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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 30. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by JayMac on October 31, 2008, at 19:14:44
So.....my T and I share a similar passion. We both love to read. In addition to that, I love reading about theory and psychology type stuff (not to be confused with pop psychology Dr. Phil-type books). She is very well educated and experienced in her own theoretical framework, and I have a huge interest in it as well. So.....sometimes we intellectualize things and she'll use a technical term or I'll use one. Then we'll realize that we shouldn't use such jargon and that I need to express myself emotionally instead of simply intellectually and that she needs to avoid using those terms as well. (By the way, I have a HUGE tendency to just explain my life as if it were someone else's story instead of my own. I kinda depersonalize it. I also tend to intellectualize everything. With the help of my T, I don't do it as much and I actually let myself FEEL my emotions and I know that's HUGE progress).
Nevertheless, I feel like since we do share this sort of interest and it helps me feel more connected to her, I find myself wanting to ask her a million questions about a topic that I know she literally teaches. For example, last week I asked her about a certain term (because it was on one of my midterms) and she gave me her own explanation of it. And this totally gets my attention: I find myself wanting to hear more and more of her thoughts.
I feel like since she's such an expert in her field, that I want to literaly ask her a hundred questions about it and its application in a clinical setting, etc. I feel like some of this relates to my need to feel attached, but I'm not sure how much of it is too much. When does it (asking about theory and such) cross a boundary? Or is this even crossing a boundary? She tells me little things about herself all the time. She is psychdynamically oriented, but she does disclose and does it with meaningful and loving intent.
I don't know how much sense this makes to any of you. But I feel like her knowledge and my interest of psychology could be teetering on a dual relationship because of the professor/student relationship that can occur.
I don't know. Maybe I'm making something out of nothing, but this topic just got me thinking. She knows that I'm an avid reader (outside of grad school text) and she'll suggest an article or a book on a topic we're discussing. On one hand, I absolutely LOVE LOVE LOVE that we have this in common, but I also don't want either one of us to cross any boundaries. I love my T, she's one of the greatest things since sliced bread. I just don't want to compromise or jeopardize any aspect of our relationship. I'm afraid that I will gain her intellect but lose the special connection between us and I would HATE for that to occur.
I hope this makes sense. It makes sense to me, but I can understand that this could be very abstract, especially since it's not a clear-cut example of a dual relationship. Of maybe it's not a dual relationship. I don't know.....I'm confused, but, at the same time, I'm not.
Maybe the topic is not relevant, maybe we might as well be talking about gardening and how she loves roses and I just so happen to love roses as well. And I ask her how often she waters her. As a result, we converse about the best way to nurture our flowers. Maybe it's more the friendship aspect that I desire. I'm more confused about this than I have ever been.
Anyhow I just thought I would get your feedback. Thoughts? Feelings?
Let me know if I need to clarify anything.
As always, thanks for your support =)
JayMac
Posted by Maria01 on October 31, 2008, at 20:51:55
In reply to Is this an example of a dual relationship?, posted by JayMac on October 31, 2008, at 19:14:44
It's a boundary crossing only if you and your T think it is. You two are the only ones who can decide what constitutes a boundary crossing and what doesn't(within reason, of course).
Just my .02
Posted by Phillipa on October 31, 2008, at 21:11:45
In reply to Re: Is this an example of a dual relationship?, posted by Maria01 on October 31, 2008, at 20:51:55
I've always intellectualized things and it's always been brought to my attention by pdocs. Maybe since it's a passion you should go into psychology if you weren't already. Phillipa
Posted by lucie lu on October 31, 2008, at 22:55:13
In reply to Is this an example of a dual relationship?, posted by JayMac on October 31, 2008, at 19:14:44
Hi Jay,Good to hear from you, you've been rather quiet recently :) Also glad you are continuing to enjoy and get a lot out of your relationship with your T.
One thing in particular that strikes me from your post is, why do you feel you need to protect the therapy and therapeutic relationship with your T? This is not supposed to be your job but hers! It is interesting that you feel the need to do this. Now that I think about it, your previous posts have often contained some element of this worry for you. I think you should discuss this with your T, because that is really not something that should be on your shoulders. I realize, and respect, your desire to take care of your T but this is a role reversal and not the way that therapy should work. I'm not suggesting that she is delinquent in any way, I'm sure she is fully capable of "minding the store" 100% - so why do you feel you are the one who needs to? Maybe something in your past? This could be a great area to open up.
