitude of acceptance will tend to weaken left brain dominance, and allow easier access to the right brain. I'm not saying acceptance takes you directly into your right brain and therefore nirvana, but it will take you in the right direction.
To oversimplify things, the left brain helps you carry out evolution's purpose, take care of your needs, raise a family, have a career etc. The right brain cannot so these things, it is pretty dumb really, but it is the place of infinite love and happiness. Of course we want/need to live/succeed in the real world (left brain) but also be happy (right brain). Unfortunately the western world has become increasingly left brain dominated, with increasing selfishness and anger, and reduced happiness. To compete with others we become swept up in this left brain domination, to the detriment of our well-being.
To a large extent I think it comes down to a choice of the degree of success or happiness you want. It is not a case of one or the other, but they do tend to oppose each other. The more one is in the left brain the less one has access to the right, and vice versa.
One thing Jill Taylor has cleared up for me is that lasting joy and happiness is reached through inner peace and love (contentment), not through desire and passion.
Trotter
Posted by DAisym on November 16, 2008, at 19:34:27
In reply to Re: Desire versus Acceptance, posted by Trotter on November 16, 2008, at 13:41:15
Hmmm...I haven't read the book but it was mentioned in the lecture I went to this weekend. The book is supposed to be much better than the video, which I have not seen either.
But I don't think the research supports your conclusion that happiness is found in the right brain. In fact, people who favor their right brain are typically less happy than people who favor their left. At least in self-descriptions. There are a lot of theories on this, including people who live in their left brain have no need for emotional analysis so they don't think about how they feel. And I think we need to define "self" as different pieces are in different parts of the brain. What seems to be true, based on PET scans is that the capacity to be open and embrace life versus being constricted and afraid of life is located on the left side of frontal cortex - but has nothing to do with the actual left or right side of the brain. I think it is interesting that the author talked about living in the moment in the right side of the brain as that is where the auto-biographical information is stored - essentially your history and memories. Just goes to show how complicated all this is.
Posted by Trotter on November 17, 2008, at 13:54:22
In reply to Re: Desire versus Acceptance » Trotter, posted by DAisym on November 16, 2008, at 19:34:27
In Jill Taylor's book she largely talks about left versus right brains, which I appreciate is oversimplifying things. However she is a neuroscientist, so I trust that this is a helpful generalisation.
That was a really good point you made about right brain people being less happy than those who favor left. I was unaware of this, but am happy at this point in time to accept this as fact.
I had an epiphany this morning, before I read your post, but it certainly relates to it. Please forgive me if it is an oversimplification by only talking in left and right brains without descriminating specific areas such as frontal cortex etc.
Here goes! What we all ideally need are fully integrated left and right brains. The left brain needs to have a well developed sense of self (self-esteem), purpose and be decisive. The right brain needs to love and feel connected. Both are important, and the more I can integrate both into my daily life the happier I will be.
This proposition is consistent with right brain dominated people not being happy. To be happy I think people do need a strong sense of self and purpose in their lives, and this comes from the left side of the brain. I have noticed myself, when I have come out of a period of right brain dominated activity (meditation/loving-kindness), my self seems lost, and doesn't know quite what to do. It feels somewhat weak and impotent. This is because the self has been ignored, not nutured. A strong sense of self is maintained by the left brain constantly chattering positive thoughts (conscious and unconcious) and it also benefits from having direction (purpose) to feel secure.
People who live too much in the left brain will also not be happy. It is important to love and feel connected. I believe one's capacity to love is very closely tied to ones ability to be happy. A scientist who is always in his left brain may sustain his life with passion for his work, but unless he takes time out to love and connect (right brain), I think he will ultimately suffer burn out and depression.
So I still maintain the right brain is where pure happiness is to be found, but unless one can live ENTIRELY in the right brain (think stroke or monk), without a nagging and needy self interfering, it is essential to have a well developed left side as well, otherwise the needy self will not let the right brain person enjoy his right side. Does that make sense?
Anyway, I see this as an epiphany for me because it addresses my ongoing dilemma regarding desire/purpose/goals/self versus acceptance/contentment. Yes, it is possible to achieve nirvana by living virtually entirely in the right side of one's brain, but it is not practical nor achieveable in the real world. To do it you need to shut yourself away in a monastery and meditate 24/7 or have a stroke like Jill Taylor or Ekhart Tolle (he doesn't admit to having a stroke, but it sounds to me like he had one). The solution is to nurture the self (left brain) and have goals and purpose, and encourage productive desire (not all desires are helpful), but equally important is to regularly exercise the right brain through loving and compassion. The ideal is to be able to switch rapidly between the two according to what is happening in one's life. For example being enthusiastic about one's work, but coming home and being loving towards one's family.
How do I apply this in my own life? I need to develop a set of beliefs/affirmations and encourage positive self talk. I need to set new goals that give my life purpose and inspire. I need to set aside regular time to meditate, practice loving-kindness and connect spiritually with Mother Earth (ME, get it?). I need to practice switching between desiring/doing and loving/connecting in my daily life, depending on which mode is more appropriate at the time.
However I am aware that with me, today's epiphany can be tomorrow's trash. I hope I am onto something with this. It really is holding me up from getting on with living my life. I think what I have outlined is obvious and intuitive to normal mentally healthy people. My right brain is a bit retarded and not well integrated with my left so I have to 'work out' what is just intuitively known by others.
I appreciate your comments DAisym, even when you don't agree. You seem to have thought quite a bit about the subject too. Just a pesonal interest, or are doing formal study?
Trotter
Posted by DAisym on November 17, 2008, at 17:24:17
In reply to Re: Desire versus Acceptance » DAisym, posted by Trotter on November 17, 2008, at 13:54:22
It is a field of study for me and a personal passion for trying to understand why I am like I am and why the kids I work with are like they are.
Have you ever heard of morning pages? It is a technique of journal writing first thing every day in which you write out all your fears, thoughts, to-do lists, random dreams -- whatever. It is essentially a brain dump. The idea being to integrate the left and right brains - the right with all those images and the left makes a cohesive narrative out of everything.
After doing this for a short time, it begins to help you organize yourself and integrate the right and left brain. I've been trying to remember which book this comes from, but I will look it up and get back to you.
Posted by zenhussy on November 17, 2008, at 19:19:45
In reply to Re: Desire versus Acceptance » Trotter, posted by DAisym on November 17, 2008, at 17:24:17
Posted by DAisym on November 17, 2008, at 20:02:20
In reply to morning pages from--Julia Cameron-The Artist's Way (nm), posted by zenhussy on November 17, 2008, at 19:19:45
Yes! thanks Zen. And I finished her other book this summer, "Walking In the World." I recommend both.
This is the end of the thread.
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