![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 123 to 147 of 147. Go back in thread:
Posted by Joslynn on January 18, 2004, at 1:01:29
In reply to Re: two more links, posted by crushedout on January 17, 2004, at 12:12:51
Yeah that was a stupid link. I should have read it more thoroughly before I posted it. I think the other parts of it were interesting, the parts not written by a laywer.
But, while I don't think it's appropriate for a therapist to abandon a client, I also don't think it's appropriate for therapists to talk about their own sexual practices and feelings, especially if they are fantasizing about patients...even if the fantasies are not about the patient sitting right there.
Mabye I'm conceited, but of course I would assume he was fantasing about moi, LOL. Or, if I thought it wasn't about me...well then, why NOT me, hmmph, what I am, chopped liver? It would be a no-win sitch for me personally.
But then, I don't talk much about sex in therapy. Well, there is nothing to talk about now in that department anyway...I hope I am not boring them.
Posted by Fallen4myT on January 18, 2004, at 1:29:28
In reply to Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!!, posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 14:32:04
I am new here and it is 2 A.M so I do not have a lot to say well, I do but not now. I just had to tell you I think you are so cool Karen I could never ask what you asked your psychologist no matter what :)
Posted by crushedout on January 18, 2004, at 8:42:32
In reply to Re: two more links, posted by Joslynn on January 18, 2004, at 1:01:29
Hey Joslynn, I'm still glad you posted that link. I thought it was interesting. And provoked a "discussion" of what we didn't agree with about it, so grist for the mill.> Yeah that was a stupid link. I should have read it more thoroughly before I posted it. I think the other parts of it were interesting, the parts not written by a laywer.
>
> But, while I don't think it's appropriate for a therapist to abandon a client, I also don't think it's appropriate for therapists to talk about their own sexual practices and feelings, especially if they are fantasizing about patients...even if the fantasies are not about the patient sitting right there.
>
> Mabye I'm conceited, but of course I would assume he was fantasing about moi, LOL. Or, if I thought it wasn't about me...well then, why NOT me, hmmph, what I am, chopped liver? It would be a no-win sitch for me personally.
>
> But then, I don't talk much about sex in therapy. Well, there is nothing to talk about now in that department anyway...I hope I am not boring them.
Posted by dragonfly25 on January 18, 2004, at 9:58:36
In reply to Re: sexual boundary crossing » Joslynn, posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 20:50:14
hi karen
i acually was SHOCKED when i read your first post and felt like crushedout and joslynn. But...after reading your defense :) i believe that he has a 'special' relationship with you, not in a sexual way but in a close bonded way. he cares about you and you care about him. this isn't always obvious in therapy relationships, when it happens it is great! i've had it and it was a relationship that others couldn't understand or they wanted??? i could and would say just about anything to him, as he would to me. i could take his humor and he could (sometimes) take mine :) of course i would not be open to hearing about his sex life (well maybe, i don't know, it was never an issue) my point is that i think you have a very unique relationship, with a very unique guy, and i think those are hard to find! when you read about what he first said it is rather shocking but then i went back to my relationship and some of the things i was told about etc, would bother people and i personally think he was awsome! so don't worry about it, i don't think he needs defending, you know what he is like and you know if he is helping you. one otehr thing, i think he knew what he was doing when he said it, i believe that he would not have told you that if you didn't have the 'issues' you have adn i don't think he would say that to many other patients. i hope this helped :)
dragonfly
Posted by crushedout on January 18, 2004, at 10:05:53
In reply to i will defend him.... » Karen_kay, posted by dragonfly25 on January 18, 2004, at 9:58:36
but see, that's the problem. as much as i *want* (as much as i think we all want) to be special to our therapists, one thing that i found informative/intriguing about the links joslynn posted is that we're not *supposed* to be special. if we become that to our Ts, they're actually having a problem. they're no longer objective enough.
what do you guys think of this? is it b.s.? is it ok to be special, e.g., to be our T's faves (or one of them)? or is that a sign of trouble?
