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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by muffled on June 26, 2007, at 23:59:06
In reply to Re: Struggling with the concept of Need » DAisym, posted by muffled on June 26, 2007, at 22:37:06
from wikipedia.
I dunno what phrase I should use to search?
Not having much luck.
"A need is the psychological feature that arouses an organism to action toward a goal and the reason for the action, giving purpose and direction to behavior."???????????????
Posted by muffled on June 27, 2007, at 0:07:10
In reply to Need?, posted by muffled on June 26, 2007, at 23:59:06
or this?
http://honolulu.hawaii.edu/intranet/committees/FacDevCom/guidebk/teachtip/maslow.htm
Posted by DAisym on June 27, 2007, at 0:30:20
In reply to Re: Need?, posted by muffled on June 27, 2007, at 0:07:10
I think "need" as a noun means a whole lot of different things - I think Maslow is a great start. But setting aside things like air and food, we all have different needs -- things for which we yearn, things we can't even name.
The trick is to figure out your own needs - and decide if you will allow them to be met. This is the really hard part.
Posted by muffled on June 27, 2007, at 8:55:57
In reply to Re: Need? » muffled, posted by DAisym on June 27, 2007, at 0:30:20
So is it rude to ask if you have figgered any of your needs for example? Or what they are? I still a little lost. I will ask t today too, but I dunno that she will come up with much...
Maybe I could start a thread with people listing what their needs are and if and how they are able to have them met?
Maybe I am being ridiculous? This is just the sort of thing I have a hard time getting my brain around.
Thanks.
Ignore if I am being pestiferous.
Muffled
Posted by DAisym on June 27, 2007, at 13:49:58
In reply to Re: Need? Anyone???, posted by muffled on June 27, 2007, at 8:55:57
I recognize that I have huge attachment difficulties and from these grow a need to know where my therapist is and to have him be predictable. He is OK with this and has explained that he thinks it comes from not ever feeling held in my mother's mind and not being able to count on her presence. It drives my need for frequent sessions as well, as I can't sustain him internally very well. I'm much better at that than I used to be, however. :)
I hope your discussion with your therapist is productive. One of the things I struggle with is the difference between a need and want. What if I think I NEED therapy but the reality is I really only WANT it?
Posted by sunnydays on June 27, 2007, at 15:16:21
In reply to Re: Need? Anyone??? » muffled, posted by DAisym on June 27, 2007, at 13:49:58
One of the things I struggle with is the difference between a need and want. What if I think I NEED therapy but the reality is I really only WANT it?
**** Then you're still allowed to have it! My T and I talk about that same idea of a toddler who is always looking back to make sure it's mother is there to support it. He thinks I have a hard time trusting the attachment because I didn't get enough validation and experience that my mother would be there if I looked back. Didn't help that she specifically told me at times that she wanted to leave...
But your T likes you, and he's not going to leave you. I know that doesn't help a whole lot, but I'm of the belief that if I keep hearing that eventually it will sink in and become engrained in my brain, effectively overwriting the old messages from my mother.
Hopefully you can find some peace around this. I know it can be terribly hard. But it will happen, just stick with it.
sunnydays
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on June 27, 2007, at 18:54:59
In reply to Re: Need? Anyone???, posted by sunnydays on June 27, 2007, at 15:16:21
I feel so little. I don't even acknowledge to needing a T. Every once in a while I'll be brave enough to ask whether I really should be seeing her/him 2x a week. Even though I know the answer.
If a T asked me what I NEED (I dunno). If a T asked me what I needed from him/her, or from a session. I would totally freak out. I don't want to ask. I'd prefer to talk about Maslow's heirarchy than about my own stuff. I pretend like that need stuff doesn't apply to me. Hard for me to admit that I even need my husband. Sure, he does stuff for me, and loves me with very few conditions, and is a great guy, but wouldn't I do just as well on my own. And the tiny part of me says..."probably not".
I asked (joking) my newT, the quieT about whether people actually lay down on the couch. after a lot of rambling about psychoanalysis, a word caught my ear. The face to face interaction somethingerother "holding relationship" I don't want to be held. physically, emotionally or otherwise. Get Away. but don't I?
I might have to quit therapy if T ever asked me what I needed. that bad.
in case you were wondering, I satisfied my itch for oreos and skim milk. just thought I'd broadcast that again.