Take care,
Lucie
Posted by obsidian on November 1, 2008, at 0:13:27
In reply to Is this an example of a dual relationship?, posted by JayMac on October 31, 2008, at 19:14:44
I think I might know what you mean. I've read quite a bit of psychology, and I often read it to understand myself and the therapy more
but, I have had this real reluctance to discuss things theoretically
in some ways however, it helps me be less ashamed of myself, because I can make sense of it somehow, on the basis of how someone else has described and explained it
but, it can also be a problem when it comes with a pathologizing flavor
I bring that kind of stuff in small doses
My T is probably an awesome teacher, and I am often tempted to use terms and concepts, but I really try to understand things mostly on an emotional level in therapy. For me, it feels like a different relationship if I am too much in my head. So, I can understand why you used the term "dual relationship".
Posted by JayMac on November 1, 2008, at 2:10:27
In reply to Is this an example of a dual relationship?, posted by JayMac on October 31, 2008, at 19:14:44
Thanks for all your responses.
Honestly, I don't know what the f**k is going on. Sad, but true. I'm confused. After posting that, I left 3 voicemails on her office phone. I told her I was angry and upset. I told her that I feel the need to challenge her.
I don't know........I'm still confused. I just want to rip her apart. That sounds mean, I don't intend to make it seem that I don't like her. I just want to tear her down. Ironic, but whatever............
Posted by antigua3 on November 1, 2008, at 6:02:13
In reply to Re: Is this an example of a dual relationship?, posted by JayMac on November 1, 2008, at 2:10:27
I think this is all very natural, and part of the T/patient bonding and trusting process. You've found a way to bond with her, but you recognize that you hold back emotionally. Maybe this is the next step to moving further into your therapy. It sounds like you're doing that with your voice mails and wanting to test her.
I don't see any boundary crossings, just a patient and a T who have found a way to relate so that you can trust her and move forward.
We all have different ways of relating to our T. Having a T who likes to read what I like to read (fiction, mostly) has helped bring us together. It makes me respect her more.
good luck,
antigua
Posted by Nadezda on November 1, 2008, at 9:10:21
In reply to Is this an example of a dual relationship?, posted by JayMac on October 31, 2008, at 19:14:44
Hi, JayMac.
I don't think it's become at dual relationship if you're asking questions of your T, or experiencing her as a teacher and yourself as a student, during the time you work with her. Ts often figure as many different people in our lives, during a therapy relationship.--your can feel as if she's a mother, father, or any other person of importance to you.
If you actually took a class, where she were your teacher, for example,, that would turn the relationship into a dual one. Sometimes, this is inevitable, if someone is studying psychology or analysis, and also having a personal analysis (more than a teaching analysis-- if there's a difference, which I guess there) with a senior analyst at an analytic institute-- to take a common example. Other times, it's something that evolves more out of a desire to be close to your analyst or T,-- so that you took psychology classes, or even majored in psychology mostly to be closer and more connected to him/her. That, obviously, could be a problem, if you began to subvert your own interests and talents to foster the (perceived) greater closeness.
Perhaps what you're questioning is whether you're using this interest to mask other, perhaps less positive emotions, or to avoid having to confront your feelings. Sometimes idealization covers up competitiveness or even more negative feelings-- or is a way of trying to construct a special relationship, either as a way of creating trust, or of avoiding the sense of lack of trust. Or, it could be a result of having a hard time seeing people as both good and bad-- and separating the good from the bad, so as to experience people in a whole and unconflicted way. So there are lots of where your interest in your T's area of professional expertise and your curiosity could indicate some issue that's behind it-- or they could be perfectly fine, and signs of what they seem to be-- interest in an interesting subject.
If you feel you're getting distracted by your desire to learn more about her field-- I can really understand that. It feels as if maybe it's taken on a life of its own and isn't really enough about you and what's pressing now. And the excitement you feel at times might disturb you-- it might seem somehow out of place, as if you're going off on a tangent-- or losing touch with her-- as the two of you talk more about concepts and ignore the intense emotions that are stirred up. If she's gotten out of kilter with you, I feel confident that she'll know how to right the relationship and steer it back to more solid ground. The two of u ou'll handle this, though-- especially because, you seem very self=aware and committed to the process-- and are already aware of this potential pitfall. It's not bad in itself-- but is a matter of degree and context.
I'm not sure why you suddenly wanted to tear your T down. How did that come out of your first emotions? did you connect it to anything in the appointment, or the relationship, that's happened recently? Has she responded?
I hope you're feeling better.
Nadezda
Posted by happyflower on November 1, 2008, at 9:28:05
In reply to Re: Is this an example of a dual relationship? » JayMac, posted by antigua3 on November 1, 2008, at 6:02:13
I really don't see it as a duel relationship, I have had this experience with both T of my first T's. Having something in common is comforting and it makes opening up easier. But, yes there is a BUT here.