> hi karen
>
> i acually was SHOCKED when i read your first post and felt like crushedout and joslynn. But...after reading your defense :) i believe that he has a 'special' relationship with you, not in a sexual way but in a close bonded way. he cares about you and you care about him. this isn't always obvious in therapy relationships, when it happens it is great! i've had it and it was a relationship that others couldn't understand or they wanted??? i could and would say just about anything to him, as he would to me. i could take his humor and he could (sometimes) take mine :) of course i would not be open to hearing about his sex life (well maybe, i don't know, it was never an issue) my point is that i think you have a very unique relationship, with a very unique guy, and i think those are hard to find! when you read about what he first said it is rather shocking but then i went back to my relationship and some of the things i was told about etc, would bother people and i personally think he was awsome! so don't worry about it, i don't think he needs defending, you know what he is like and you know if he is helping you. one otehr thing, i think he knew what he was doing when he said it, i believe that he would not have told you that if you didn't have the 'issues' you have adn i don't think he would say that to many other patients. i hope this helped :)
> dragonfly
Posted by dragonfly25 on January 18, 2004, at 10:13:37
In reply to being Special » dragonfly25, posted by crushedout on January 18, 2004, at 10:05:53
hi
i need to update myself. i hadn't read anything following the post i responded to, i have been doing it now. so i hadn't read the links yet when i posted. i actually thought today was the 16th. that is bad!!!
Posted by dragonfly25 on January 18, 2004, at 10:45:53
In reply to being Special » dragonfly25, posted by crushedout on January 18, 2004, at 10:05:53
ok, i can't read all the posts now cause im running out the door soon (so if i sound ignorant to them, im sorry)but.... yes i think some of boundry issues are bs. and i posted on another thread about how important i think boudries are. i do! i think they are critical. i have had a boundry violation with a therappist.
i think the patient knows when a boundry has been violated, and i don't think karen did until she started reading about all those boundries. actually im not sure she even thinks a boundry was violated???
when i referred to 'special' ididn't mean "special" i meant that it was a solid grounded relationship where you are completely comfortable with the therapist and they are completely comfortable with you. because a therapist can't always be comfortable with patients- we can all be pretty screwed up at times. but after awile you build an understanding kind of. i am having a really hard time explaining what i am trying to say. i think there are critical boundries that should not be crossed. actually i would be interested in knowing if karen is on a first name basis with her therapist. (not saying that it critical, but i think it is important to keep that boundry clear). um i have to think about this...
> but see, that's the problem. as much as i *want* (as much as i think we all want) to be special to our therapists, one thing that i found informative/intriguing about the links joslynn posted is that we're not *supposed* to be special. if we become that to our Ts, they're actually having a problem. they're no longer objective enough.
>
> what do you guys think of this? is it b.s.? is it ok to be special, e.g., to be our T's faves (or one of them)? or is that a sign of trouble?
>
Posted by All Done on January 18, 2004, at 11:26:32
In reply to being Special » dragonfly25, posted by crushedout on January 18, 2004, at 10:05:53
> but see, that's the problem. as much as i *want* (as much as i think we all want) to be special to our therapists, one thing that i found informative/intriguing about the links joslynn posted is that we're not *supposed* to be special. if we become that to our Ts, they're actually having a problem. they're no longer objective enough.
>
> what do you guys think of this? is it b.s.? is it ok to be special, e.g., to be our T's faves (or one of them)? or is that a sign of trouble?
>
>Good questions, crushedout. I think sometimes I am in the minority around here, but I just don't understand how our therapists *couldn't* see each of us as special in one way or another. If my therapist was unable to find my "specialness" in relation to him and our relationship, I would question how effective he could be with me. I don't think it would work if he treated me exactly like he treats every other client he has. I have different issues, feelings, and responses. He has to take that into account. Obviously, they learn the "basics" and use them as a foundation for their objectivity, but they must adapt to each client's personality and situation.
As to "favorites", I always go back to the humanness of our therapists. They have plenty of thoughts and feelings as they are listening to us pour our hearts out each session. I think they are trained to put those to the side so they can use objectivity in formulating their responses to us (therefore maintaining appropriate boundaries). But how could their thoughts and feelings not lead to having favorites?
Posted by crushedout on January 18, 2004, at 11:39:31
In reply to Re: being Special » crushedout, posted by All Done on January 18, 2004, at 11:26:32
Good points, AllDone. Especially about them being human. I think that legal link that said they shouldn't start thinking a client was "special" was probably not very realistic or practical. But I still think that it makes an interesting point, especially with regard to the kind of boundary crossings we're talking about here. Basically, that it's a danger sign.(Just to clarify, by "special," I didn't mean
special in the sense that we're all unique and have different needs, etc. I meant "special" in the sense of being a favorite. In other words, when they see us as *more* "special" than other clients. And as being able to treat us in ways that they wouldn't treat anyone else, or that aren't terribly kosher (such as over-disclosing to us).)
> > but see, that's the problem. as much as i *want* (as much as i think we all want) to be special to our therapists, one thing that i found informative/intriguing about the links joslynn posted is that we're not *supposed* to be special. if we become that to our Ts, they're actually having a problem. they're no longer objective enough.
