![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sassyfrancesca on October 29, 2008, at 8:27:53
In a nutshell, I occasionally e-mail my t (for the past 4 years)...Last night he told me he didn't want me to anymore, because "others read his e-mail." I asked who "others" were....he said...his wife, because she does the bills online, and he has "no secrets."
That is delusion (LOL)....he has a ton of secrets with his behavior with me....but I won't go there now.
I told him that being alone (after 31 years of abuse) is right next to death. He wanted to know my secret of coping with that; I told him...I simply breathe.
I sat there in pain, sadness and anger. I needed to tell him how that felt, but couldn't.
I will tell him next week; I have learned in life to have no expectations that my needs will be met (never feeling sorry for myself), and that he just affirmed it again......
He told me that he knew my e-mails were a way to stay connected, etc.......I think that was insensitive and cruel, and I intend to tell him.
In a few months I will have to tell him I cannot pay him anymore; ain't life fun??!!
Love, Sassy
P.S. Just needed to vent, and thank you for listening.
Posted by raisinb on October 29, 2008, at 10:42:01
In reply to Very Painful- T Told me Not to E-mail Him Anymore, posted by sassyfrancesca on October 29, 2008, at 8:27:53
I'm so sorry you are hurting. It is difficult to have something important to you yanked away like that.
There's something incredibly inappropriate not about the emails, but about the way he told you he wanted them to end. He entangled you, your communications, and his relationship with his wife. I can't quite get my head around it, but it seems like many boundaries have been broken.
Posted by sassyfrancesca on October 29, 2008, at 10:54:45
In reply to Re: Very Painful- T Told me Not to E-mail Him Anym » sassyfrancesca, posted by raisinb on October 29, 2008, at 10:42:01
> I'm so sorry you are hurting. It is difficult to have something important to you yanked away like that.
Thank you (raisinb), sweetie!
>
> There's something incredibly inappropriate not about the emails, but about the way he told you he wanted them to end.Yes...
He entangled you, your communications, and his relationship with his wife.
Yes, I don't know why it was necessary to bring the wife into it, etc.
I can't quite get my head around it, but it seems like many boundaries have been broken.
and that is an UNderstatement!
maybe I will write (another) book called Broken Boundaries!
Hugs and thanks, Sassy
Posted by lucie lu on October 29, 2008, at 11:30:23
In reply to Very Painful- T Told me Not to E-mail Him Anymore, posted by sassyfrancesca on October 29, 2008, at 8:27:53
didn't want me to anymore, because "others read his e-mail." I asked who "others" were....he said...his wife, because she does the bills online, and he has "no secrets."
Oh, Sassy, I am so sorry that you have to go through this, and I second raisin's post. But one thing particularly stands out for me - among this man's other boundary issues - is that he thinks it's reasonable that "others read his e-mail" (!) And "no secrets"??!! What ever happened to confidentiality?????!!!!! No matter what the relationship may have ended up being, *you are still his client*. And like any other professional, be it doctor, pastor, lawyer, etc., he is ethically, morally and professionally bound to confidentiality. The professional obligation is absolute and there is no "except for my wife" or "except for office staff" etc. Puh-leeze! It is interesting that he apparently feels that having already breached boundaries with you lets him off the hook for any and all professional obligations towards you. I'm sorry to say this, Sassy, but IMO this man takes advantage of your abuse history and vulnerability. Maybe some of what he has done with you in the past has been part of a well-intended but extremely misguided attempt to help you and care for you but if so I think he has bungled it beyond belief. And what about the obligation to "do no harm?" How can he possibly see this latest action in the context of doing you, his client, no harm??
I'm really sorry to say this because I know how much he means to you and how much you are hurting. I hope that somehow, someday, you will be in a secure enough place emotionally that you can report this guy - he has no sense of professional ethics whatsoever and should not be practicing anything with anyone.
Even now, I feel like I'm letting you down because I am so infuriated with this man and I'm venting that, when you need to vent your own feelings and get support from us. I guess it just makes me so angry to see that you would accept that you are not even worthy of email confidentiality, perhaps the most basic of rights we as clients are entitled to from the people who are charged with our care.
