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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on May 20, 2008, at 12:21:08
And I missed it! I wasn't even paying attention.
My therapist now has over 100,000 (dollars) on him for 925 fifty minute hours.
That's less than half the time I'd spend with my coworkers in one year if I worked full time.
It's bringing up some complex feelings, and I'm surprised. I've known it was coming for some time. And I was planning to mark the exact rollover check. Maybe drawing a little diagram in the memo line. I was thinking of it lightheartedly.
But now it's happened, I'm not sure what I feel. The clearest feeling is a bruised noggin from bumping head on into one of those pesky boundaries. That if I ran out of money, I'd never see him again. That I pay to see him. But he wouldn't see me unless I paid him. Ouch. I know it, but reaching that milestone has brought it up.
But that's not all. I just can't pin down the other feelings. It isn't anything as simple as horror or regret about the money. It's something about what it means.
He was pretty cool about it. He seemed embarrassed when I mentioned it, and he acknowledged that money is an uncomfortable issue for him. But he gamely asked if I had any feelings about the milestone, and I did my best to answer. Difficult, since I don't really know what they are. At one point he was clearly blushing. :)
It's nice to know there are things he's embarrassed about too. He rarely seems embarrassed.
In fact, we talked about my reluctance to talk about the dream I had about him, and he clearly steeled himself to hear about a sexually charged dream. But it was a dream I've had at least once before that he was having a baby (not him personally of course, I assume his wife). When I asked, he said no, he wasn't. He said he wasn't sure what the dream meant. It doesn't seem like a big mystery to me. Dreaming my therapist/mommy had a baby?
Sigh. I think I was reluctant to tell him because I was afraid of bumping into another barrier. Silly. I told him the last time, and I've told him far worse. But I guess I'm still feeling anxious not to be intrusive.
Posted by Dinah on May 20, 2008, at 12:21:45
In reply to The ticker rolled over., posted by Dinah on May 20, 2008, at 12:21:08
Posted by Dinah on May 20, 2008, at 12:22:08
In reply to The ticker rolled over., posted by Dinah on May 20, 2008, at 12:21:08
Posted by Annierose on May 20, 2008, at 13:48:38
In reply to The ticker rolled over., posted by Dinah on May 20, 2008, at 12:21:08
Money plays an important part in your therapy. You think about it often and mention it here whenever there is a rupture in your relationship. Money means something to you (well, I guess it does to everyone) ... money takes on a life of its own in your therapy.
I couldn't even guess how much money I have paid to my therapist. It holds a role but a minor one. I know I benefit from 3x therapy, I know it's expensive, I know she needs to get paid to do her job, just like I enjoyed getting paid to do mine. It's part of the life cycle ... or rather ... money cycle.
I think exploring the money issue with your therapist is important ... worth the $$$$. What I'm trying to say, it's holds some emotional weight.
There's something there ...
Posted by Annierose on May 20, 2008, at 13:51:22
In reply to The ticker rolled over., posted by Dinah on May 20, 2008, at 12:21:08
If it makes you feel any better ... I think that ticker ticked a few years ago for me.
Posted by Midnightblue on May 20, 2008, at 15:27:23
In reply to The ticker rolled over., posted by Dinah on May 20, 2008, at 12:21:08
Thinking of you!
MidnightBlue
Posted by Dinah on May 20, 2008, at 16:43:51
In reply to Re: The ticker rolled over. » Dinah, posted by Annierose on May 20, 2008, at 13:48:38
I know I have issues with money in general, around shame. I don't earn as much of it as I could if I tried. And I spend way more of it than I should. I'm always returning things that I bought impulsively. I buy too much, like my mom. I hate anything that links my mom and me.
I don't think the issues with my therapist have to do with my general money issues. But I think you're on to something. Because of the recent rupture and because boundaries were involved in that too, I may be more sensitive to the topic than I would be otherwise. After all, I was planning to celebrate, in a light hearted way.
I think the nature of therapy lends itself well to cynicism about money. All the constant comments from others about therapists who hook you in and bleed you dry, or rent a friends. It's impossible to avoid the thought. Moreover I know how much my therapist likes money and the things it buys. So thoughts of my income stream do come to mind. How can it not? When you look at the facts and circumstances, without emotional overlay, it seems rather damning.
