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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by bent on October 5, 2006, at 15:45:49
For a few weeks now I have been pulling away from my T. When I leave after my appointment I am sad, but by the next week, just before my appointment, I am nervous and sure I have no reason to be in therapy. I know this isn’t true, there are things to be discussed but I keep the conversation as superficial as I can. There is one thing that never used to be an issue for me but now is. I hate that my T sees other clients. I don’t feel jealous but I feel like a number. I imagine she is the same way with every client. That there is nothing unique or special about me. I am simply her job. I am what she does for a living. Therapy doesn’t hurt her. I bet she never leaves crying. I bet she says the same things to all her clients. I usually try to get to my appointment just in time as to not see her previous client leaving. Two weeks ago she was running late and sure enough out of her door came this woman a little older than me. I wanted to run away and cry. I think about all the other people who talk to MY T all week and sit in MY chair. It seems weird to me that this is an issue after 4 years of therapy. I have been feeling a lot of anger towards her, but not really justified anger. She hasn’t been different or not as nice as usual. I think it’s just my way of forcing space between us. It’s easier to back away when I am mad at her. We haven’t talked about this. I feel embarrassed saying that I am upset because of her other clients. Maybe someone else has been through this too?
Posted by TherapyGirl on October 5, 2006, at 16:31:11
In reply to not liking my T's 'other' clients, posted by bent on October 5, 2006, at 15:45:49
Yes, and I imagine quite a few other people have, too. I'm fine if I don't actually *see* her other clients, which is the case most of the time.
If this is bothering you that much, I think you should try to bring it up with her. You've been with her for so long that I can't imagine she wouldn't handle this well.
Posted by annierose on October 5, 2006, at 16:59:19
In reply to not liking my T's 'other' clients, posted by bent on October 5, 2006, at 15:45:49
>>>> I have been feeling a lot of anger towards her, but not really justified anger. <<<
This is so important to bring up in therapy. Don't push those feelings back down. When I am angry towards my T, there is usually a lot of "old stuff" in the room with us. I think you will find it extremely helpful to explore what those angry feelings are trying to say.
Posted by Jost on October 5, 2006, at 18:21:47
In reply to Re: not liking my T's 'other' clients » bent, posted by annierose on October 5, 2006, at 16:59:19
I've felt this, and I"ve also just felt jealous of other patients. I might see someone in the waiting room and think they're much neater and more interesting, or accomplished than me-- and that my T looks forward to seeing them, and that they make him feel special, or that they are special. While I"m ordinary, dreary, boring, draining, or whatever.
I think I've felt like just one of a crowd-- as if I disappear into the multitudes of almost indistinguishable people around my T-- and we're all vying for attention-- and that I"ll inevitably lose out.
Among other things.
I always think, though, when I worry about being special-- what do I mean by it anyway? And why does one person, my T, or another person-- some other T-- or someone I"m suddenly attracted to in RL--suddenly become the arbiter of who's "special"-whatever it means--when a week or two before I didn't even know they (that T, or that attractive person) existed. And at a future point, I'll have forgotten about them, and they'll have lost the power to endow anyone with "specialness" for me.
I also question the whole notion of 'specialnes" and its role in my life-- mostly in my not being it-- and therefore being rather useless.
I'm not sure if any of these is like what you're experiencing. Maybe you have a very different set of emotions, or thoughts, about your T and her other patients/clients.
Jost
Posted by Racer on October 5, 2006, at 19:44:39
In reply to Re: not liking my T's 'other' clients » annierose, posted by Jost on October 5, 2006, at 18:21:47
I get that a little with the other people in group. There's one other woman I just find overwhelming. When she's not there, group is always great for me, but when she's there -- let's just say I don't feel nearly as satisfied.