-Ll
Posted by Honore on June 27, 2007, at 19:15:02
In reply to Re: Need? Anyone???, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on June 27, 2007, at 18:54:59
Llurpsie, would you say that you want people to like you, but you don't need it?
The distinction between wants and needs is pretty hard to define in some instances, and easier to define in others. For me, anyway, I tend to want the things I need, and need the things I want, although the degree of need becomes less and less, and sometimes fades away into just wanting things-- when I know I don't need them.
I mean-- maybe needs and wants are also related to the possibilites-- I might need a lot more things, if they became possible-- as they started to seem necessary to my way of life, or sense of myself as stable and continuing. If I got them-- I would start to need some of them anyway-- although maybe I could live without them-- just in a diminished way.
I guess what I"m saying is that sometimes people act as if needs and wants are very separate categories, and one of them is necessary and the other isn't, and is even sort of frivolous or self-indulgent. But once you get beyond absolute physical needs, the distinction is hard to draw-- for important wants-- Which wants are important, and which are subordinate is so different for different people
I can do without people liking me- if I'm not around people. But if people don't like me-- at least the ones I need to have life me-- it's pretty devastating-- So I can't say that I don't need it, in some way-- even if it seems peripheral. And I think the line is always moving between many needs and wants, in the same way.
Sometimes, there's a difference, and other times-- well, the difference becomes very blurred.
Honore
Posted by JoniS on June 28, 2007, at 22:06:53
In reply to Struggling with the concept of Need, posted by DAisym on June 26, 2007, at 19:34:31
I'm also struggling to understand the strong need I feel for my T. I don't know if this is the same thing you are talking about or not.
Fairly early on in T I learned how I was lacking differentiation from my H. I guess another word for it is fused. So, after working on this for a while I began to see what it's like to be more differentiated and not so fused. But that seems so close to "need" I just have a lot of difficulty understanding why it seems like in t that it is good to need my T.
I just had a session last week where my T asked what I need from him, what do I get from him, etc. That is so hard to talk about. It hard to admit how much I need him and determine what exactly it is I get from him. Even though I know he cares about people, it still feels so one-sided and then I feel silly.
The analagy of taking a drug and deciding if the side effects are worth the benefits - that is so accurate. The way I see it T has helped me so much. But - sometimes I feel a strong "need" for him, I definitely love him and think about him every day. So how is this good? Of course I've healed and grown in so many areas, but isnt the neediness like the fusion?
I just don't get it.
Posted by TherapyGirl on June 29, 2007, at 21:09:45
In reply to Struggling with the concept of Need, posted by DAisym on June 26, 2007, at 19:34:31
There must be something in the air.
During our difficult session last night, one of the (many) things my T said that I didn't quite agree with is that she thinks I've been so freaked out the last few months because I don't need her like I used to and it scares me to death.
I really don't think that's it. I have readily acknowledged that there are many areas of my life I seem to (finally) have control over and I haven't been creating drama in those areas so that it seems like I need her. But I think she is glossing over the specific areas (actually mostly one area) where the need is still acute. And that is all related to my feeling safe and/or possible csa. What I told her last night was that it was true that I mostly don't need her the way I used to, but that needing her is not a linear thing. Just because I mostly don't need her doesn't mean I never need her. And she needs to step up to the plate when I'm in one of those places. I think the problem is that *she's* not recognizing those places anymore, even with cues from me.
So I basically have a big nothing of worth to contribute to this conversation. I just wanted to throw this in the mix.
It's been a bad week...
Posted by DAisym on June 30, 2007, at 1:29:12
In reply to Re: Struggling with the concept of Need » DAisym, posted by TherapyGirl on June 29, 2007, at 21:09:45
The discussion of need was drowned in the wake of a traumatic group session. I was so upset and then I was so mad -- and then just plain terrified that there was no room to continue the discussion. There was a disconnect between us,not because of something he did, but just because I was feeling so freaked out. He tried to repair things on Thursday -- asked me what I needed to get reconnected. I told him I needed the spiral speech, so I could believe that even if I've been here before, it is OK - that is how therapy works. Instead, he went back to Tuesday and talked about the good things we identified. He said since we both value those things, why would I push myself to "get over" those things - doesn't that seem silly? I tried to explain that those were great things to appreciate if one didn't need them to the point of falling apart without them. Most of the time I "need" him - or I need whatever it is he does for me so much it hurts.