Over time, I've come to believe that he really does care for me as a person - maybe even loves me in a therapist appropriate way. And that's like believing the prostitute really does think you're great in bed. At least it is for me. But that's constantly balanced by the fact that if I can't pay him, I'll never see him or hear from him again.
I guess shame isn't totally out of the picture, either. I know I work in large part to afford therapy. And while I work for and pay for my therapy myself, I know the cost has an effect on my family.
It's a tough topic, in therapy.
And since he was blushing, I'm guessing it wasn't easy for him either.
But... nothing can be done about it. I don't know how much it's worth talking about. There is literally nothing he can do or say that will totally remove that cynical voice for any length of time.
Posted by Dinah on May 20, 2008, at 16:45:45
In reply to Re: The ticker rolled over. » Dinah, posted by Midnightblue on May 20, 2008, at 15:27:23
I'll be ok. I'll right myself like one of those clown balloons that kids knock over and they bounce back up.
And on the positive side, I lost a pound! May not sound like much. But it's something.
I hope you're doing ok?
Posted by Dinah on May 20, 2008, at 20:30:39
In reply to Re: The ticker rolled over. » Annierose, posted by Dinah on May 20, 2008, at 16:43:51
To realize there really is nothing he can say or do to change my skepticism?
I've always had a push pull struggle in my brain about him. Emotional me adores him, while rational me whispers ugly things. Usually in present time. Sometimes rational me get shut up for a while, but never for long.
He understands that. He really does. He's ok with rational me just not hating him. He's not really ok with the sabotaging. But the feelings he's ok with. I think...
He's different with rational me than with emotional me.
Posted by Daisym on May 21, 2008, at 0:33:40
In reply to Is it awful of me?, posted by Dinah on May 20, 2008, at 20:30:39
I don't think so. I think you are unflinching in your honesty about your feelings.
But it might be worth thinking about self-worth. I can't help but wonder if somewhere in your unconscious is the thought, "Am I worth that much money?" - or what I think often, "who am I to have spent so much money on my self?" I think AnnieRose is right - you might want to explore this a bit and figure out what the shame is and why it lingers after so many years. I do understand the society frowns on long-term therapy. And I also understand how awful it feels to have such strong feelings for someone that you have to pay to stay in your life. But it is the nature of the beast - I guess the good with the bad.
I try to think of the money I spend on therapy kind of like I do when I buy the food I like instead of the stuff that is cheapest. I could eat for a lot less but I don't choose to. The investment of money in food, like the investment of money in therapy, keeps me healthy and happy.
And my clicker stands at 5 years next week and over 700 sessions - 703 I think. But who's counting?
Posted by rskontos on May 21, 2008, at 8:44:31
In reply to Re: Is it awful of me? » Dinah, posted by Daisym on May 21, 2008, at 0:33:40
Dinah,
you know you could think of it as a hobby too. I mean think of all the vices you could have that cost money too. So many people spend money on things that have little value in the long run. At least what you do has significant value for you in the long run. I think I tend to only think about the money aspect if I don't think I am doing well enough in something. Like ok on top of everything look at how much money you are wasted too? Do you do that too. And that is something I think we have to stop if you do that too. Because in the long we are worth every penny. Now that is a hard sell for me too but we are still worth it.
I agree with Daisym and annierose. Somehow you and you are certainly not alone in this, equate money with something deep down inside, self worth, esteem something. Why else do you have the ticker tape going but that is still ok too. My h is an economist and he too likes to keep up with how much he spends on varies things. If it bothers you too much explore it, if not say ok this is what I do instead of golf.
rsk
Posted by Dinah on May 21, 2008, at 10:06:12
In reply to Re: Is it awful of me?, posted by rskontos on May 21, 2008, at 8:44:31
Ahhh, keeping the records.
Well I keep records of all my spending, but admittedly not usually cumulative.
I started a spreadsheet back when I first started therapy for tax/medical reimbursement purposes. And as is often the case with my spreadsheets, I don't start a new spreadsheet with each year, I just add a new page. I'm not sure if I always had the cumulative totals or if I added that later. But it's been a while. And each year I copy over the format, so the cumulative totals are there automatically. Total dollar, total visits. Along with many not terribly useful details that I added at one point or another. We're talking over fifteen years of records, since I got married.