(((((((((((Sassy))))))))))))
Love, Lucie
Posted by sassyfrancesca on October 29, 2008, at 12:24:41
In reply to Re: Very Painful- T Told me Not to E-mail Him Anymore » sassyfrancesca, posted by lucie lu on October 29, 2008, at 11:30:23
> didn't want me to anymore, because "others read his e-mail." I asked who "others" were....he said...his wife, because she does the bills online, and he has "no secrets."
>
> Oh, Sassy, I am so sorry that you have to go through this, and I second raisin's post.Thankyou,sweetie!
But one thing particularly stands out for me - among this man's other boundary issues - is that he thinks it's reasonable that "others read his e-mail" (!) And "no secrets"??!! What ever happened to confidentiality?????!!!!!
I never thought about it that but you are right! Although I know he has an e-mail, that is just for clinical stuff.....so maybe this is his personal e-mail, but still....I sure wouldn't want anyone reading my mail.
t No matter what the relationship may have ended up being, *you are still his client*. And like any other professional, be it doctor, pastor, lawyer, etc., he is ethically, morally and professionally bound to confidentiality.
Oh, is very big on confidentiality; won't even say hello to me if he sees me (In Hawaii at the convention, he saw me 5 times and didn't speak)
BUT...he spent time looking for me at the dance, and would have danced with me??? I guess it would have been okay, as long as he didn't speak? Is that weird or what!!??
The professional obligation is absolute and there is no "except for my wife" or "except for office staff" etc. Puh-leeze! It is interesting that he apparently feels that having already breached boundaries with you lets him off the hook for any and all professional obligations towards you. I'm sorry to say this, Sassy, but IMO this man takes advantage of your abuse history and vulnerability. Maybe some of what he has done with you in the past has been part of a well-intended but extremely misguided attempt to help you and care for you but if so I think he has bungled
Wow, "bungled" what a perfect description!
it beyond belief. And what about the obligation to "do no harm?" How can he possibly see this latest action in the context of doing you, his client, no harm??
I wrote him a metaphorical message (giving it to him next week): in that I am "wearing" a thin sweater and occasionally I get a brief respite, and he ripped it right off of me.
First he takes away my hug (we have been back and forth over the years with that one, and then changes me day, which isn't convenient, and now the e-mail thing.....
>
> I'm really sorry to say this because I know how much he means to you and how much you are hurting. I hope that somehow, someday, you will be in a secure enough place emotionally that you can report this guy - he has no sense of professional ethics whatsoever and should not be practicing anything with anyone.
>
> Even now, I feel like I'm letting you downYou are not letting me down, I value your opinion and love you for stating the truth as you see it.
because I am so infuriated (thankyou!)
with this man and I'm venting that, when you need to vent your own feelings and get support from us.
The support is great!
I guess it just makes me so angry to see that you would accept that you are not even worthy of email confidentiality, perhaps the most basic of rights we as clients are entitled to from the people who are charged with our care.
You know (like I said) I never thought of it like that at the time, but YES!!
I don't care how much you "don;t have any secrets" or are trusting; why would you want people reading your mail? I wonder if wifey-poo opens his snail mail; sheesh...
>
> (((((((((((Sassy))))))))))))
>
> Love, Lucie((((Lucie))))) Thank you sweetie! It is JUST what I needed to hear; now I have to wait a whole week to let him "have" it.
Oh, wait...why don't I just E-MAIL him, LOL.LOL!!
Posted by Phillipa on October 29, 2008, at 13:09:23
In reply to Re: Very Painful- T Told me Not to E-mail Him Anym, posted by sassyfrancesca on October 29, 2008, at 12:24:41
Sassy not to offend three things stood out. l. not acknowleging you publically at the convention, 2. no more hugs, 3. the email. Sounds a bit like he wanted his wife to see it. Do you think he wants to end it. I agree with lucie lu. Love Phillipa sorry it must hurt.