Ironically, I'm pulled away right now. I feel very sad and alone but it isn't about him. Weird, given all this discussion this week. Thank you all for sharing, I'm sorry so many of us struggle with this. And it helps to hear that some have figured out how to be OK with needing. There should be a handbook about that.
Posted by Honore on June 30, 2007, at 9:35:38
In reply to Re: Struggling with the concept of Need, posted by DAisym on June 30, 2007, at 1:29:12
Daisy, I'm sad that your T couldn't find the way to reconnect this time.
It's awful when someone disappoints you-- or you disappoint yourself-- by getting torn away from a connection . and by feeling some new, disruptive hurt. Reexperiencing that moment when you need something desperately from someone important, and they really aren't there. is awful-- no matter how many time you've been through it and repaired it in the past.
You will reconnect, though. This will just be one of those places in the spiral where you rush into a bad turn, and the past comes flooding back, and you lose the trust you've built up. But it's still there. You'll find it again.
I was just thinking that maybe you're the one to write the handbook on need-- as you work on it and get to a better place. I think it would probably be a hugely valuable book that would do a lot of people a lot of good.
I'm glad you came to the chat, too-- even if you couldn't talk. And I'd love to see you in NY someday even if this visit isn't at a good time.
Honore
Posted by DAisym on June 30, 2007, at 15:30:11
In reply to Re: Struggling with the concept of Need » DAisym, posted by Honore on June 30, 2007, at 9:35:38
Funny, you are the second person this week to suggest I write a book. Can you imagine? It would be way too long and wordy. "he said, then I said and then he said..." :)
I've decided to feel better today. My therapist would laugh at that statement, but I think it is true. This free floating anxiety isn't doing me any good and there is work to do and a house to clean. And the sun is out. So I'm going to kick my own butt in gear and just get things done. Maybe that is really what I "need" to do...
I do want to say, in thinking about it, I think the disconnect from my therapist may be linked to the group therapist - you used the right word - disappointment. I know that I need to protect myself better and I also know that working out some of my issues with women is a good thing. I tend to push myself really hard when I'm with other women and hide the vulnerable parts. I think this happened in group. Instead of saying, "I can't do this, even if it was my idea" I made myself say things. And I wanted the group therapist to step in and stop me and she didn't. So I played out, again, the scenario with my mom...silently wishing to be saved, her not doing it...so realizing again that *I* have to save myself.
And you know, that isn't really such a bad thing. Because ultimately, the goal is to leave therapy and take care of myself around all these feelings. So this is good practice. I think I can say, "I have needs and I can meet these needs myself." Which is a big change from "I must never have needs."
...or something like that.
Posted by muffled on June 30, 2007, at 20:06:41
In reply to Re: Struggling with the concept of Need » Honore, posted by DAisym on June 30, 2007, at 15:30:11
>I think I can say, "I have needs and I can meet these needs myself." Which is a big change from "I must never have needs."
...or something like that.
*Nicely said...and amazing to try and accomplish.
WOW. I think I still sorta stuck in 'I must never have needs', or even, I have no needs,or, needs are for wimps, or, needs? what are they?, or I don't deserve to have them met, or I afraid....
Sigh.
Keep up the good work Daisy :-)
M
Posted by 10derheart on July 5, 2007, at 22:32:27
In reply to WOW!!!! :-), posted by muffled on June 30, 2007, at 20:06:41
My T. seems unusually interested in this right now. I mean in sorta a pushy way for him, 'cause he's completely non-directive and I pretty much lead the way unless I insist, "talk! ask me something...say something now!" Then he will.
But lately, every chance he can he slips in, "so what do you want?" or "you have such a hard time asking for what you need." [I DO NOT!] or, "tell me what you want right now." or "what do you need to make this better?"
I kinda know why and sure, it fits the stage we're at in therapy, but sheesh...I sometimes want to whip all the pillows at him!!