For some reason, I always kept therapy separate from other medical bills. And adjunct therapy was always kept with other medical bills. I don't think there was any deep reason for that other than that it was a regular expense, so I kept it separate, like prescriptions. There wouldn't have been any reason when I started it, since therapy wasn't really emotionally charged at the time. Hmmm... I did have some trouble with the reimbursement for therapy at one point, and probably needed to seggregate it to talk about it to the powers that be. Then I got a prescription for it from an MD.
I didn't have to go digging for the information. It was just there. And it was just entertaining until it actually happened. Another milestone like an anniversary. A chance to stop and reflect. I think Annierose was right in that it matters more than it ordinarily would because of recent circumstances. And possibly because I *have* been tearful and depressed in the morning lately. I felt better later in the day.
We're comfortable in a middle class sort of way. We don't have to worry about groceries but probably stop to think if we eat out too often. We hope that our cars last ten years (although mine rarely make it). My clothes are inexpensive and I wear them until they literally rub bare. Now that probably is related to my feelings about myself. I see no real reason to spend any money adorning this really awful body. I'm similarly horrified at my salon costs, but it's important for me to keep my hair the color I expect it to be. I have a few areas where I spend too much. I love gadgets, I have a couple of hobbies, some expensive, and I have dogs that require a lot of upkeep. Certainly I know that while my husband never complains, he isn't happy about my spending so much on therapy. Even though nearly half of it is covered by medical reimbursement. He'd like to see me quit my job at least as much as I do. But that's impossible with therapy.
I guess that's a long way to say that despite the fact that I'm an admitted spendthrift, it's not an easy expenditure, or lightly taken.
Posted by Dinah on May 21, 2008, at 10:41:10
In reply to Re: Is it awful of me? » Dinah, posted by Daisym on May 21, 2008, at 0:33:40
You're far more philosophical about it than I am.
There's that horrible cynical nagging voice in my head. And then there's the part of me that acknowledges the cash part but prefers to partially ignore it, yet can't help but be swayed by the cynic in me.
I don't know that it's an issue of self esteem or self worth. I have pockets of that, relating to my appearance or my social worthiness. But I don't think that's really it. When I was in really bad shape I didn't think twice about the money. And I do realize that therapy helps keep me out of really bad shape.
I feel so horrible reiterating this, because it just isn't socially acceptable. But my self esteem is really pretty high, in most areas. And in my basic self worth. Yes, I have been known to remove myself from photos in a rather extreme sort of way. Definite self loathing there. But that's all related to body (and face) image, and social acceptability.
I never think I'm undeserving of my husband or son, except in the most theoretical sort of way. And they're worth way more than the money.
I'm ashamed because my behavior with money doesn't live up to the high standards I have for myself. Standards that are built from my values and my respect for myself as someone who can and should live up to those values.
Sigh. I hate saying these things aloud. Internally they just sound like self respect. But when I say them aloud, they sound horrible. God help me, I like myself. I have many fine and useful qualities. I have areas where I could definitely stand improvement. I try to work on those, but often fall short. That's the human condition, which is of course no excuse. But I can keep trying. It's just this body I hate. This body and this face. And I hate my inability to fit in with others in social settings. I hate being weird, but only when I'm with others. But otherwise I'm disgustingly fine with myself, and pride is one of the sins I need to keep working on.
I do want him to care for me for who I am. And he does. I know the limits of that caring, and those limits hurt when I run into them. It's lopsided. I feel like there is no limit to my caring about him. How can that not hurt?
Posted by Dinah on May 21, 2008, at 11:12:18
In reply to Re: Is it awful of me? » Daisym, posted by Dinah on May 21, 2008, at 10:41:10
I'm really something.
All this time I've wanted my therapist to care about me as a person. I've wanted to be his Jessica.
And in the last year or so he's been really clear that he does care about me very much (in a therapist appropriate way). That I mean something to him. That I am important to him. That I am very definitely his Jessica. And he's expressed it in such a way that I truly believe it.