> >
> > what do you guys think of this? is it b.s.? is it ok to be special, e.g., to be our T's faves (or one of them)? or is that a sign of trouble?
> >
> >
>
> Good questions, crushedout. I think sometimes I am in the minority around here, but I just don't understand how our therapists *couldn't* see each of us as special in one way or another. If my therapist was unable to find my "specialness" in relation to him and our relationship, I would question how effective he could be with me. I don't think it would work if he treated me exactly like he treats every other client he has. I have different issues, feelings, and responses. He has to take that into account. Obviously, they learn the "basics" and use them as a foundation for their objectivity, but they must adapt to each client's personality and situation.
>
> As to "favorites", I always go back to the humanness of our therapists. They have plenty of thoughts and feelings as they are listening to us pour our hearts out each session. I think they are trained to put those to the side so they can use objectivity in formulating their responses to us (therefore maintaining appropriate boundaries). But how could their thoughts and feelings not lead to having favorites?
Posted by Karen_kay on January 18, 2004, at 11:46:37
In reply to Re: two more links, posted by Joslynn on January 18, 2004, at 1:01:29
While I agree completely that the links were interesting, I must admit they had me SCARED for a while. I know that wasn't your intention. And I wasn't scared that he was acting inappropriately, I was scared that he was considering terminating me. But, I just had to remember that I am one of his favorite clients and all those thoughts deminished :)
I'm quite certain his actions (whoops, did I actually write actions? I meant to write ??Words maybe? Phrashing??) aren't suited for everyone. And I'm also certainhe isn't nearly this relaxed with his other clients. It's jsut that we do have this type of relaionship where I prefer it to remain more casual, so I can trust him and I can open up. My results have proven the effectiveness. I'm less resistant. And I don't have the "Ill-fated Transference Crush" on him as I did when I first began seeing him. He didn't seem to act this way as much when I was experiencing the so called crush.
So, if the results prove in favor of the treatment, I say "Why not?"...
Posted by Karen_kay on January 18, 2004, at 11:49:46
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!!, posted by Fallen4myT on January 18, 2004, at 1:29:28
Why couldn't you ask? I think things like that aren't nearly as hard as talking about and feeling the things I should be. Then again, my foot is permanently lodged in my throat...
But thanks for the lovely comments. I'll print them out and cherish them forever and ever :)
Posted by Karen_kay on January 18, 2004, at 11:52:29
In reply to Re: two more links » Joslynn, posted by crushedout on January 18, 2004, at 8:42:32
I agree! Debates are always fun! And to question your therapist about his/her conduct could prove interesting. I plan on possibly bringing it up, if time permits. But Fallsfall asked a question on PSB, "What do therapists talk about to eachother?" and I really want to know. And I think he'll only allow me one question per session..Well, I did get away with 2 last time...
Posted by Karen_kay on January 18, 2004, at 12:11:35
In reply to Re: being Special, posted by dragonfly25 on January 18, 2004, at 10:45:53
Actually, we are on a first name basis. As he is with every other client he sees. (So, does that make a difference, if he's consistent?) The thing is, he knows that I have problems with guilt and sex combined. Maybe he shouldn't have told me aobut his personal fantasies, but he did include the fact that he also thinks about other people as well (my typing seems to be slowing down, as this isn't really a good defense. Wondering now what the point was....) Oh, got it. The point was to reassure me that IT IS OK for me to think aobut whoever I want because other people do too! (Ah ha! I figured it out!) Now, this is someone I highly respect, and if HE says he thinks about whoever he wants, then it must be OK for me to do as well, you see? If you don't I can draw a picture.. :)
Now, another good thing that has come from all of this is the fact that my trust in him has SKYROCKETED!!! I'm telling you I trust him so much that I'm going to tell him that I googled him, found a pic of his wife (tried to email that pic to my sister to reassure me that I am in fact better looking than her and crashed the site..OH THE HORROR!!! the shame...Maybe I'll leave that one out, should I?? Yeah, I think I will..Oh, ladies, please don't think bad of me. I wsa going through a BAD crush on him at the time...), I found out where he lives, ect. I'm fessing up because I TRUST HIM!!! Just because he answered a question honestly. And this also means that I will be able to talk more freely about my past and different issues because he can "be trusted with my secrets"..... And that's great!