I feel like yelling that I don't really know the difference half the time, AND he really doesn't want to know what I need involving him,'cause it comes out all wrong AND that what I want I can never have so WHO CARES....and all sorts of angry stuff! well, truth be told, I've said a lot of this stuff.....but I so want to YELL it at him!
I'd say 'lol' but somehow, it's not so very funny.
Freakin' therapy work is hard.
Posted by muffled on July 5, 2007, at 23:05:30
In reply to Needs, wants.....bleck » muffled, posted by 10derheart on July 5, 2007, at 22:32:27
I'm with ya all the way (((((10der))))
Sigh, it IS hard :-(
Nice rant by the way ;-)
It felt good to me too.
This stuff still confuses me...
Hope your doing ok.
M
Posted by JoniS on July 6, 2007, at 8:16:23
In reply to Needs, wants.....bleck » muffled, posted by 10derheart on July 5, 2007, at 22:32:27
10derheart
Your post was so great! Such a perfect portrayal of what goes on in our (or at least MY) frustrated mind as we work in T. You made me laugh! although I know it is HARD.
Tell him your needs even though he cant meet [ALL of] them! ;)
Good Luck!
Posted by Dinah on July 15, 2007, at 16:26:22
In reply to Needs, wants.....bleck » muffled, posted by 10derheart on July 5, 2007, at 22:32:27
That sounds like a pretty good thing to tell him.
I know it sounds so silly, but when I can't think of what I want, or can't think of what to say, or a way to say it, that's what I say.
Sometimes just blurting what's really in your head leads to blurting things you didn't even realize were in your head. :/
In some ways, it is so very hard. But in other ways it is such a very valuable thing to learn.
My family was just talking about how scary it was to talk about what you want, for fear of being told "no", and how when you are told "no" it can make you feel bad about asking or even wanting.
But in therapy it isn't bad to ask or want. Well, it's not in real life either as long as you're willing to take a "no" but it's so much clearer that it's ok in therapy.
Both learning to ask and learning to say no are excellent things.
So what's in your head when he asks, that's what you should tell him.
Yes, it is a new step in therapy. A good one, with good results, though. At least with a good therapist.
Posted by DAisym on July 16, 2007, at 0:58:55
In reply to Re: Needs, wants.....bleck » 10derheart, posted by Dinah on July 15, 2007, at 16:26:22
Yes but...
I think I feel the same way sometimes as Tender. I WANT/NEED what I've found in therapy - someone who gets me, someone who cares that I have nightmares and someone who can tolerate my sadness. I think something inside me has been shaken awake and now it won't go back to sleep. This thing longs to feel cared for and safe and like I matter. My therapist has provided these things but now the limitations are so painful. I want it in IRL! So I want him - but know I can't have him - and know that I'd never want to wreck his life anyway, career, family, etc. -- but still -- I want him. I tell myself I want someone like him, but I have no faith that I'll ever meet anyone like him who would care about me.
This isn't a sexual fantasy at all. This is a warm partner fantasy in which I'm not alone anymore.
Therapy is so painful right now because of these feelings.
I'm with Tender, I want to yell at him.
Posted by Dinah on July 16, 2007, at 9:37:31
In reply to Re: Needs, wants.....bleck » Dinah, posted by DAisym on July 16, 2007, at 0:58:55
I'm sure you've shared those thoughts with him. And I'm sure that he responded warmly, although the answer may have been "no". "No" still hurts, but you aren't wrong for wishing or wanting or being angry with him.
I guess I'm not in a position to fully understand. I don't get what I get with my therapist with my husband. My husband's gifts run in other directions. But I do have him to hold me and snuggle and I appreciate him and our marriage.
While I know that I would end up hating my therapist (and vice versa) if I were married to him.
So maybe I'm lucky in that whatever I want from him, I want within the confines of the therapy office, or other standard therapeutic methods of contact.
Mind you, the answer is "no" to a lot of what I want from him too. I think I have a good understanding of the ways that he does care for me, and the ways I wish he would care more for me. And sometimes it hurts a lot that I care for him so much more than he cares for me. Or when he moves to a different chair because I'm too close. Or when he casually comments about assessing his future in terms of what's best for his family, when I want to scream I'm family too. He's my therapist/mommy, so surely I must be his client/little girl. Yet I'm not.