It sounds like you are in college, and I am sure there are also students and other professors you could talk to about psychology theories. (plus it doesn't cost you money)
Now while it is okay to talk about this stuff with your T as long as it isn't the bulk of your session, if it is, I would think it might be preventing you from working on your personal issues.
Now I love to talk about psych theories ( I am a psych/criminal justice major) plus I love to grow flowers.... so we could talk and it wouldn't cost us anything! ;-)
Posted by happyflower on November 1, 2008, at 9:30:13
In reply to Re: Is this an example of a dual relationship? » antigua3, posted by happyflower on November 1, 2008, at 9:28:05
Posted by JayMac on November 1, 2008, at 9:40:06
In reply to Re: Is this an example of a dual relationship? » JayMac, posted by Nadezda on November 1, 2008, at 9:10:21
Again, thanks for all your responses.
Let me clarify a little bit: I have a huge passion (and passion isn't a big enough word to describe it) for psychology, this is neither because of her nor a result of her. This has been passion for the past 7 years, and, in a way, basically my whole life. What is a direct result of our relationship, is my profound interest in psychoanalytic theory (object relations to be more exact). I see this is in multiple ways. Yes, it does help me to feel connected to her. Yes, I thoroughly enjoy speaking with her about it. Yes, understanding the intellectual aspects of myself can help me in therapy. My T has a very specific specialty, which originally brought me to her. Even before conceiving the notion of seeing a therapist, my interest in this subject has been great! Then, I meet her, and she opens my mind to a whole new world. One filled with depth, critical thinking, mastery, and a passion to help people. I really see our meeting as a blessing from God, who intentionally brought us together!
I am a graduate student so our talk about theory or whatever is extremely eye opening. Her perspective on things is different than my professors and vice versa. I respect each of their points of view. I enjoy seeing things from different pairs of glasses. Also, in order to be a great therapist, I believe you must learn all the theories available, so you can best help your patient. But at the end of the day, a lot of that totally minimizes what really needs to be spoken about: The relationship.
When everything is said and done, and there has been innumerable research on this topic, IT IS THE RELATIONSHIP THAT MATTERS. No matter what theory the therapist uses no matter what school they came from. It's the relationship that HEALS.
My trouble right now, is with the relational aspect between us. I'm desperately trying to make sense of it. I understand it but I don't. Right now, I love her, but I want to challenge her. I'm forcing her to see things from my point of view. I know she does, but now I'm directly asking for it.
Posted by happyflower on November 1, 2008, at 10:09:42
In reply to Re: Is this an example of a dual relationship?, posted by JayMac on November 1, 2008, at 9:40:06
I do get what you are talking about, I felt that way with my old man T. I feel we were meant to come together for him to teach me what he knows. He has been doing therapy for over 40 years, and has used a lot of methods, but the one that has stayed consistent through out the years is giving patients unconditional positive regard (Carl Rogers) I hope some day to equal his knowledge of what he knows and how he is as a T. He was like a mentor to me and it was so valuable.
The thing I keep coming to is that your T can talk about theories as long as it pertains to your issues. While having intellectual conversations are wonderful ( I love them), I am just curious if you might be using them as an escape of your issues to work on in therapy. I could be totally off base, I am just talking from my experiences.
Posted by muffled on November 1, 2008, at 11:55:35
In reply to Is this an example of a dual relationship?, posted by JayMac on October 31, 2008, at 19:14:44
Not to me.
Not got time to read all replies, mebbe this a repeat.
But anyhow, it is VERY common for those of us in therapy to try and understand psychology stuff.
Maybe it helps you feel more balanced in your relationship w/T that you have knowledge like hers.
Maybe you are, like you say, itellectualizing, and frittering away therapy time 'chatting' about general psych stuff.
I do that to some extent w/my T.
Use the terminology.
For me, its avoidance.
Good luck
M
Posted by rskontos on November 1, 2008, at 13:42:55
In reply to Is this an example of a dual relationship?, posted by JayMac on October 31, 2008, at 19:14:44
JacMac,
a couple of things occurred to me, could be something could be hogwash. one is that maybe you two have a meeting of the minds so to speak in the psychology world, and yet you on the same hand feel inadequate in some part so now you want to challenge her in order to equalize the situation. Like I said could be hogwash.
And then as others have said it could be a way to avoid what is really going on or a way to avoid going deeper.
This is what I do. I use my intellectualize or left brain side to stay the heck away from getting "emo" as my children call getting to emotional. For some reason I think crying is an unpardonable sin in therapy. So I have to use babbling about nothing or trying to rethink my dx or something to avoid really talking about the things in my head. Maybe you sense you need to talk things a step further but decided to challenge her to see if a she can handle it and/or if she is worthy of it? Just a thought.