I always wonder how or why he does things, but it seems they ALWAYS work out. Maybe he knows what he's doing, maybe not. Maybe I know what he's doing and he has no clue. Maybe it's the idea that you ladies (and gentlemen) know what he's doing. Maybe no one knows what's going on. But it seems to work for me and that's all that matters :)And the fact that I may or may not feel special doesn't phase me. I know I'm special to the people who matter. I'm not at all suggesting it isn't nice to hear. Oh, it's great! I used to press the issue and he'd become so frustrated! He used to say, "The children I see are my favorite clients." But, I can't be jealous of children can I? Heck yeah I can! But, I know that I'm entertaining on occassion and also making quite a bit of progress. But, I'm not making progress for him. I'm doing it for me. I just know in my herat if i were seeing a different therapist I wouldn't be making the progress I am. I used to see a different therapist for about the same amount of time as I've been seeing him and I made absolutely no progress. It's jsut that he didnt' challenge me nearly enough. He didn't pick up on my game-playing. As much as I hate it when my current therapist accuses me of "playing-games" I know I am. Does that mean I stop? NEVER!
Posted by Karen_kay on January 18, 2004, at 12:23:26
In reply to Re: being Special » crushedout, posted by All Done on January 18, 2004, at 11:26:32
That goes back to the conversation I had with my therapist about feelings (from the therapist) getting in the way of therapy. I think when I typed that out, it was confused with the previous conversation.
He said that he is able to seperate his feelings to a certain extent from the therapy process. I know that I have favorites. I have my favorite therapist, niece, sister, student when I taught for a class, ect. The point is to not let it show. But therapists undergo training, I would assume, to help them deal with this type of thing. Maybe it wouldn't hurt the client a bit to feel that he/she is the favorite? What do you think? I mean if the client has selfesteem issues or feelings of never being good enough, wouldn't it be a good thing to feel as though she is her therapist's favorite client? Now, even if she is not, just to help boost her ego? I'm not a therapist, probably a good thing mind you, but if the client is struggling with either self esteem issues or especially troubles opening up or trusting the therapist, wouldn't it aid in developing the relationship if the therapist made her think she was special to him in some way (as in one of his favorite clients)?Just because he says it, doesn't make it true, BTW. I don't always believe everything he says. I trust him,but I don't take his word as law :) He is a therapist and I tend to think there's some type of motive behind every word that comes spewing out of his cute little mouth. I'm also a skeptic if you hadn't noticed....
Posted by Penny on January 18, 2004, at 18:03:16
In reply to Re: being referred on » Penny, posted by Karen_kay on January 17, 2004, at 10:22:07
> As for your Pdoc offering you money, did that make you uncomfortable?
Well, it was an offer of a loan, so not a gift, which is better. He knows that when I get extremely financially strapped and stressed over it, it can send me spiraling downhill faster than almost anything. And while the thought of killing oneself over money problems might seem foolish to someone not in my head, at the time I truly feel like my world is crashing down around me and I see no way out. So at the time I told him that I thought I would be okay until the next payday but if I wasn't I was going to see if I could borrow $100 from my grandmother. And he said, "Well, I don't usually do this, but I would be happy to loan you $100 if your grandmother can't." Mind you, he already writes off part of my copay, and gives me free meds as often as he can. His generosity can be overwhelming at times.
Yeah, I don't know what I did to deserve such treatment from him - I mean, I know he's just as available to his other patients as to me, but I do feel like I have a special relationship with him, perhaps moreso than some of his other patients. I can't say that for sure. Perhaps he just feels sorry for me?
I didn't borrow any money from him and I don't think I could. And it did make me feel a little weird, but it also was kinda nice - though it just strengthens my image of him as father-figure. Sigh...
P
Posted by dragonfly25 on January 18, 2004, at 20:08:29
In reply to Re: being Special » dragonfly25, posted by Karen_kay on January 18, 2004, at 12:11:35
Hi Karen
I am curious, is his wife pretty?
you know what....i don't know about that name thing, if you always know someone by the first name then whatever, if it changes halfway through well thats a bit weird. so i would say this is just my issue. so ignore me and my anal issues :)
i honestly don't think there is a problem between you and your therapist. as i said before you guys sound like you have a great relationship. and sometimes boundries have to be bvroken to make progress (did i just say that? :) i always speak so pro-boundry) but seriously, that is how i made progress with mine a few years ago. he sounds like yours. what ever works. i think it is a relationship that is great to have and i wouldn't worry about it, it is natural for ANYONE to have more favored feelings to some. he is not perfect, and some therapists hate their patients, i asked my doc about this- eventually they usually pass them on. the one who are favored usually know it, and i don't think that is a boundry violation, it is just a better 'connection' (btw, i am not saying they care any less for other patients)
so the point i was trying to make is if it is working, GREAT! don't try to change it. i think it is awsome you have made such progress!
out of curiousity, how long has he been practicing, this isn't a question about competency, rather an age thing. i have never come accross a therapist younger than...maybe 30. so in my mind i have always thought of them as older. anyone know how young can you start practicing?