Posted by sassyfrancesca on October 29, 2008, at 13:16:20
In reply to Re: Very Painful- T Told me Not to E-mail Him Anym » sassyfrancesca, posted by Phillipa on October 29, 2008, at 13:09:23
> ((Phillipa))
Sassy not to offend three things stood out. l. not acknowleging you publically at the convention,
He wouldn't acknowledge me anywhere unless I acknowledged him 1st; he says i have a right to privacy; guess it is one of the t rules
e 2. no more hugs,
He's done the no hug thing before; it goes back and forth
3. the email.
Now that I think of it it did the e-mail bit quite awhile ago (no e-mails unless they are therapeutic stuff), but I ignored it and wrote what I wanted to LOL, LOL
Sounds a bit like he wanted his wife to see it. I don't know why he would though.
Do you think he wants to end it.
No; he is on one of his "professional" kicks again..... I agree with lucie lu. Love Phillipa sorry it must hurt.
Thankyou, dear Phillipa!
Love, Sassy
Posted by muffled on October 29, 2008, at 15:03:32
In reply to Re: Very Painful- T Told me Not to E-mail Him Anym » Phillipa, posted by sassyfrancesca on October 29, 2008, at 13:16:20
hope you can find a new T.
this one may have been helpful at one time but the season is over
time to find new t
it hard to find new t but then you do and it not so bad
then after awhile you get back to actually 'doing therapy' insteada getting mired in the interpersonal buildup
that stuff can get in the way of growth
t's are just people is all
sure, they got some training and experience, but they just people sames us clients
this must be hard to get away from sassy
you are so sweet
hope you do OK
Muffled
Posted by sassyfrancesca on October 29, 2008, at 15:23:37
In reply to Re: Very Painful- T Told me Not to E-mail Him Anym, posted by muffled on October 29, 2008, at 15:03:32
(((Muffled))): Thank you so much. YOU are so sweet....Love and hugs, Sassy
Posted by stellabystarlight on October 29, 2008, at 18:03:10
In reply to Very Painful- T Told me Not to E-mail Him Anymore, posted by sassyfrancesca on October 29, 2008, at 8:27:53
Sassy,
I know how much he means to you and I don't want to hurt your feelings in any way, but maybe it's best that this relationship comes to an end.
I can't add much more to what Lucie's said. I'm sorry about the latest pain he's inflicted on you.
Stellabystarlight
Posted by healing928 on October 29, 2008, at 20:01:08
In reply to Very Painful- T Told me Not to E-mail Him Anymore, posted by sassyfrancesca on October 29, 2008, at 8:27:53
Sassy,
I agree what the others have stated, and I guess I have gotten frustrated in the past because you allow such treatment from a soc called professional. I am truly sorry your are in pain.
Therapists who allow email from clients should make certain that is remains confidential. There is always a risk, but having a wife snoop through clients emails is ridiculous. I hope things get better for you.
Healing
Posted by happyflower on October 29, 2008, at 21:30:19
In reply to Re: Very Painful- T Told me Not to E-mail Him Anymore, posted by healing928 on October 29, 2008, at 20:01:08
(((((Sassy)))) I am sorry he is hurting you again. I think something must be up or his wife is suspecting what he is up to because she wanted the day your appointment was on, to be time for her, and now she is looking at his email.
Now what I don't get is that my husband and I both have several email accounts, business, personal, school, so I don't see why he can't have one for his professional use. And while usually there shouldn't be no secrets between wife and husband, there are secrets if you are a therapist and have clients, for the clients sake.
But he could also be setting up boundaries again if you are using the emails other than what he agreed to in the beginning.
This does hurt, especially if he allowed you to do this before, but he is doing what he should have been doing in the first place. So I don't know what to say, because I know you love him, but he is still your T.
I know how hurt I was with my first T's changing boundaries, so I know how it feels. But I also hope he either decides to be your real T (which after all the stuff that has happened, I doubt that can happen) or be with you personally.
I just don't like that you are hurting, it isn't fair to you that he did this.