And still I'm not happy. I'm still upset about the imbalance in the relationship. It's not the money. I want him to have the money. It's what the money means. It's knowing that he is going to hurt me, unless I'm lucky enough to predecease his leaving me. Knowing that even though he cares about me a whole lot, it's limited to the caring a therapist has for a client. His real life can and will take him away because that's what's important to him. Look around this board. It may not happen right away, but no matter how caring and loving a therapist is, their real life intrudes and they hurt their client. He is going to hurt me. He is going to abandon and reject me. Not because of me perhaps, but because of him. The loss will be the same.
Friends may move away, but you always have the bond of fondness, and the delusion that you'll keep in touch. And I feel bad even then, when friends move away.
One day maybe in the short term or maybe years from now, I'm going to go in therapy and be terminated. I don't want to have that pain.
And I'm going to have that pain because of the money. Because I'm a job. Because people don't build their lives around their jobs. The money equals my termination.
Posted by muffled on May 21, 2008, at 14:52:59
In reply to Re: Is it awful of me? » Daisym, posted by Dinah on May 21, 2008, at 10:41:10
my T gives a sh*t bout me in the sense that she a caring person.
She worked real hard at unconditional acceptance.
She even offered to lower her fee as I was long term.
But now I terminated from her.
It was easier cuz I chose it.
But it kinda niggles at me, I wonder if she 'really' gave a sh*t? And what DOES that MEAN anyways...
Sigh.
Anyhow, she gone now, I got new T.
I'll get over it. Bugs me some from time to time. but it'll get easier.
Ya, the money part DOES suck.
Old T hated the money part.
I think my new T LIKES money LOL! cuz she was sure clear bout it!!! LOL!
Hope you can somehow sort this out Dinah.
M
Posted by raisinb on May 21, 2008, at 16:21:15
In reply to Gack., posted by Dinah on May 21, 2008, at 11:12:18
Dinah, you're right about the imbalance of the relationship. But this sounds like you're being pretty hard on yourself.
At least, I *think* I hear "I'm not important" throughout the post. I may be wrong. But if I'm right you should stop it, because you are.
Posted by rskontos on May 21, 2008, at 17:01:50
In reply to Re: Is it awful of me? » Daisym, posted by Dinah on May 21, 2008, at 10:41:10
Dinah, my philosophy on improving ourselves is that we can only go so far. Because we are human we cannot fix everything that is wrong with ourselves, it just aint gonna happen no matter how many self-improvement books you read or courses you take or how hard you try because we are human. that is my take on it. I try but I don't obsess. Maybe that is why I am thinking I won't get better in therapy. Anyway, I believe there is a certain ineptness in our ability to improve all our faults. And that is that. Just my thoughts. It is why we know we should do stuff but we don't. We just can't be great at all facets of life so how can we correct all our faults either. I think personally if you believe that you are hating your face and your body yet you love yourself I believe you are doing fine by me. Personally I hate that I have gained some weight lately and I can't lose it easily like I usually can. It is driving me crazy.
Now not being socially great in my head doesn't bother me. I have an inner that comes out and plays nice with people. I don't always like it but she comes across as a wonderfully socially adept person and everyone likes her but me. That bothers me, but not that I the real me isn't like that. I prefer to be alone and I am ok with it. It bothers others i think me.
I see that probably at the root of the money thing is that you might wish he, your T, would say that he would like you with or without the money? Maybe then you would feel more valued by him? Is that part of it.
I think we all have behavior with money we are ashamed of. I certainly do. I still feel like your marking the ticker was about him than the money. But I am probably wrong. I often am.
rsk
Posted by rskontos on May 21, 2008, at 17:04:34
In reply to Re: Gack. » Dinah, posted by raisinb on May 21, 2008, at 16:21:15
Maybe the real issue is termination in your brain and money is the pebble that started the avalance falling in the termination direction. I think you are heading someplace. You will get there in due time don't rush it.
rsk
Posted by Dinah on May 21, 2008, at 17:39:50
In reply to Re: Gack. » Dinah, posted by raisinb on May 21, 2008, at 16:21:15
Thank you. :)
I think it's just that I suddenly realized that while I might be scared of being terminated one day, and hurt, I should separate that from the good stuff so that I can enjoy the good stuff and be grateful.
I think it was just an ah-hah moment for me. That I was missing something good by contaminating it with fear.
Not that I'm going to give up the fear. That would be expecting too much of myself. I'm just going to disentangle it a bit.