Posted by Karen_kay on January 18, 2004, at 21:15:33
In reply to Re: being Special » Karen_kay, posted by dragonfly25 on January 18, 2004, at 20:08:29
Well, about his wife.... She seems rather drab and boring and not very pretty to me. She picture I saw (well, the first picture, as I've seen two now) was in her wedding gown (making things 20 times worse, since it seems to be such an intimate moment) and the dress was very poofy, her hair well, I just don't want to be disrespectful...I do want to be disrespectful as I don't think I like her because she doesn't let him get enough sleep (like that's her fault???) but I'm choosing to step away with what little dignity I still have(??????)... I did find a different picture of her and her hair wasn't as poofy but she just seemed rather "Sarah Plain and Tall", you know? No makeup, well just nothing stood out about her.
I know that he just recently moved here, as in last year to start practicing. And he just took some big test???? Does anyone have a clue what I'm talking about?? Maybe I'll ask him. But he's very new at this. So we seem to match up perfectly, as I'm very new at this as well :) And I have a preference for "rookies."
But it really great to have everyone else here to come back to and question as well. So, I ask him question after question. Then I rush home and ask you guys/gals question after question about his response. Then I go in and requestion him about his response. Shew! This is a never-ending process! I agree with the poster who said that you need therapy to cope with therapy. Or maybe I just need 2 sessions a week. One session for questions and one session for my issues! That's a logical solution, right?
I can't help wondering though, with my incessant questions am I really solving things (because they truly do help solve issues) or am I avoiding the hard things that I need to deal with. Typically, we spend half the session dealing with my "father issues" and then the rest of the time is "fun time" as I call it. Is this a good balance? It helps to keep me sane at least.
Posted by dragonfly25 on January 18, 2004, at 21:27:45
In reply to Re: being Special » dragonfly25, posted by Karen_kay on January 18, 2004, at 21:15:33
i don't know what that test would be??
but i agree with that 2 sessions a week idea, i always waste time having "fun" asking questions etc. i have a hard time being serious. i never get into anything deep. what a waste, when i think about it. the balance of both is good, if my T didn't have a sense of humor, well i don't know what id do.
therapy to deal with therapy- hilarious!! so true!
Posted by All Done on January 18, 2004, at 23:39:05
In reply to Re: being Special » All Done, posted by crushedout on January 18, 2004, at 11:39:31
> (Just to clarify, by "special," I didn't mean
> special in the sense that we're all unique and have different needs, etc. I meant "special" in the sense of being a favorite. In other words, when they see us as *more* "special" than other clients. And as being able to treat us in ways that they wouldn't treat anyone else, or that aren't terribly kosher (such as over-disclosing to us).)I think I got what you were saying when using the term "special", but I believe there's a fine line between finding the specialness in each client and thinking of the client as special. Once the therapist finds the client's individual specialness, I think it would be difficult not to think about which client's specialness is preferred. That being said, it is the therapist's responsibility to keep the "favoritism" under wraps so as to avoid inappropriately crossing boundaries. But I ramble. (I think I'm even starting to confuse myself. : ))
Posted by crushedout on January 18, 2004, at 23:44:23
In reply to Re: being Special » crushedout, posted by All Done on January 18, 2004, at 23:39:05
> I think I got what you were saying when using the term "special", but I believe there's a fine line between finding the specialness in each client and thinking of the client as special. Once the therapist finds the client's individual specialness, I think it would be difficult not to think about which client's specialness is preferred. That being said, it is the therapist's responsibility to keep the "favoritism" under wraps so as to avoid inappropriately crossing boundaries. But I ramble. (I think I'm even starting to confuse myself. : ))
I think if a therapist is genuine, her "favoritism" will shine through, even if the T never explicitly admits her feelings for the client. I, for one, feel it with my T even though she's never said it. And it messes with my head. In other words, I don't think it's so simple to keep it under wraps.
Posted by Rigby on January 19, 2004, at 0:59:15
In reply to Re: being Special » All Done, posted by crushedout on January 18, 2004, at 23:44:23
Interesting topic. And yeah, I agree--favoritism should be kept under wraps no matter how strident the client's cries are to know that they are favored or special.
My therapist literally said to me in the middle of a conversation about me wanting or expecting her to make exceptions for me, "Don't you see?" I asked, "What?" "That you're special? Your specialness is obvious." She said it with this tone like was I blind or something. She said she had no other relationship like this with any other patient--nothing so close.