Why haven't you told him that you won't have any money to pay him soon in the future? He needs to know this because if you do need to terminate, he needs to know to help you with this, that is his job as a T. It won't be right to spring this on him at the last minute especially since you have been seeing him a long time, and you have known for quite awhile that you won't have the money to pay him.
Posted by happyflower on October 29, 2008, at 21:47:08
In reply to Re: Very Painful- T Told me Not to E-mail Him Anymore » healing928, posted by happyflower on October 29, 2008, at 21:30:19
Posted by LadyBug on October 29, 2008, at 22:35:20
In reply to Very Painful- T Told me Not to E-mail Him Anymore, posted by sassyfrancesca on October 29, 2008, at 8:27:53
I agree with what everyone has posted here!!!
He is abusing you. You've given him your heart, he's taken it and messed with your head in doing so. What would you tell someone else if they were in your shoes? To keep putting up with it just because they are in love with him? You'd give the same advice everyone here is giving you. This is so sad for you. You deserve better. You are hanging on to "false" hope.I guess when we "get sick and tired" of being "sick and tired" of how other people treat us we change what we will and won't accept in their behavior.
Changing boundaries is painful especially when it is something that was allowed for a long time and now it's not ok. I know how it feels, I've been through it a few times with my T. They have too much control and power. I hope you bring up the money issue with him in enough time to process it with him before you can't pay him. Will he love you enough to let you visit him for free? Oh, we wish.
Therapy is one hard job!!!Good luck Sassy. I'm mad at your T too!
Posted by Wittgensteinz on October 30, 2008, at 4:49:14
In reply to Very Painful- T Told me Not to E-mail Him Anymore, posted by sassyfrancesca on October 29, 2008, at 8:27:53
Sassy,
I think it has all been said but I want to reiterate your right (legal and ethical right) to confidentiality. It's not about your T being totally 'transparent' with his wife (and you know that is a laughable matter in any case) - his clients certainly shouldn't be totally transparent to his wife! You and him have a contract of confidentiality - he is legally and ethically obliged to keep what is said between you and him (and what is exchanged between you and him via phone/e-mail) exactly that - between you and him alone. You have the right to talk to whoever you wish, that's your right as a patient/client.
The other matter of bringing his wife into this - it seems inappropriate and perhaps with some motive on his part. Is he trying to set you up against his wife? She is the gate-keeper stopping you from 'coming in' - stopping you sending e-mails - she is your T's nosy parent, interfering in your business...?
I don't understand his reasoning - it seems he's pushing you away, likely because of his own problems dealing with his loving feelings for you. It's such a pity you are the one who has to suffer because of his incapabilities.
I would ask, if you can, about where your confidentiality stands in all of this. Are your sessions with him confidential and why has he compromised your privacy in this way. Also perhaps ask him why he felt the need to bring his wife into the room in this way. I think this is a cover story and a bad one at that - there's a lot more going on here it seems. I'm really sorry you have had this door closed on you - it's another form of support taken away and it was unfair of him to have done this without giving you the real reason.
Take care Sassy - this must be hard.
Witti
Posted by Wittgensteinz on October 30, 2008, at 4:56:07
In reply to Re: Very Painful- T Told me Not to E-mail Him Anym » sassyfrancesca, posted by Wittgensteinz on October 30, 2008, at 4:49:14
Just as an appendix to my post, this question of only sending him e-mails about 'therapeutic matters' seems bizarre to me. Surely by definition as a client whatever you have to say to him (or write in a mail) is 'grist for the mill' - and is of your therapy.
Now, if he has taken the relationship out of the domain of therapy, that was his action and his mistake. It is only possible for the therapist to start being 'untherapeutic' and not the client! e.g. if client is 'seductive' the client is still working within the rules of therapy - it is up to the therapist to interpret why the client feels a need to seduce, what are the underlying reasons - now if the therapy falls to the temptation of his seductive client, then he is the one being untherapeutic.
I think you were absolutely right to continue after the first time to write whatever you wanted in your mails. If he'd said "only mail in emergencies" then that's something different but as far as only mailing about therapeutic matters, then by definition surely you could write whatever you felt like.