He knows all that too. And still the answer is no. It's a warm no, and a caring no, and an occasionally exasperated or even angry no (if he's feeling a bit guilty about the no). And generally we have an unspoken agreement not to trod on those tender spots. But we came to that after we fully fully explored everything, and I came to a certain peace about it.
So perhaps my input isn't overly helpful since my wants aren't really the same.
Posted by sunnydays on July 16, 2007, at 10:14:41
In reply to Re: Needs, wants.....bleck » Dinah, posted by DAisym on July 16, 2007, at 0:58:55
Daisy... this reminded me of something my therapist said last session. He said, "Your loving for me, and I'm not trying to diminish it at all, because it is real, is about what you need. You need someone who's going to be constant and consistent. I think I kind of embody this sense of 'everything's going to be ok' for you. And that's what you need. Because I'm a nice person, it's easy to put that on me."
It was interesting. So I get what you're saying about needing what your therapist provides.
sunnydays
Posted by DAisym on July 16, 2007, at 15:01:16
In reply to Re: Needs, wants.....bleck » DAisym, posted by Dinah on July 16, 2007, at 9:37:31
You are always helpful, and gentle...
I think I'm at this place again for many converging reasons - my dad came to visit, I went on a trip with my mom, I filed divorce papers and I read a new book specifically about attachment in psychotherapy. The book especially took me to that place of knowing that I'm in really good hands and that the therapy we are doing is the exact right therapy for me. My therapist has been so THERE for me, as always, but even more so...the voice mail he left me when I went away was so completely perfect - he even mentioned shoe shopping. It just makes the lack of these others particularly evident. So - I'm hurting.
Intellectually I know I don't know him well enough to make the determination of a good "warm partner" fit. What if he is a slob? Or doesn't eat baked goods? I struggle with all these feelings of right and wrong and appropriate. But mostly I just know what is missing from my life and feeling close to him makes me even more lonely.
When we talk about it, he tells me I'm learning to allow myself to need in a safe way - he won't take advantage of the need nor will he hurt me (intentionally anyway). And the repair and slow growth of my core self will eventually make it so I'm "enough" all on my own. Feels like a very long way away.
I've actually drifted this weekend over to wondering if I'm just destined to be alone, that I'm not meant to have an intimate partner. I'll have family and friends and colleagues and perhaps that is enough. I just wish I didn't know how good it feels when someone says the exact right thing at the exact right moment and for that moment you feel completely safe and cared for.
I didn't miss it when I didn't know I could ever have it. And now I don't know how to undo this. What is it they say about a little knowledge?
Posted by DAisym on July 16, 2007, at 15:06:04
In reply to Re: Needs, wants.....bleck » DAisym, posted by sunnydays on July 16, 2007, at 10:14:41
Your therapist is a smart guy...
I'm always impressed with how well he handles your loving feelings and makes sense of them. Do you ever wonder if the love you feel for him will translate into something good with someone else?
Awhile back I told my therapist that what I really wanted was for him to save me. "From what?" he asked. I could not verbalize exactly what I was talking about. It is this sense of wanting someone to rush in and keep you safe but it is disconcerting because there is nothing dangerous going on for me right now.
So maybe I can borrow what your therapist said. Maybe what I really want is that sense of "it will all be OK" and I'm hoping my therapist can provide that. I'll have to think about it some more.
Thanks for sharing it.
Posted by sunnydays on July 16, 2007, at 15:11:28
In reply to Re: Needs, wants.....bleck » Dinah, posted by DAisym on July 16, 2007, at 15:01:16
((((Daisy))))
I'm so sorry you're hurting. Try to take good care. I was wondering what book about attachment you read? I might like to look at it to!
Thanks,
sunnydays
Posted by sunnydays on July 16, 2007, at 15:15:22
In reply to Re: Needs, wants.....bleck » sunnydays, posted by DAisym on July 16, 2007, at 15:06:04
I do wonder a LOT if anyone will ever love me, if I'll be able to trust enough to love someone else. I think it will happen, though, just because I see my friendships changing and getting deeper because of my therapy. But I wonder a lot about that, partly because I'm 21 and have never been kissed, never had a boyfriend. It's something I want so much, but I feel like I hold people at arm's length because I'm too afraid to trust them.
I think good things will come to you too. It just takes a lot of time sometimes.
sunnydays
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