She told me that I have the ability to connect extremely intensely with people--herself included. She said I have a gift somehow of being able to draw people in. I asked her how she could make an objective generalization such as this given that she had said that she felt drawn to me and was hence no longer objective. She said that that's why she sees a therapist--so that she stays on track and so her stuff won't get in the way of my therapy.
Then she told me she'd become too involved with me and that she needed to step away to be of help to me.
And that's what she did. The boundaries got firmer. And firmer. And firmer.
Through the process of working to become her "favorite," I learned that, at least for me, being favorite meant being able to control. So I seduced her to become favored and to control her.
In therapy you, or at least I, have felt very out of control. What better way to regain control than to seduce the therapist? I wasn't conscious at the time but I think I was gaming things pretty hard to fascinate her, to reel her in, to get her to get lost in me.
And it worked just like it has in the past for me. She got kinda freaked, as mentioned, and realized she needed to get her stuff together. But alas, I'd "won"--I'd messed her up, gotten her confused, gotten her to feel vulnerable--evened the score. Victory?
Not really. I mean was this a good use of my money and if not, who's the fool here? I mean how did this whole seduction benefit me if I wasn't, (sorry to be crude here) gonna get laid out of it?
The benefit came in the form of an insight I gained about how I've used seduction to control situations and how I've gotten fairly good at it. I felt kinda crappy in the end about it actually. I felt like my therapist was only human and I'd gotten to her vulnerabilities. I felt a bit like a predator. Lesson (big lesson) learned.
Currently I do not feel special or not special. She gives no indication one way or another. But that's good. Because the focus isn't on whether or not I'm special to *her*, it's about helping *me.*
So I guess going through the Special Circuit I'd have to say, at least for me, that a good therapist probably shouldn't show his or her cards one way or another. Even if you're the most special person they've ever met. If being special or rather, being singled out as favorite, is a big deal to you (it has been to me) it's most important than to use the process to figure out why it's an issue.
I think we need therapists who have the insight, intelligence and backbone to respond appropriately to our various forms of crying out for them. They should not get sucked into our stuff but rather, point our stuff out to us. Having said this though, I think the best therapsits walk a line between reaching far into a patient's head and heart to understand the landscape. But, and here's the trick, they don't go too far so as to lose their own objectivity and ability to help. My guess is that some of the best therapists take the risk and slip up.
I would like to think my therapist is an example of someone who got a little lost trying to help. Time will tell, I think, if that's the case.
> > I think I got what you were saying when using the term "special", but I believe there's a fine line between finding the specialness in each client and thinking of the client as special. Once the therapist finds the client's individual specialness, I think it would be difficult not to think about which client's specialness is preferred. That being said, it is the therapist's responsibility to keep the "favoritism" under wraps so as to avoid inappropriately crossing boundaries. But I ramble. (I think I'm even starting to confuse myself. : ))
>
> I think if a therapist is genuine, her "favoritism" will shine through, even if the T never explicitly admits her feelings for the client. I, for one, feel it with my T even though she's never said it. And it messes with my head. In other words, I don't think it's so simple to keep it under wraps.
Posted by All Done on January 19, 2004, at 1:06:02
In reply to Re: being Special » All Done, posted by Karen_kay on January 18, 2004, at 12:23:26
> That goes back to the conversation I had with my therapist about feelings (from the therapist) getting in the way of therapy. I think when I typed that out, it was confused with the previous conversation.
> He said that he is able to seperate his feelings to a certain extent from the therapy process. I know that I have favorites. I have my favorite therapist, niece, sister, student when I taught for a class, ect. The point is to not let it show. But therapists undergo training, I would assume, to help them deal with this type of thing. Maybe it wouldn't hurt the client a bit to feel that he/she is the favorite? What do you think? I mean if the client has selfesteem issues or feelings of never being good enough, wouldn't it be a good thing to feel as though she is her therapist's favorite client? Now, even if she is not, just to help boost her ego? I'm not a therapist, probably a good thing mind you, but if the client is struggling with either self esteem issues or especially troubles opening up or trusting the therapist, wouldn't it aid in developing the relationship if the therapist made her think she was special to him in some way (as in one of his favorite clients)?
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> Just because he says it, doesn't make it true, BTW. I don't always believe everything he says. I trust him,but I don't take his word as law :) He is a therapist and I tend to think there's some type of motive behind every word that comes spewing out of his cute little mouth. I'm also a skeptic if you hadn't noticed....