Actually, let's say a lot of other things, but mostly having to do with me feeling very unhappy with myself about my reactions. I start feeling immature, childish, selfish, and many other unattractive things because I resent the amount of space she takes up in the room -- ESPECIALLY when she starts talking about how much work she's done with our T, how great she is because of it, what she's doing in her graduate program at the school where our T is a dean -- especially because she'll say things like, "Well, you know what he's like..." to our T -- and so on. I feel a lot of resentment -- part of which is just plain NOT LIKING her, which makes me feel bad; and I get resentful because she talks too much about herself and how she doesn't have this problem anymore, that never bothers her anymore, etc. And there's a place in me that feels envy, because I get this feeling like our T likes her more than she likes me... (Part of all this is that I don't even have a BA, so I get a painful envy about anyone in graduate school, tinged with a lot of shame that I've accomplished NOTHING in my life.)
Some of the other women in group I envy, but that's the only one who causes me any problems.
As far as crossing paths with other clients, my T specializes in eating disorders, so I turn emerald green when I pass someone thin, and feel ashamed when I pass someone heavy, and feel slightly less ashamed when I pass someone "normal" sized. I guess I get ashamed at being so fat when I pass someone thin, so shame is a bit of a theme. In terms of resenting them for seeing my T, too, that's not a problem for me.
I'll say it again, despite having said it before: When I taught riding, my students were mostly all special to me. There were a few who stood out, but mostly they were ALL special to me, just in different ways. I know that people tend to discount someone who says that, thinking they're trying to make everyone feel better, but you know what? It's true -- they were all special to me, and I looked forward to nearly every single one of them. (The few exceptions were very few, and they were the impossible students. Some of them were assigned to me because NO ONE else there would teach them -- partly as punishment for me being me, but partly because I could put up with a certain level of impossibility in students.)
The point of all that is that I don't worry that my T thinks of me as a number -- I know she doesn't, because of some things she's said in group, but I also take it on faith that she operates in a similar manner to the way I did with students. I believe, and take it on faith, that she sees ALL of her clients as being special in some way. (I also think she'd refer away anyone she just didn't want to deal with.)
Bent, if you are just reacting to your own issues, that's one thing. If that's the case, I think it's well worth bringing into a session. (I know it's hard -- I'm thinking about posting something about my own current issue, which I might do later.) On the other hand, if you're getting actual vibes that something's wrong, and you don't think it's you -- it might be worth considering if this is the right therapist for you right now...
Posted by Jost on October 5, 2006, at 20:42:50
In reply to Re: not liking my T's 'other' clients, posted by Racer on October 5, 2006, at 19:44:39
Racer brings up an interesting point, which is that I've seen various Ts --(I started young, and have seen one T or other most of my life, so maybe I"m too weird to rely on)-- and I don't have feelings of competitiveness and need for :"specialness" with all of them.
Only certain ones. I'm pretty sure it's them-- and it's me.
I'm pretty sure it's them, in the sense that only certain people evoke these feelings in me-- and I'm probably reacting to something they're doing-- I'm not sure what, or why-- if they are less responsive and present in the moment, less expressive, less emotionally intense, somewhat more distant or hard to reach-- or what it is--
but I'm pretty sure it's something they're doing.
But it's also something about me-- my need for acceptance, my sense of being deprived (or having lacked) much love, or excitement about myself, or engagement with, emotional attunedness to myself, from my parents. When I come into contact with people who remind me of that-- who stimulate that feeling-- it pains me. I begin to relive some of those old, very bad feelings.
It's important to explore it. Maybe your T can help to make things better. But it is important to resolve that feeling-- I do think the Ts who've helped me have not been the ones about whom I've had that feeling.
Which isn't to say that it can't be worked through-- I imagine it can-- but it hasn't worked that way for me. Not for lack of trying, though.
Jost
Posted by Dinah on October 5, 2006, at 20:51:04
In reply to Re: not liking my T's 'other' clients, posted by Jost on October 5, 2006, at 20:42:50
Unfortunately the people I want to be special to are the ones I find special.