I do understand your point of view and your actions. I have done this too.
My t and I have connected this way. So I do understand what you are talking about. My T and I share psychology, he is a psychiatrist, we share books, movies and politics. Do I sometimes play to that to avoid stuff, yes, do I think he knows, yes. Why does he let me get away with it, because I think like you said because it is about having a relationship with someone like you may have never had one before. I never had a relationship like this with my father. Or my mother. So maybe for me he is being my Good parents. I don't know for sure. But I do know I enjoy this exchange for now. And I sure when the time is right I will go deeper.
Good luck you will figure out why you want to challenge her.
Take care,rsk
Posted by JayMac on November 1, 2008, at 15:13:39
In reply to Re: Is this an example of a dual relationship?, posted by Maria01 on October 31, 2008, at 20:51:55
Maria, I totally agree. Thanks for responding!
Posted by JayMac on November 1, 2008, at 15:14:59
In reply to Re: Is this an example of a dual relationship?, posted by Phillipa on October 31, 2008, at 21:11:45
Phillipa, thank you for your support. I'm in grad school for psychology. I absolutely love it! It's mine own therapy that is tough right now. Thanks.
Posted by JayMac on November 1, 2008, at 15:19:58
In reply to Re: Is this an example of a dual relationship? » JayMac, posted by lucie lu on October 31, 2008, at 22:55:13
Lucie, thank you! I've been quiet because I've been busy: midterms, work, and such. I always read the boards, I just don't always feel compelled to comment. Thanks for noticing though. I do tend to protect people, especially if I care about them. She and I have spoken about that and how I fantasize about doing it with her. She was really sick a couple weeks ago and I totally acted like a mother via email and calls. She saw it as an act of care, an act of love. But we both realize that I protect people from myself and others.
I completely agree that the boundary crossing is up to her to decide. I'm just not sure if she's aware of my point of view or not. I don't think it's necessarily crossing a boundary all the time. I don't call her up or email her to ask a question related to psychology/theory. I just think it's tricky because it can be interpreted as intellectulizing the relationship/therapy. She's done it, I've done it, we've agreed we both play a part.
I just want to connect with her on every level.Thank you.
Posted by JayMac on November 1, 2008, at 15:21:50
In reply to Re: Is this an example of a dual relationship? » JayMac, posted by obsidian on November 1, 2008, at 0:13:27
Sid, thanks for letting me know you can relate. It's more difficult for me to NOT use the terms. Instead, I just tip toe around the term and use the definition. Thank you.
Posted by JayMac on November 1, 2008, at 15:24:34
In reply to Re: Is this an example of a dual relationship? » JayMac, posted by antigua3 on November 1, 2008, at 6:02:13
Antigua, You got it! I just want to bond. I desperately want to bond!! I feel like I am attached, but right now I'm confused, anxious, avoidant. I do respect her more because of the bond. It's so hard to more forward. Thanks for your support.
Posted by JayMac on November 1, 2008, at 15:31:49
In reply to Re: Is this an example of a dual relationship? » JayMac, posted by Nadezda on November 1, 2008, at 9:10:21
Nadezda:
>I don't think it's become at dual relationshipYeah, I agree.
>Perhaps what you're questioning is whether you're using this interest to mask other, perhaps less positive emotions, or to avoid having to confront your feelings.
Wow, I haven't thought about that!!!
>Sometimes idealization covers up competitiveness or even more negative feelings-- or is a way of trying to construct a special relationship, either as a way of creating trust, or of avoiding the sense of lack of trust.
I think you are on to someting. I do think the idealization could be covering up my angry towards her (anger towards my mom).
>If she's gotten out of kilter with you, I feel confident that she'll know how to right the relationship and steer it back to more solid ground. The two of u ou'll handle this, though-- especially because, you seem very self=aware and committed to the process-- and are already aware of this potential pitfall. It's not bad in itself-- but is a matter of degree and context.Totally, a matter of degree/context. I do ultimately trust her. I'm just having a tough time right now. I feel like I'm on a pivotal place with her.
> I'm not sure why you suddenly wanted to tear your T down.
I have no idea. I told her in an email. Not sure where it came from, just an internal, sudden feeling I had this Thursday.
>I hope you're feeling better.
Thank you! Thanks for your insight!
Posted by JayMac on November 1, 2008, at 15:33:27
In reply to Re: Is this an example of a dual relationship?, posted by happyflower on November 1, 2008, at 10:09:42
Happy, I know what you mean. I see it this way: If it gets us distracted from doing therapy, if it's a form of resistence, then we both must step back and examine ourselves.