Posted by Dinah on May 21, 2008, at 17:49:36
In reply to Re: Is it awful of me? » Dinah, posted by rskontos on May 21, 2008, at 17:01:50
You're often right, you know. :)
I think you're right about self improvement. I don't think any of us will ever be finished. But that's no reason to stop trying. lol.
I think you're right that therapy can't make you *all better*, but it can make you some better. Improvement for me wasn't some beautiful breakthrough moment that solved everything. It was more like a bunch of small things adding up to make a "big enough" difference.
Money is a hard issue. No doubt about it. And worse because it brings up my fears of being like my mother. The faults my mother has always bother me worse when I find them in myself than other types of faults do.
If he came to me tomorrow and said, "Dinah, I don't care about the money. You don't have to pay me anymore. Just come by a couple of times a week and we'll talk, maybe go for lunch." I'd be horrified. Absolutely horrified. The money... Oh gosh. The money protects me as much as it benefits him. The money protects me from having any unacceptable demands placed on me. The money gives me a balance of power back and without it he'd have all the power and I'd have none. The money allows me to be starkly intimate with him, while protecting me from intimacy.
Posted by Dinah on May 21, 2008, at 17:52:51
In reply to Re: Is it awful of me?, posted by muffled on May 21, 2008, at 14:52:59
I think I may have sorted it through in my head now. Now I understand more, I can accept more I hope. Because there's nothing to be done about it. What is, is.
But you haven't said much about the change? Do you miss your old therapist horribly? Is the new one better than the one you saw that other time? Do you like her and trust her at least enough to work with her? Can she shed any light on things that your old therapist didn't understand?
Am I asking too many questions? It's only because I care.
Posted by rskontos on May 21, 2008, at 19:32:03
In reply to Re: Is it awful of me? » rskontos, posted by Dinah on May 21, 2008, at 17:49:36
Well that sounds legit. And it makes sense too. No you are right we should continue to get better or at least try but to recognize we might fail at some things, or maybe only get a some improvement.
we might lose a few pounds not get down to some huge number maybe or we might I don't know do better most of the time not all the time.And therapy, it is a hard concept for me to wrap my arms around but I am getting better with it too. I guess it is hard to say I really do need this. I hate needing anything you know.
I prefer I Am strong and I am invincible stance. but it is all untrue so I must go to therapy and try to find a way to make it work. Sigh, and here I thought after my kids were almost on their own I could take things easy.
Well, I think you have now worked through the money thing.
You know Dinah, all in all, I think you are pretty in control of yourself, and seem to know yourself pretty well, and above all, I think you are beginning to like Dinah.
I think that is some measurable progress. And time for another ticker tape moment maybe?
rsk
at least for me, I found this whole thread more and more positive, don't you?
Posted by Dinah on May 21, 2008, at 20:55:23
In reply to Re: Is it awful of me? » Dinah, posted by rskontos on May 21, 2008, at 19:32:03
Yeah, for the most part yeah. It is positive. And I like that with a bit of help I can think these things out. That way I can act with clarity and purpose instead of in automatic and poorly understood reaction.
But I have to confess, I hadn't admitted to myself that I used money to protect myself as well, until now. Or if I ever did, I forgot.
It's a little disconcerting to realize that I do want to hold this person at a distance. That I don't want too much intimacy with him. That's a complete reversal of how I usually think of myself.
Posted by rskontos on May 22, 2008, at 10:03:12
In reply to Re: Is it awful of me? » rskontos, posted by Dinah on May 21, 2008, at 20:55:23
You know though maybe it is a good thing Dinah. In one sense a little protection from the therapuetic relationship isn't bad but maybe this protection is just a reflex from his recent unavailable or possible unavailability down the road that you are picking up on. You do seem to be highly sensitive to his feelings on a higher level. So you might be picking up on something and now are aware of using money to protect yourself. I don't know if I am right just something to think about maybe. But I am glad you are able to work out your thoughts with some clarity.
And it is probably healthy that you don't want too much intimacy from him. Some is ok, too much is not, right?
rsk
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2008, at 11:24:42
In reply to Re: Is it awful of me? » Dinah, posted by rskontos on May 22, 2008, at 10:03:12
I think you're absolutely right. There probably are benefits in using money to the emotional intimacy from getting too high.
This is the end of the thread.
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