What thought provoking questions, Karen…After reading your post, the first thing I did was ask myself what I would feel if my therapist told me I was his favorite (not out of the realm of possibility, you know, as I do *not* bore him : ).) First and foremost, I wouldn’t believe him. Somewhat like you, I also believe there is always more to what he says – a “real” reason he says what he does. (I have a very manipulative mom, though. I suppose that has a lot to do with it. Hmm, topic for next week’s session…)
Then, I got sidetracked and thought - isn’t therapy supposed to, in part, be about getting what we didn’t get as infants, children, and adolescents and learning how to get that as adults from within ourselves? So, for people with self-esteem issues, I do believe they need to learn that they are special. Is the best method to have the therapist *tell* the client he or she is special or the therapist’s favorite? Now, I can only speak of my limited experience with therapy and my therapist, but I know he has ways of making me feel what I need to feel without directly saying the exact words. I think this might be more effective that just saying something to me. Other people in my life have tried that already and I just distrust their motives and assume they’re trying to appease me. For example, if someone tells you you’re pretty, you can choose to believe it or not. But if someone were to actively flirt with you, wouldn’t you then *know* that they find you attractive? (See my new thread on flirting in therapy : ).) If my therapist can help me to feel something (and recognize it as a good feeling), I would give it much more credibility than if he simply told me something. I would learn from it.
Hmm. I don’t know that I answered any of your questions, but there you go.
Posted by crushedout on January 19, 2004, at 9:30:25
In reply to Having Gone The Special Circuit..., posted by Rigby on January 19, 2004, at 0:59:15
I love your posts, Rigby.I'm also finding myself playing the devil's advocate a lot with everyone on this topic lately. In reading this post, I was thinking, well, if your therapist had never told you how special you were, you might not have addressed your seductive/controlling/need to be special thing as quickly (or at all?). So, sometimes I think it's better that Ts are genuine and honest about their reactions to us. Maybe all the time in fact.
I'm really just trying to figure this out. I'm not sure what I think.
> Interesting topic. And yeah, I agree--favoritism should be kept under wraps no matter how strident the client's cries are to know that they are favored or special.
>
> My therapist literally said to me in the middle of a conversation about me wanting or expecting her to make exceptions for me, "Don't you see?" I asked, "What?" "That you're special? Your specialness is obvious." She said it with this tone like was I blind or something. She said she had no other relationship like this with any other patient--nothing so close.
>
> She told me that I have the ability to connect extremely intensely with people--herself included. She said I have a gift somehow of being able to draw people in. I asked her how she could make an objective generalization such as this given that she had said that she felt drawn to me and was hence no longer objective. She said that that's why she sees a therapist--so that she stays on track and so her stuff won't get in the way of my therapy.
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> Then she told me she'd become too involved with me and that she needed to step away to be of help to me.
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> And that's what she did. The boundaries got firmer. And firmer. And firmer.
>
> Through the process of working to become her "favorite," I learned that, at least for me, being favorite meant being able to control. So I seduced her to become favored and to control her.
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> In therapy you, or at least I, have felt very out of control. What better way to regain control than to seduce the therapist? I wasn't conscious at the time but I think I was gaming things pretty hard to fascinate her, to reel her in, to get her to get lost in me.
>
> And it worked just like it has in the past for me. She got kinda freaked, as mentioned, and realized she needed to get her stuff together. But alas, I'd "won"--I'd messed her up, gotten her confused, gotten her to feel vulnerable--evened the score. Victory?
>
> Not really. I mean was this a good use of my money and if not, who's the fool here? I mean how did this whole seduction benefit me if I wasn't, (sorry to be crude here) gonna get laid out of it?
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> The benefit came in the form of an insight I gained about how I've used seduction to control situations and how I've gotten fairly good at it. I felt kinda crappy in the end about it actually. I felt like my therapist was only human and I'd gotten to her vulnerabilities. I felt a bit like a predator. Lesson (big lesson) learned.
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> Currently I do not feel special or not special. She gives no indication one way or another. But that's good. Because the focus isn't on whether or not I'm special to *her*, it's about helping *me.*
>
> So I guess going through the Special Circuit I'd have to say, at least for me, that a good therapist probably shouldn't show his or her cards one way or another. Even if you're the most special person they've ever met. If being special or rather, being singled out as favorite, is a big deal to you (it has been to me) it's most important than to use the process to figure out why it's an issue.
>
> I think we need therapists who have the insight, intelligence and backbone to respond appropriately to our various forms of crying out for them. They should not get sucked into our stuff but rather, point our stuff out to us. Having said this though, I think the best therapsits walk a line between reaching far into a patient's head and heart to understand the landscape. But, and here's the trick, they don't go too far so as to lose their own objectivity and ability to help. My guess is that some of the best therapists take the risk and slip up.
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> I would like to think my therapist is an example of someone who got a little lost trying to help. Time will tell, I think, if that's the case.