Witti
Posted by sassyfrancesca on October 30, 2008, at 7:16:18
In reply to Re: Very Painful- T Told me Not to E-mail Him Anymore » sassyfrancesca, posted by stellabystarlight on October 29, 2008, at 18:03:10
(((Stella)): Thank you, sweetie.
Hugs, Sassy
Posted by sassyfrancesca on October 30, 2008, at 7:17:23
In reply to Re: Very Painful- T Told me Not to E-mail Him Anymore, posted by healing928 on October 29, 2008, at 20:01:08
(((Healing))): Thank you so much. I intend to ask him why he would let ANYone read his mail.
Hugs, Sassy
Posted by sassyfrancesca on October 30, 2008, at 7:26:11
In reply to Re: Very Painful- T Told me Not to E-mail Him Anymore » healing928, posted by happyflower on October 29, 2008, at 21:30:19
(((Twin))): Thank you, sweetie.....yes, he's allowed me to e-mail him for years......he is so big on confidentiality, that I am surprised he doesn't mind the wife reading his mail. Supposedly, he has a separate e-mail for clinical stuff (I think): I intend to tell him that that was a rejection.
This, after he told me that he knows e-mail is a way for me to stay connected. I told him that being alone is right next to.....death......and then he takes something else away.
I haven't told him about the money situation, because whether I tell him now or when there is no more money, makes no difference in what will happen; I have been hanging on, hoping I'd get another job, etc. but that is another story.
Hugs and Love,
Sassy-Twin (crazy, LOL)
Posted by sassyfrancesca on October 30, 2008, at 7:31:08
In reply to Re: Very Painful- T Told me Not to E-mail Him Anymore » sassyfrancesca, posted by LadyBug on October 29, 2008, at 22:35:20
(((Ladybug)): You are such a sweetie...Yes, I know what I would advise someone, but when love enters the picture, it is difficult to leave....especially when one is all alone.
Yes, we will see what happens in a few months, when my money-tree is empty, LOL, LOL
Thank you for being angry at him....it helps more than you can know!
Love n hugs, sweet Ladybug
Sassy
Posted by sassyfrancesca on October 30, 2008, at 7:40:44
In reply to Re: Very Painful- T Told me Not to E-mail Him Anym » sassyfrancesca, posted by Wittgensteinz on October 30, 2008, at 4:49:14
> Sassy,
>
> I think it has all been said but I want to reiterate your right (legal and ethical right) to confidentiality.Absolutely, and you hit the nail right on the head in all you have said...((((Witti))).
It's not about your T being totally 'transparent' with his wife (and you know that is a laughable matter in any case)
Wow, is that true or not!?
He says he has "no secrets"---that is a delusion, unless he tells his wife all of the UNprofessional behavior he has had with me.....verbally AND physically; what a crock.
- his clients certainly shouldn't be totally transparent to his wife! Absolutely!
You and him have a contract of confidentiality - he is legally and ethically obliged to keep what is said between you and him (and what is exchanged between you and him via phone/e-mail) exactly that - between you and him alone.
YES, and he is so adamant about confidentiality (He wouldn't even speak to me in Hawaii, even tho he saw me 5 times/but he WOULD have danced with me if he had seen me at the dance...now how weird is that!?
You have the right to talk to whoever you wish, that's your right as a patient/client. Exactly, and I told him if I felt like mailing him, I would!
>
> The other matter of bringing his wife into this - it seems inappropriate and perhaps with some motive on his part. Yes, i am wondering.Is he trying to set you up against his wife? She is the gate-keeper stopping you from 'coming in' - stopping you sending e-mails - she is your T's nosy parent, interfering in your business...?
Never thought of it like that, but ANYthing is possible.
>
> I don't understand his reasoning - it seems he's pushing you away, likely because of his own problems dealing with his loving feelings for you.Yes, I mean as we were walking out the door, he makes the comment (totally out of the blue): "You might kiss me." I wonder if he went home and told his wife about that! So much for secrets, eh?