Thanks!
Posted by JayMac on November 1, 2008, at 15:35:08
In reply to Re: Is this an example of a dual relationship?, posted by muffled on November 1, 2008, at 11:55:35
Muff,
> Not got time to read all replies, mebbe this a repeat.No, your opinion is helpful.
> But anyhow, it is VERY common for those of us in therapy to try and understand psychology stuff.
Tell me about it!!!!!
> Maybe it helps you feel more balanced in your relationship w/T that you have knowledge like hers.
Yeah........I agree.
Thanks a lot!
Posted by JayMac on November 1, 2008, at 15:38:37
In reply to Re: Is this an example of a dual relationship?, posted by rskontos on November 1, 2008, at 13:42:55
Rsk,
> a couple of things occurred to me, could be something could be hogwash. one is that maybe you two have a meeting of the minds so to speak in the psychology world, and yet you on the same hand feel inadequate in some part so now you want to challenge her in order to equalize the situation. Like I said could be hogwash.
You are right!!! You are completely right!!!! She has mentioned this before, but we haven't gotten past her interpretation. I didn't know what to think of it, what to do with it. I do try to equalize the situation with her! I want to know more than she does! I want to be better than her!!!! Gosh...........it's hard feeling these feelings.
> And then as others have said it could be a way to avoid what is really going on or a way to avoid going deeper.
Yep, it is.
> This is what I do. I use my intellectualize or left brain side to stay the heck away from getting "emo" as my children call getting to emotional. For some reason I think crying is an Maybe you sense you need to talk things a step further but decided to challenge her to see if a she can handle it and/or if she is worthy of it? Just a thought.
> I do understand your point of view and your actions. I have done this too.
I'm glad you understand!
> Do I sometimes play to that to avoid stuff, yes, do I think he knows, yes. Why does he let me get away with it, because I think like you said because it is about having a relationship with someone like you may have never had one before.
Yeah...........I'm beginning to see it that way too.
> Good luck you will figure out why you want to challenge her.
Thank you mucho!
Posted by JayMac on November 1, 2008, at 15:43:58
In reply to Re: Is this an example of a dual relationship?, posted by JayMac on November 1, 2008, at 15:35:08
Thank you all, please let me know if you see anything else that I brushed over of haven't explored. I really want to get through this.
I sent her a long email last night. And a short one this morning basically apologizing for the voiemails and long a** email. I didn't want her to feel bad. I know I'm protecting her!!! Gosh........I don't know if I can stop that.
I called her and left 3 voicemails, totaling like 10 minutes of me complaing and almost crying at the end. I pretty much told her about all that's been slowly building in me.
So yeah..............thus is psychoanalysis. The "anal" part of that word (and part of me) is getting me to re-think and evaluate everything.
Posted by Daisym on November 1, 2008, at 18:05:58
In reply to Re: Is this an example of a dual relationship? » rskontos, posted by JayMac on November 1, 2008, at 15:38:37
Jay,
What you are describing is classic insecure attachment behavior. Please don't read that as "easy" or that I'm in anyway minimizing your feelings. Being insecurely attached is HUGELY painful. I think more so because we can see what we are doing, and we want desperately to feel really good about being attached but all these hostile, angry feelings creep in. They are sort of like our built in warning system - but they also come from a place that wants to say to your therapist, "how could you let me love you? It is so dangerous to love/care for someone. Plus, I can't REALLY have you - so this is completely unfair." I think we test the attachment over and over again, in a bunch of ways until the therapist truly becomes an internalized object.
You should also know (sorry) that the more you bond with your therapist, the more grief and anger you will feel about not having had this (if this is the case) with an "other" previous to this. It is as if within the security of this relationship you are now free to feel all those warded off feelings. And the fact that they come up directed to the person you are currently closes to, just stinks.
As far as being intellectual with her, for me, it wasn't competition as much as it was fear that he would say, "if you know so much, why are you still such a mess." But my therapist once said to me, "I know I have to appeal to your head as much as your heart as we do this work. You want to understand what we are doing, and why before you will relax into the feelings even a little bit." I know for me, at least at the beginning of therapy, I didn't want to be too much trouble for him, so I was trying to find ways to "cure" myself. It took years for me to believe that it was indeed the relationship that was helping. I needed a witness, a mother, a father, a guardian, a champion, a teacher and a mirror, at various times and in various ways. (Don't you feel sorry for my therapist? I'm a bit much.)
It sounds like your therapist is totally open to talking about all of this stuff. But just know that it is what is being said underneath the words that provides the security and relief.
Hang in there.
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