>
> > > I think I got what you were saying when using the term "special", but I believe there's a fine line between finding the specialness in each client and thinking of the client as special. Once the therapist finds the client's individual specialness, I think it would be difficult not to think about which client's specialness is preferred. That being said, it is the therapist's responsibility to keep the "favoritism" under wraps so as to avoid inappropriately crossing boundaries. But I ramble. (I think I'm even starting to confuse myself. : ))
> >
> > I think if a therapist is genuine, her "favoritism" will shine through, even if the T never explicitly admits her feelings for the client. I, for one, feel it with my T even though she's never said it. And it messes with my head. In other words, I don't think it's so simple to keep it under wraps.
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>
Posted by Karen_kay on January 19, 2004, at 11:58:08
In reply to Re: being Special » Karen_kay, posted by All Done on January 19, 2004, at 1:06:02
The thing is when I kept badgering him to tell me I was his favorite client, he became very frustrated. Actually at our last session, he started on his "bit" about how people don't make you feel anything you choose to feel things. I countered with, "Well, don't I make you frustrated sometimes?" to which he immediately answered, "YES!" And I grinned, knowing full well he would fall into that trap. I love to contradict him, rather make him contradict himself :) It's the highlight of my day!
But, when I was badgering him to tell me I was his favorite client, he wouldn't tell me. He was very frustrated. He kept saying, "Why can't we just move past this? Why is it so important for you to be my favorite client? Why won't you just let this go?" So I did. But, when he actually said it, I really wasn't expecting it. I hadn't asked him about it in quite some time. And I really didn't care. I honestly think it just slipped out.
But, he does make me feel like I'm special but he usually says it. Little things like offering me water, saying that I'm the type of person he'd hang out with in real life, complimenting me and saying he's proud of me and the work I've accomplished (not only in therapy but in school as well).
I agree that therapy is about getting the things that you didn't get as a child. And I was quite lacking in support and nurturing. I honestly feel that my self esteem has improved. In fact, I know I'm quite attractive. So what if he flirted a little to get me to feel that way. Boundaries, schmoundaries.... If an intelligent, handsome man who knows some of my deepest, darkest secrets says I'm beautiful (whether or not he thinks it's true), maybe others will too, right? I mean, I am the world's biggest (mind you not fattest) skeptic and if I believe it, take it as law!This just has me wondering, does he tell all of his other clients they are beautiful? I know he flirts with other clients, he told me that. I'm OK with that, I suppose. But, does he tell others that they are his favorite as well. Oh well, I guess in a way, he's an actor anyway. He plays the part of a caring individual whose only purpose is to look after my needs. And you know what? It seems to be working at this point. I see results. I'm going to quit questioning him (YEAH RIGHT! How many times have I said that???)... I'm not going to quit questioning him. I will still keep my eyes open, but his approach is working. If he gets to close, I'll smack his hand, but I'm still going to shake my butt every time he's walking behind me and hope he's looking. I do have a nice butt you know.. And I don't need him to tell me that! :)
Posted by Rigby on January 19, 2004, at 19:42:40
In reply to Re: Having Gone The Special Circuit... » Rigby, posted by crushedout on January 19, 2004, at 9:30:25
Thanks.
> I love your posts, Rigby.I am wondering if your some of your stuff (my stuff, everyone's obsessive stuff) around what our therapist thinks of us, whether or not she feels the same way, etc. may be a big old smoke screen and distraction.
I'm amazed at the huge obstacles I could and can put into the process so that I do not have to deal with some very tough stuff. Nothing conscious. But how much easier to work on achieving mutual attraction with my therapist than to focus on abuse that predates my ability to speak.
Back to the point about how her saying something benefited me. I guess it's hard to say how it would have gone had my therapist not confessed her feelings. Heck, maybe it's best to think it was all for the good: "For of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these: ‘It might have been.’"
But being told that I was special and, in a sense because of this she needed to "leave" hurt like heck. It still does. I chalk most everything up to transference but that doesn't minimize its significance. I needed (and probably still need) someone to follow me into some fairly dark places; I don't think she could handle going in and still stay grounded.
She took some risks with me. Maybe enough. Maybe not. Maybe she's skilled enough. Maybe not. Time will tell how this one plays out.
> I'm also finding myself playing the devil's advocate a lot with everyone on this topic lately. In reading this post, I was thinking, well, if your therapist had never told you how special you were, you might not have addressed your seductive/controlling/need to be special thing as quickly (or at all?). So, sometimes I think it's better that Ts are genuine and honest about their reactions to us. Maybe all the time in fact.
This is the end of the thread.
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