I'm not sure I'd want to give up the one and lose the other.
Maybe it just means a different level of attachment on your part (even though it doesn't feel like it) and a natural desire for that attachment to be reciprocal, or anger that in some ways it just isn't.
Posted by Jost on October 5, 2006, at 21:08:13
In reply to Re: not liking my T's 'other' clients, posted by Dinah on October 5, 2006, at 20:51:04
I don't observe a one-to-one correspondence between finding other people special and the intense feeling of needing to be more special.
That's part of what's strange-- the feeling that someone is special can be coupled with that sense of lack-- or not.
Just like, some exceptionally smart people make me feel horribly stupid-- and other equally smart people don't. And I've come to the conclusion that whatever it is that makes me feel stupid isn't the person's smartness per se-- but some other quality about how they are, in combination with the smartness.
I'd agree that thinking the other person is special is necessary, but for me, it doesn't seem sufficient for the recapitulation. Certainly, it's a desire for something, which feels at times like reciprocity--yet somehow it also doesn't seem the other person could, in fact, give it to me--under any circumstances. I think, perhaps mistakenly, that even if I were the person's spouse-- I'd still feel this emptiness or gap.
I may be wrong-- but there's something so profound and real in the feeling --and I can have it about people IRL, too--I can't imagine that I ever could feel a sense of importance-- no matter what form the relationship took. I really hate that feeling, too, and often eventually begin to hate the person who causes it.
I don't make any strong distinction between transference and what happens in real life (I'd call all experience transferential-- in a way).
I wonder, though. ? Wish I knew.Jost
Posted by Dinah on October 5, 2006, at 21:23:45
In reply to Re: not liking my T's 'other' clients » Dinah, posted by Jost on October 5, 2006, at 21:08:13
> (I'd call all experience transferential-- in a way).
I do as well. :)
I guess we all have different patterns. I've gotten familiar enough with mine that I can find it amusing as well as painful.
Sometimes I suspect that's as close to healthy as I'll ever get. Being able to find myself amusing.
Posted by Jost on October 5, 2006, at 23:27:34
In reply to Re: not liking my T's 'other' clients » Jost, posted by Dinah on October 5, 2006, at 21:23:45
I meant to say that I don't hate the people in a literal sense. I meant the phrase colloquially. Mostly, I feel a strong need/desire/desperation to get away from them.
I certainly don't hate them.
But I do know what you mean-- the way I experience things does absolutely seem like the way they are-- but then I sometimes feel so odd, that I figure if it's not "the way they are" it's probably some kind of peculiarity, that I'd better not confess to-- but then confess to anyway. Possibly as some sort of unconscious expiation, or attempt to somewhat implicate the other person-- cause now they know-- it's as if they share it.Maybe? I'm not sure why I sometimes feel compelled to burst out with things about myself.
Jost
Posted by bent on October 6, 2006, at 0:24:58
In reply to Re: not liking my T's 'other' clients » bent, posted by TherapyGirl on October 5, 2006, at 16:31:11
>>If this is bothering you that much, I think you should try to bring it up with her. You've been with her for so long that I can't imagine she wouldn't handle this well.
I know you are right. And considering this is something that has only bothered me even more as time goes on, I know I need (and will) tell her. Its just hard getting over that first bump and saying it.
Posted by bent on October 6, 2006, at 0:30:00
In reply to Re: not liking my T's 'other' clients » bent, posted by annierose on October 5, 2006, at 16:59:19
>>>> I have been feeling a lot of anger towards her, but not really justified anger. <<<
>> This is so important to bring up in therapy. Don't push those feelings back down. When I am angry towards my T, there is usually a lot of "old stuff" in the room with us. I think you will find it extremely helpful to explore what those angry feelings are trying to say.<<<
I agree with you. There is often 'old stuff' flying around that room. We call it "therapy debris" and I always try to dodge it instead of catch it. Oddly, before reading your post, I roughed out a letter to my T explaining some of the anger. Not so much the other client stuff, but its a start.