It's such a pity you are the one who has to suffer because of his incapabilities. Exactly.
>
> I would ask, if you can, about where your confidentiality stands in all of this.I plan to.
Are your sessions with him confidential and why has he compromised your privacy in this way. Also perhaps ask him why he felt the need to bring his wife into the room in this way.
Well, I asked him WHO read his e-mails....but I still don't want to hear about his wife.
I think this is a cover story and a bad one at that - there's a lot more going on here it seems.
I think you are right on!
I'm really sorry you have had this door closed on you - I will still e-mail him, and I told him so, LOL, LOL
it's another form of support taken away and it was unfair of him to have done this without giving you the real reason.
Yes, first he took away my hug (then 2 weeks ago pulls me on top of him while in his chair)....it's amazing; I keep the boundaries) then the day that was convenient for me (Sunday), because his "family" wanted him home more, then the e-mail.....
>
> Take care Sassy - this must be hard.
Thankyou, ((((Witti)))....your support and common sense means the world to me.I mean I've lived a lifetime of rejection; did I really need more? I intend to let him have it.
Hugs and Love, Sassy
>
> Witti
Posted by sassyfrancesca on October 30, 2008, at 7:45:15
In reply to One more thought..., posted by Wittgensteinz on October 30, 2008, at 4:56:07
> (((Witti)))
Just as an appendix to my post, this question of only sending him e-mails about 'therapeutic matters' seems bizarre to me.
It is.
Surely by definition as a client whatever you have to say to him (or write in a mail) is 'grist for the mill' - and is of your therapy.
Exactly; I write what I am feeling, or what is going on in my life.
>
> Now, if he has taken the relationship out of the domain of therapy, that was his action and his mistake.Yup, he sexualized our relationship years ago. The miracle is not that I haven't acted on my feelings, but that I haven't done so, even tho he has led me on big time.
It is only possible for the therapist to start being 'untherapeutic' and not the client! e.g. if client is 'seductive' the client is still working within the rules of therapy - it is up to the therapist to interpret why the client feels a need to seduce, what are the underlying reasons
As an article I read stated.....that this love stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum; it is usually in direct relation to the t overtly or covertly encouraging the client, and that is what he has done.
- now if the therapy falls to the temptation of his seductive client, then he is the one being untherapeutic.
>
> I think you were absolutely right to continue after the first time to write whatever you wanted in your mails. If he'd said "only mail in emergencies" then that's something different but as far as only mailing about therapeutic matters, then by definition surely you could write whatever you felt like.Yes, and I did and will!
Thankyou, (((Witti))): You are dead-on about all of it.
Love, Sassy
>
> Witti
Posted by Kath on November 1, 2008, at 20:37:25
In reply to Very Painful- T Told me Not to E-mail Him Anymore, posted by sassyfrancesca on October 29, 2008, at 8:27:53
Posted by weatherthestorm on November 7, 2008, at 18:39:10
In reply to Very Painful- T Told me Not to E-mail Him Anymore, posted by sassyfrancesca on October 29, 2008, at 8:27:53
Sassy,
I have been following your story for a little while. I am new to this board. I know how much it hurts when therapists change their boundaries. I have been there myself and it is extremely painful. I wish you only the best.
Weatherthestorm
Posted by Kath on November 7, 2008, at 19:09:23
In reply to Re: One more thought... » Wittgensteinz, posted by sassyfrancesca on October 30, 2008, at 7:45:15
> > I think you were absolutely right to continue after the first time to write whatever you wanted in your mails. If he'd said "only mail in emergencies" then that's something different but as far as only mailing about therapeutic matters, then by definition surely you could write whatever you felt like.
>
> Yes, and I did and will!
>
> Thankyou, (((Witti))): You are dead-on about all of it.
>
> Love, Sassy~ ~ ~ Good for you Sassy - you are one STRONG lady & I admire you bigtime.
I'm wondering how you're doing.
luv, Kath
PS - haven't checked Psych Board; perhaps you've posted. Will check K
This is the end of the thread.
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