Posted by bent on October 6, 2006, at 0:40:08
In reply to Re: not liking my T's 'other' clients, posted by Jost on October 5, 2006, at 20:42:50
<<(I started young, and have seen one T or other most of my life, so maybe I"m too weird to rely on)>>
You definitely arent weird...or maybe I am weird with you. My first T was in middle school and I have had 4 since then. I am in my 20's. I never opened to any of them but the current one though.
>> But it's also something about me-- my need for acceptance, my sense of being deprived (or having lacked) much love, or excitement about myself, or engagement with, emotional attunedness to myself, from my parents. When I come into contact with people who remind me of that-- who stimulate that feeling-- it pains me. I begin to relive some of those old, very bad feelings.<<I agree. I have often felt, in a sort of illogical way i guess, that my T is capable of filling all these little holes where I feel I was deprived. Then of course when I remember she cant really do that I get mad at her. This might explain some of the anger I feel.
Posted by bent on October 6, 2006, at 0:51:59
In reply to Re: not liking my T's 'other' clients, posted by Racer on October 5, 2006, at 19:44:39
>> I'll say it again, despite having said it before: When I taught riding, my students were mostly all special to me. There were a few who stood out, but mostly they were ALL special to me, just in different ways. I know that people tend to discount someone who says that, thinking they're trying to make everyone feel better, but you know what? It's true -- they were all special to me, and I looked forward to nearly every single one of them. >>I tutor college science students, and I feel that same way about them. While I generally like most of them and enjoy helping them, I feel 'boundaries' that are similar to therapy. I am not exactly their friend and I cant take home their problems or worry about how they do on that exam. But that doesnt mean they are nothing to me. Sometimes I think this has got to be similar to what my T (and most others) do.
>> Bent, if you are just reacting to your own issues, that's one thing. If that's the case, I think it's well worth bringing into a session.<<
I am sure there are a lot of my issues playing here. Sometimes it takes a while for them to be clear to me. I do need to talk to her about it. That will be my next step.
Thanks.
Posted by bent on October 6, 2006, at 1:00:29
In reply to Re: not liking my T's 'other' clients, posted by Dinah on October 5, 2006, at 20:51:04
>> Unfortunately the people I want to be special to are the ones I find special.
I'm not sure I'd want to give up the one and lose the other. >>good point.
>> Maybe it just means a different level of attachment on your part (even though it doesn't feel like it) and a natural desire for that attachment to be reciprocal, or anger that in some ways it just isn't. >>
I think you hit the nail on the head. The logical part of my brain totally understands the sort of non-equal, one-sidedness of the relationship. Of course, the not so logical side is mad and hurt about it. Why wont the logical and illogical parts talk to each other!! My T tends to refer to these 'sides' as adult feelings vs child feelings. I can see that kinda.
Posted by Dinah on October 6, 2006, at 8:09:59
In reply to Re: not liking my T's 'other' clients » Dinah, posted by Jost on October 5, 2006, at 23:27:34
I'm sorry, because I must have phrased my response very badly. :( That's not how I meant you to feel at all, and I'm sorry if I implied any of that. It really really wasn't my impression.
I'm sure how you react isn't a peculiarity at all. I'm sure many many people feel that way.
It's just that my own particular pattern is to choose someone who can't, by definition, be completely reciprocal in sharing my feelings. And then try my best to defy that reality. And to succeed to some extent (because if I don't succeed at all there's no reward and I'll walk away and forget the whole thing), and then feel like if I just try a bit harder, I'll succeed a bit more, and eventually set myself up for disappointment.
Generally these are people who, given their position, are actually reasonably likely to make me feel special. I just set it up so that I can never really appreciate that fully because my goals are always higher.
And I've gotten to find that amusing in myself. :)
This is the end of the thread.
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